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Cool....I just hadn't heard anything. Thanks!
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Offset language is likely a dead issue Under the 2011 Collective Bargaining Agreement, players drafted have few issues about which to negotiate. For players taken at the top of the process, the biggest sticking point has emerged in connection with the issue of offset language. It’s a simple concept. The contracts at the top of the draft are fully guaranteed. With offset language, a team that cuts a player taken at the top of the draft within the four years of his contract receives a dollar-for-dollar credit if/when he lands with a new team. With no offset language, the player gets to double dip, keeping the money he gets under his rookie contract and pocketing whatever he makes elsewhere. Last year, teams took a hard line (collusion, anyone?) on the offset issue, and the players eventually blinked, in exchange for improved cash flow. Per a source with knowledge of the contract, the first top-10 draft pick who agreed to terms this year — Raiders linebacker Khalil Mack — has offset language in his deal. In return, Mack will get large chunks of his wages in 2015, 2016, and 2017 via guaranteed roster bonuses paid early in training camp. For 2015, it’s $758,955 on the third day of camp. In 2016, it’s $1.517 million. And for 2017, it’s $2.276 million. This indirectly gives Mack the ability to get paid twice by giving him the bulk of his pay well before the roster reduces to 53 players. Of course, the roster bonuses will force the team to make a decision about Mack before training camp in each and every year. It becomes even more important for the Raiders to make a decision before training camp in 2017, when $2.276 million of his $2.966 million in pay for the year becomes due on the third day of training camp. Look for other teams with top-10 picks to once again insist on the use of offset language (collusion, anyone?), with players agreeing to other terms that will get them their cash faster. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/18/offset-language-is-likely-a-dead-issue/
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Weeden's contract holdup was also offset language.
There is no settled answer on contract negotiations, With the salary aspect all but settled, agents are going to try and get as much for their clients as they can on the other aspects of th contract. Offset language is one of those negotiation points.
Overall, Gilbert is going to get a 4 year deal with a 5th year team option. He will probably get an almost completely guaranteed deal. The salary is already slotted. The signing bonus will almost certainly not be an issue.
The problem is the Rams.
Last year they took Tavon Austin at #8, and gave him a 5 year deal with no offset language.
Milliner, the #9 pick, did have offset language. So did last year's #7 pick, Jonathan Cooper. This year's #8 wants the same ;ack of offset that last year's pick had.
This year, 5 of the top 9 picks had offset language in their deals. (including top pick Clowney)
There really isn't much more beside that to argue about.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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~ Legend
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It seems like a dumb hang up. If we cut Gilbert while he's under his rookie contract then we should pay the penalty (for being dumb enough to cut him).
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Quote:
It seems like a dumb hang up. If we cut Gilbert while he's under his rookie contract then we should pay the penalty (for being dumb enough to cut him).
No player should have a roster spot guaranteed.
What if he takes a career path similar to the one taken by Brandon Weeden, or Montario Hardesty, or David Veikune?
We had partial offset language in Weeden's contract, and that helped save us some money this year against the cap.
Frankly, if I'm a 1st rounder and I believe in my talents, I take offset language without a problem. (with injury protections) Why not? If I think that I am going to be a great NFL player, then playing bad enough to get cut during my rookie deal should never even enter my mind.
It's not like the player isn't going to be paid. These high first rounders have guaranteed deals. All the team wants is the ability to recoup a very minimal amount of money if they have to cut the player, and someone else signs him to a new, much smaller deal. They just don't think that a player (and I agree) should get paid their guaranteed deal PLUS a new deal on top of that for playing so poorly that he has to be cut.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I believe you are only looking at this from one side. Those who make the selections should be held to the same standard as those being drafted. Let me counter what you're saying....
If a GM of an NFL team is so confident in his ability to draft players, why shouldn't he be more than willing to back that up with a fully guaranteed contract?
I don't discount what you are saying. But why are you excusing the people that overdrafted and reached for Brandon Weeden, Montario Hardesty, or David Veikune?
The people who drafted those players are just as much to blame as the players themselves. I'm not siding with the players on this. But it seems in your scenario you wish to lay full responsibility on the players while letting the FO off on the mistakes they make when drafting players.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Teams who draft in the position where guaranteed rookie contracts are the norm take that chance when they take any player ........
That said, a player should not be able to "double dip" just because he sucks enough to get cut.
The 7th rounder who get cut in training camp gets his bonus/minimum guarantee in the 1st year only, and he is off the books forever. Most 2nd rounders have much lesser guarantees. Joe Bitonio, for example, got a 4 year deal, and has roughly $4.2 million of his total $5.4 million deal guaranteed. he is darn close to being a 1st round pick.
Johnny Manziel also got a 4 year deal, and has $6.7 of $8.2 million guaranteed.
Teams try to get that offset language on the 100% guaranteed deals, so they aren't rewarding players for not playing up to expectations. (or even just "well")
If a guy making $4 million, for example, stinks ..... then another team decides to take a flyer on him .... (Like the Cowboys did on Weeden) then why should that under-performing player get more money than he originally signed for, because he stinks?
Weeden was originally signed for a 4 year contract, with the 1st 3 years fully guaranteed, and 2015 partially guaranteed.
He contributes nothing to us this year, and we guaranteed 100% of his 2014 salary, and $920k of his salary in 2015. But ..... because his contract has offsets, his Dallas paycheck cuts the Browns salary liability. Instead of having to pay him $1.12 million to not play here, we will instead only pay him the difference between what was guaranteed, and what Dallas will pay him. To me, this is incredibly fair, and opens up cap room for players who are actually helping your team.
if he were hurt and had to retire, for example, then he would have got his entire guarantee. These offsets are not a case of the player losing out because of something beyond his control. It is a player not performing to expectations, and in fact, performing so badly that he gets cut by the team that drafted him. It is that same player wanting to get paid twice, both by the team that had to cut him because of his incompetence, and the new team signing him, taking a chance that they might be able to repair him and make a serviceable player out of him. Frankly, I don't think that a player should get paid more, because he stunk to that extent.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think in the next CBA, or if they can alter it, you need to just either set a Pick # line, or just have it be all 1st rounders..
When one guy gets it at 10, the guy next year is going to want it. But what if #8 didn't?
Just set a standard for it, and basically almost make it like the NBA draft, where every pick is slotted money and contract wise...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Not all teams care about this.
The Rams, for example, haven't used the clause yet.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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So coaches who suck bad get paid in full. But not players. Once again, if they suck so bad, maybe it's the people who selected them who shouldn't be paid their entire contracts when they're fired?
It's a double standard that so many endorse.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
So coaches who suck bad get paid in full. But not players. Once again, if they suck so bad, maybe it's the people who selected them who shouldn't be paid their entire contracts when they're fired?
It's a double standard that so many endorse.
Yup, and for good reason.
When a coach is hired or fired, their money has absolutely zero impact on the team's CAP, nor its ability to get another player (financially).
When a player is cut/fired, it DOES affect the team in that way.
Thus, we don't care at all about the one (it's not our money), but we do care about the other.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
It seems like a dumb hang up. If we cut Gilbert while he's under his rookie contract then we should pay the penalty (for being dumb enough to cut him).
Don't you mean for being dumb enough to draft him?
yebat' Putin
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~ Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
It seems like a dumb hang up. If we cut Gilbert while he's under his rookie contract then we should pay the penalty (for being dumb enough to cut him).
Don't you mean for being dumb enough to draft him?
Usually (Viekune, Weeden, Hardesty), but I think Gilbert is going to be the real deal. So I stand by with what I said.
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Quote:
So coaches who suck bad get paid in full. But not players. Once again, if they suck so bad, maybe it's the people who selected them who shouldn't be paid their entire contracts when they're fired?
It's a double standard that so many endorse.
I'm confused...the offset language - which reportedly is the holdup on Gilbert signing - is about the possibility of getting paid by BOTH teams after a player is cut and later signed to a contract with the new team...right?
I think most deals with (fired) coaches work the same way?
I'm late to the party here...maybe you guys have moved beyond my questions above?
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What it boils down to, is if he gets cut by the Browns and signs somewhere else for less, the Browns must pay the difference so he makes the same amount as the Browns signed him to.
I can see both sides. However, rookie contracts are structured to be far less than they used to be. Which I think is fair so the vets who have earned more, get more.
But it amazes me that people want the players to take the hit if those who drafted them make mistakes in talent evaluation. I understand that it effects the salary cap. But one side simply says "My bad" and moves on for a total screw up while the other takes a huge financial hit.
At some point, those making the mistakes should be held to some financial obligation. But hey, if the GM screws up, no cost to the team.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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those that drafted him will be fired before he is released if he sucks. BTW most of these coaches head coaches have offset language as well. Its why few jump back in right after they have been fired. They take a year or two and receive that head coaching pay while they become a team adviser.
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Those that evaluate players poorly end up fired. I'd say that's paying the price for a poorly done job.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But it amazes me that people want the players to take the hit if those who drafted them make mistakes in talent evaluation.
But the player - paid handsomely to underachieve leading to his dismissal - should continue to be overpaid even when no longer on the team?
The player' s issue and deal is the player's issue and deal. The coach/GM likewise have their own.
If the player flames out, it isn't HIS fault...it's the fault of the guys who drafted him?
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Quote:
If the player flames out, it isn't HIS fault...it's the fault of the guys who drafted him?
Often times, yes. Players are drafted according to how well the GM believes that player is. On how well he will transition to the NFL. How well he will contribute to the team.
If that player works hard to try to accomplish these things and fails, then the person in charge of drafting him screwed up.
And yes, a GM who misses on "a lot of draft picks" will eventually be fired. But he will collect every dime of his contract when he is fired. Which is exactly what the players are asking for.
So basically what NFL teams are asking for is... We will sign you to a big contract, but if we screwed up, we don't actually have to live up to what we say we will pay you.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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j/c:
Wasn't it just last year that people were bad-mouthing the FO because of the off-set language w/Mingo? Why aren't you bad-mouthing this FO?
Different circumstances or bias?
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If that player works hard to try to accomplish these things and fails, then the person in charge of drafting him screwed up.
Are you kidding? Works hard? Who the hell decides whether he worked hard or not? If he flames out, it's because he didn't work hard enough. He did not do whatever it takes to earn that big contract.
He gets an $8 mil contract because he's supposed to be a stud? Then he's not a stud..but he works hard? So he gets the full monty of dough because he "works hard"?
Why aren't ALL the players paid the same so long as they all "work hard"?
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Quote:
j/c:
Wasn't it just last year that people were bad-mouthing the FO because of the off-set language w/Mingo? Why aren't you bad-mouthing this FO?
Different circumstances or bias?
No one but you gives a crap about what the past FO(s) have done...circumstances...bias...no one cares. Time to move on.
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I'm not really intending to bad mouth any FO. It's become a policy across the NFL. It's more of me actually questioning a policy that only expects accountability in one direction more than anything else.
And actually, if you look at it from the standpoint of the Browns, I am kind of bad mouthing them. I'm wondering why they won't back up their belief in the pick of Gilbert with money. Why they won't hold themselves accountable just as much as they do Gilbert.
That's what is holding up the signing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Are you kidding? Works hard? Who the hell decides whether he worked hard or not? If he flames out, it's because he didn't work hard enough. He did not do whatever it takes to earn that big contract.
And those who decided he was worthy of a top 10 pick messed up. Their evaluation was wrong. They decided he was worthy of a top pick and a huge money deal. So if that was a mistake, why is it only the player is responsible?
And what about fired coaches? They get their paychecks if they are fired even after they have proven they weren't able to do their job.
Quote:
He gets an $8 mil contract because he's supposed to be a stud? Then he's not a stud..but he works hard? So he gets the full monty of dough because he "works hard"?
Why aren't ALL the players paid the same so long as they all "work hard"?
And how about the responsibility of the person who selected him to be that stud? He somehow gets a free pass?
It's because those who get paid millions of dollars to decide who the best players will be made a choice to select them as one of the best players in the draft.
Hey, if you wish to hold NFL GM's and coaches to the same standard you advocate for the players, I'm with you. I just find it funny when people think the players shouldn't get paid if they're cut while those who screwed up the picks should get paid after they're fired.
If a player is selected top 10, then works hard but never pans out, isn't the person who selected him just as much to blame?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
It's become a policy across the NFL. It's more of me actually questioning a policy that only expects accountability in one direction more than anything else.
When things go bad, the boss wins. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong. There is no accountability UP, just down.
yebat' Putin
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Oh I understand that all too well. I just don't understand upholding it as though it is somehow right. 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
j/c:
Wasn't it just last year that people were bad-mouthing the FO because of the off-set language w/Mingo? Why aren't you bad-mouthing this FO?
Different circumstances or bias?
No one but you gives a crap about what the past FO(s) have done...circumstances...bias...no one cares. Time to move on.
Sorry to disagree w/you, Oh Relevant One..........but, when I see hypocrisy..........I am going to point it out. Move on that.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
j/c:
Wasn't it just last year that people were bad-mouthing the FO because of the off-set language w/Mingo? Why aren't you bad-mouthing this FO?
Different circumstances or bias?
No one but you gives a crap about what the past FO(s) have done...circumstances...bias...no one cares. Time to move on.
Sorry to disagree w/you, Oh Relevant One..........but, when I see hypocrisy..........I am going to point it out. Move on that.
And this post is the epitome of hypocrisy. Talk football man. In other threads you harp about people not bowing down to your football supremacy and you get agitated about it...........so talk football.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
j/c:
Wasn't it just last year that people were bad-mouthing the FO because of the off-set language w/Mingo? Why aren't you bad-mouthing this FO?
Different circumstances or bias?
No one but you gives a crap about what the past FO(s) have done...circumstances...bias...no one cares. Time to move on.
Sorry to disagree w/you, Oh Relevant One..........but, when I see hypocrisy..........I am going to point it out. Move on that.
And this post is the epitome of hypocrisy. Talk football man. In other threads you harp about people not bowing down to your football supremacy and you get agitated about it...........so talk football.
Post of the week. 
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So comparing how our Front Offices have signed players is NOT talking football?
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Ranting about 'agendas' isn't.
For the most part, the only time H&H come up is when you accuse people of having some bias towards H&H. You inject it into so many conversations where it doesn't belong.
You accused me of loving the regime once when I knocked Banner and Lombardi. And I never really cared for H&H.
When it comes to people pitting/comparing regimes with an agenda, no one on this board does it more than you. Sometimes you go out of your way to declare Mangini = GOOD, H&H = BAD, Banner/Lombardi = GOOD'.
Anyway...the short version?
You spend far more time complaining that people should talk more football and/or pointing out the hypocrisy of posters than you do talking football.
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Okay man. I will leave this thread alone, too. Happy now?
Good God.
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All I'm doing is pointing out the things that you do and say, and why it puts you at odds with other posters.
You act like I'm chasing you out of thread after thread.
If you're going to try and tell people how to act, expect a reflection in the mirror.
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Legend
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j/c
Football season can't get here fast enough.....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
j/c
Football season can't get here fast enough.....
Why, so you can start hating on Farmer? 
yebat' Putin
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2014 NFL Season NFL Draft 2014 Browns select Justin Gilbert with
the 8th overall pick
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