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Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The QB prepares to do "his job" as is laid out and schemed by the coaching staff.
The coaches do the coaching, preparing and game planning. The players, under the coaching staffs guidance, prepare to do their individual jobs.
• And they do this apart and separate from the rest of the team?
• They don't interact with the rest of the offense helping them understand their responsibilities in practice the way they guide them to their correct positions on the field during the games?
• The QB doesn't help gain confidence between himself and his receivers, OL, TE's and RB's?
• The QB doesn't help develop camaraderie and consistency through practice as well as through the games?
• The QB doesn't gain the confidence from his offense in the way he displays his understanding of the offense during practice? (Think Weeden ever accomplished this?)
So the QB does "his job" in a manner that doesn't influence the rest of the team during practice.
Damn Pit, what you describe doesn't even sound like a team. It sounds like a foursome of golfers.
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Don't worry Ddubbia don't bother but TY...the Game preparing experts will not bend an ounce..
It's a classic example of some folks describing something from the viewpoint of the way they think it is or the way they think it should be, not from any experience in a team situation.
They don't even realize it or they'd be more susceptible to a differing viewpoint.
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The point I'm debating, which maybe I didn't make clear, was the third game where Hoyer only threw 2/4 and we were behind when he was injured.
My point is that if anything deflated the team, it was his injury. I, in no way, believe Hoyer practicing with the team the prior week had anything to do with them going on to win that game.
IF Hoyer taught them so much, that trend would have continued. I don't but into how he helped in the "nuances" of the game which helped so much one week, then the team went on to forget everything that worked the weeks prior.
I also feel people dismiss the competition we faced and the injuries in the Bengals secondary which I believe were a part of the success we saw with Hoyer.
I don't dismiss that Hoyer was much better at his decision making, getting rid of the ball quicker and played at an average NFL QB level. Something we hadn't seen for a very long time.
I just feel people are only looking at one side of things and not taking everything into account in some of their evaluations.
I do believe that after watching such poor QB play for so long, people's opinions have been overinflated.
And I have no love for Weeden, but the fact remains he is the one who gave a performance just well enough to come from behind and win that third game.
It just makes no sense to me to claim Hoyer is the one who built the team up and inspired them on one hand, then claim that after he got hurt, he somehow influenced the team to play better for that one game alone, then forget everything by the next game.
To me, that's like trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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• And they do this apart and separate from the rest of the team?
No, it's done as a team.
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• They don't interact with the rest of the offense helping them understand their responsibilities in practice the way they guide them to their correct positions on the field during the games?
Yes they do. The problem is, that a guy with little starting experience who didn't even join the team until very late in the process, wouldn't in my estimation know enough or have enough credibility within the team to do this.
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• The QB doesn't help gain confidence between himself and his receivers, OL, TE's and RB's?
Over time, yes. But to believe that happened with a QB who had been there for a very short time, was still learning the system himself and had very little credentials rings a little hollow.
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• The QB doesn't help develop camaraderie and consistency through practice as well as through the games?
The key word in your above comment I believe to be "develop". Which once again takes time. Development is not an instant thing.
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• The QB doesn't gain the confidence from his offense in the way he displays his understanding of the offense during practice? (Think Weeden ever accomplished this?)
I don't believe the newest face in the line up did this either. What I think did happen, was the players saw something a little better with Hoyer in practices and fed off of it. Not so much Hoyer himself, but the "anything is better than Weeden" mentality.
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So the QB does "his job" in a manner that doesn't influence the rest of the team during practice.
Damn Pit, what you describe doesn't even sound like a team. It sounds like a foursome of golfers.
Once again, I believe people simply dismiss the fact that Hoyer was "the new kid on the block". That he himself was in part learning the system. As a matter of fact, He was so far behind, that he was just moved up to start over Campbell, who up to that point was the 2nd string QB.
So Hoyer had just learned the system himself. I do believe that he had shown enough in practice to give the team some confidence to play better. But I don't believe he knew the system so well he could critique others and be some on the field leader in that department during practices. The calendar and timeline, IMO, simply didn't allow for that to happen.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Completely disagree but you're clearly dug into this position so moving on...
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My final point would be I guess..
Besides the draft, where we will likely get a QB who may sit or be given a chance to start...
Who out there this offseason could we have gotten that was equal to or better than the chance Hoyer gives us, without giving up assets?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb. 
Only because you can't accept that Couch was better.
LOL....I am a sucker for Couch stuff.....ok,,,,I refrain, he is long gone, but he wasn't better.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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The problem is, that a guy with little starting experience who didn't even join the team until very late in the process, wouldn't in my estimation know enough or have enough credibility within the team to do this.
One could earn credibility in one day based on his play. The next day and the next could solidify it.
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a QB who had been there for a very short time, was still learning the system himself and had very little credentials rings a little hollow.
He was here all though training camp. Had learned how to study as a QB from one of the best. Good play over rides credentials every time.
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...the players saw something a little better with Hoyer in practices and fed off of it. Not so much Hoyer himself, but the "anything is better than Weeden" mentality.
I believe the first sentence. I think Campbell fit the second one.
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He was so far behind, that he was just moved up to start over Campbell, who up to that point was the 2nd string QB.
After he leapfrogged Campbell to start a game I instantly figured Campbell got the #2 spot based on his experience and credentials, not necessarily that he was better than Hoyer. The staff probably thought it would be like dissing Campbell to slot him at #3. But in their minds they thought him as #3 witnessed by the way they chose to not concern themselves with the perception of dissing him but instead played the better player.
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I do believe that he had shown enough in practice to give the team some confidence to play better.
My point all along.
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But I don't believe he knew the system so well he could critique others and be some on the field leader in that department during practices. The calendar and timeline, IMO, simply didn't allow for that to happen.
The QB had better know the system so well that he could do that. It's his job to understand the system better than the skill players and to get them into position as needed. If you don't know the system better than your skill players you bomb ... and we've seen it many times.
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honestly i cant give a %.
my entire argument isnt to say hoyer sucks, or he cant improve or continue to show some success with the browns.
my argument, from the beginning, is that there hasnt been a large enough sample size in order to project something like that. Sorry if that seems like a cop out, but i just think its naive to try and judge a football player based on two games.
when campbell came in, for his 1st two games here, he looked GREAT. way better than hoyer did. But i knew, based off of him having a large enough sample size, that his success those 1st two games probably wouldnt be the norm. Because of his history, i felt i could project he wouldnt carry on with that same success. But just because a guy gets injured before putting in a large enough body of work to actually formulate an educated opinion-- doesnt mean he should get the optimistic projection that after his ACL surgery he will coem abck and play as well as he did for a slip second in history where he played 2 games.
so yeah, i think id be a hypocrite if i projected him based off of what i say is too little to judge some one on. i do hope he heals up and competes at a high level though. im rooting for the kid, and i hope he can hold the rookie to the bench for a season to let him learn-- not because the rookie is struggling, but because i want him to play well.
again, i have nothing against hoyer.
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Who out there this offseason could we have gotten that was equal to or better than the chance Hoyer gives us, without giving up assets?
No one.
We have, in Hoyer, a guy who can come in and win a game or 2, even if he never becomes anything else. He learns the offense quickly, and does things correctly. He is not the most physically talented kid, but he does have the mental side down.
I do worry that his physical limitations will hold him back ..... but what if they don't? What if the offense is tailored to his abilities, like last year's was?
He might be a capable starter, and that's pretty good for a returning starter in this town.
We should, and absolutely must, draft a QB high in this draft. Let Hoyer and the rookie fight it out, and may the best man win.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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honestly i cant give a %.
The reason I offered up a % was based on my belief that the Browns are in hot pursuit of a franchise QB in the draft not by how well I think Hoyer will or will not play.
If the Browns are hot on a franchise QB from the draft, then Hoyer has a very small chance of being the starter long term as the franchise QB.
Sure, anything can happen, but it's most likely Hoyer will start until the rookie is ready and that's about it.
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... it's most likely Hoyer will start until the rookie is ready and that's about it.
You would have to believe that is the plan, unless Hoyer plays absolutely "lights out", or in case of injury...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Completely disagree but you're clearly dug into this position so moving on...
Then we agree to disagree as you are clearly dug into YOUR position.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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honestly i cant give a %.
The reason I offered up a % was based on my belief that the Browns are in hot pursuit of a franchise QB in the draft not by how well I think Hoyer will or will not play.
If the Browns are hot on a franchise QB from the draft, then Hoyer has a very small chance of being the starter long term as the franchise QB.
Sure, anything can happen, but it's most likely Hoyer will start until the rookie is ready and that's about it.
Ohh i'd say i believe we have a 95% chance of taking a QB in the 1st two rounds.
im not confident hoyer would beat out a rookie at camp though, but i mean im comparing an unknown, to a highly coveted unknown (in the rook).
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I'll go first (again). I put his odds at 20%.
Now you can see by the odds I'm using that I think Hoyer has a real shot to be our guy... it's just a long-shot. I hope he can pull it off. That would be awesome.
What do you think?
I find it funny that alot on here can say that BH is just a back-up or maybe he can come in and win a few games but is not a long term option and at the same time berate any of those who say he brings a much needed spark and looks to be our QB, by turning around and saying he can't be as good as we say he is, because the sample size is to small  You can't have it both ways. He will either be what we need or he won't. If we can't judge him by how good he appears to be because of the small sample size, then we can't judge him how bad he might be because of the samething. No?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Im still a Frye guy! 
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We'll find out soon enough
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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#GMSTRONG
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the issue that many of us (at least me, but others have noted it so I'm throwing out the big grouping) have with Brian Hoyer is simply we do not feel comfortable with him being the only option on the roster because of that small sample size.
if we end up drafting Jimmy-G in round2 and letting him sit/learn behind Hoyer for 2014 (and maybe draft Connor Shaw later too), then I'm completely okay with that approach. Or if we draft Teddy Bridgewater at #4 and let the two of them compete for the starting job, then I'm okay with that too.
the only thing that would have worried me is if they signed Rex Grossman and kept Campbell (or signed another obviously backup QB) and just handed Hoyer the starting job with no other potential long-term option. that is all.
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Completely disagree but you're clearly dug into this position so moving on...
Then we agree to disagree as you are clearly dug into YOUR position.
Please stop trolling.
Thanks
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I understand, it just kinda gets to me when some keep harping on how he aint it and at the same time saying the sample size is to small to tell. Like I said you can't have it both ways. I agree, I think the more QB's we have in camp the better, may the best man win.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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#GMSTRONG
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I understand, it just kinda gets to me when some keep harping on how he aint it and at the same time saying the sample size is to small to tell. Like I said you can't have it both ways. I agree, I think the more QB's we have in camp the better, may the best man win.
I don't see anyone going on about "He's not it". I do see many, including myself, saying that it's not a conclusion you can jump to that he is it. The sample size is too small to really have a valid opinion either way.
And I believe if people were thinking from an objective viewpoint, not a Browns fan viewpoint, they could see that while Hoyer won those two complete games, he didn't light it up. He played well enough to win. And from what the players saw in practice, they believed he could play well enough to win.
I also believe people dismiss the level of competition and a decimated Bengal secondary. That's not saying Hoyer "Can't be it".
I could make a very long list of QB's that were back-ups, that when called upon had great success. But it was short lived. Holcomb, Matt Cassel, Matt Flynn. They are great back-ups, but when called upon to start have a limited shelf life.
Now this sounds like I'm trying to dismiss Hoyer, but I'm not. I'm simply saying there is a lot more to the situation than many seem to be willing to admit to. There are a lot more to take into consideration than what is seen on the surface.
Tom Brady was an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. And while that is a possibility, the likelihood is slim. I'm not saying Hoyer can't be the answer. I'm simply trying to be objective and look at things big picture rather than through a microscope.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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All I can say is that Hoyer wasn't signed until May 16th and was named the starter on Sept. 18th. In my estimation that's simply not enough time to learn your job and everyone elses job to critique your team mates. On this much we disagree.
Otherwise I do believe we are pretty much on the same page. I do believe when your team has had Brandon Weeden as their QB, seeing an improvement at the QB position in practice would give you more hope and cause you to elevate your game.
I do believe that's entirely two different issues but the end result is the same.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Our bad Passing game has been a 2-headed monster though...
Hoyer elevated the play of Cameron, OGB, and Gordon...
What we're used to seeing is a parade of garbage getting wounded ducks OR errant bullets floated or fired at them over and over again.
I feel like its a chicken or egg thing for most of our guys...Are the QBs bad, or are the WRs bad...obviously both. But who has ruined us worse.
Was Colt bad? or were the guys never open and with bad hands? Was Delhomme horrible or did he have no one open to throw to...Weeden was bad, cuz he had a good Gordon and was horrible still. Weeden and Campbell werent good...you can say that because they both had Cameron and Gordon to throw to and couldnt make heads or tails of anything...Hoyer had 2 starts, 2 Ws and a great gameplan got us a 3rd W that he was involved in.
Is it just that he's better than the parade of crap? Sure...but the kid elevated the play of his guys, got Ws, and had a team believing and playing confident.
There's no reason to not give him a shot...and theres no reason to not draft a QB that could potentially supplant him.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Just for the record on the other end of the spectrum I don't see many claiming he is the guy...just that he'll will or should get the shot to start. I thought it was obvious that he is coming into this as the #1...Whether or not somebody beats him out still would have to be seen.
On other stuff...I understand you guys know a lot more about football than I and it is not up for discussion so I bow out. Just to let you know - EVERYONE was knew to the offense regardless if you joined the team in MAY or January.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I don't know that Hoyer "elevated" Gordon's play. Gordon's best stretch was a 4 game set where he had 36 catches for 774 yards and 5TD. Those games were QB'd by Campbell and Weeden.
I worry that Gordon and Hoyer may not be a great match as far as strengths are concerned. While I do thin that Gordon can play a short game, and do so effectively, asking him to do so almost exclusively is almost like having a Ferrari and driving it only in a 25 MPH zone. I don't know if Hoyer is suited to give Gordon 2-3 (or even more) deep opportunities per week that really open things up across the board for all of our receivers.
I do think that Hoyer's abilities do help enhance the opportunities for a RB and TE in the passing game. He loves to throw short and quick. There are a lot of routes for TE and RB that play into that aspect of the game. Gordon, however ......? I think that he'll get his no matter what .... but that he does best when he gets a few deep opportunities per game .... and I question whether Hoyer is the guy to give him those opportunities.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Just for the record on the other end of the spectrum I don't see many claiming he is the guy...just that he'll will or should get the shot to start. I thought it was obvious that he is coming into this as the #1...Whether or not somebody beats him out still would have to be seen.
On other stuff...I understand you guys know a lot more about football than I and it is not up for discussion so I bow out. Just to let you know - EVERYONE was knew to the offense regardless if you joined the team in MAY or January.
jmho
I for one disagree completely. You know a TON about football and I've learned quite a bit from reading your posts over the years. Seriously. Doesn't mean I won't disagree from time to time. And this issue is really not an "issue" anyways. Most of us are just killing time until the draft.
As you said, I don't think anyone is saying Hoyer for sure will succeed or fail. ALL of us are just trying to project based on what we've seen. Some are more pessimistic while others are more optimistic. The truth is that for a LONG time the pessimistic peeps have been almost always right but that can't last forever so here is to hope.
Still not giving Hoyer credit for beating BUF though lol. Again, really not a big deal to most people either way because it won't change how Hoyer will do this year AT ALL. Yes it upsets me that peeps try to say Hoyer is 3-0 but on a scale of 1-10 it's like a 2.... just killing time till the draft.
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On other stuff...I understand you guys know a lot more about football than I and it is not up for discussion so I bow out. Just to let you know - EVERYONE was knew to the offense regardless if you joined the team in MAY or January.
jmho
No need to be condescending Tab. This has nothing to do with "who knows more". Unless you or I were actually at the practice facility, neither of us knows for sure.
It's simply a differing in opinions. Not so much a right or wrong unless you have some first hand evidence about this I'm unaware of? As I stated, I do believe seeing a more competent QB at practice helped elevate others. So to some degree we do agree. No need to feel butt hurt because I don't walk lock step in line with your opinion.
And I have not questioned you in terms of having football knowledge nor indicated anywhere that I know more than you do. So I have no idea where this is coming from.
I do agree that as of this moment Hoyer is the #1 QB on the roster. And until such time as someone beats him out for the position he will remain such. I do however believe in open competition at every position every training camp and pre season. So to me, time will tell if he remains our #1 QB after all is said and done. But I do agree that at this time, it's his job to lose.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.
The problem is he's only played the 3 games for the Browns.
I want to see more of him but the Browns have to bring in some legit competition at QB as well.
Hoyer is the wild card to the Browns having a winning season. If he can pick up where he left off we will be better off than if we have to force feed a rookie QB. We have seen how that has paid off in the past.
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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.
That's actually not saying very much. 
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j/c: Man, this thread has evolved into complete stupidity. 
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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.
yeah? what were some of his highlight plays in game 3 that made him show more than any QB since kosar. He had 2 completions............................................................
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I like Hoyer,and hope he can come back and perform well.He didn't play much,and his skill set isn't off the charts,but he has that "it" factor that you need from winning QBs.Drafting a franchise QB and having Hoyer as well,would be a breath of fresh air for a change.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
ball placement ball placement ball placement...He puts it where it needs to go to make good plays better...
That scramble that he had when he got hurt was an awesome play too...He just shows good feel for the pocket, the pass rush and the game...and he places the ball well.
It was different than what we've seen in the past in good games. Its not that he just had some good games...its that he played the position the way its supposed to be played. It wasnt great plays by the WRs or the QB...it was just solid smart football.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,352
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,352 |
I agree with KingSteve and would also like to add that when BH was in those 3 games the team looked entirely different than when BW or JC was in.It's not just the physical things you saw it was the leadership qualties and how te rest of the team responded.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
Quote:
Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.
yeah? what were some of his highlight plays in game 3 that made him show more than any QB since kosar. He had 2 completions............................................................
If you ignore the slant he puts PERFECTLY on Gordons hands... that's dropped, which goes for 20+ yards if not a TD...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
No need to be condescending Tab. And there it is...I am the one who is saying discuss it - you and others mocked me that its not even on the table...then you got the balls to say I'm condescending. I don't get you guys sometime.
Vers I see through n read your tit for tats - you can sit through mine...lol 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 433
1st String
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1st String
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 433 |
Agree.That team looked completely different when Hoyer came in.They had the look of winners,that we can do this and bring it on kind of attitude.He just has that quality,that stats can't measure...the "it" factor.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Mar 2013
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The team definitley looked all together different when Hoyer came in there is no question about that. He had the team playing at a higher level and anyone who is a Browns fan has to relize that. It was great the difference was like Night and Day!! So I say they better start the kid and let's at least see where hes at. Oh yeah and he was the under study to Brady for a few years sitting in all those meetings with Belichick and Brady have got to be worth something and we can reap the benefits of all he's learned. I know we will draft a qb which is great and if the rookie beats him out so be it but I for one would love to see if he can pick up where he left off. Just someone please teach him to slide.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867
Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867 |
Quote:
Quote:
Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.
yeah? what were some of his highlight plays in game 3 that made him show more than any QB since kosar. He had 2 completions............................................................
He made the highlight plays in his first two game,, but you knew that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer says he'll be ready
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