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I've never understood how people can remember something completely different from the way it happened...
Kiko Alonso played great last year, he is also THE reason Hoyer got hurt.
Did he slide a bit awkwardly? Yeah, but you don't tear multiple ligaments JUST from tucking your leg under yourself wrong. Add another 200+ pound human landing on you is when stuff goes wrong..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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lecharles bently tore his patella tendon on the first 11 on 11 drill of a camp, without being touched.
opening day for the angels this year, one of their coaches broke his leg by kneeling at homeplate...
of course the Holy Hoyer could not have possibly gotten injured from sliding the wrong way, though....
im not saying alonso had nothing to do with it, just pointing out more absurdities from the Hoyer wagon.
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Right. You clearly don't have a biased opinion about Hoyer...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb. 
Don't shoot the messenger..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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i like hoyer lol. i just dont blame a defender 100%, when it was the QB who who tucked his leg wrong, didnt slide when he should have, and when he did chooses to slide in a way that doesnt make it so the defense cant hit him.
to say it was alanso who caused the injury is silly. brb running in to a brick wall head first, then blaming the bricks for giving me a concussion......... makes sense.
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Just one more second or two for him to get his leg in a better position and then it would have just been someone landing on him, instead of someone landing on him in an awkward position that caused him to tear his ACL.
The point where our season was like a #2 being flushed down the toilet and etc, right there in that pic...
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You don't blame a defender... for hitting a sliding QB?
Ok.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I don't blame the defender for that injury.
While Hoyer probably gets his bell rung by the defender, the leg injury was all on Hoyer.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Hoyer is now apparently the best QB, Head Coach, and Cheerleader we have ever had in cleveland.
"Hoyer prepared the team to win!"
im done with this discussion, things are getting ridiculous...
When you all are done with all the hyperbole, perhaps you can read/re-read ddubia's, which I happen to think is SPOT on.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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I don't blame the defender for that injury.
While Hoyer probably gets his bell rung by the defender, the leg injury was all on Hoyer.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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again what was the penalty alonzo received for that hit?
ohh wait he didnt receive one, because the QB didnt simply slide how is is supposed to, and thus was eligible to get hit.
he pushed for the extra yards rather than simply getting down and protecting himself and living for another play. sorry but thats on hoyer.
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I said before people can have a difference of opinion...I explained mine.
I'm still just getting the debate of:
pfft!
Uh-Uh
That's dumb, silly, can you believe he said that.
I put it all out there I stated how I to was it was 2-0 then 2.25 games then I started looking into it and how different the team was with the same coaches doing the game plan. Why did the team do so well...or so bad with the only variable as Hoyer. I stated maybe he should get more credit to the 3-0 then people are willing to get as in - Preparation and the mental aspect of the game.
I asked some simple questions I still don't see any responses except the above.
Says a lot about the self proclaimed experts of which you present yourself with knowledge about the game.
It is so ridiculous to not even discuss it?
If anyone who knows me if its not an OL man I don't "Love individual players"
Oh well - guess I got to dummy down my football. 
Hey HOYER REAL GOOD no HAPPY FEET!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Why did the team do so well...or so bad with the only variable as Hoyer. I stated maybe he should get more credit to the 3-0 then people are willing to get as in - Preparation and the mental aspect of the game.
yeah i just dont have the patience for arguing on the speculation that the back up QB "prepared" the team. To me thats ridiculous and an unsubstantiated claim.
Im not over here arguing "well we lost the rest of the games because its my believe that hoyer, after suffering an injury, decided to try his hands at being a masseur, and creeped out the rest of the team because he likely was massaging them during team meeting after that, and it just weirded out the chemistry of the team."
unless you can disprove that, it must be true.
is that an absurd way of making my point? sure, but my point remains. The hoyer camp wants to prop the guy up as if he was giving the team the game plan week 2 3 and 4. i dont buy that, theres nothign to suggest it, yet people spew it over and over, and unless i have a notarized statement from the coaching staff that he wasnt doing that-- you guys will pretend its factual.
Hoyer was the ONLY difference? Im sure the best WR in the NFL last year will have something to say about that.
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Hoyer was dramatically more effective at Running the game plan, and the entire team knew it. He did not design it, but he implemented it much better.
Did he "prepare the team" in the sense of creating the offensive strategy? No. But in the sense of every player believing it could be done, YES, he DID "prepare the team to win".
IMO the entire team KNEW they had a chance to win with him in the game, but with BeWe, they were doomed unless a whole series of miracles happened.
I do not understand how anyone who watched the games could not see that.
Is he a future HOF'er? Probably not, but is there any doubt at all about the other QB's? Is BeWe or Jason Campbell a "probably not"? Or a "NWIH ! "?
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I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb.
Only because you can't accept that Couch was better.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I do not understand how anyone who watched the games could not see that.
I think it was pretty clear cut. The offense before hand and thereafter Hoyer's presence was virtually a car running on four flat tires. You could read it in the eyes, body reactions and etc by the players both offensively and defensively. It's debatable what our record "could" have been if he hadn't got injured.
You said it well, if he a HOF? Probably not, but he can play good and consistently, why wouldn't anyone be happy with that? With the targets he has at his disposal, he doesn't have to be a HOF. He just has to be opposite of what Weeden is/was and etc.
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and were back to discussing points that cannot be disproven because they are unsubstantiated...
sorry i just cannot subscribe to the team"believing they could win" because of brian hoyer. the dude came in as a career backup with what 3 games? We just traded away our "franchise RB," yet the team was all of a sudden uplifted by this dude and believed they could and would win.
he threw 3 INTs and 3 TDs in the first game. Without the help of some special teams long shot plays working out, we lose. yet all of a sudden the team is believing in him, and themselves, all because of his miraculous play...
why is it that the team played well because of hoyer, rather than hoyer played well because the team was playing well? Thats my problem with the wishy washy "he elevated the team" arguments. Give me some proof other than his mediocre play "uplifting everybody," and theres a discussion worth having. but if were in "even though i have nothign to support my argument, i believe this is the case."
hoyer played a mediocre at best game, against a beat up defense, and barely squeaked by with a win. The second game he played pretty well, again against a crap defense. This all happened right as gordon came back. he then proceeded to tear his acl by not sliding soon enough. 2 games, 2 crap defenses, mediocre stats but he did show poise when it counted and we pulled off 2 wins.
im not seeing how that is anything more spectacular than all of the other flash in the pan backups who flourished for a whopping 2 games while teams had no tape on them.
im not saying the guy can never be any good, im just saying its a bit delusional for people to act as if theres even a coin flip of a chance that he pans at as anything more than a backup who had a couple wins before getting knocked back out of the starter role. im not arguing he has no shot-- im arguing the notion he is solely responsible for uplifting a team and carrying them to 2 wins.
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You said it well, if he a HOF? Probably not, but he can play good and consistently, why wouldn't anyone be happy with that?
and here in lies my problem with the hoyer camp.
Two games is some how a large enough sample to say "he can play good consistently."
honestly, this is 98% of my problem here. the dude has freaking 192 pass attempts in this league. stop saying you know he can do anything consistently. if this logic were true, matt cassell would be a good QB.
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Quote:
You said it well, if he a HOF? Probably not, but he can play good and consistently, why wouldn't anyone be happy with that?
and here in lies my problem with the hoyer camp.
Two games is some how a large enough sample to say "he can play good consistently."
honestly, this is 98% of my problem here. the dude has freaking 192 pass attempts in this league. stop saying you know he can do anything consistently. if this logic were true, matt cassell would be a good QB.
Well, he's played more games in the NFL than any soon-to-be-drafted rookie, right? Fact is it'll be a true unknown either way the pay is sliced. No one that I've seen is suggesting that by his two game start season, that he's the answer. Since my comment to one you quoted started with the theoretical talk about him being a HOF, I assumed the rest would have been interpreted as theoretical too. I've lobbied for Bridgewater and true competition in camp/practice before any starter is declared.
Facts are facts though, this team operated at it's peak when Brian was in there as opposed to when he wasn't.
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My take on Hoyer:
Whatever the Browns brass choose to do at QB will be fine with me; they know what's best for the team waaaay more than I.
Having said that, I'm very interested in seeing Brian play again this year... precisely because of the small sample size.
Those wins we had with him under center:
maybe it was just dumb luck
maybe he did elevate the team with his presence
maybe it was the quality of opposition
maybe we won because teams didn't have much tape on him
maybe it was the coaching staff rallying the team after the TRich trade
maybe it was the team rallying to help its backup QB
maybe it was all, some, or none of the above.
My point: he's an intriguing figure because we saw so little of him last year. If he'd played out the season, there'd be much less speculation regarding his skill set.
As a fan, I want to see him play again, just to satisfy my curiosity. I remember seeing our O operate with much more crispness, pace and tempo with him in there. As a fan, I remember seeing 'bad plays' as minor setbacks, and not devastating 'game-enders.' I watched the next play with anticipation instead of a sense of dread. As a fan, I felt as though NO GAME was unwinnable. For those 3 games, the Browns looked like a legitimate NFL team. The clunky, lurching, out-of-sync O was much less visible. I 'lost that lovin' feeling' almost immediately after he went down.
These are the sentiments of a fan. I can't speak for the players on the team; I wasn't in the locker room to hear exactly how they felt about playing with any of our QB's. However- I'm pretty sure I saw a total 'personality shift' in the Browns after that Buffalo game... and it wasn't for the better. It really did appear to me that the players felt the same as this fan.*
If the FO chooses to place someone else under C, it won't kill me. I'm not married to the guy. I will, however have a hard time shaking that "what if?" feeling, simply because I was teased so well last year.
I'm looking forward to seeing if he can earn the starting spot this Summer. If so, I'll have my microscope out when the games begin in earnest.
Like I said: intriguing character/situation.
.02
*If the players really DID suffer the same sense of deflation I did, that would imply a lack of mental/professional 'toughness,' as some in here have mentioned. If so, that needs to stop immediately. A team that quits on itself deserves neither mercy from other teams nor support from fans.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quote:
Hoyer was dramatically more effective at Running the game plan, and the entire team knew it. He did not design it, but he implemented it much better.
Nelson...what you, EO and others are trying to explain is the "it" thing. It really is hard to explain and it's obviously just as hard for some to understand what the "it" thing is.
During those two full games when Hoyer started, I saw "it" and felt "it". I'm not even going to try to explain the "it thing" to others, so don't even ask. I do understand what EO and Nelson are attempting to explain.
Again, it is the hardest damn thing to define or explain...it's a sense, a feeling, an emotion some feel when they watched Hoyer play. Last season, when Hoyer started, the offense just seemed to click.
I'm hoping that Hoyer can repeat the type of performance he briefly turned in last season.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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"well we lost the rest of the games because its my believe that hoyer, after suffering an injury, decided to try his hands at being a masseur, and creeped out the rest of the team because he likely was massaging them during team meeting after that, and it just weirded out the chemistry of the team."
unless you can disprove that, it must be true.
Thank you for the insults and the total none football discussion.
You showed me. Then you all got the balls to state my discussion as absurd.
There is one FACTION here that are just POSTING and stating that it MUST BE TRUE. that would be you and the other merry men...My goodness where did I say its my way or the highway???
I'm done with the Mylans....
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The problem with the "It" thing is... Colt McCoy had the "It" thing for a couple games too...
I think it comes down to the draft honestly. Depending on which QB we come away with will determine if Hoyer is the starter or not.
Hopefully not in a "give him the job" type of way either, if Russel Wislon can earn the job as a 3rd round pick over a high priced FA... Then dangit give everyone a shot...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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yeah i just dont have the patience for arguing on the speculation that the back up QB "prepared" the team. To me thats ridiculous and an unsubstantiated claim.
What do you claim the QB does, any QB, during the week when they're preparing for and practicing the game plan?
#gmstrong
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yeah i just dont have the patience for arguing on the speculation that the back up QB "prepared" the team. To me thats ridiculous and an unsubstantiated claim.
What do you claim the QB does, any QB, during the week when they're preparing for and practicing the game plan?
I assume it has something to do with whipped cream bikinis..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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#gmstrong
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The QB prepares to do "his job" as is laid out and schemed by the coaching staff.
The coaches do the coaching, preparing and game planning. The players, under the coaching staffs guidance, prepare to do their individual jobs.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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j/c
I'll try this again because I really think unless we can quantify what our position is we will all just keep going back and forth trying to defend adjectives.
IF you have been involved in this Hoyer debate then have some balls and respond to this question:
What % chance does Hoyer have of becoming "the guy" for us? This means he's our starting QB for the foreseeable future and not just a transition QB until our rookie gets up to speed.
I'll go first (again). I put his odds at 20%.
Now you can see by the odds I'm using that I think Hoyer has a real shot to be our guy... it's just a long-shot. I hope he can pull it off. That would be awesome.
What do you think?
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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...
I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...
I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...
Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.
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Don't worry Ddubbia don't bother but TY...the Game preparing experts will not bend an ounce...It sort of funny on all the quotes on who does what...after all we are talking about having experience on this matter from High school.
What is funny is that I'll be accused of being condescending and Willing my opinion on people as it has been inferred all over this thread. Yet there is one faction in this cough:: Cough:: discussion that refuses to acknowledge a possible opposite side to their opinion.
Find The Winning Edge - now if you read that book by Bill Walsh and it definitely advises the opposite of what I think happened at least to some degree to give Hoyer SOME CREDIT for the win. I will bow down. But I read topped sentences saying its absurd to imply what I did. I have now idea what everyone is basing it on. ???
I'm done with this thread...for the 3rd or 4th time...lol 
Last edited by eotab; 04/03/14 01:33 PM.
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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...
I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...
Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.
So what are Vegas' odds on Hoyer becoming "The Guy"?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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There is a huge difference between "The Guy" and good staring quarterback, Hoyer has yet to achieve either.
GO BROWNS!
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So the QB makes the play book? He decides what the scheme is going to be?
It's not like they tell the QB, "Okay, here's the play book. You work the guys out, tell them what to do, what they're doing wrong and critique them. We're going to take the day off and play golf."
The coaches coach and the players play. Hoyer hadn't started a game for the Browns. He was busy focusing on doing his job, not coaching or doing the game planning.
If the QB is the one preparing the team, why even bother having coaches except to pick the starting QB on O and coach the D? Or is there a D player that does the coaches job too?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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j/c
I totally get where Tab and others are coming from. They just aren't saying it well. And I do agree with some of it. I think Hoyer has "it" as well. I've always thought that. Love the kid and he did look the part when he got his shot. The interviews of players once Hoyer came in were telling. This is why I think there is around a 20% chance he can be our franchise QB for the next few years.
BUT
None of that directly "won" the BUF game. Just can't give Hoyer credit for a game where he went 2/4 for 25 yards... barely played. Just can't do it and can't wrap my head around anyone trying to do it. Seems like an attempt to pump up Hoyer artificially and to be honest... no one needs to do that! Let's call it what it is.
Hoyer has "it" but avg QB skills. He has a shot at being our guy and we'd ALL love that to be the case BUT it's a long-shot.
Hoping for the best but not going to be delusional about it. I've seen this story play out way too often and it has yet to end well.
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Quote:
Quote:
Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...
I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...
Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.
You ask a question and when you don't get an answer you like, you laugh...LOL that's a good one.
There isn't anything wrong with calling it a Pass/Fail kinda thing..
Myself, I have no idea how to come up with Odds in any meaningful way, so here's my guess..
50% chance of being reasonably successful.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...
I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...
Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.
You ask a question and when you don't get an answer you like, you laugh...LOL that's a good one.
There isn't anything wrong with calling it a Pass/Fail kinda thing..
Myself, I have no idea how to come up with Odds in any meaningful way, so here's my guess..
50% chance of being reasonably successful.
Maybe I misread his response but I don't think he was saying there was a 50% chance. I think he was saying either he makes it or he doesn't so by definition it's a 50/50 shot. That is just wrong and leads me to believe he doesn't understand the concept of probabilities at all.
Saying there's a 50% chance of success is a perfectly reasonable response... that wasn't his response though. Not how I read it. If so, why question what my 20% chance even meant?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
So the QB makes the play book? He decides what the scheme is going to be? Why do you all almost to a man come up with the Ridiculous statements and apply that to my thought process.
Shows me you don't really have a leg to stand on.
But here I'll help. "Execution" you missing that part of what I'm saying. Where remotely do I imply he makes the play book...where? Where do I state the he decides on what the scheme is going to be?
Do you really wish for me to explain this? Again its putting the players of the team in the right place...No do it that way. No the timing of that route its better if you simulate an FADE route before you break in on your slant. Little nuances like that to prepare the team to EXECUTE THE FREAKING GAME PLAN. and I just made one reference of HOW the QB works in preparation There are 1,000 more.
But you all know more so please don't educate yourselfs and just continue to make up BS statements like the above and glom it as that is what I'm saying. I do speak english and I have spelled some of the stuff out. How you all come up with this junk is amazing.
Now I'll pull an Obama....I'm really, really done with this thread - don't make me mad...lol
Chow
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,874
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,874 |
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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...
I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...
Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.
You ask a question and when you don't get an answer you like, you laugh...LOL that's a good one.
There isn't anything wrong with calling it a Pass/Fail kinda thing..
Myself, I have no idea how to come up with Odds in any meaningful way, so here's my guess..
50% chance of being reasonably successful.
Maybe I misread his response but I don't think he was saying there was a 50% chance. I think he was saying either he makes it or he doesn't so by definition it's a 50/50 shot. That is just wrong and leads me to believe he doesn't understand the concept of probabilities at all.
Saying there's a 50% chance of success is a perfectly reasonable response... that wasn't his response though. Not how I read it. If so, why question what my 20% chance even meant?
Word games.. he's saying the same thing as me. But my comments are ok, his aren't.. OK
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
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IF you have been involved in this Hoyer debate then have some balls and respond to this question:
What % chance does Hoyer have of becoming "the guy" for us? This means he's our starting QB for the foreseeable future and not just a transition QB until our rookie gets up to speed.
I'll give him about the same chance that you do. Maybe 20%.
The Browns are looking for a franchise QB and it likely doesn't include an older, career backup who has less than a half-season of experience.
But that hasn't been the topic of discussion. At least not mine. My claim is that he elevated the play of the team due to his confidence, desire to win and play on the field.
Now I'll ask you a few questions, you don't have to answer:
• Are you going to say that during his first two games you didn't see a Browns team who was looking like they were coming together?
• Can you admit that you were hoping for more of the same in his second start and you got it as the Browns won again?
• Can you also admit that the team looked exciting and you felt like they may be on a roll?
• Can you further admit that you were looking forward to that Bills game because for once in so many years the games were exciting and you were anxious to see if we could keep it up?
• Can you admit that you went into the Bills game with great hopes and then felt the air go out of your balloon when Hoyer got injured because you knew in your heart that we were headed for more of the same 'ol, same 'ol from Weeden?
That's what I'm talking about. We had a short run of two games in that for once we looked like a team on the rise. It carried over to the next game but was foiled by Hoyer's injury. Sure, we won that Bills game. But what confidence did you have after the injury that we would return to that "team on the rise" with Weeden?
We got a teaser from Campbell and should have expected that. He had two really good games, won the second one, and then returned to his career average of 1 TD per game and overall lackluster play.
Weeden and Campbell both lacked an ability to see the field and play with passion. Hoyer had both of those things in spades. That's what makes him so much better than either of the other two. I don't think it's a long stretch to believe he'll still play with passion and learn even better to make better mental decisions.
But franchise QB for the Browns? No. He will make what eotab has been calling a good "Bridge QB". Someone who has enough brains and passion to hold the position until a rookie QB is ready to start.
That may be immediately. But if not, it's good to know that we aren't depending upon a guy the likes of Weeden, or Delhomme or Wallace or Campbell or Fry or Quinn or Dilfer to flounder while we're waiting for the rookie to prepare.
Hoyer at least shows promise. If we choose a franchise QB at #4 we won't need Hoyer to be the guy for long. But he's far more acceptable than any of those guys on that list.
That's what I think.
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer says he'll be ready
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