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This issue is the absurdity of absurdities. Let me get this straight: the purpose of the Sin Tax is to gouge those who purchase alcohol and cigarettes not because anyone is trying to discourage consumption but rather so the County can use that money to pay for sports stadiums that do not produce anything but a fleeting moment witnessing the passing of a football, the dribbling of a basketball and the throwing of a baseball so that such a minute tidbit of diversion can be enjoyed by all. The stupidity of this proposition is enough to make your head spin even though the spin doctors advocating passage of this nonsense are already doing a pretty good job of hypnotizing the voters to actually consider supporting it. At least the Robber Barons of the previous centuries provided something tangible such as oil, steel, railroads etcetera. These team owners do not even provide one tangible thing that could ever be considered with the term “value added.” Almost everyone discusses this “enterprise” as though it is the same thing as industry {which it is not}. The price of admission is essentially a voluntary tax paid by those who can afford it to pay those who don’t need it. If this isn’t a transfer of wealth I don’t know what is.
The real outrage here is the fact that taxes on alcohol and cigarettes will not be used to aid in the reduction of addiction {hence the reference to “sin”} but rather to stuff the pockets of all three teams who could easily afford to pay for the repairs themselves. The vote was rammed through the last time {under somewhat suspicious circumstances} and hear we go again. But this time...not so fast!!! We the voters of Cuyahoga County are going to fight the proponents on this one and we don't care if the teams up and go somewhere else {please see my views on entertainment below} because quite frankly there are simply more important things than sports and the unearned money that comes with it. Those in public office who are too stupid and lazy to find other ways to grow a major American city need to resign and leave their self-seeking political ambitions on the scrapheap of history. Don’t ever let it be said that this was time when the tide ran out on Cuyahoga County but rather was the time when the voters rose up to welcome the rising tide of change and rebuked this pathetic paradigm our previous elected leaders embraced. Let the battle be joined.
And now to the real underlying issue at hand:
One of the most disturbing facts about our capitalist nation is the misappropriation of funds directed to the salaries of entertainers. Everyone should agree that the value an athlete, movie star, talk-show host, team-owner, etcetera brings to the average citizen is very small. Granted, they do offer a minuscule of diversion from our daily trials and tribulations as did the jesters in the king's court during the middle ages. But to allow these entertainers to horde such great amounts of wealth at the expense of more benevolent societal programs is unacceptable. They do not provide a product or a service so why are they rewarded as such?
Our society is also subjected to the "profound wisdom" of these people because it equates wealth with influence. Perhaps a solution to this problem and a alternative to defeated school levies, crumbling infrastructures, as well as all the programs established to help feed, clothe and shelter those who cannot help themselves would be to tax this undeserved wealth. Entertainers could keep 1% of the gross earnings reaped from their endeavor and 99% could be deposited into the public coffers.
The old ideas of the redistribution of wealth have failed, and it is time to adapt to modern-day preferences. People put their money into entertainment above everything else; isn't it time to tap that wealth? Does anyone think this will reduce the quality of entertainment? It seems to me that when entertainers received less income, the quality was much higher.
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You again 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So which quarterback do you prefer in this year's draft?
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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So which quarterback do you prefer in this year's draft?
Whoever he is he should be taxed for his insolence! 
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I sure hope he supports the Spergon Wynn for QB bandwagon!
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Are you related to Mayim by chance?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Are you related to Mayim by chance?
He posted the same damn thing a few weeks ago and as Purp correctly said, if you check the indians or cavs board, I bet you find the same thing, word for word, there.
Dude is a writer with an agenda..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Are you related to Mayim by chance?
He posted the same damn thing a few weeks ago and as Purp correctly said, if you check the indians or cavs board, I bet you find the same thing, word for word, there.
Dude is a writer with an agenda..
All writers have an agenda....they want you to read their words.
That said, I'd say it's fair he smokes, drinks, isn't a sports fan, and has a fairly narrow mind in that he doesn't understand the impact a pro team has on the local economy.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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There are negative impacts too. More traffic, noise, pollution for the population. And it hurts some nearby businesses. The traffic and parking issues can discourage shoppers from going downtown and make it more expensive to run the shop. And companies/workers that drive on the job, it hurts productivity.
The NFL wants to be in the best markets. I think the 31 municipalities could benefit by forming some type of pact, limiting subsidies. Its easy for the NFL to pressure a few markets at a time, but they can only pull so many teams out of good markets and move them to smaller ones. They don't want the stadium in Akron or Toledo. And the smaller the market gets, the more burden per taxpayer to subsidize the stadium.
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I have no idea what you've said, but I do know that the Sin Tax needs to expire.
Taxes passed for a specific purpose should NOT be allowed to be perpetuated into eternity.
They should expire and dissolve once their original purpose is accomplished.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I have no idea what you've said, but I do know that the Sin Tax needs to expire.
Taxes passed for a specific purpose should NOT be allowed to be perpetuated into eternity.
They should expire and dissolve once their original purpose is accomplished.
But, it's the new American way.
Check out the turnpike.
Check out any sin tax - in theory, they are designed to change behavior. In reality, when behavior gets changed, the taxes go up as well as having new taxes. Let's face it - the taxes aren't meant to diminish behavior, they are disguised as that though - they are meant to bring more money to the county/city/state or federal gov't. And once a gov't. agency gets their hands on money, they don't give it up.
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And the public finds the "thought" of punishing the sinners with extra taxes as far more acceptable.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I have no idea what you've said, but I do know that the Sin Tax needs to expire.
Taxes passed for a specific purpose should NOT be allowed to be perpetuated into eternity.
They should expire and dissolve once their original purpose is accomplished.
But, it's the new American way.
Check out the turnpike.
Check out any sin tax - in theory, they are designed to change behavior. In reality, when behavior gets changed, the taxes go up as well as having new taxes. Let's face it - the taxes aren't meant to diminish behavior, they are disguised as that though - they are meant to bring more money to the county/city/state or federal gov't. And once a gov't. agency gets their hands on money, they don't give it up.
Good example. I am sure that thing has been paid for many times over.
It's one of the reasons I like Flordia. I can point to multiple bridges over waterways that you had to toss .50 cents at for 6-10 years, then it became a free pass.
Some bridges, no. The Sunshine Skyway that connects Pinellas County,Florida with Manatee County will always have a toll. Super expensive bridge with a high maintenance factor.....plus, nobody complains, it saves you 50-60+ miles of time.
It just went up to $1.25 per cross.....not sure what a pass costs for frequent crossers.
Me, I'll gladly pay $2.50 for a two way cross to save maybe 2-3 hours of drive.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I agree, No complaints about the tolls on the Skyway. Plus, the Rest Area has beaches and a fishing pier. I thought the 7 year painting project was a bit ridiculous though. 
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If I got taxed on my sins Charlie Manson would be a free man before i WOULD 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Quote:
I have no idea what you've said, but I do know that the Sin Tax needs to expire.
Taxes passed for a specific purpose should NOT be allowed to be perpetuated into eternity.
They should expire and dissolve once their original purpose is accomplished.
Sort of like PSLs
PSLs were put in place to help pay the cost of construction of the stadium. All bonds for the stadium are paid off. So now The Browns are still selling PSLs and pocketing the money
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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I believe the reason to continue the tax is the ongoing expense to maintain the facilities..
As they age, the needs become more and more important.
Seems like it's shortsighted to pay for a building then let it rot out over time. You wouldn't do that with your home would you?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
I have no idea what you've said, but I do know that the Sin Tax needs to expire.
Taxes passed for a specific purpose should NOT be allowed to be perpetuated into eternity.
They should expire and dissolve once their original purpose is accomplished.
Sort of like PSLs
PSLs were put in place to help pay the cost of construction of the stadium. All bonds for the stadium are paid off. So now The Browns are still selling PSLs and pocketing the money
They actually got rid of PSLs when Haslam bought the team.
#gmstrong
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I believe the reason to continue the tax is the ongoing expense to maintain the facilities..
As they age, the needs become more and more important.
Seems like it's shortsighted to pay for a building then let it rot out over time. You wouldn't do that with your home would you?
Do you believe they'll upkeep a stadium for 100 years like people do homes? Do you believe they are looking at re-sale value like you do with a home?
I'm not saying you don't maintain it. But this is more like a car than a home. It has a very limited life span before it's replaced. The days of Muni Stadium are long gone.
Unless you spend as much or more on the current stadium as it cost to build it in the first place to install some type of dome, it will be lucky to have more than another 10 year life span. At what point are you wasting money on it?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I believe the reason to continue the tax is the ongoing expense to maintain the facilities..
As they age, the needs become more and more important.
Seems like it's shortsighted to pay for a building then let it rot out over time. You wouldn't do that with your home would you?
Do you believe they'll upkeep a stadium for 100 years like people do homes? Do you believe they are looking at re-sale value like you do with a home?
I'm not saying you don't maintain it. But this is more like a car than a home. It has a very limited life span before it's replaced. The days of Muni Stadium are long gone.
Unless you spend as much or more on the current stadium as it cost to build it in the first place to install some type of dome, it will be lucky to have more than another 10 year life span. At what point are you wasting money on it?
That's not the point Pit.. If you don't maintain it, you end up with a "League Park" kinda thing..
I don't like the tax either but to me, if you want the sports teams to remain here, it's the cost of doing business.
You are right about the duration, these aren't the kind of facilities you maintain for 100 years. Today, they have a useful life span of about 40 years on the outside. (Give or Take) But during that time, they generate huge dollars for the community.
that has to have some value.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
I believe the reason to continue the tax is the ongoing expense to maintain the facilities..
As they age, the needs become more and more important.
Seems like it's shortsighted to pay for a building then let it rot out over time. You wouldn't do that with your home would you?
I generally believe stadiums should be privately financed and privately owned by whoever owns the team that uses them.. but aside from that, your comment above speaks to something governments are notoriously bad at.. operations and maintenance budgets.
I see it in all branches and at all levels of government.. they love to build new buildings, new community centers, new schools, new courthouses, new military barracks, new 911 call centers, new stadiums.. the problem is they absolutely SUCK at figuring the operations and maintenance into future budgets and the replacement costs of those facilities into future budgets.
It's really not that hard but it's not the way government people think because they want the biggest bang for their buck in the eyes of the constituents and saying "We built this new community center for you." gets a lot more mileage with the people than, "We obligated a hundred grand a year out of the next 20 years budgets so we can replace the HVAC when it dies or put a new roof on it."
We are finishing up a huge project at a nearby military base which got a ton of money from BRAC and spent it all on building new buildings.. so our task was to make the old buildings servicable. They had HVAC units that wouldn't even come on, there were buildings they couldn't use during periods of the summer because they were just too hot because they were not being maintained at all. They had roof leaks, doors that stuck, carpet was shredded.. but hey, on the other side of base they had a bunch of shiny new buildings to show off.
yebat' Putin
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I generally believe stadiums should be privately financed and privately owned by whoever owns the team that uses them..
Most are city/county owned. And if you wanted the Browns back, you needed to build a place for them
again, a cost of doing business.
As for the government maintaining facilities, there are many examples of them doing a great job. But your point is taken and I bow to you on this because I know you are into that field. I suspect you know better than I.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I sure hope he supports the Spergon Wynn for QB bandwagon!
You're gosh darn right.
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Who do you think the Browns should draft, Joe?
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Who do you think the Browns should draft, Joe?
he wants Haslam to sell the team to Kmart
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Who do you think the Browns should draft, Joe?
he wants Haslam to sell the team to Kmart
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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cool
Hey,, Speaking of Cool, have you seen the ad in opposition to the sin tax that spouts a ton of lies.., NO TRUTH TO IT..
Is that what you are associated with? A bunch of political hacks that can only hope to win if they lie.
Really nice move there.. I think it's really cool how you guys have shot yourself in the foot.
Calling it a tax increase.. That's just flat out lying.. oh hell, you probably wrote the copy for that ad.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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 not today, joe...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Vote YES for Sin.
GO BROWNS!
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JC
Its interesting how Gov't Tax and Spend can create so many jobs...when a billionaire is profiting from it.
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JC
Its interesting how Gov't Tax and Spend can create so many jobs...when a billionaire is profiting from it.
I assume you are speaking of Haslam, Dolan and Gilbert? Right?
Think of it this way, if we didn't build those facilities and maintain them, then these billionaires would just do it in another city and we'd miss out on the revenues generated by the teams and facilities and hotels and eateries etc
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I know Tax-and-Spend can create jobs. Some people insist Gov't spending can't create jobs, though.
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I know Tax-and-Spend can create jobs. Some people insist Gov't spending can't create jobs, though.
Not sure where you are going with that., This is lots simpler than that. We build the facilities or we lose the teams.. That's as simple as it is.
We also lose the revenue generated because of those teams.
Despite what the anti sin tax ads say, the teams DO NOT RECEIVE ALL the revenue.
But here is the bottom line, if you like Football in Cleveland. If you like having the Browns here.. Then you gotta provide the facility.. If you don't, another city will and you will be without the team, the prestige having a team brings and the revenue and business and jobs they create.
You blow all the teams out of Cleveland, and you have Youngstown.. (no disrepect intended Ytown).
So for me, there is no advantage to being against the Sin Tax.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
I know Tax-and-Spend can create jobs. Some people insist Gov't spending can't create jobs, though.
Not sure where you are going with that., This is lots simpler than that. We build the facilities or we lose the teams.. That's as simple as it is.
We also lose the revenue generated because of those teams.
Despite what the anti sin tax ads say, the teams DO NOT RECEIVE ALL the revenue.
But here is the bottom line, if you like Football in Cleveland. If you like having the Browns here.. Then you gotta provide the facility.. If you don't, another city will and you will be without the team, the prestige having a team brings and the revenue and business and jobs they create.
You blow all the teams out of Cleveland, and you have Youngstown.. (no disrepect intended Ytown).
So for me, there is no advantage to being against the Sin Tax.
No offense. I think that Cleveland would be somewhat better off still because of their access to the port f Cleveland, and the airport, but the loss of the major sports team would certainly be a massive loss for Cleveland. It would decimate their hotel industry ..... because people aren't going to travel to Cleveland just to see Cleveland. (No offense) Even the R&R HOF, and other attractions aren't going to hold up on their own as attractions.
I have watched the officials of Youngstown make bad decision after bad decision for the better part of 30+ years. The steel industry left the city/area, and that was absolutely a tragedy, but after that happened, they protected the unions to the extent that unions almost had final say on employers coming into the area. There were no plans, and n vision for any improvement of the area. Tearing down abandoned homes was the best idea many could come up with.
The Youngstown 2010 initiative was one of the first real plans that anyone came up with, and pushed (thank you YSU and Mayor George McKelvey) that actually had a chance of working. It only took from the 70s to the mid 2000s to put it in place, and to make any real improvement in the plight of Youngstown whatsoever.
I look at the Browns, Indians, and Cavaliers as major industries. They bring business into the city. The teams (employers) also pay taxes to the city, as do all of their multi millionaire players. (income taxes)
Imagine losing out on all of that income, in addition to the loss of the teams, and the loss of revenue for area businesses. It would be a massive downward spiral.
Now I don't know if it would be the final word as far as forcing teams out of town if the sin tax were to be defeated. Maybe the city could come up with another funding mechanism ..... but it would be a tough sell in this environment. It would be best if the sin tax were approved by the voters, and there is no risk of losing the stadium income. (and, potentially, the teams)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Not sure where you are going with that., This is lots simpler than that. We build the facilities or we lose the teams.. That's as simple as it is.
We also lose the revenue generated because of those teams.
I just find it reassuring to see so many people acknowledge Gov't spending as a job creator. No sarcasm or opposition here.
If the Cleveland-Area voters want to redistribute tax dollars from the Sinners to the Sporting Community, that is their call.
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I find it funny that politicians actually have the kahuna's to use the word sinners when describing others.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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