|
|
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 193
Practice Squad
|
Practice Squad
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 193 |
haden and joe thomas expendable? you really are an anarchist!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
'Cleveland Browns appear to have gambled and won on Alex Mack, and should match Jacksonsville's offer: Terry Pluto' http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/04/cleveland_browns_appeared_to_h.htmlBy Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer on April 10, 2014 at 6:45 PM, updated April 10, 2014 at 7:40 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Unless the Browns are convinced that Alex Mack wants out of Cleveland, they should match the $42 million offer sheet that the center signed with Jacksonville. The deal will make Mack the NFL's highest-paid center, and allow him to opt out of the contract after two seasons. But it's not the salary cap-buster that I expected when I heard he was ready to sign with Jacksonville. I thought the Browns took an unnecessary risk in making Mack a transition player, and wrote a column earlier Thursday saying it was the first real mistake of the new front office. In the end, the strategy seems to have worked. Give credit to General Manager Ray Farmer and his staff credit for that. Rather than pay him the $11.6 million this season that I advocated by placing a franchise tag on Mack, it will be much less this season. In fact, it appears as if it will be less than the $10.1 million transition tag. Early reports are that the first two years of the deal -- $18 million -- are guaranteed. Assuming that's the case, it comes out to $9 million a year. Then Mack can leave after the 2015 season, or he can remain with the Browns in 2016 for at least another $4 million guaranteed, perhaps more. That's expensive, but not outrageous for one of the top centers in the NFL -- and a player who has not missed a snap since being drafted in the first round of 2009 by Eric Mangini. Obviously, Mack has concerns about the Browns because he refused to sign an extension -- even after owner Jimmy Haslam led six front-office people and coaches to visit the center in California. That was not a good sign, because very few offensive linemen have been courted with the determination the Browns displayed to Mack. Those close to Mack insist he is open to remaining with the Browns, though, and that he knew this deal with Jacksonville could end up being just the long, winding road back to Cleveland. All of the details of the five-year, $42-million deal have not been made public. But there doesn't appear to be anything in the deal that should prevent the Browns from keeping their man. Yes, the Browns can find a center who is pretty good and cheaper. But Mack is a Pro Bowler who joins All-Pro left tackle Joe Thomas to bring some stability to the line. I like the line better with Mack than with a rookie center or other veterans who are available. So if Mack is open to playing here, the Browns should quickly match the offer. Yes, the rarely used transition tag appears to have succeeded for the Browns -- something I never expected would happen. (end)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
So if Mack is open to playing here, the Browns should quickly match the offer.
He doesn't have a choice.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423 |
Serious question(s) ....
What kind of deal will Sheard and Taylor command if they hit the open market?
I suppose that for Sheard it will depand a great deal on how he does this season. If he has another 36 tackle, 5.5 sack season, then I would assume that he's not going to get a huge deal anywhere.
Unless he really breaks loose with a huge, huge season, I would guess that he's going to be looking at a 3-4 year, $12-$16 million deal, at least based on what similar type guys got this past off-season.
Taylor .... well, let's see. This year's top DT was Linval Joseph. (at least according to CBS) He was signed on day 1 of free agency. He received a 5 year deal worth $31 million, with $12 million guaranteed. (all in the 1st 2 seasons of the deal) His deal looks like it will carry an annual $6 million or so cap hit. I wonder if Taylor gets that same kind of deal. Perhaps.I would expect slightly less.
So, those 2 contracts could wind up in the $10 million/year range. We have $30 million in cap space right now, and we'll have to see how much we win up carrying over.
Who else will be free agents after the 2014 season .....?
Johnson Bademosi
Jordan Cameron
Billy Cundiff
Tashaun Gipson
Quentin Groves
Joe Haden
Brian Hoyer
Ishmaa'ily Kitchen
Dion Lewis
Greg Little
Chris Ogbonnaya
Jason Pinkston
Craig Robertson
Ahtyba Rubin
Jabaal Sheard
Buster Skrine
Andre Smith
Phil Taylor
Of these, a guy like Bademosi could be a special teams type guy with a fairly inexpensive extension.
Cameron and Haden will likely be top priorities.
Taylor and Sheard will probably fall somewhere behind them, and will depend greatly upon price, as will Skrine. (and the uncertainty with Skrine and Haden is why I would like to see us draft 2 CB in the 1st 3 rounds of this coming draft)
Hoyer could be a target to re-sign, or he might not be. Too early to tell. Same with Gipson. It depends on what they show this coming year. Both could be back. Both could be gone.
Then you have a bunch of guys who might not, or probably won't, be back .... These would be guys like Cundiff, Groves, Kitchen, Groves, Lewis, Little, Ogbonnaya, Pinkston, Robertson, Rubin, and Smith. Some might be re-signed, and some might not even make it through camp this season.
Right now we had what .... $33 million in cap space, and we'll recoup another $2 million or so when we match Mack's deal. The draft will probably take what .... $6-7 million in cap space? That would still leave us $28 million or so in cap space that we carry over from this year alone. We then would have to calculate what our cap room would be for next year, and add that to our carryover. We're in great shape to re-sign anyone we want.
Frankly, I want a rookie QB to have the best possible protection, and Mack is as close to rock solid as there is in the league. Teams will try to blow up plays in a rookie QB's face ... and this is where Mack's play is so valuable. Unless Hoyer becomes an All Pro next year, the QB we draft will wind up playing either next year, or in year 2. mack would be a huge security blanket. I think that we should keep him. We can afford the deal, we can handle it under the cap, and it won't prevent us from re-signing anyone we want to.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,805 |
This is what the NFL needs to look into. Quote:
the team that ends up with him can't apply the transition or franchise tag after 2015
If that flies, every agent around will be putting that clause in there and also the option of opting out. Which is BS.
This ain't the NBA.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,423 |
Why wouldn't that he allowed. It has been done by teams re-signing their own free agents, adding a clause that forbids the use of a tag when the contract expires.
I see nothing wrong with it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915 |
Quote:
the only guarantee we know for sure in $8 mil the third year.. if he stays. if not we owe him nothing.
Kalil (sp) makes 8.2 mil we will pay 9 mil... too much? probably... but it solves the problem for at least two years and allows us to convince him we are pointed due north and make him want to stay or two years to find / groom his replacement.
As far as renting... you can make that argument about any player under any contract
Alright, lets match. But if I'm the agent for Joe Thomas, next summer I'm screaming for a renegotiation. If Mack is worth 9 million a year then the best left tackle in football is worth at LEAST 15 million per with a HUGE guarantee. Otherwise, I hold him out. And you better plan on paying Haden BIG time if your throwing that kind of money at a center.
Meanwhile if he's getting paid like the greatest center of all time he better start PLAYING like a first ballot HOF center. He sure hasn't showed that so far.
#BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 5,915 |
Quote:
JT also got his deal 3 years ago. We just have a lot of inflation in the NFL, so Mack deserves this.
Alright, Mack deserves this because he's a HOF center. Joe Thomas then deserves a LOT more as he's the best LT in all of football. Period. So we better be ready to renegotiate his deal very soon. He's worth at LEAST 15 million per. He DESERVES it.
5-11 5-11 4-12 5-11 and 4-12 For being this mighty force Mack sure didn't bring us many wins. Straight up. if we pay him like the best center of all time he better step his game up BIG time. He better DOMINATE at his position EVERY play.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
No one is saying Mack is a HOF center.
With this deal he's only making a little over a mil more than the next highest paid center...
Who will resign soon and make more than Mack...
It's how the NFL works.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,517
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,517 |
To place a franchise tag on a center was a dumb move then,and it's still a dumb move.
For once in recent memory the Browns were the first to do something correctly,and more teams will be doing it in the future.
It was smart,but a little risky,and it seems to be playing out as the Browns envisioned.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,066
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,066 |
Creates cap problems down the road, maybe, but our signing serves notice in some ways for the future. Mack wanted this by refusing contract discussion in season. He wanted to test the market, and he did. I think he got the answers he wanted after doing what he wanted to, right or not. If we lock him in, for a few years, even with strings, and more money outlay than we wanted, we still have one great player.
All in all, he plays for us. And some part of the message sent, arguably how large, is to be careful what you wish for.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
haden and joe thomas expendable? you really are an anarchist!
I think EVERY player is expendable. Every single one.
Indy felt that Peyton Manning was expendable. All he did in Denver was take them to the Super Bowl. Sure, there was Andrew Luck to draft and all, but he hasn't taken them to the Super Bowl yet and may never take the Colts (or any team) there during his career.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Quote:
So if Mack is open to playing here, the Browns should quickly match the offer.
He doesn't have a choice.
Actually, he could retire as Barry Sanders did in Detroit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
[quote
5-11 5-11 4-12 5-11 and 4-12 For being this mighty force Mack sure didn't bring us many wins. Straight up. if we pay him like the best center of all time he better step his game up BIG time. He better DOMINATE at his position EVERY play.
So are going to apply the same logic to JT... man..... no wins he better step up ... and this record makes him worth $15mil. ?
I wouldn't... team sport....not one single person wins / loses games.
Market dictates salary... unfortunately JVille muck up the waters with their deal and we have to decide to match or not.
Is this too much for Mack?.. yeah probably... but I still sign him up... have him for two... if we can not convice him to stay and redo then he walks... no hard feelings.
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Quote:
the only guarantee we know for sure in $8 mil the third year.. if he stays. if not we owe him nothing.
Kalil (sp) makes 8.2 mil we will pay 9 mil... too much? probably... but it solves the problem for at least two years and allows us to convince him we are pointed due north and make him want to stay or two years to find / groom his replacement.
As far as renting... you can make that argument about any player under any contract
Alright, lets match. But if I'm the agent for Joe Thomas, next summer I'm screaming for a renegotiation. If Mack is worth 9 million a year then the best left tackle in football is worth at LEAST 15 million per with a HUGE guarantee. Otherwise, I hold him out. And you better plan on paying Haden BIG time if your throwing that kind of money at a center.
Meanwhile if he's getting paid like the greatest center of all time he better start PLAYING like a first ballot HOF center. He sure hasn't showed that so far.
Somehow, I don't think Joe Thomas is the kind to want to renegotiate his contract. He'll stand by what he agreed to, but your sentiment holds true with Haden. The Browns will have to start by ponying up $12 million/year or more to keep him.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
IDK, it might it might not. right now we have monies to redo some FA's for next year.
Next year even with the Mack hit we will have monies to redo and buy some FA's.
Third year if Mack is convinced to stay we may be able to redo... if not he walks and we have no cap hit AND no dead money.
If we find a potential replacement now, we can use him at G, get him up to speed and have a cheap alternative
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
sure they do, what's that got to do with it.
Mack is NOT OVERRATED. He's perhaps the best or second best center in the league.. Certainly top 5 in anybodys book.
I don't know what your hang up on the guy is, but let it go. he's going to be a brown and he's gonna get paid very well.. Count on it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,856 |
Quote:
[
I think EVERY player is expendable. Every single one.
Agreed, some are just more expendable than others... 
#gmstrong
A smart person knows what to say.
A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
That is complete BS!!!! Well of course it is...you didn't write it...lol 
It was just my humble opinion of what happened. I put ??? on things that I wasn't sure of but thought I read.
So it wasn't fact just opinion...and your opinion is of course Fact. Come on dawg! Get off the humping Banner kick and join the Browns Race again. Banner had a Terrible rep with AGENTS. Did you not see how he alienated several HEAD COACHING CANDIDATES?!?! Imagine how he alienated the Agents. Nuff said...yes definitely speculation. Not fact. After all it can't be fact cause there is no link...isn't that how this goes.
Like its not a fact that on this thread a month ago I got Villafied for stating that Center needs the least Skill Set to succeed of all the OL position. I guess it must be fact now cause an Ex-NFL writer Ross Tucker has confirmed it as so.???
Banner had some good points but he was POISONING the Browns - I'm glad he is gone. I'm shocked a smart guy like you just doesn't see that???
Oh and Vers...you know I love you man... No malice what so ever. You can call me anything you wish as long as you do it with a smile on your face...lol
Last edited by eotab; 04/11/14 09:03 AM.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,171
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,171 |
Quote:
This is what the NFL needs to look into.
Quote:
the team that ends up with him can't apply the transition or franchise tag after 2015
If that flies, every agent around will be putting that clause in there and also the option of opting out. Which is BS.
This ain't the NBA.
That does fly. This isn't the first contract to have a "no tag" clause in the NFL; not by a long shot.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,171
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,171 |
Quote:
S
Right now we had what .... $33 million in cap space, and we'll recoup another $2 million or so when we match Mack's deal. The draft will probably take what .... $6-7 million in cap space? That would still leave us $28 million or so in cap space that we carry over from this year alone. We then would have to calculate what our cap room would be for next year, and add that to our carryover. We're in great shape to re-sign anyone we want.
Bingo.
Those few million that he will cost in 2015 aren't a concern, especially when you look at how much cheaper he is after that, if he chooses to stay - which will likely depend upon what this franchise/front office does to prove itself. If we're still floundering and firing people willy-nilly.... guaranteed that he walks after 2015. If we're showing REAL progress toward becoming a legitimate franchise, he just might stick around.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
If we're showing REAL progress toward becoming a legitimate franchise, he just might stick around.
No he won't, even if we go to the POs in both seasons. Why? He will make 8mil in 2016 but in that offseason he can get double as much with a new guaranteed contract on the open market.
Mack has to kiss his agents shoes for having found a team dumb enough to give him that kind of opt out clause after only two seasons, as it guarantees him now TWO prime year contracts with 15-20mil guaranteed. It doesn't get much better than this for ANY player, let alone a Center. Might as well declare Demoff agent of the year already....he delivered, big time.
Long story short: whoever signs him has him for two season and that's it. If he plays good enough for us wanting him to return, he'll opt out. If he underperforms, WE will cut him. It's a 2 year, 18mil deal anyway you look at it, the rest of the contract is just making sure it remains a two year deal.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,887 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If we sign it cool... if we dont.. its whatever..
we'll be fine regardless..
I want Mack to be a Brown.. but I'd rather those millions go to someone like Joe Haden..
We can pay both, and Gordon and Cameron. It's not like we have a QB making Tom Brady money on our roster and if we draft a QB in the first we have him on his rookie contract for 5 years.
Sure, but it will cost us one or two of Sheard, Taylor and Rubin. The question, long term, becomes: are two more seasons of Mack worth 4-5 seasons of Taylor/Sheard?
The way the contract is structured, he WILL opt out 100%, as by then the contracts go up and his contract goes down. It's a GREAT deal for Mack, who gets guaranteed money in for two seasons, he normally would have only gotten for long term deals....and after those two years, he can do the same again. His agent DID deliver.
I'm torn on matching. I'd rather sign Sheard or Taylor long term than have him one more season
Again, we don't have the big $$ QB on our roster and won't have one for a few years. With the Cap increasing every year I don't see how Mack's contract will hinder us. 9 mill guaranteed? We were calculating 10 mill for his contract due to the transition tag. And at the tag cost we still have 30mil in cap space.
Sure we may lose Rubin next year to help but we will still have draft picks to help fill some roles. Overall I think we will be able to sign most of our key guys to good contracts.
If we get a QB in the draft and he does turn into that Franchise QB then we have him for 4 years on a rookie contract, and if we take him in the 1st round we will have a team option for the 5th year. By that time Mack's contract no matter what will be up and maybe by then we will have drafted a new Center and he will be on his rookie deal freeing up that money to pay the QB.
The Browns are fine. If they are drafting a QB having a Pro-Bowl Center will defiantly be a huge asset for him.
JMHO
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
We would have to work out a new deal - extension what ever you want to call it...for him to stay.
Note I remember Stallworth's agent would get him these incredible deals with a built in year that was so so high this way he would keep the signing bonus which was the thing in that time period and then get released cause nobody was going to pay that incredibly high price and he would switch teams getting another big time signing bonus - But one of the reasons I think Stallworth never found a home.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,537
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,537 |
jc Props to PLUTO for backing off his Thursday rant. You won't find many journalist that will so readily admit they were wrong. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
Quote:
jc
Props to PLUTO for backing off his Thursday rant. You won't find many journalist that will so readily admit they were wrong.
LOL I guess I missed this... I'll have to go and look for it... Thanks
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/04/cleveland_browns_appeared_to_h.html
That's the article
Last edited by Damanshot; 04/11/14 09:30 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
one of the most important parts of the Mack deal is that we have the tag to use on someone else next offseason and we have to factor in that we won't be paying him 120% of the tag price.
"$18mil + use of '14 tag" is much better than "$22mil + no '14 tag", which is the money and usage that would have happened had he signed the tag and we tagged him again next year.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
I think the Mack deal suits us well if we want to go with it.
Here's my continued thoughts on Mack. Why are our guards so horrible? It's the center's job to make the proper line calls. He is supposed to help the rest of the line decide who is going to have what responsibilities on given plays...And I cant count how many times we see a guard double in and then a blitzer hit that gap to mess up a play with a sack, hit, pressure, or deflection, or blow up a run play.
I am not deep enough into football to know if that is the guard's fault, or if thats on Mack calling for a double when there shouldnt be.
Our OL gets almost no push on run plays...it's crazy how little push we get.
We do create some very nice pockets when we don't blow an assignment and get the QB killed.
Where I'm at with Mack is that...he's okay. I love his toughness and durability...but for some reason I get this feeling that we could easily replace him with a draft pick, 2nd year guy, Vet...and not look ANY worse on the line...maybe even look better.
Center is important, and needs to be treated as such...but I think that our guards arent as bad as theyve looked. I think with a different center guys like Lauvao, Pinkston, Greco, etc... may not have look as horrible...
Is that a crazy line of thinking? Our OL looked really good with Fraley. It just hasnt looked stout ever since 09 when he was drafted. I dont know if thats on Mack or the talent around him...I think our Tackles are great...and Id love to see Faulk push Schwartz to make it and him even better. I think the guards have been weaknesses, but more weakness than liability. And with Mack in the middle...they have been liabilities...I couldnt tell you where the fault totally lies...but I think its somewhere in the middle.
Mack is replaceable.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
j/c
Has Mack actually signed the offer sheet yet? Or are we still at the "he's going to sign it soon" stage?
*Edit* And not that I think this is what's happening at all, but just for discussion purposes, do you think it's possible that we're trying to work out a deal with him now that's better than the Jax deal but maybe gets rid of the void contract, etc.?
I don't even know if that's allowed under the rules and I think it'd be silly, but just throwing it out there.
Last edited by brownsfansince79; 04/11/14 09:35 AM.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
Quote:
j/c
Has Mack actually signed the offer sheet yet? Or are we still at the "he's going to sign it soon" stage?
*Edit* And not that I think this is what's happening at all, but just for discussion purposes, do you think it's possible that we're trying to work out a deal with him now that's better than the Jax deal but maybe gets rid of the void contract, etc.?
I don't even know if that's allowed under the rules and I think it'd be silly, but just throwing it out there.
To your first question, no, he's supposed to sign it today. After which, the Browns are on the clock.
To your second question, I have no idea.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Why are our guards so horrible?
I'm not saying our guards are Larry Allen and Steve Huchinson or anything, but I really believe us not having a good running back since that one year from Jamal Lewis plays into it as well. I guess you could throw a season of Peyton Hillis in there too. Seems like ages ago.
Some argue that the offensive line makes the RB, others will tell you that the RB makes the OL. It's both, and it's been pointed out that guys like Richardson were too dumb to see the lanes, and other guys like McGahee were too slow to get to them. I really think if Dion Lewis didn't get hurt, we would have had a better running game last year, assuming T-Rich still would have been traded...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
Quote:
but for some reason I get this feeling that we could easily replace him with a draft pick
I think if the FOOTBALL guys out there thought it was as easy as you do, they'd just do it and forget about paying Mack the big bucks.
Also, if it were really that easy, why would the Jags cut a deal with Mack like they supposedly have?
I guess what I'm saying is, you seem to be undervaluing Mack or the position. Not sure which. But I think it's Mack that you are devaluing.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
j/c
To me the matching is ALMOST a no-brainer. If we were willing to pay him over $10M for one year, why not an avg of $9M for 2? Basically we get year 2 for less than $8 if we use the $10M+ transition tag we were willing to pay in year 1.
The one uncomfortable thing to me, unless I'm seeing this wrong, is the guaranteed $8M in year three at the player's option.
Reasons:
1. God forbid, the guy could come up lame between game one of this year or game 16 in year two and we will be on the hook for $8M in year three at his option. He might be getting $8M to sit on a beach. A lot can happen over 3 years.
2. We will have virtually no idea if we have $8M in 2016 tied up or to spend. We have no control in that. It causes an unknown for number crunching future contracts and extensions. We have to assume it is tied up.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
"My signature line goes here."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm not 100% sure here, but I think that if he, for some reason, underperforms the next two seasons, that we can just cut him before the 8mil kick in. Of course, if he pulls a LeCharles and lands on IR shortly after the league deadline passed, THEN the money is fully guaranteed, but that can happen with any player.
My best guess is that it's a very high roster bonus amount on day one when the new season officially begins, so that in effect BOTH sides can void the deal after two seasons. I'm 100% sure that's how Mack's agent envisioned it all along. He has set up his client for TWO prime year signing bonuses that other players only get for signing "real" 4-5 year deals. He aced it imho. Now Mack just has to not suck and streamline his reputation and he'll make 9-11mil for the next 4 seasons, fully guaranteed and no matter what. He should be happy now, if it was all about money for him, as it couldn't have gone much better for him.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
Good would outweigh bad for Browns if they match offer to Alex MackBy Nate Ulrich Beacon Journal sports writer Published: April 10, 2014 - 03:42 PM Pro Bowl center Alex Mack has pulled off more than one coup this week. Not only has he managed to coax a lucrative offer sheet out of the Jacksonville Jaguars despite the transition tag the Browns placed on him last month, but he also has hijacked local sports talk. Who knew a center’s contract situation would dominate draft-obsessed Northeast Ohio with the Browns set to be put on the clock with the fourth overall pick in less than a month? The fact that it has reflects the important decision the Browns face. Mack has agreed to a five-year, $42 million offer sheet and is expected to sign it today, NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport reported Thursday. Once he signs, the Browns will have five days to match it. If the Browns match, Mack will return to Cleveland under the terms of the deal constructed by his lead agent, Marvin Demoff, and the Jaguars. ESPN’s Adam Schefter cited an unnamed source who said the Browns figure to match “in no time at all.” ProFootballTalk.com also reported “the Browns will likely match the offer.” Owner Jimmy Haslam and Pro Bowl left tackle Joe Thomas, Mack’s best friend on the team, expressed confidence Mack would return to Cleveland when they spoke to reporters Tuesday night before an advance screening of Draft Day at a Cinemark theater in Valley View. Asked if he’s prepared to match anything the Jaguars might offer, Haslam smiled and said, “We want Alex to be a Cleveland Brown.” But should the Browns match? The simple answer is yes. There are fair points on both sides of the argument, but if the Browns match, the good would outweigh the bad. Perceived deal breaker: The offer sheet will make Mack the highest-paid center in the NFL at $8.4 million a year, trumping the $8.16 million per year Carolina Panthers center Ryan Kalil received in 2011, when he signed a six-year, $49 million contract, which included $28 million guaranteed and an $18 million signing bonus. Rapoport reported the deal is worth $18 million in the first two years and gives Mack the power to void the contract and become a free agent after the 2015 season. It’s also designed so Mack would not be susceptible to being tagged if he voids the deal after two seasons, according to the report. Mike Garafolo of Fox Sports 1 reported the deal totals $26 million guaranteed, including $8 million guaranteed in the third year if Mack doesn’t void the contract after 2015. In a column for SportingNews.com, former Browns offensive lineman Ross Tucker wrote the center position “is not worth it.” Why it shouldn’t be a deal breaker: The Browns would have paid Mack $10.039 million guaranteed next season if he had signed the transition tag. Then if they failed again to reach a long-term deal with him, they would either tag him in 2015 or let him hit the open market. Because the offer sheet pays $18 million in the first two years, it would make sense for the Browns to match it without blinking because they’d be getting Mack for less than if they had used a transition or franchise tag on him the next two seasons. Browns General Manager Ray Farmer has received justified criticism for using a transition tag on Mack instead of a franchise tag in the first place. The cost for a franchise tag would have been $11.654 million, $1.615 million more than a transition tag. But if Mack had been franchised, any other team that signed him would’ve been required to surrender two first-round picks to the Browns. With a transition tag, the Browns would not receive any draft-pick compensation if Mack left. Still, the Browns will be able to say Farmer’s risky decision to use a transition tag worked out if they match. They’ll also be able to back up the claim that quarterback Brian Hoyer made Tuesday: “We’re not in rebuilding mode. We’re here to win now.” Perceived deal breaker: If the Browns commit that much money to a center, it’ll throw their budget off and impede them from extending the contracts of other key players such as Pro Bowl cornerback Joe Haden, Pro Bowl tight end Jordan Cameron, outside linebacker Jabaal Sheard, nose tackle Phil Taylor and Pro Bowl wide receiver Josh Gordon. Why it shouldn’t be a deal breaker: Ex-Browns CEO Joe Banner contributed to this situation by failing to secure Mack before the 2013 season, but Banner also left the organization with superb financial flexibility. The Browns have $29.6 million in salary-cap space, most in the league, according to the NFL Players Association. The Jaguars have $25.1 million, ranking third in the NFL. The salary cap is $133 million this year. Schefter reported it’s expected to surpass $140 million next year and exceed $150 million by 2016. Perceived deal breaker: Mack doesn’t want to play in Cleveland. Why it shouldn’t be a deal breaker: He would never sign an offer sheet if he were totally opposed to returning to the Browns because he knows they could match. But even if he were desperately trying to get away, the Browns would be foolish to use that as a reason not to match because it would set a precedent for other players who might have ideas about forcing their way out. If Mack returns, he wouldn’t suddenly create a toxic situation the way Peyton Hillis did in 2011. He’d continue to be a professional and try to prove he’s the best center in the league. Meanwhile, if the Browns improve under coach Mike Pettine and finally show some semblance of stability, they’d increase their chances of keeping Mack for longer than two years, despite his reported authority to void. Perceived deal breaker: The Browns could easily replace Mack. John Greco, the starting left guard last season, can play center. Plus, the Browns have 10 draft picks and could find a starting-caliber center in the first three rounds. Why it shouldn’t be a deal breaker: Good luck replacing a Pro Bowler and All Pro in his prime — Mack is 28 — who has played all 4,998 snaps in his five NFL seasons. In 2011, he played 13 days after undergoing an appendectomy and didn’t miss any time because the Browns were coming off a bye. Guys like Mack almost never hit the open market. He’s one of the best at his position, he’s durable, he doesn’t have off-field issues and he has plenty of football ahead of him. Another body can be plugged into his spot, but odds are the new guy wouldn’t be the epitome of reliability. In his six NFL seasons, Greco has never started at center. A rookie would need to learn the ropes in the NFL. That would not be ideal for a team that’ll either start Hoyer, who’s coming off a torn anterior cruciate ligament, or a rookie at quarterback next season. Perceived deal breaker: Since the Browns drafted Mack in the first round (21st overall) out of the University of California in 2009, they’ve had records of 5-11, 5-11, 4-12, 5-11 and 4-12. That’s 23-57, so a top-notch center obviously isn’t the key to success. Why it shouldn’t be a deal breaker: By that logic, offensive left tackle and wide receiver aren’t important, either. The Browns have gone 37-75 since they drafted Thomas, a seven-time Pro Bowler, in 2007. Gordon led the NFL in receiving yards last season (1,646), but the Browns went 4-12. So if those guys leave, it’ll be no big deal? Give me a break.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,404
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,404 |
Our OL had some great blocking going on in '09 and '10, especially on running plays. What's the biggest difference since then on the OL: losing Steinbach. I think we need to nail the G position this offseason.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,865 |
Just clicking Didn't see this posted.. if it was, I'm sorry. I guess I just missed it. http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/04/alex_mack_will_be_thrilled_to.htmlAlex Mack will be thrilled to play for the Cleveland Browns if he gets the big contract: Mary Kay Cabot. Quote:
CLEVELAND, Ohio - I'm not buying that Browns center Alex Mack wants out of Cleveland and would prefer to play in Jacksonville.
I firmly believe that Mack is looking for fair market value and that he's found a way to get it -- from either the Jaguars or the Browns.
I believe that Mack will be thrilled -- even overjoyed -- to remain with the Browns if he gets the money he wants, despite national reports to the contrary.
This is Mack's first big opportunity to hit the jackpot, and he's not about to settle for less than what he can get.
The Jaguars have made him a five-year offer worth about $27 million to $30 million over the first three years of the deal, which would make him the highest-paid center in league. The deal will include at least $22 million guaranteed, but probably more. Once he signs it, the Browns will have five days to match.
The two sides are still working out the details of the offer, including if and when Mack can void the contract. The offer on the table Wednesday included an option for Mack to void it after two years, according to profootballtalk.com, but a source told cleveland.com that that's subject to change.
If Mack really wanted out of Cleveland, all he had to do was sign the one-year transition tender for $10.039 million and then hit the market next year. Yes, he would have had some injury risk, but even if he tore his ACL next season, he'd still receive a big free-agent contract. Maybe not the potential $22 million guaranteed he would've gotten, but a big deal nevertheless.
I do believe that Mack really likes the Jacksonville Jaguars and is fully prepared to pack his bags and fly south. I know he enjoyed his time with Jaguars general manager Dave Caldwell and coach Gus Bradley and would genuinely enjoy playing for them. But I don't believe it's his fervent hope to get out of Cleveland, where players are buying into the new program, excited about coach Mike Pettine and optimistic the Browns will win this season.
Mack needed a fantastic offer from another team to set his price, and he got it. But there's no way he'd sign the deal with Jacksonville if he didn't want to play for the Browns.
Mack is well aware that the Browns have every intention of matching any deal that Jacksonville comes up with. Browns owner Jimmy Haslam made that perfectly clear at the Draft Day movie premiere Tuesday night.
"We remain optimistic that Alex Mack will be a Cleveland Brown for a long time," Haslam said. "We want him to be. I think we've made it very clear that he's the kind of person, the kind of player we want in our organization."
Asked if he's prepared to match anything the Jaguars come up with, Haslam smiled and said, "We want Alex to be a Cleveland Brown."
Even if the Browns have to pay him $20 million over the first two years and then he voids the contract, they'd still have their Pro Bowl center for two years and the line would be stable. Sure, that's a million or two more per year than they'd want to pay for a center, but they've wasted far more millions on worse players over the years -- and they've thrown tens of millions more out the window on fired coaches.
Mack knows that his owner is serious about matching the deal, because he's said so publicly, and because Haslam flew out to California along with other key members of the organization to personally show Mack how much he wants him back. The Browns have stated that re-signing Mack is one of their highest priorities this offseason. So would they really let him get away for a few million dollars?
I highly doubt it.
What's more, Mack's best friend on the team, seven-time Pro Bowl left tackle Joe Thomas, was supremely confident on Tuesday night that his buddy will remain with the Browns -- and he's kept in close contact with him.
"There's no doubt that he'll be here at least this year,'' Thomas said. "I think that's for certain. I certainly hope we can sign him to a long-term deal and keep him here for much longer than I am here."
Does he still think he'll be back regardless of the Jacksonville situation?
"Yeah,'' said Thomas, who was vocal last season about the Browns keeping Mack.
Granted, Mack and Thomas were two of the many players extremely upset when the Browns fired Rob Chudzinski after one season. What's more, they lost their beloved line coach George Warhop to the Bucs. But Thomas likes the new coaches, and so does Mack.
"It was tough,'' said Thomas. "Obviously we've had some time since that happened and I'm able to get over it. But I'm excited about the staff that they've brought in. The things I've seen from coach (Pettine) and the new staff that they brought in, I'm happy about. We've only had a couple days. but I've had a chance to talk to him a little bit and I really like the things that he's selling so far.''
Mack also told USA Today last month that he likes the direction of the team.
"I like where my future is going,'' Mack said. "Mr. Haslam, he's a really good owner. I've got a really good feeling about him. He's a direct person who knows what he wants to do. There's something to be said of that. It's now a clean slate."
He also stressed that he'd be happy returning.
"I have to be comfortable with (the fact they can match)," Mack said. "It's their right. I have to weigh that into any potential decision. But I walked away from our meeting with feeling it was a good meeting. With a doubt, it's not a bad thing to return to the Browns.
"We'll see what happens. It's tough to know. I don't know how teams feel about me. I still have an opportunity to meet with coaches and experience free agency. That's the goal. I like Cleveland; I know it. I like these new coaches. But there are other opportunities out there. You only get to play this game so long. Let's see what else is out there."
Mack played on a Browns team last year that featured six Pro Bowlers, which bodes well for the future. The Jaguars, who also went 4-12, had none. The Browns have also added impact free agents in Donte Whitner, Karlos Dansby, Ben Tate, Nate Burleson and Andrew Hawkins. They have players such as quarterback Brian Hoyer, receiver Travis Benjamin, running back Dion Lewis, linebacker Quentin Groves and receiver Charles Johnson coming off major injuries -- an infusion of talent from the trainer's room.
What's more, they have 10 draft picks this year -- including two in the first round -- thanks to the wheeling and dealing of former CEO Joe Banner, who knew this draft was far deeper than last year's.
The immediate future looks bright enough that Hoyer said Tuesday night, "We're here to win now. We're not in rebuilding mode.''
Mack also plays in front of a home crowd that averaged 71,242 per game last year despite the constant losing. The Jaguars, on the other hand, averaged 59,940 and could be playing in London by 2017.
All along, Mack has wanted a big, long-term contract from the Browns, and now he has a chance to get it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
I have to admit this is working out a whole lot better than I thought it would. Assuming we match the offer, we just got Jacksonville to do our negotiating for us, coming up with a deal Mack and the Browns can both live with and no acrimony through the process. Props to the FO for getting it right. I really thought they had screwed the pooch.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,069 |
Is Mack as good as either of the Pouncey brothers?
How does he compare as a center to Mangold?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Quote:
[
I think EVERY player is expendable. Every single one.
Agreed, some are just more expendable than others...
Indeed they are, George.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Alex Mack continued...
|
|
