DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... German student Diren Dede killed in 'castle doctrine' case

Good post Clem. I don't see how anyone could consider this guy's actions anything but premeditated murder.

I am curious why you specify it is OK for an "Elderly" person to use a weapon, but apparently not everybody else. Do you see it as "more fair" because they are overmatched, being old?

There are many areas of life where "fairness" just does not apply. For someone illegally in my home, looking to do harm to me or my family, or looking to steal what I have worked hours, days, weeks, months, or even years to obtain, being "fair" with them is just not on my agenda.

In the garage case, nothing outside of ordinary, usual circumstances was created by the homeowner. He was inside his home when the incident began.

Someone made the analogy to a hunt, and applied it in a way I frankly find amazing. It is the homeowner, the productive citizen, who has found himself to be the prey animal. He has witnessed the very low odds of anyone catching the home invader, the extremely low odds of getting their hard-earned property returned, and then watched as these felons, after multiple offenses, get a slap on the wrist.

One of the largest and most populous states in the country has voted to put in place laws which allow the citizen to begin to redress this imbalance. Even in California, the land of the liberal, their law contains remarkably similar wording to that of the heinous rednecks in Florida, differing only by requiring "reasonable fear". That is a lot like requiring "forcible entry". Florida has simply recognized that is such a situation, "fear" is automatically "reasonable", and just left out that language.

We're tired of it. The old methods are not working. We're going to try something else. A vast majority, again of one of the most populous states in the country, is all for it.

Man, you really are a broken record. Only one play in your playbook, isn't there?

Why don't you just go troll somewhere else? You don't even make me laugh, anymore.

Although, picturing you in your basement apartment, fearfully peeking out the windows, while remaining ever vigilant against the upcoming Pistachio Pandemonium does make me chuckle, just a bit.

EDIT: We had a committee meeting, and the title of the upcoming top-secret operation may be changed to Nuts for Butts! It's currently tied with Pistachio Pandemonium, although both are solidly ahead of The Green Ream in the voting.

I guess dealing with antisocial, psychotic, paranoid, delusional personalities brings out my whimsical side.

Wow, this thread went way downhill ..... and considering the topis that began the thread, that's really saying something.

Refs, can we get this mess locked up or something.

I had a list and mentioned ice cream. Rape and Kill??? Exaggerate much?

Like I said, anti-social, psychotic, paranoid, and delusional.

Worthless troll.

Here is an update to this trial...


'Stand your ground' defense fails in Montana murder trial

By LISA BAUMANN
Associated Press

MISSOULA, Mont. (AP) - Just days before he shot to death a 17-year-old German exchange student, Markus Kaarma told hair stylists he had been waiting up to shoot some kids who were burglarizing homes.

He told them they would see it on the news.

Kaarma hoped to bait an intruder by leaving his garage door partially open and placing a purse inside, prosecutors said. And when he did, a motion detector alerted him early April 27. Kaarma took a shotgun outside and almost immediately fired four blasts into the garage. Diren Dede, unarmed, was hit twice. He died after the final shot hit him in the head.

For those reasons, Kaarma's "castle doctrine" defense, which allows people to use deadly force to protect their home and family, failed him Wednesday. A Missoula jury convicted him of deliberate homicide.

Cheers erupted in the packed Missoula courtroom when the verdict was read. Dede's parents, from Hamburg, Germany, hugged and cried.

"It is very good," Dede's father, Celal Dede, said with tears in his eyes. "Long live justice."

Kaarma faces a minimum penalty of 10 years in prison when he is sentenced Feb. 11. His lawyers plan to appeal.

On Thursday, Dede's parents will give statements to the judge to consider at sentencing. Prosecutors asked for the hearing so the couple won't have to return to Missoula in February.

Kaarma's case was the latest in a series in which the shooter had invoked the castle doctrine, testing the boundaries of self-defense law.

In May, a 65-year-old Minnesota man was convicted of murder after lying in wait in his basement for two teenagers and killing them during a break-in. In July, an 89-year-old North Carolina man shot and killed a 47-year-old tenant who angrily demanded the landlord fix his air conditioning. Prosecutors declined to file charges.

Last year in Florida, a jury acquitted security guard George Zimmerman in the 2012 shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman followed the teenager, contended the boy attacked him, and was acquitted of murder even though he was not at his home at the time of the shooting.

More than 30 U.S. states, including Montana, have laws expanding the right of people to use deadly force to protect their homes or themselves, some of them known as "stand your ground" laws. The self-defense principle known as the castle doctrine is a centuries-old premise that a person has the right to defend their home against attack. The name evokes the old saying, "my home is my castle."

University of Montana law professor Andrew King-Ries noted state law does allow homeowners to use deadly force to protect their property, but it requires them to act reasonably.

"What the jury's saying here is, you have a right to defend yourself, but this isn't reasonable," King-Ries said. "Lots of people have guns here, and lots of people feel very strongly that comes with a responsibility to handle your weapon appropriately."

Kaarma's attorneys argued at trial that he feared for his life, didn't know if the intruder was armed, and was on edge because his garage was burglarized at least once in the weeks before the shooting. They said Kaarma feared for his family's safety.

But jurors heard neighbors testify that Kaarma's girlfriend, Janelle Pflager, told them the couple planned to bait and catch a burglar themselves because they believed police weren't responding.

They also heard hair stylist Tanya Colby, who testified that Kaarma told her during a haircut: "I've been up three nights with a shotgun waiting to kill some kids." She said he later told her, "I'm not kidding, you're seriously going to see this on the news."

One of Kaarma's neighbors, Terry Klise, called the verdict a "huge weight lifted."

"The man was a threat to our neighborhood," Klise said of Kaarma.

The German government followed the case closely. Hamburg prosecutor Carsten Rinio said this week his office had been investigating the Dede case, as required under German law.

"We are really grateful to everybody involved and particularly impressed by the outpouring of sympathy that Diren's parents experienced here in Missoula," Julia Reinhardt, with the German consulate in San Francisco, said Wednesday.

I Agree with the outcome.

If you bait and wait, that is not defense, that is offense.

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