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German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case The father of a German exchange student shot dead in Montana after he trespassed in a man's garage has said the US cannot continue to "play cowboy" with firearms. Markus Kaarma has been charged with deliberate murder in the Sunday killing of Diren Dede, 17, of Hamburg. But he says Montana's self-defence law allowed him to shoot the boy. Celal Dede said he would not have allowed his son to study in the US had he been aware of the lenient gun laws. "I didn't think for one night that everyone here can kill somebody just because that person entered his back yard," Mr Dede told the German news agency dpa. Pressure authorities Mr Dede returned to Germany from Montana on Thursday after securing the release of his son's body, a German consulate spokeswoman said. The son of a family of Turkish immigrants to Germany, Diren was attending Big Sky High School in Missoula, Montana, for one year as part of an exchange programme. Diren, known in Hamburg for his football skills, had only six weeks left in the programme. Markus Kaarma was released on $30,000 bond while he awaits trial on the murder charge Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said. On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police. They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said. When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times. It is unclear what the teenager was doing inside in the garage. Mr Kaarma's lawyer said his client planned to plead not guilty. The state allows residents to protect their homes with deadly force when they believe they are going to be harmed, said his lawyer, Paul Ryan. "We know with no question the individual entered the garage," Mr Ryan said. "Kaarma didn't know who he was, his intent or whether he was armed." He said that there had been a spate of break-ins in the neighbourhood and Mr Kaarma did not think the police were doing anything about them. 'Castle doctrine' defence The suspect was released on $30,000 (£17,800) bond, and has remained in his home. Montana's so-called "castle doctrine" law was amended in 2009 to allow deadly force if a homeowner "reasonably believes" an intruder is trying to harm him or her. Before that, residents could only use such force if the intruder acted in a violent way. The legislation was backed by the US' largest gun lobby, the National Rifle Association (NRA). State Representative Ellie Hill told the Missoulian newspaper she has proposed legislation to repeal the 2009 amendments to the law. "What the castle doctrine has done in this country is it has created a culture of gun violence and vigilante justice," Ms Hill, a Democrat who represents Missoula, said. "And it's created a culture that it's okay to shoot first and ask questions later." Diren will be buried in Turkey, his family said. His football team in Hamburg, SC Teutonia 1910, played a charity match on Wednesday to help the family pay for the funeral. Diren's friends and family in Germany expressed sorrow following his death. "We had spoken on the phone just one day before," a friend told local media. "He had the best year of his life in America." Another friend attended the charity football match organised for Diren's funeral. "What happened is a sad story, and with this we want to show that we're all with him and won't forget him," the friend said.
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I guess the home owner has to wait until the perp says, "I will kill you", or is shot at by the intruder? Why was this kid trespassing? Shouldn't he have known better than to trespass?
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This: Quote:
Montana's so-called "castle doctrine" law was amended in 2009 to allow deadly force if a homeowner "reasonably believes" an intruder is trying to harm him or her.
is a fine line. One should always err on the safe side of a fine line.
My understanding of "castle doctrine" (and I'm no expert, nor am I an attorney) and my understanding of "reasonable fear an intruder is trying to harm me" is apparently different than Kaarma's was.
If a guy is in my garage at midnight, (or at noon, for that matter) I have a reason and a right to confront them - with a gun, if I feel so inclined. My understanding however, is I don't have a right to shoot first. If the intruder brandishes a weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat, tire iron, etc) and comes towards me, that changes things. At that point I am "reasonably in fear" of harm to me.
IF, upon confronting an intruder in the garage, he turns and runs - I absolutely do not feel I have a right to shoot him, even if he's taking off with a purse, or t.v, etc - because my "reasonably fearing harm towards me" defense is gone - the threat to me or my family is fleeing.
Again - my understanding - at least for Ohio - is that the "castle doctrine" replaced what we had in place prior - where it was the homeowners duty (in such a situation) to PROVE he tried to escape the situation, and to prove he had no ability to escape the situation - meaning prior to castle doctrine - someone breaks into my home, my first legal obligation was for me to attempt to remove myself from the situation, and only if I could prove I couldn't escape from the intruder, and IF the intruder threatened me, would I be allowed to use force.
Again - if an intruder is fleeing, you don't shoot - because the threat to you is leaving. My understanding is castle doctrine does not "protect" property - but it is for protecting people.
Someone in my garage, that I go confront? Different situation, entirely, than someone in my bedroom with a weapon - or coming towards me with intent. My understanding is castle doctrine was a good policy in theory - as it essentially put the burden of proof on the intruder as opposed to the home owner......but castle doctrine was not put into place to say "go ahead and shoot." If that makes sense.
Also - Quote:
he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said
and Quote:
Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.
and
Quote:
Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.
will be tough to defend in court.
Again, I'm no gun nut, I'm not an attorney..........and yes, had the kid not walked into the garage, none of this happens. On the other hand, had Kaarma (is that not an ironic name here?) acted more responsible, none of this happens either.
Now, if the kid was there, had a weapon and or came at Kaarma, that could/probably would change things.
From the facts I've only read in this article, I think Kaarma is in trouble.
But, what do I know.
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On the other hand, should someone die for trespassing?
and Should that decision be made by someone not trained in law enforcement?
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Someone trained in law enforcement is almost never right there when it happens.
The Florida version of this law is based on the concept that the initial break-in gives reasonable suspicion of violent intent. No specific threat or even danger is required, just a "forcible and illegal entry". So it does have to go a bit beyond simple trespass.
As long as you do whatever, inside your own home, you are good to go. If they turn to run, shoot faster. Maybe he set his gun down just inside the window.
It used to be that everybody knew that entering another's home without permission was a very dangerous thing to do. This is a concept that needs to be re-learned.
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It would also seem to depend on if the garage is connected to the house. If someone is trespassing in your garage, and looking to start working on your door to the house, should you have to wait until they are inside the house itself? I don't know. A part of me says that the garage is not the house, and that most people in a garage are looking for a quick theft. I don't believe that this law was put in place to prevent theft. If a person was in his garage, and someone snuck in and grabbed a hammer or something, and threatened the homeowner, then that's another story.
Back to actually killing someone ..... I would have a real problem with shooting someone, let alone killing them. If I believed that my life were in danger, or the life of someone I love, then I hope that I would not hesitate to shoot them. I would probably try to wound them with my first shot though, and that would be a mistake. My brother has told me to aim for the biggest part of an intruder's body, and expect to kill whoever I am shooting at. That would be difficult for me to do. A gunshot in the leg can be fatal though, if it hits an artery, so maybe shooting for the torso is the right call.
I would not begrudge anyone the right to defend their home and family. I do believe that they should have a reasonable expectation of danger, and not use this as an open invitation to just kill people. I worry about stuff like this, because the intention is right .... to allow people to protect themselves and their families without fear of prosecution ....... but like any law, abuse of the law leads to problems. I think that the law should be amended to allow for defense, but to specifically forbid protection for someone who tries to lure someone into their home so they can kill them, and so on.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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As a responsible gun owner, behavior like this makes me sick. The Castle doctrine doesn't give anyone a right to bait someone into a deadly force situation. This guy needs the book thrown at him.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
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Quote:
So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
I'm not jfan, but that is not what he is saying. It is common sense to not flaunt valuables that could be easily stolen, but that is not what he is saying. He is referring to "baiting." That means intentionally using your valuables to attract someone toward stealing them. That is different than just hiding valuables.
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Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
No. It is like saying a girl dressed provocatively for the specific purpose of getting the attention of a person/persons and getting said person/persons to follow her.
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There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
It's not entrapment on its face because this couple is not law enforcement, but it is really, really stupid. Burglary is a crime no matter the circumstances, correct, but don't put a pile of sugar in your driveway and not expect ants to come.
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So should someone be allowed to leave their garage open with a purse in there so they can shoot?
Plus I don't think you can compare it to provocative dressing, unless the provocative dresser is doing it so they CAN be raped so the provocative dresser can then shoot the rapist.
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Quote:
So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
Burglary is a crime, not a crime worthy of death but a crime none-the-less... the problem in this instance is that we don't have any idea if burglary was the intent.
Based on the story, the kids car could have broken down after midnight, he saw an open garage door, assumed that meant somebody was home and still awake, and was walking up to bang on the door to ask for help. The kids cat could have gotten out and run into the garage and he went to retrieve it. Heck last fall I had a neighbor knock on my door at 11:30 one night to ask me if I knew my garage door was still open... There are a number of plausible reasons why a kid might have been there that did not involve burglary...
I'm a gun owner, not a gun "nut", but an owner.. and these vigilantes are going to do more to get gun rights restricted than any liberal ever will if they keep making gun owners look like whacked out, trigger-happy, vigilane, fools...
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Quote:
So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
umm, the person didn't just happen to have the stuff out. that person was deliberately trying to attract theft so the gun could be used. if you don't see anything wrong with that....wow.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
Mr Kaarma, a 29-year-old firefighter, has told investigators his home had twice been hit by burglars, and he told a hair stylist he had waited up at night to shoot intruders, prosecutors said.
On the night of the shooting, Mr Kaarma and his partner Janelle Pflager left their garage door open, and Ms Pflager left her purse in the garage in order to bait intruders, she told police.
They set up motion sensors and a video monitor, prosecutors said.
When the sensors went off just after midnight and they saw a man on the monitor screen, Mr Kaarma went outside and fired a shotgun into the garage without warning several times.
There is some seriously stupid people in this country. Defending yourself does not include setting up a mantrap. Talking about it with your hair stylist then admitting to the police you left the door open and a purse in the car to entice them. Brilliant move I suppose if you're wanting free room and board the rest of your life.
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What kind of self-respecting 29 year old dude from Montana admits he has a hair stylist? 
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
What kind of self-respecting 29 year old dude from Montana admits he has a hair stylist?
Don't knock him, he just learned the term from his manicurist.
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Quote:
Quote:
What kind of self-respecting 29 year old dude from Montana admits he has a hair stylist?
Don't knock him, he just learned the term from his manicurist.
Bubba had just returned from his mani-pedi and bikini waxing when he saw the security camera come on...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What kind of self-respecting 29 year old dude from Montana admits he has a hair stylist?
Don't knock him, he just learned the term from his manicurist.
Bubba had just returned from his mani-pedi and bikini waxing when he saw the security camera come on...
and said to his partner, "dang lena, I think we got us one, this is easy as setting a trotline! Punch record would ya, my new hair stylist ain't gonna believe this stuff. "
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Quote:
No specific threat or even danger is required, just a "forcible and illegal entry".
There was no force used in this case. The garage door was left wide open.
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Quote:
On the other hand, should someone die for trespassing?
and Should that decision be made by someone not trained in law enforcement?
To answer your 2nd question first, most certainly yes. I've lived up to 30 minutes away from a police station, and in one small town where the police station closed for the night and the number was forwarded to the next town down the road. You will probably not have time to wait for the police in those situations. This guy was in Montana, so there's no telling how far away his police are.
If you die trespassing, that could mean you didn't have a chance to kill, steal, rape, or commit arson. As I said before, we have no idea as to the intent of the dead guy. He was definitely somewhere he shouldn't have been.
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Quote:
I'm a gun owner, not a gun "nut", but an owner.. and these vigilantes are going to do more to get gun rights restricted than any liberal ever will if they keep making gun owners look like whacked out, trigger-happy, vigilane, fools...
People always use the most whacked out, idiotic examples they can find of those on the opposite side of an issue that care about. There is no sense finding a guy who saved his family from a guy who had raped and killed several women in his area.
The lunatics are few and very far between. (except for criminals) However, if you can get a story like this out every few weeks, then it becomes some "pattern".
I will say that all sides of any political argument do it ...... but one side sure does it better (more effectively) than the other.
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Quote:
Quote:
So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
umm, the person didn't just happen to have the stuff out. that person was deliberately trying to attract theft so the gun could be used. if you don't see anything wrong with that....wow.
So, if I have a huge TV, and I mean huge, I should have blackout curtains and never open my windows to keep it being seen from outside my house? What if I'm cooking burgers in my back yard on a nice summer day with my front door open. Does that give some crook the right to walk into my house?
I've heard it said that locks only keep out honest people, but an honest person will at least knock or announce themselves if they enter your house without your knowledge.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
umm, the person didn't just happen to have the stuff out. that person was deliberately trying to attract theft so the gun could be used. if you don't see anything wrong with that....wow.
So, if I have a huge TV, and I mean huge, I should have blackout curtains and never open my windows to keep it being seen from outside my house? What if I'm cooking burgers in my back yard on a nice summer day with my front door open. Does that give some crook the right to walk into my house?
I've heard it said that locks only keep out honest people, but an honest person will at least knock or announce themselves if they enter your house without your knowledge.
What you are totally and completely missing is unless you are in danger yourself - castle doctrine gives you no rights whatsoever.
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Quote:
Quote:
On the other hand, should someone die for trespassing?
and Should that decision be made by someone not trained in law enforcement?
To answer your 2nd question first, most certainly yes. I've lived up to 30 minutes away from a police station, and in one small town where the police station closed for the night and the number was forwarded to the next town down the road. You will probably not have time to wait for the police in those situations. This guy was in Montana, so there's no telling how far away his police are.
If you die trespassing, that could mean you didn't have a chance to kill, steal, rape, or commit arson. As I said before, we have no idea as to the intent of the dead guy. He was definitely somewhere he shouldn't have been.
Or it could mean you were chasing your cat, chasing a ball over the fence, just lost, or looking for help.. walking into somebody's open garage could mean a lot of things.. In this case it meant he got shot before anybody had the slightest idea why he was there.
The people who are doing this, setting traps and shooting people, as well as the people who are defending them are hurting, not helping, gun owners causes..
Applying the "reasonable man" rule, which I accept isn't always the way the law is written, but it is the way I think.. if you are in your house and there is a stranger in your garage, you lock the door from the inside, you yell that you are calling the police, you yell Who's there? You yell that you are armed... 99.9% of the time, that person is going to leave because they don't want a conflict, they are either there for innocent reasons or they are there to steal a possession, not engage in a shootout.... the other .1% of the time, if they do make an attempt to open the door anyway, then shoot them. What you don't do is set them up on camera and go into the garage and fire into the darkness, hoping you hit something, when you have only speculation as to who is out there and why they are out there.
The first case we discussed, the guy was wrong because of the execution style way he "finished the job".. in this case the guy is wrong because he left the safety of his home to go into the garage to shoot the guy with only speculation as to why the guy was there... in both cases they were wrong for baiting people into their homes... In the first case I have less sympathy for the crooks because they broke into his house and apparently had done so before.. in the second case, we have no idea if this guy was in the garage with ill intent or not and we may never know.
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Quote:
Or it could mean you were chasing your cat, chasing a ball over the fence, just lost, or looking for help.. walking into somebody's open garage could mean a lot of things.. In this case it meant he got shot before anybody had the slightest idea why he was there.
Are you in the habit of entering other people's property without announcing yourself? I wouldn't walk into a good friend's house, even if I was expected, without announcing that I was there. I don't even walk into my mom's house without announcing my presence.
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Quote:
Are you in the habit of entering other people's property without announcing yourself? I wouldn't walk into a good friend's house, even if I was expected, without announcing that I was there. I don't even walk into my mom's house without announcing my presence.
Well of course you should announce you are there. I mean absolutely anything short of that means you should be killed!
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Quote:
Quote:
Or it could mean you were chasing your cat, chasing a ball over the fence, just lost, or looking for help.. walking into somebody's open garage could mean a lot of things.. In this case it meant he got shot before anybody had the slightest idea why he was there.
Are you in the habit of entering other people's property without announcing yourself? I wouldn't walk into a good friend's house, even if I was expected, without announcing that I was there. I don't even walk into my mom's house without announcing my presence.
Note to Santa, do not go to Erik's house!
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Quote:
Well of course you should announce you are there. I mean absolutely anything short of that means you should be killed!
No, it means you could be killed. Accidents very easily happen when you sneak into grandma's house and she owns a shotgun.
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Quote:
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Well of course you should announce you are there. I mean absolutely anything short of that means you should be killed!
No, it means you could be killed. Accidents very easily happen when you sneak into grandma's house and she owns a shotgun.
Note to grandkids; No more surprise parties for gandma!
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I don't know what to think anymore. I'm all for a person's rights to protect themselves and family from an intruder... I will protect myself and family from an intruder (especially my family, as once I'm gone they probably don't have a chance) But why did this guy Bait and then ADMIT to baiting someone into his home.. Seriously! Firefighter no less. I seriously don't understand what someone is thinking as I sure hope I'm not faced with someone I'm my home illegally as I will protect my family 100% of the time more so than myself as if given the chance would try to back down... My family I take no chances because I might not get a second chance to protect them so I will always take the aggressive position...... Still left with one nagging statement....
Stay out of people's houses, regardless of your intent..
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Quote:
So what you two are saying is that if I have anything valuable, anything at all, I have to make sure no one sees it?
You fail at paraphrasing.
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Isn't this kind of like saying that the provocatively dressed woman was "asking for it"?
No, it's like saying the provocatively dressed woman did so with the sole intention of enticing a known rapist to assault her so she can shoot him.
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There is what's called entrapment, and this is nowhere near that. Burglary is a crime, whether it looks easy or not.
How is this NOT entrapment? They didn't leave the door open and a purse in plain view as a course of their normal daily activity. They did it so they could shoot someone.
DC is correct. Folks like this will do more harm to the gun rights cause than any liberal will. I fully support the right to carry, the right to use deadly force in self defense and the castle doctrine. People like this are idiots that need to be locked up.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Rule #1: Don't let people you do not know into your home. What is it that makes you a target over your neighbor, knowledge of where your stuff is. No one sees it, less chances of someone picking your home.
Rule #2: Do not plan out the event of shooting anyone.
Rule #3: Do not record the event, video or audio, this is not a trophy and you're not going to hang it on the wall.
Rule #4: Make damn sure they are in your home before you pull a trigger.
Rule #5: When they are down or disabled, stop shooting. The intent is to protect yourself and your family, not to kill people.
Rule #6: Call the police immediately upon discharging your firearm and talk only to the police, you don't want to be able to say, "only my hairdresser knows for sure".
At least this is the way I see it. You can make up your own rules as you wish.
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Rule #5: When they are down or disabled, stop shooting. The intent is to protect yourself and your family, not to kill people.
Wrong. Keep pulling the trigger until the gun is empty. That will show just how afraid you were for your life. If the cops show up and you're still pulling the trigger, they'll be sure you were scared to death.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
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Are you in the habit of entering other people's property without announcing yourself? I wouldn't walk into a good friend's house, even if I was expected, without announcing that I was there. I don't even walk into my mom's house without announcing my presence.
First, you changed nouns.. are we talking about property or house? Do you stand at the end of the driveway and yell to your friends that you would like to come up?
But to answer your question, yes I have a couple friends and relatives that I would walk right in, unannounced and they would feel comfortable doing the same at my house.. but that's not what happened, he didn't walk into the "house".. he walked into an open garage... the next door, the one that takes you from the garage into the house, that's the big one. And the homeowner didn't wait to see if he was going to come through that one, he met him in the garage and shot him.. probably didn't want to get blood on the carpet.
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,607 |
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What kind of self-respecting 29 year old dude from Montana admits he has a hair stylist?
I used to go to a fantastic place all the time there. http://www.thehairheadquarters.com/ It was a Roosters at the time and got a great cut, shave, whisky, and massage for less than $20. Not sure if this new place is in fact new or just separated from the chain.
This actually surprises me as it was an incredibly safe place to live. I don't think anyone really locked their doors and you knew that just about everyone had a gun so nobody tried anything.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,607 |
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This guy was in Montana, so there's no telling how far away his police are.
This was in Missoula, a fairly large college town with a good sized police force. They were only minutes away.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
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If they turn to run, shoot faster.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204
~ Legend
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~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
I love to bait people into my home as it gives me free legal right to kill them.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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First, you changed nouns.. are we talking about property or house? Do you stand at the end of the driveway and yell to your friends that you would like to come up?
I'm talking property. If you're out for a walk in the woods, and come across a barbed wire fence, do you climb it? If someone has a gate across their driveway, do you go around it? Simple things like this say, 'keep out'. If someone has a structure with a door, it also says, 'keep out', even if the door is open. You should get permission or announce your presence. There shouldn't have to be a 'no trespassing' sign every 10 feet on every building.
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But to answer your question, yes I have a couple friends and relatives that I would walk right in, unannounced and they would feel comfortable doing the same at my house.. but that's not what happened, he didn't walk into the "house".. he walked into an open garage... the next door, the one that takes you from the garage into the house, that's the big one. And the homeowner didn't wait to see if he was going to come through that one, he met him in the garage and shot him.. probably didn't want to get blood on the carpet.
We don't know all the details, but the guy might have had valuables, a gun safe, stashed cash, or anything of value in that garage. Yes, I know he was shot in a garage, and the guy left his house to go out and shoot him. The kid should not have been trespassing. It might have been nicer for the homeowner to use a shotgun full of rocksalt, but he didn't.
As for you walking into or your friends walking right into each other's houses, you might one day get a surprise of something private going on. Hopefully it won't be too embarrassing. I just don't do that, as I was raised not to enter someone's house without being invited. It's rude.
BTW, the best 'no trespassing' sign I've ever seen said, "Trespassers will be Violated'. I kept out.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,807
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 74,807 |
Quote:
We don't know all the details, but the guy might have had valuables, a gun safe, stashed cash, or anything of value in that garage. Yes, I know he was shot in a garage, and the guy left his house to go out and shoot him. The kid should not have been trespassing. It might have been nicer for the homeowner to use a shotgun full of rocksalt, but he didn't.
What we do know is he purposefully set a trap to create the situation. Something all of your examples so far in no way address.
Like I said, no more surprise parties for grandma in the type of examples you have been using. You do realize people like yourself are doing more to show the extreme which is what those who promote anti gun legislation point to when actually gaining ground for their cause.
People promoting the right to set up traps in order to kill people is exactly the type of behavior the general public abhors. And rightfully so.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,991 |
Quote:
What we do know is he purposefully set a trap to create the situation. Something all of your examples so far in no way address.
Like I said, no more surprise parties for grandma in the type of examples you have been using. You do realize people like yourself are doing more to show the extreme which is what those who promote anti gun legislation point to when actually gaining ground for their cause.
People promoting the right to set up traps in order to kill people is exactly the type of behavior the general public abhors. And rightfully so.
People like me? I've never shot anything other than a paper target. I am not a person to set up traps. I have a right to own a gun, and if someone breaks into my house, I have a right to shoot them before I ask them their intentions. My warning is a sticker on my front and back door that says, "Have gun, will shoot", and I don't legally have to provide that much warning. The idea that I have to wait until threatened is a load of bull. If they are in my house uninvited, I will assume the worse, because if I wait until I know they mean me harm, it might be too late for me. If a person really doesn't want to get shot, they should practice the common courtesy of announcing their presence.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... German student Diren Dede killed
in 'castle doctrine' case
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