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That's what I'd be afraid of.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
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I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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If Mack really wants to play in J-ville and he calls the Browns and begs them not to match, what do we do? I mean if he really does not want to be here do we just let him go or do we match and hope he does not become a cancer?
Or you match the offer, then immediately pick up the phone and call them and say, "Ok, you can have him for this contract, what is it worth to you? You have the 39th pick.. that might do it."
But I would try to get something out of it..
yebat' Putin
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now thats an idea 
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Or you match the offer, then immediately pick up the phone and call them and say, "Ok, you can have him for this contract, what is it worth to you? You have the 39th pick.. that might do it."
But I would try to get something out of it..
or a pick swap... they're #3 and we're #4
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A possibility but unless we really covet one of the QBs and think we could lose him at 3.. I don't see what we gain there for losing a pro bowl center.
There are teams in this league that I could see him saying he's really impressed and wants to be there instead of here.. Jax just isn't one of them.
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JAX is likely taking a QB at 3. Highly unlikely they'd swap with any team they thought would be targeting a QB IMO.
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It's going to be pretty tough to pry him, but it's definitely possible.
If it were to happen, it would be a HUGE whiff by the new FO.
You've got to hope Mack's camp doesn't want to play hard ball. But if they do, I imagine there would be some small consolation prize on the table.
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I agree,to me it's agent speak. IMO, Mack is finding out that the money his agent was wanting from us, isn't being found anywhere else. The transition tag was a great move by Farmer. Mack claims the Browns didn't want to give him a long term deal. I say they did, but his price was too high. Now reality is smacking him in the face, and his agent is using the press as a negotiating tool.
I don't see why Jacksonville would want to pay him so much up front so that the Browns can't match, then hope he agrees later to take a cut. Why, if he gets his big payday, would he agree to not really want it, or give it back if Cleveland doesn't match.
Through all this, I have lost a lot of respect for Mack. I know it is a business, but I don't care. He has said that coming back to Cleveland would not be a bad thing, but acts now as if it is a very undesirable thing.
I say match the contract, and screw him if he don't like it. It's a business right? Well sometimes deals don't always work in your favor.
If he we match, and he signs here, I really don't believe he will play any different, so let the chips fall where they fall. He knows the situation, if he doesn't want to be here, then say it, instead of hiding behind the words of an agent.
I hope they match and he signs here and is booed the first time he steps on the field. Just to put him and his agent in their place. You don't want to be here, so now we don't care if your are. Karma is a beotch.
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It's in Macks business interest to not want to be in Cleveland. I don't fault the biz speak toting that line. I think he just wants best in NFL money and hasn't had luck getting that on the open market.
#gmstrong
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A possibility but unless we really covet one of the QBs and think we could lose him at 3.. I don't see what we gain there for losing a pro bowl center.
There are teams in this league that I could see him saying he's really impressed and wants to be there instead of here.. Jax just isn't one of them.
Oh yeah, I agree that would Definitely be dependent upon the QBs. Its an unlikely scenario either way.
I hate to say it, but If our QB is on the board at #3, the price might be pick #35 or even #26 
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If Mack didn't want to be here for an extended period. Then he should of just signed the Transition tag and went into FA next year.
He and his agent have to know were going to match anything he's given. Unless his agent filled his head with a bunch of BS about how much he's worth.
And all this crap about how we didn't want to sign him long term? Whered that come from?
Its to the point where I match it. If Jax wants to give us some compensation (At LEAST this years 2nd) then they can have him. And he can go wear their ugly helmets and be "happy"
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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A little snippet from this link: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...heet-by-friday/
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Agent Marvin Demoff has expressed confidence that an offer sheet could be constructed that the Browns wouldn’t match. While that may have been possible with a shorter-term deal, it will be very difficult to craft a five-year contract that will be acceptable to the Jaguars but not to the Browns.
The only possible loophole comes from a wink-nod arrangement between the Jaguars and Mack, involving a device like (as Jason La Canfora of CBS Sports hinted earlier today) a mammoth balloon payment early in the 2015 league year. The high cap number would need to be spread over the remaining four years as a signing bonus. But if Mack tells the Browns that he’d never agree to restructure the contract in Cleveland, the Browns would have to choose between carrying a huge cap number in 2015 or cutting him.
In Jacksonville, Mack could agree in 2015 to convert the balloon payment to a signing bonus, shrinking the cap number dramatically.
If that's the case, then enforce the tag, make him play out this year, and cut him next year if you have to. There is no real downside to matching a deal like that for the Browns.
Further, if the Browns carry over cap space from this year to next, as seems likely, then putting aside a chunk to accommodate the balloon payment isn't that difficult, and it would actually get the biggest part of his contract off the books in the 1st 2 years. No problem there.
Also Mack may say one thing today, but if this year goes well in Cleveland, and they come to him and say "Look, we'll give you an extra million dollars to convert that balloon to a signing bonus" ...... and he just might.
Everything is negotiable in the NFL ... especially if a little additional money is involved.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Alex Mack set to receive and sign five-year offer from Jacksonville Jaguars on Friday, Browns can match | cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/04/alex_mack_receiving_lucrative.htmlCLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Jaguars will offer Browns center Alex Mack a five-year deal on Friday and he's expected to sign it that day, a league source told cleveland.com. The Browns will then have five days to match. ESPN's Adam Schefter, who first reported that the five-year deal is coming, also stated that Mack prefers to play in Jacksonville. But sources told cleveland.com that Mack is fully aware that the Browns might match the offer and he's prepared to return to Cleveland to play under the same contract here.In order for the two-time Pro Bowler to sign the deal, it likely includes a record amount of guaranteed money and a record yearly average for a center. But if Mack thinks he's changing addresses, he might want to think again. Browns owner Jimmy Haslam indicated Tuesday that he'll match any offer the Jaguars come up with. “We remain optimistic that Alex Mack will be a Cleveland Brown for a long time,'' Haslam said on the "orange carpet'' at the local premiere of the movie "Draft Day" at Cinemark Valley View theaters. "We want him to be. I think we’ve made it very clear that he’s the kind of person, the kind of player we want in our organization.” Asked specifically if he'd match any offer the Jaguars concoct, he smiled and said, "We want Alex to be a Cleveland Brown.” Mack's close friend, left tackle Joe Thomas, who also attended the local premiere of the Browns-based movie, was also confident his linemate will be wearing orange and brown again in 2014. "Well, there’s no doubt that he’ll be here at least this year,'' said Thomas. "I think that’s for certain. I certainly hope we can sign him to a long-term deal and keep him here for much longer than I'm here.'' He said he's talked to Mack, who received the transition tag last month, but not about his contract. If Mack does turn down the Jaguars' offer and signs the transition tender, he'd make a guaranteed $10.039 million for 2014. The tender would make him the highest-paid center in the league by about $2 million. Currently, the highest-paid center is Carolina's Ryan Kalil at an average of about $8.186 million a year. Mack, the Browns' two-time Pro Bowler, met with the Jaguars on Friday night and both sides felt it was a good fit, sources said. The Jaguars, who have more than $25 million in cap space, are seeking to replace retired center Brad Meester and want Mack to anchor their line. The Jaguars offer could include $27 million to $30 million over the first three years of the deal. And although it might seem like a no-brainer for a Browns team that still has more than $30 million in cap room, it might not be that simple for Cleveland to match. Mack's agents, Marvin Demoff and Tim Younger, have stressed they can structure a deal in such a way that the Browns might balk. But the Browns made it their No. 1 priority in the offseason to re-sign Mack, and they will lean strongly toward matching the deal.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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j/c
I have lost alot of respect I had for Mack, seems to me he doesnt want to be here and is hiding behind his agent. All he had to do is be a man about it. Sign the tender and play out the year, instead I see this as pouting, and being a selfish player in the process. Frankly he is solid, but so was Hank Frayley and he came at a much cheaper price. At this point Id rather see us say, "we wanted you, but you didnt want us. enjoy losing in Jacksonville"
These players have no loyalty to the teams or fanbases anymore. Mack knew the city of Cleveland loved him here and he has spit in all of our faces and is hiding behind his agent. I say let the jerk walk.
#brownsgoodkarma
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A little snippet from this link: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...heet-by-friday/
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Agent Marvin Demoff has expressed confidence that an offer sheet could be constructed that the Browns wouldn’t match. While that may have been possible with a shorter-term deal, it will be very difficult to craft a five-year contract that will be acceptable to the Jaguars but not to the Browns.
The only possible loophole comes from a wink-nod arrangement between the Jaguars and Mack, involving a device like (as Jason La Canfora of CBS Sports hinted earlier today) a mammoth balloon payment early in the 2015 league year. The high cap number would need to be spread over the remaining four years as a signing bonus. But if Mack tells the Browns that he’d never agree to restructure the contract in Cleveland, the Browns would have to choose between carrying a huge cap number in 2015 or cutting him.
In Jacksonville, Mack could agree in 2015 to convert the balloon payment to a signing bonus, shrinking the cap number dramatically.
If that's the case, then enforce the tag, make him play out this year, and cut him next year if you have to. There is no real downside to matching a deal like that for the Browns.
Further, if the Browns carry over cap space from this year to next, as seems likely, then putting aside a chunk to accommodate the balloon payment isn't that difficult, and it would actually get the biggest part of his contract off the books in the 1st 2 years. No problem there.
Also Mack may say one thing today, but if this year goes well in Cleveland, and they come to him and say "Look, we'll give you an extra million dollars to convert that balloon to a signing bonus" ...... and he just might.
Everything is negotiable in the NFL ... especially if a little additional money is involved.
What if the balloon payment in the contract is fully guaranteed? I would think it would be and if that is the case we couldn't just cut him. I could see that being a problem but maybe not. I would think it'll still average out to be ok annually over the 5 years... we'll just need to be ready for it in 2015. It'll impact how we structure future contracts for sure and that could be a problem though.
I have my popcorn out and waiting to see what happens.
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Nothing he is doing is pouting. He is doing everything he can to get what he wants within the rules.
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your opinion and mine, we dont and wont see it the same way.
#brownsgoodkarma
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If that's the case, then enforce the tag, make him play out this year, and cut him next year if you have to. There is no real downside to matching a deal like that for the Browns.
Not exactly. The downside is an accelerated cap hit of all of the last 4 years portion of the signing bonus, which combined with his 1st year salary is WAY too rich. We're talking 15-20mil probably. No way. FA contracts like that aren't cut-able for at least two seasons.
If he has agreed to something like that, then a) he's an ass and can't get out of a Browns uni soon enough for me and b) the NFL has to step in, because it'd be bush league tactics
That said, I'd try to get something out of JAX for him at least. JAX has 11 picks.
#gmstrong
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The rumor I heard yesterday was that the Jags were in the 3 years/ $22 million range which is just a hair over $7 million/year... I think we'd be stupid to not match that.
I think it would be stupid to match it. $7 million/year for a center (no, I don't care that he's a pro bowl one) is too much, IMO. But, I can see them doing it because it keeps him here for 2 additional years, they don't have to tag him for the next three seasons and they still trim about $3 million/year (avg.) off the price of the contract for 2 additional years.
Sorry man, I think you aren't seeing the new picture here. The NFL salary structure is changing and this is the first year it is starting to hit home. At least for this team.
The CBA has taken those 50 mil contracts away from rookies and placed it in the pockets of veteran players. Teams also have to spend 89% of their cap on average or the players association will allocate it for them. I would assume they would simply bump all qualified vets X thousands to meet the 89% threshhold. I sure don't want it done that way.
In the old system, I agree, 7 mil is more than the worth. In the new system, it might become a bargain. You are going to continue to see deals you don't think are worth it, but only because your head is stuck on the old numbers.
In a few years you are going to see more and more veterans you would consider back-up players making yesterdays starter money. The cap keeps going up and teams have to spend the money. Rookie salaries are pretty much slotted now, so guess where teams now have to spend the money? So when you have a player like Mack who is better than average, teams won't blink a eye at 7 mil a year for a pro-bowl quality center.
That is the new reality, and hey, that's what we wanted. Right? Over paying Alex Mack is a heck of a lot better than overpaying say a Tim Couch or Brady Quinn.
Really man, you are a sharp guy. Think about it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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ok, so what should they do with that extra $2 million?
I would use it to extend the contracts of players I feel are more valuable. Look at the list of Browns 2015 free agents.
DBs: Joe Haden, Buster Skrine, Johnson Bademosi, Tashaun Gipson
DLs: Ahtyba Rubin, Phil Taylor, Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
OLB/DE: Jabaal Sheard, Quentin Groves
QB: Brian Hoyer
RB: Dion Lewis
TE: Jordan Cameron
WR: Greg Little
I know, not all of them will be wanted back, just listing some that might want to be kept.
Then you can look at 2016 and tack on several more pieces.
DL: John Hughes, Billy Winn
RB: Ben Tate
OL: Mitchell Schwartz
WR: Josh Gordon, Travis Benjamin
You have to think about the future of your franchise and not some overrated player. Frankly, I would rescind the transition tag now and let him sign with any team he wants for the top dollar. Actually, I take that back. I let him sign with Jacksonville for 5 years.  He would deserve it.
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The rumor I heard yesterday was that the Jags were in the 3 years/ $22 million range which is just a hair over $7 million/year... I think we'd be stupid to not match that.
I think it would be stupid to match it. $7 million/year for a center (no, I don't care that he's a pro bowl one) is too much, IMO. But, I can see them doing it because it keeps him here for 2 additional years, they don't have to tag him for the next three seasons and they still trim about $3 million/year (avg.) off the price of the contract for 2 additional years.
What's to say they won't offer a longer term deal.. Like 5 years at 40 million or something like that,,, with a signing bonus and the first 3 years guaranteed
If that's what they offer him, I let him sign in Jacksonville and a joyous transition tag burning ceremony like Nazis at a book burning.
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So, what should the max be? And what should the Browns do with the delta between that max and $7 million?
The max what? The maximum that the Browns should pay for him? That's up to them. Personally, I wouldn't pay any center more than $5/million per year.
I think that the Center position has become far more important in today's NFL, because, as plays become faster and faster, it behooves a defense to push their rush inside to get to the QB as quickly as possible. The quickest path to the QB is right over Center.
I don't believe that $7 or $8 million is unreasonable.
Alright. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. I think $7 or $8 million is $2 or $3 million too much.
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ok, so what should they do with that extra $2 million?
Go find a back-up center because ours isn't going to be very good. 
No, actually, I would draft Weston Richburg and not look back. If he was already gone before I was able to draft, I'd look to draft one of the others. Marcus Martin, Travis Swanson or Bryan Stork will be decent enough to do the job. Personally, I want Richburg anyway, whether Mack signed the tag or not.
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How much is that Mack agent talking to Lacafora and Schecter...what I don't like about that they say MACK says this and Mack says that about not wanting to play in Cleveland then you here Mack speak or Joe Thomas speak and he is probably playing here and like it.
And why wouldn't we be able to afford a big chunk in 2015...then that means real teenie weenie chunks the next 3 years 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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J/C ..... I see no way that the Jags put a fully guarantee $10 1st year salary plus a fully guaranteed $15 million roster bonus in year 2.
That would be insane. There is no way you take that kind of chance with your cap, even if you think that you have a wink-wink agreement in place. Things can change at the drop of a hat and a player can decide he wants to leave the greener grass quicker than a woman changing her mind about which shoes to wear.
Also, do you, as the trustee of the salary cap. trust an agent who tells you to trust him while you work together to cheat? That seems fraught with all kinds of danger.
In the end, and like I said, I think we'll match whatever Mack signs, and fix it later. It it costs the Browns an extra $1 million to do so, I think that they'll consider that just part of the cost of doing business. Besides, does anyone really think that once Mack is under contract, that he wants to be the guy hurting the team, and maybe forcing them to cut other players because he wouldn;t redo a simple clause in his deal? I don't. Once he's here. things change. They always do. I remember a Steelers receiver several years ago who signed an RFA deal, which the Steelers matched. he wanted to leave, but the Steelers kept him, and then restructured his deal almost immediately. Once he was back, he didn't want to be the guy who hurt the team. I don't think that any player wants to be in that position. Besides ...... even if Mack received a $35 million deal with $26 million in the 1st 2 years ..... once you get past year 2, he would become really inexpensive. There are benefits to matching a heavily front loaded deal.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You're right and it's a 5 year deal.
Too much turnover in Cleveland? Why not sign with a team that has had 4 different Head Coaches since 2011 (Del Rio, Tucker [interim], Mularkey [1 and done], Bradley)?
With win totals of 8-8, 5-11, 2-14, 4-12 the last 4 seasons.
Fact is, Mack wants out of Cleveland. I think it was a mistake to give him any tag anyway. If he has a 5-year deal with Jax, I let him leave and laugh at him on his way out. I don't even counter an offer. As soon as it is confirmed that he has signed the deal in Jax, I barely let the pen leave the paper before announcing that I won't match.
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A few thoughts:
--Loyalty? Why should the players be loyal when teams are not? It's about getting paid.
--It is upsetting that Mack doesn't want to be here. He'd rather be in Jax? How bad are things here?
--It's very evident that the Browns wanted Mack much more than Ward. Anyone want to apologize for all the ridicule you dished out? LOL.........I know the answer to that one.
--I think we would be hurting w/out Mack, but man, it's a lot of money to pay for a guy who does not want to be here.
--Things are looking glum again.
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This was always the goal.
Mack didn't want to sign long term with us. Tagging him with the transition tag gives other teams the hope that they can sign him (that is the Jaguars in this case) and we match the offer and now have him under contract.
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Does he say dumb things just to garner attention?
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If Mack really wants to play in J-ville and he calls the Browns and begs them not to match, what do we do? I mean if he really does not want to be here do we just let him go or do we match and hope he does not become a cancer?
Or you match the offer, then immediately pick up the phone and call them and say, "Ok, you can have him for this contract, what is it worth to you? You have the 39th pick.. that might do it."
But I would try to get something out of it..
And what if they laugh at your offer and have the media on conference call when you come calling?
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He'd rather be in Jax?
Just wait until he finds out in two years that home field is now London, England...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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A few thoughts:
--Loyalty? Why should the players be loyal when teams are not? It's about getting paid.
--It is upsetting that Mack doesn't want to be here. He'd rather be in Jax? How bad are things here?
--It's very evident that the Browns wanted Mack much more than Ward. Anyone want to apologize for all the ridicule you dished out? LOL.........I know the answer to that one.
--I think we would be hurting w/out Mack, but man, it's a lot of money to pay for a guy who does not want to be here.
--Things are looking glum again.
What?
So let me recap: you want an apology because our stupid FO thought the same about Ward as you did? So, that either makes them geniuses or you stupid by your logic, but I guess that's what happens when agendas get in the way: you contradict yourself in the same post, lol
You know why you don't get any apology? Because you have neither made nor proven a point with your chest bumping, as Ward hasn't played a down yet since leaving
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
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Sorry man, I think you aren't seeing the new picture here. The NFL salary structure is changing and this is the first year it is starting to hit home. At least for this team.
I know the CBA rules in regards tot he cap, but that isn't playing any part in my viewpoint. You can quality centers for much cheaper than what Mack wants. I simply don't think it's good value to pay him that much money. It's as simple as that.
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The CBA has taken those 50 mil contracts away from rookies and placed it in the pockets of veteran players. Teams also have to spend 89% of their cap on average or the players association will allocate it for them. I would assume they would simply bump all qualified vets X thousands to meet the 89% threshhold. I sure don't want it done that way.
I agree with the divvying up of any 'leftover' cash. That's why I would make offers to keep other players. Right now, I would put a contract in front of Josh Gordon that would guarantee him a couple of million or so upon signature to add a club option on additional years and it would be converted to a signing bonus paid this upcoming year.
The same would go for others that I would want to keep. I might give Haden a new deal. Jordan Cameron might get a similar deal. Any players I might want to keep would get such offers.
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In the old system, I agree, 7 mil is more than the worth. In the new system, it might become a bargain. You are going to continue to see deals you don't think are worth it, but only because your head is stuck on the old numbers.
For the length of this CBA, $7 million for a center would never be a bargain in any sane world.
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In a few years you are going to see more and more veterans you would consider back-up players making yesterdays starter money. The cap keeps going up and teams have to spend the money. Rookie salaries are pretty much slotted now, so guess where teams now have to spend the money? So when you have a player like Mack who is better than average, teams won't blink a eye at 7 mil a year for a pro-bowl quality center.
If this is true, then Mack should be getting more offers right now than he's getting. I'm not buying this argument at all.
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That is the new reality, and hey, that's what we wanted. Right? Over paying Alex Mack is a heck of a lot better than overpaying say a Tim Couch or Brady Quinn.
I wouldn't overpay in either circumstance.
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Really man, you are a sharp guy. Think about it.
I have thought about it. That's why I listed the free agents facing us after next season and then the following season as well.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
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He'd rather be in Jax?
Just wait until he finds out in two years that home field is now London, England...
Or Toronto.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Why is the FO "stupid" because they preffered a guy with 4 more year experience, over a guy who's a one way type S?
Is it because YOU disagreed with them?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,316
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,316 |
Mack is just fine staying in Cleveland. Geez I don't believe I even need to say that. He is looking to max his income for him and his family's future. None of us can blame him for this as we would do the same thing. This is his chance to squeeze as much money out of the NFL as he can and he is smart enough to be doing that. I was not a big Mack fan when we drafted him because of personal reasons. I knew that ment the end of Hank and his family in Cleveland, and damnit you just cant find better people than that, not just on a football level but on a personal level. Great people, great family all the way around. But Alex is a great guy as well, and for his sake I hope he gets some great offers, but for our sake I hope this is the top offer he gets so we can match it and keep him in Cleveland.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
I get it. They are stupid because they saw the same things I did.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 |
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Mack is just fine staying in Cleveland. Geez I don't believe I even need to say that. He is looking to max his income for him and his family's future. None of us can blame him for this as we would do the same thing. This is his chance to squeeze as much money out of the NFL as he can and he is smart enough to be doing that.
Great point, bro. I want to take back my comment about him wanting to be in Jax more than Cleveland. That was a dumb comment..............I think.........I hope. 
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 7,059 |
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He'd rather be in Jax?
Just wait until he finds out in two years that home field is now London, England...
Or Toronto.
Not going to happen, but I'd be cool with that move. I believe Toronto is North America's 5th biggest sports market...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,199 |
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Mack is just fine staying in Cleveland. Geez I don't believe I even need to say that. He is looking to max his income for him and his family's future. None of us can blame him for this as we would do the same thing. This is his chance to squeeze as much money out of the NFL as he can and he is smart enough to be doing that.
for our sake I hope this is the top offer he gets so we can match it and keep him in Cleveland.
my thoughts exactly.
Hunter + Dart = This is the way.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack continued...
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