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You may have touched on part of the comprehension problem, here.
It takes maybe 10-20 seconds to empty a magazine, at the most one full minute.
In what time frame do you expect a police officer to arrive on scene? It is nowhere in the ballpark of the above intervals.
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I am in no way justifying the kid's actions. He too rolled the dice. As a responsible gun owner, one should not seek out or create situations that will result in someone getting shot, he should avoid them if at all possible. This guy obviously wanted to shoot someone, and manufactured a situation where he could. He is a cold blooded killer.
Or, he was simply sick of his home being burgled and sought to stop it from happening a third time. He stated that he believes the police weren't doing enough to stop the burglaries and when the people don't feel secure that the police are doing their jobs, they will try and help the police.
You see, we don't know the full facts of the situation, but only what is written in the newspaper.
I have further questions, like: How long was the deceased in the home? What did he do while he was there? It doesn't really make much difference, except that if he was there for 5 or 10 seconds, realizing that he was in a wrong place, he might have left. If he was there for a few minutes, digging through things before being killed, it would be something completely different. Maybe the video taken will shed some light on it.
Do you see what I mean?
Also, what if he had been confronted by an unarmed person, say a smaller young woman, a child, or an elderly person? Would he have left or might they have been forced to defend against an attack?
Of course, these are things we don't know. We weren't in the deceased's mind so we can't tell exactly why he was there or what he might have done if confronted.
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It's like the idea of a woman, armed with a handgun who is assaulted on the street by a would-be rapist. The rapist sees that she's pointing a gun at him and takes off running. She empties the magazine into him. When the police show up, they ask, "Why did you shoot him 10 times?" She replies, "Because I ran out of bullets."
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The concern is about a switch in our society toward accepting vigilante gun violence.
Maybe people are just getting sick of crime and the lack of punishment for the perpetrators. If the owner would have provided a description, chances are he'd never had been caught.
I'm curious if the burglaries in the area will suddenly stop.
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Erik, I don't think our thinking is really all that different, we just disagree on a couple details (all be it fairly important details)... Quote:
My wife woke up early one morning and found a kid we didn't know asleep on the couch. She went back up stairs, got her gun, and tapped the kid on the forehead with the barrel. Turns out, my idiot 22 YO invited his buddy who got kicked out of his house to spend a night on our couch, without asking us. He learned a good lesson too, and no shots were fired.
This is actually a perfect example... in reading some posts, had your wife shot the kid in his sleep, some would be ok with that. When in fact, he was invited into your home by one of your kids..
I will openly admit that I'm a trusting person by nature, I do not assume that anybody who walks up my driveway is there to steal, harm or cause problems.. quite the contrary.
I'll give you an example, last fall I got a text from my neighbor saying that he had people over and could he borrow a folding table. I said sure, it was in the garage but I was out and my wife was home with a migraine headache which pretty much incapacitates her. I texted him the code to the garage and he let himself into the garage, took the table, then let himself out.
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I realize the shooter had a problem with accepting burglaries and what he said was a lack of police response.
Have we decided as a culture that burglary automatically equates to a life threatening incident and we will allow home owners to shoot to kill?
Also there's been repeated analogies to rape. Entering an open garage is hardly in the same context of the assault and violence of a rape.
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What if it were your child or other family member in that garage and you didn't know it?
Not sure why I'm making this statement as I've ignored your's since you posted it but me being me I can't help it. If this was my child I would not be going and making a statement to the media about the homeowner shooting my child. Do I think it was right what this lunatic did, No!! but my child was raised to not steal from others, Not to be in another person's home uninvited. Should this guy set a trap to lure a thief into his home so he could kill them, No but first and foremost the kid should not have been there.
What's the difference in the police setting up prostitution sting where a female cop dresses up like a hooker? Can you blame it on the cop for dressing up like a hooker? Can you use a defense when you get caught. The cop baited me!
I said it before and I will say it again and people that make the comment "what if it was your child" never can grasp the concept of my statement but here it is!
I take full responsibility for my children's actions. I raised them and I know them. Every teacher that has ever taught my children have sought us out to tell us that our children were the Best student they have "Ever" had. The Professor of my oldest child that just graduated college just told us that my child was the best student He has Ever had.. Neighbors, friends, people in our Church, pretty much everyone that has come in to contact with my kids tell us they have never seen any kids like mine.. Respectful, honest, caring of other, ready to help others. They were raised to be this way... I can tell you for a fact my kids would not have been in this guy's garage to be shot..I just love the statement people make when taking the other side of my statements. "once your children become adults and have their own mind you can't guarantee what they'll do... I know what they do and I can guarantee the kind of young adults they are. Everyone makes mistakes but they know right from wrong..
The Views Expressed By Me Are Not Necessarily The Views That You Will Agree With, I'm In My Own Little World But They Know Me Here.
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I realize the shooter had a problem with accepting burglaries and what he said was a lack of police response.
Have we decided as a culture that burglary automatically equates to a life threatening incident and we will allow home owners to shoot to kill?
Also there's been repeated analogies to rape. Entering an open garage is hardly in the same context of the assault and violence of a rape.
If someone breaks in my home they're likely to get shot. Anyone that takes another stand point on this is crazy.... If I confront them in my living room with a shotgun and they turn to run towards the door I won't shoot them in the back... If they take any movement towards me or family member they will be getting shot. Guaranteed!! I will go as far to say if they don't turn to run or drop to their knees to surrender they will be getting shot!
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What's the difference in the police setting up prostitution sting where a female cop dresses up like a hooker? Can you blame it on the cop for dressing up like a hooker? Can you use a defense when you get caught. The cop baited me!
The difference is that those cops have to wait until legal criteria have been met before they make an arrest. There has to be an offer of cash for sex, then the guy is arrested because they understand the law and the guy gets his day in court to defend himself.
This guy set a trap, he is not a professional, and he went out and shot the kid in the dark before he ever knew why he was there, what his intentions were, etc.
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Quote:
Quote:
What's the difference in the police setting up prostitution sting where a female cop dresses up like a hooker? Can you blame it on the cop for dressing up like a hooker? Can you use a defense when you get caught. The cop baited me!
The difference is that those cops have to wait until legal criteria have been met before they make an arrest. There has to be an offer of cash for sex, then the guy is arrested because they understand the law and the guy gets his day in court to defend himself.
Couldn't Johns just say "I will not be paying you for sex", However, I would like to purchase this sock for $300 after we have our consensual non-prostitutive sex." ? 
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I believe you missed my meaning.
Let's say your child went to stay overnight with a friend. they decided to go surfing the next day, so your son decided to come home and get his surf board.
It was very late at night so he didn't wish to wake anyone. He went into the garage to get his surf board.
In the case we are hearing about, the guy didn't see the intruder, didn't know his intentions. He simply shot the figure in the dark.
So while your son may not have used the greatest logic, he would have died for that. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Secondly, and this is a general reply.
I keep hearing that this castle doctrine states clearly that a "forcible entry" is a part of it. There was no such thing in this instance. Nobody "broke in".
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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And I'm not disagreeing that this guy was wrong and I'm sure he will be convicted of something. He never should've baited or admitted to baiting, hard for me to understand what he was thinking for admitting to baiting, but my point I mostly was making was, I feel the biggest responsibility for this has got to lie with the kid.... Another point, someone earlier mentioned maybe this kid was never taught right from wrong... Possibly so but with the kid being German, I spent 2 yrs in Germany, the Polizei are not to be messed with... There is no such thing as police brutally.. I imagine most parents teach their children right from wrong...otherwise their kids might be killed by the police, let alone someone else. I just can't understand this Father overlooking that fact his child was trespassing when he was shot. Regardless of the gun laws being different. People need to take responsibility for their own actions!
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I believe you missed my meaning.
Let's say your child went to stay overnight with a friend. they decided to go surfing the next day, so your son decided to come home and get his surf board.
It was very late at night so he didn't wish to wake anyone. He went into the garage to get his surf board.
In the case we are hearing about, the guy didn't see the intruder, didn't know his intentions. He simply shot the figure in the dark.
So while your son may not have used the greatest logic, he would have died for that. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Secondly, and this is a general reply.
I keep hearing that this castle doctrine states clearly that a "forcible entry" is a part of it. There was no such thing in this instance. Nobody "broke in".
I admit anything is possible but I would know my child was home as I would see his car. He also would likely call to let me know he was coming home so I would know.
As for your second statement. I can't imagine it matters whether they're is forcible entry or the door is left unlocked. So you're saying if I don't lock my door and someone walks in my unlocked front door and rapes my wife and I catch him in the act I can't kill him cause the door was unlocked 
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The garage door was left wide open. It wasn't the house and nobody was in the garage.
Now if someone walked uninvited into your house, where your family actually was, I would see this quite differently.
But when someone walks into your open garage, who is threatened? That's one of several problems I have with this situation. This kid didn't force a confrontation with anyone. He didn't open a door or force entry. There was nobody in the garage to feel threatened. The homeowner created the confrontation. And he set a plan in motion with the intention to do so.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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The garage door was left wide open. It wasn't the house and nobody was in the garage.
Now if someone walked uninvited into your house, where your family actually was, I would see this quite differently.
But when someone walks into your open garage, who is threatened? That's one of several problems I have with this situation. This kid didn't force a confrontation with anyone. He didn't open a door or force entry. There was nobody in the garage to feel threatened. The homeowner created the confrontation. And he set a plan in motion with the intention to do so.
The problem I got was he admitted to baiting the kid... He clearly planned for a confrontation, which he got.... But again, I still blame the kid for taking the bait... Whether the house is locked or unlocked. The car locked or unlocked with the purse on the front seat. Regardless, if you take the purse, it is stealing... If you leave your keys in your car and it gets stolen it's still stealing!
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I do think this guy will be convicted regardless, I'm not condoning the way he went about his actions.... I just strongly feel that this kid should not have been in the garage
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Nobody is asking you what your kid would or wouldn't do. Pit is telling you that your kid went into someone's garage, got shot and is dead. What's your reaction?
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Quote:
The garage door was left wide open. It wasn't the house and nobody was in the garage.
Now if someone walked uninvited into your house, where your family actually was, I would see this quite differently.
But when someone walks into your open garage, who is threatened? That's one of several problems I have with this situation. This kid didn't force a confrontation with anyone. He didn't open a door or force entry. There was nobody in the garage to feel threatened. The homeowner created the confrontation. And he set a plan in motion with the intention to do so.
If I wake up in the middle of the night to a noise in my basement and I have accounted for the ware abouts of my wife and children then I can assure you I am going to immediately start to feel threatened... I live in the country, the only police that is going to respond to my 911 call will be the sheriff. If the sheriff happens to be on the other side of the county it could take sometime for them to get here so I'm going to have to take care of my family myself most likely..... I can tell you of a neighbors situation a couple years back.. Middle of the day two men tried breaking into their house. He was at work 60 miles away. Wife was home saw them trying to break in she ran to phone and called 911 which ended up scaring the guys away. Which was a good thing because after calling 911 she called her husband at work and he beat the sheriff to his house. Needless to say he wasn't too happy about this.. The Sheriff told him to call if he had any more Incidents. He told them if there was any more incidents he would be calling the coroner first..
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Nobody is asking you what your kid would or wouldn't do. Pit is telling you that your kid went into someone's garage, got shot and is dead. What's your reaction?
I think you can read my reaction by my previous statements. I will not be in the media saying this guy was wrong for shooting my kid as I already stated. My kid should not have been in the garage..... I do have a problem with the guy setting a trap but the kid still should not have taken the bait...
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So you'd have no problem if someone killed your kid for committing a crime? Really?
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Nobody is asking you what your kid would or wouldn't do. Pit is telling you that your kid went into someone's garage, got shot and is dead. What's your reaction?
.. Example 1..if you walk down the street at night in a bad neighborhood you might get mugged and killed....
Example 2... If you go to a bar you might get in a fight and maybe killed..
Example 3.... You go in someone's house uninvited you may be shot...
What I'm getting at is.. Yes you can be killed even though you may do everything right and go all the right place and try to avoid all the wrong places but sometimes and usually if you avoid certain things in life you likely won't be a victim.. Sometimes a person is a victim of their own actions... If you get my point!
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So you'd have no problem if someone killed your kid for committing a crime? Really?
If my child broke in someone's house and was shot I'm not going to blame the homeowner.. As I said I'm not comfortable with the Baiting but the kid Should Not Have Been In This Guy's House..... REALLY!!!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
So you'd have no problem if someone killed your kid for committing a crime? Really?
If my child broke in someone's house and was shot I'm not going to blame the homeowner.. As I said I'm not comfortable with the Baiting but the kid Should Not Have Been In This Guy's House..... REALLY!!!!!
I can't understand the logic behind your statement. If my child was committing a crime and was shot. How could I have a problem with it? How could I possibly say anything?
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Quote:
Quote:
So you'd have no problem if someone killed your kid for committing a crime? Really?
If my child broke in someone's house and was shot I'm not going to blame the homeowner.. As I said I'm not comfortable with the Baiting but the kid Should Not Have Been In This Guy's House..... REALLY!!!!!
I think that there has to be proportionality of response in these situations.
I wouldn't drop a nuclear weapon on a country for a diplomatic insult. I wouldn't kill a man because he said something bad about a member of my family. Would I kill a man who was actively attempting to kill my mother? If I had the ability to do so ..... probably. To save the life of someone I love, I would do things that I would not do under any other circumstance.
I don't love my "stuff" the same way I love people ...... and it's not even close. Even my most prized possessions are not worth someone's life. Proportionality of response has to play a part.
If someone broke into my garage and was stealing stuff, I would make sure the alarm was going off, call 911, and yell at the top of my lungs, while getting my dog to bark his head off at the intruder. Would I start shooting? No. I would not want the killing of another human being on my conscience because of stuff. It would not be worth living with that for the rest of my life over something that could be easily replaced.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Thanks for your response.
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Thanks for your response.
No problem!
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The problem I got was he admitted to baiting the kid...
I've got that problem.. but the bigger problem is that he went out to confront him, when the safer thing to do is stay inside.. and he shot him in the dark with no idea who he was or why he was there.
I'm not absolving the kid of being somewhere that he shouldn't have been, there are plenty of things to charge him with if he was there to steal a purse or whatever.. but death is a pretty steep price for attempting to stealing a purse...
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If I wake up in the middle of the night to a noise in my basement and I have accounted for the ware abouts of my wife and children then I can assure you I am going to immediately start to feel threatened... I live in the country, the only police that is going to respond to my 911 call will be the sheriff. If the sheriff happens to be on the other side of the county it could take sometime for them to get here so I'm going to have to take care of my family myself most likely.....
And this deals with someone actually being in your home, not outside of it in the garage. There is usually a locked door between your home and garage. The garage door was open and there is a locked door between your home and garage. I wouldn't actually feel threatened until an intruder tried to "break in", which is not the case here. Yes, if someone was actually in my basement, he is "inside my home". I would feel much differently at that point.
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I can tell you of a neighbors situation a couple years back.. Middle of the day two men tried breaking into their house. He was at work 60 miles away. Wife was home saw them trying to break in she ran to phone and called 911 which ended up scaring the guys away. Which was a good thing because after calling 911 she called her husband at work and he beat the sheriff to his house. Needless to say he wasn't too happy about this.. The Sheriff told him to call if he had any more Incidents. He told them if there was any more incidents he would be calling the coroner first..
But once again, we are talking about someone who broke into a home. Not walked into a garage. I guess to me that's another part of the equation.
I agree with you that this is a situation where the kid is partly to blame. There is no excuse for him to be there. I also don't believe that is nearly enough to excuse setting a trap with intent to kill someone.
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DC, I believe the question everyone is asking is when is it OK to shoot. As I related, my wife went upstairs to get her gun, as she wasn't about to confront some kid unarmed. She decided not to shoot him, as she could smell alcohol on his breath, and it might just have been some moron kid that walked in the house because my 22yo isn't that bright and forgets to lock the door. He was in a different room, by the way.
When do you shoot? I would shoot anytime I feel me or my family is threatened. Like the old saying goes, it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I have never fired my gun at any living target, nor do I want to ever have to fire my gun at a living target. The best way to never find out if I will is for someone not to test my resolve.
If this guy set a trap, ok. Let him be judged by 12. If that kid wouldn't have been in his garage, he wouldn't have been shot.
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So, we are to accept that our society has become so murderous that if someone were to break-in we should automatically shoot?
Are there real numbers indicating the death rate of home break-ins?
Also, what's the death rate from someone taking stuff from somebody else's garage?
Has it become epidemic?
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j/c
Castle doctrine or not........KNOW WHY YOU ARE SHOOTING, AND KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING.
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Quote:
So, we are to accept that our society has become so murderous that if someone were to break-in we should automatically shoot?
Are there real numbers indicating the death rate of home break-ins?
Also, what's the death rate from someone taking stuff from somebody else's garage?
Has it become epidemic?
Not really sure which side you are implying is murderous but if someone breaks in my home and I'm home unless they run I'm going to automatically shoot. I'm not going to wait to see what their intentions are. How can I? I'm sure they are aware of what they're doing. But they're obviously not aware of where they are!
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I will try and type this very slowly.
I live in Florida. I have mentioned this every time I have quoted the law, in Florida.
In Florida, the "forcible and illegal entry" clause in the Florida castle doctrine is intended to represent all that is necessary for the use of lethal force. The threat is implied, and may be assumed by the homeowner.
You are not REQUIRED to shoot. You may kill if you wish to.
Other states have dramatically different wording. As there are many retired Ohioans in Florida, our current law may be a reaction to the previous, bizarre Ohio law that actually required the homeowner to jump out a second-story window to avoid a confrontation in preference to defending their home or property.
A garage, ATTACHED TO THE HOUSE, is the same as the house. SFAIK, this is the same for all states.
A SEPARATE garage, NOT attached to the house, is usually not considered to be the same as the house. I DO NOT KNOW if the Florida law applies to a garage that is separate from the house.
The "forcible" part of the illegal entry seemed to be open to various definitions. It was very clear that an actual "breakage", or specific action to defeat some mechanism to prevent entry, was not explicitly required. Whether or not simply stepping across the threshold, an act which requires what could be called force, would qualify seemed to be open to question. This information comes from watching hearings and public commentary on the local government channel.
On the rapist question, it has always been the liberal viewpoint that first, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a woman to dress provocatively enough to entice rape, and second, how she was dressed was not at all relevant. Will victims of rape now have to prove that they were not "setting a trap"?
I find this whole "trap" business complete nonsense. This would not even be under discussion in a Florida court, IF that garage is attached. How they would view this particular incident for a separate building in unclear. However, a key point often mentioned was one person being "in a place they are legally allowed to be", which the homeowner WAS, and the trespasser was NOT.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
On the rapist question, it has always been the liberal viewpoint that first, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a woman to dress provocatively enough to entice rape, and second, how she was dressed was not at all relevant
That's more of a common sense viewpoint.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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DC, I believe the question everyone is asking is when is it OK to shoot.
I think there are two questions and this is probably the more important one. I would say the answer is that it is ok to shoot when you have reason to believe your life is threatened, not when your purse is threatened or when your car is threatened... just your life.
The second question is, how far should a citizen be allowed to go to bait a person into committing a crime.. Yes, I get that the person who falls for the bait is wrong, completely wrong, because in the end, they are still committing a crime. I don't care if a person leaves a 4" stack of $100 bills on their front porch, you STILL can't just go up and take them.. I get that and don't dispute it.
then you put the two together, where a person baits another person into committing a simple robbery for the sole purpose of shooting them well before your life is actually threatened and I think you have a very bad situation.
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Quote:
On the rapist question, it has always been the liberal viewpoint that first, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a woman to dress provocatively enough to entice rape, and second, how she was dressed was not at all relevant
That's more of a common sense viewpoint.
in what sense?
The Views Expressed By Me Are Not Necessarily The Views That You Will Agree With, I'm In My Own Little World But They Know Me Here.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
On the rapist question, it has always been the liberal viewpoint that first, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a woman to dress provocatively enough to entice rape, and second, how she was dressed was not at all relevant
That's more of a common sense viewpoint.
in what sense?
Common sense.
It's like saying if I wear Browns gear to a Steelers home game, I'm enticing drunks to punch me in the face.
You can follow lines of logic to make the conclusion, but you're essentially putting undue burden on the victim and rationalizing the behavior of the attacker.
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Legend
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Not so much in this case where he stated he was setting a trap and his intent was to stay up and shoot someone who took the bait.
He made a conscience effort to set up circumstances with the purpose to shoot someone. This shows premeditation and intent.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,428 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
On the rapist question, it has always been the liberal viewpoint that first, it is NOT POSSIBLE for a woman to dress provocatively enough to entice rape, and second, how she was dressed was not at all relevant
That's more of a common sense viewpoint.
in what sense?
Common sense.
It's like saying if I wear Browns gear to a Steelers home game, I'm enticing drunks to punch me in the face.
You can follow lines of logic to make the conclusion, but you're essentially putting undue burden on the victim and rationalizing the behavior of the attacker.
http://anabagail.wordpress.com/2014/03/10/rape-is-the-woman-ever-to-blame/
Written by a Woman! Let me set my view point straight. It is never legal or moral to rape a woman. But it's not common sense! Woman can provoke a man... Does it make it the woman fault a ultimately, No, but preventive measures could be taken... Like walking down a street in a bad neighborhood at night. I'm a man and feel I could protect myself if necessary but I'm not going to be walking in the neighborhood of my example.. And this is common sense...
The Views Expressed By Me Are Not Necessarily The Views That You Will Agree With, I'm In My Own Little World But They Know Me Here.
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