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Quote:
The fact the Browns got another 1st rounder for a guy who I didn't think was all that special of a WR is daylight robbery.
I was giddy, literally giddy.
Watkins is not a special WR talent, never thought he was.
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I'll be fully honest here and please don't bash me too hard for playing that card, but I think part of Teddy's fall is "racial" bias.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
I'll be fully honest here and please don't bash me too hard for playing that card, but I think part of Teddy's fall is "racial" bias.
I did find it very odd that they showed highlights for Manziel and Bortles and negatives/lowlights clips for Teddy. I'll be honest, I shied away from saying it, but I can't say you're off base here.
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You can question the moves back up, but if you want a player, go get them.
I am sure that Manziel would not have been sitting at 26, my guess is that Minny would have jumped in front.
There was good potential that Minny could have taken Gilbert as well.
If you choose to believe Jay Glazer, he has stated the Vikings had a deal working to trade back up and get Manziel, but the Browns came in with a better offer and landed the pick.
I strongly advocated taking a non-QB with our first pick then trading up to get whichever QB we liked from 26. The Browns not only got the best CB in the draft but did manage to trade back up and still get the QB most thought we'd take at 4.
The Browns aced the 1st round, although giving up a 5th rounder to switch spots has me
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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The whole damn thing is an A+. Seriously, I thought it was totally masterful. It was a huge gamble IMO but this is what they did and effectively how they got it.
Got one of the top 2 CBs in the draft (maybe the top.)
Got one of the top 2 QBs in the draft (maybe the top.)
Cost to do this was to move a mid-3rd back to a 4th rounder.
Traded this year's 5th for the Bills' 1st rounder next year.
A damned +.
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Quote:
Quote:
The fact the Browns got another 1st rounder for a guy who I didn't think was all that special of a WR is daylight robbery.
I was giddy, literally giddy.
Watkins is not a special WR talent, never thought he was.
I'm still giddy. i can't believe how well the whole thing played out.
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I strongly advocated taking a non-QB with our first pick then trading up to get whichever QB we liked from 26. The Browns not only got the best CB in the draft but did manage to trade back up and still get the QB most thought we'd take at 4.
You were right.  I still think it was very risky and could have ended up very expensive, but they gambles and won BIG TIME. Getting the players they got for essentially nothing AND scoring a first from the Bills next year was just incredible.
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The Browns aced the 1st round, although giving up a 5th rounder to switch spots has me
If they thought Gilbert was that much better than Fuller then I'm all for it. Of course, I was stunned when they picked him, but really they gave away essentially nothing to get what they got, AND they added a 1st rounder next year.
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2nd String
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To add to the greatness. Here are the Bills draft slots the last 10 years.
2013: started at 8 and traded back to 16
2012: pick 10
2011: pick 3
2010: pick 9
2009: pick 11
2008: pick 11
2007: pick 12
2006: pick 8
2005: traded pick to Cowboys the season before but ends up being pick 11
2004: pick 13
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Maybe the Vikings wanted to trade to 22 for Teddy, thinking we might go for him? After all, they ended up trading up for him at 32, right? I do believe the Lion to 8 for Gilbert rumors make more sense than this scenario, but both are possible
It was an ABCD day one for me:
A = 1st trade
B = Gilbert pick
C = trade up cost 2nd trade
D = Manziel pick over Teddy
That's that? B-? Probably more like a C+ considering the importance of the QB position, with most of the good of this grade punted into "next draft"....again
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Hog Wash !
Again, I'm not saying it was conscious racism, but as the character Brother Mouzon famously said in The Wire: "You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? A [black] with a library card."
It's unknown territory in the NFL and I think scouts still think in "black QB = athlete" terms and are kind of scared and freeze when a black QB is more celebral than athletic.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Borrowing Excel's format (get it!?)
Trade from #4 to #9: A-
Rewards exceeded cost
Trade from #9 to #8: D
As excel said, sounds like we got conned. Whatever.
Drafting Justin Gilbert: A
Very good player, value selections at position of need.
Moving up 4 spots for a 3rd rounder: B.
Sounds like Minny was looking to swipe. I have no problem with the aggressive move to get your guy but then....
Drafting Johnny Manziel: F
Sorry. I just don't think he's going to be good consistently in NFL. I can go on ad-nauseum why I don't think he'll add up to much in the NFL but you can go to the Johhny thread for that. This was a total miss and wasted pick.
Overall First Round: C+
Got a top flight corner and the Bill's 1st & 4th next year. Would have been an A had we drafted just about anyone else with that 2nd pick. Got a major future distraction and possible negative course changer in the Johnny. Hard to quantify that damage.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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No disrespect DJ , But Hog Wash !
Now on to important subjects .. OL iLB WR ... Whats the order we draft them in ?
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Trading down to get Gilbert and securing another first round pick in 2015. That is an A+ (Filled a need with perhaps the best CB in the draft and getting an additional first rounder in 2015, what is not to like).
Getting Manziel with #22 is an A. Getting the best QB in the draft, in my opinion, and getting him pretty cheap.
Farmer gets an A for the first round.
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Legend
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This draft is very hard for me to grade.
It is not the way I wanted this to go at all. I guess I will come to grips with it and let it play out. Hoping that it works in the end.
The trade to get Gilbert I can understand. Farmer and Petine made this decision and targeted Gilbert. I figured a corner was in play when they went after Revis. Farmer wanted to help his coach and having two corners of the caliber of Haden and Gilbert make sense in the defense that Petine wants to run. I can accept the move. Getting picks for next year? I would rather have had a second and third this year.
At the same time you let two players in Watkins and Mack get away. Two guys that most felt were the cream of this years crop. Mack a great player but necessarily a good fit. Watkins a player that really could have made the offense special. Who would have the greatest impact Gilbert or Watkins?
Now at 22 they give up a third and they take Manziel. Manziel over Bridgewater; not to my way of thinking. The Browns have been looking for a quarterback since Richardson was traded. They looked at them all and cast their lot on Manziel. In my mind taking Manziel over Bridgewater will prove to be colossal mistake. I hope I am wrong but that is the way I see it.
In the end analysis the Browns could have had the best receiver and the best quarterback in the draft. They were 27th in scoring offense in 2013. They had the opportunity to turn that around and went in another direction.
Grading drafts at this point is absurd. The entire draft is still to be decided. No matter what anyones believes the drafted players have to play in the NFL to determine what grade is real.
After this draft is in the books the only thing I want is to win. If the draft proves to help the team become a champion then I will be happy.
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I don't think that played into it. Of course, we'll never really know. But my feeling is that Teddy dropped either because he was 1. Never really rated that high by teams, or 2. bad showing at his proday..
My guess is that it's number 1.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Maybe the Vikings wanted to trade to 22 for Teddy, thinking we might go for him? After all, they ended up trading up for him at 32, right? I do believe the Lion to 8 for Gilbert rumors make more sense than this scenario, but both are possible
I tend to believe that common sense says if they were willing to pull the trigger on Bridgewater at 22, they wouldn't then wait until 32 to go get him.
I truly believed Bridgewater was the best QB in this class. I still believe it now, though I didn't have him head-and-shoulders above Manziel and Bortles. I didn't truly believe he'd end up only going at the last pick in the 1st round because a team traded up to get him. In the end it sure seems as though we got the QB we wanted while the Vikings didn't, and in the process we managed to acquire the Bills 1st rounder next year as well.
It could turn out to backfire just like the Quinn deal, but for the here-and-now I love how it played out.
Now because that's how I wanted it to go...it's certain to fail. Steve, feel free to remind me of this in 4 years when we're drafting our next franchise QB. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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In the end analysis the Browns could have had the best receiver and the best quarterback in the draft. They were 27th in scoring offense in 2013. They had the opportunity to turn that around and went in another direction.
The thing is, we still might end up with the best receiver. Watkins has a great set of skills, but Lee excelled in an offense that translates readily to the NFL. Watkins has really good route hands and speed and tackle-breaking ability, but at Clemson the only ran screens, slants, flys, and fades. Lee can run every route on the tree and does it better than anyone else in the class.
I'm not saying Lee is better than Watkins, I'm saying it's an unknown. It's not like Wheel of Fortune where you pick an envelope and they open it up and show you what you've got... the player still has to go and develop himself and perform.
JMO anyways.
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Now because that's how I wanted it to go...it's certain to fail. Steve, feel free to remind me of this in 4 years when we're drafting our next franchise QB.
Well, I'm swimming in that same pool on the Manziel selection, so if it fails I'm right there in the muck with you.
But as far as the plan, it succeeded in spades. I still think it was a huge gamble, but it honestly worked to perfection and I don't think it could have gone any better.
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Watching college football, I thought Manziel was head and shoulders above Bridgewater.
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Trade from #4 to #9: A+
+Future 1st and Future 4th is well worth it
Trade from #9 to #8: B+
+To guarantee you get the guy you want, this is a no brainer. Would I rather have given up a 6th or 7th sure, but if we wanted Gilbert, a 5th is a fine price to pay to guarantee it.
Drafting Justin Gilbert: A
Very good player, value selections at position of need.
Moving up 4 spots for a 3rd rounder: B-
+This is a bit expensive, but again, to guarantee you get the guy you want, this is a no brainer. The Browns were supposedly on the phones starting at #11, which would have likely cost them the 1st we got from Buffalo and #26, maybe more...I'm glad we waited, but would have preferred to just stand pat at 26.
Drafting Johnny Manziel: C+
Not a fan of drafting him, but he's a Brown and I'll cheer for him as hard as anyone else on the team. Considering he was talked about as the first overall pick, as well as top 10 by just about every pundit, this was a good deal. I just hope he's ticked off that he lasted to 22 and plays like it every day.
Overall First Round: B+
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The trade down was beautiful, I like extra high picks.
We got the best CB in the class, pushing Skrine back to slot, which, with our DL, pass rush, and improved Safety coverage, plus the Run D we had for most of last year, our D could be scary good. Plus, we have actual NFL-quality running backs this year, and a real fullback.
We blew a couple extra, low picks on some move ups. Then, as a free bonus from the mind-boggling TRich trade, we got this midget from Texas who's gonna try out at QB. Still got our high 2nd, high third, and lower picks.
I just don't think Manziel's game will translate to the NFL, plus he's too small. IMO there's a slight chance he could be our Broadway Joe, or maybe a part-time, change-of-pace QB.
IF Hoyer beats him out in camp, it will be very telling how he handles it.
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I agree with you and Toad that "the plan" they had worked out pretty good, although it was very risky, personal prospect bias aside. I just hope Manziel was "their guy" and that Haslam didn't pull a Holmgren there
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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A+ Got a good CB and a franchise QB!
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Legend
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Edit:
Mack a great player but "not" necessarily a good fit.
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Quote:
Quote:
In the end analysis the Browns could have had the best receiver and the best quarterback in the draft. They were 27th in scoring offense in 2013. They had the opportunity to turn that around and went in another direction.
The thing is, we still might end up with the best receiver. Watkins has a great set of skills, but Lee excelled in an offense that translates readily to the NFL. Watkins has really good route hands and speed and tackle-breaking ability, but at Clemson the only ran screens, slants, flys, and fades. Lee can run every route on the tree and does it better than anyone else in the class.
I'm not saying Lee is better than Watkins, I'm saying it's an unknown. It's not like Wheel of Fortune where you pick an envelope and they open it up and show you what you've got... the player still has to go and develop himself and perform.
JMO anyways.
there is a reason that Lee is the only WR in recent history to be a finalist for the Heisman trophy
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Edit:
Mack a great player but "not" necessarily a good fit.
Heard former coach Steve Logan on the radio yesterday, he was talking about Clowney.. and he said in his southern dialect.. I hear people say he might not fit into the Texans system, if you've got a system that can't find a way to use the best player in the draft... maybe you need to rethink your system.
yebat' Putin
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The 1st round was a smashing success.
The Browns seemingly got the players they really wanted,plus an extra 1st rounder next year,for little to no cost.
Who the Browns selected is irrelevant,it's the fact that they got who they wanted is the determining fact.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Watching college football, I thought Manziel was head and shoulders above Bridgewater.
... in college football.
"Team Chemistry No Match for Team Biology" (Onion Sports Headline)
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Grading drafts at this point is absurd. The entire draft is still to be decided. No matter what anyones believes the drafted players have to play in the NFL to determine what grade is real.
===================================================
Watkins is my mind has unique skills. He has the body. He has the speed and quickness. He has great hands. He has attitude to be the best. But what makes him unique is after the catch he becomes a running back. Taj Boyd did not have the skill to showcase Watkins.
Lee is the typical receiver. Slight frame built for speed and quickness. Nothing wrong with the kid. He runs the route tree and catches the ball well. Played great for two years then got hurt last year. He was not selected in the first round. Not in the same class as Watkins.
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maybe I'm totally wrong I think you are totally wrong... 
Although it was a dilemma as clearly he was the #1 pick and at least the #1 QB to be drafted when the real football ended. But it was so so clear that he was dropping like a wet rag. I couldn't believe it myself cause I thought/think he is very good.
The only thing that came to mind (not racism - not even a smidgen) But it had to do with his hands...the glove throughout his career - the none gloves in his Pro-day, putting the gloves back on. His hands aren't Frye small but small for a QB and somebody can measure 9 1/4" but have shorter fingers then a normal 9 1/4" hand - Pinky to thumb spread out but if the hand is wide and fingers short then what?
All the descriptions of his throws were play by play stuff of small hands. To the tee. That is when he who I thought was nothing but the Overall #1 pick was not for us and torn as he was dropping...will we pick Teddy? Great or Scared.
Johnny M...I'm more comfortable with. Cause he has shown great strides in IMPROVEMENT. Which is an indicator that he can improve and that he wants to improve. People talk about his fragility??? I'm like huh? The kid is tough as nails and he is able to relax as great athletes do and absorb hits...(why drunk drivers survive car crashes)
Any ways he did drop but I really don't think there is any bit of race bias in there. Possibly some physical bias like hand size...betcha in all their workouts they all looked down at his hand when they shook it 
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Just the workout numbers: Watkins: 4.39 forty, 1.54 10split, 2.52 20split, 16 bench, 34 vertical, 10'6' broad, 4.34 Sshuttle, 6.95 3cone M.Lee: 4.43 forty, 1.57 10split, 2.50 20 split, 11 bench, 38 (!) vertical, 10'7' broad, 4.01 Sshuttle, 6.96 3cone and he's the more complete football player. Just pick Lee, so that I can pretend that we picked him at 22 for the 3rd and Maziel at 35. Would make me much happier
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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All Pro
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Trade from 4 to 9
A+
I'm a firm believer in taking the "money" positions high in the draft - QB, LT, Pass rusher, and CB. There was no QB or CB that would be a good value at 4, IMO, and I don't think the team had a need for a LT (Matthews) or a pass rusher (Mack) at 4. So trading down to 9, where Gilbert is a good value, while picking up a 2015 1st and 4th is a home run.
Trade from 9 to 8 for Gilbert
A
If the Browns had reason to believe someone else was talking to the Vikings about trading up for Gilbert, whether or not it was actually true, then I have no problem giving up a 5th round to guarantee getting the guy that the coaches say best fits the scheme. Gilbert has serious speed, insane length (33" arms), great ball skills, and can be a factor in the return game if necessary, although I'd prefer not to put a starting CB on special teams to take hits.
Trade from 26 to 22 for Manziel
A
Again, if the Browns had reason to believe other teams were attempting to trade up for Manziel or that the Chiefs would take him at 23, both of which seem like legitimate possibilities, I don't mind giving up a 3rd rounder to guarantee getting the guy you want, and since they took him I am trusting Manziel is the guy the Browns wanted. I might have gone Bridgewater, but I think Manziel is a natural leader and playmaker with a much better work ethic than anyone gives him credit for, so I understand it and support it. Walking out of this draft with either Bridgewater or Manziel was a must, IMO.
Overall
A+
Taken as a whole, I think the first round was a huge success. Farmer played the draft incredibly well, acquiring two of the money positions (QB and CB), a future 1st round pick, and a future 4th round pick. He seems to have gotten the players he wanted while still being able to accumulate future picks, successfully balancing present and future interests.
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Played great for two years then got hurt last year. He was not selected in the first round. Not in the same class as Watkins.
He wasn't selected in the first round *because* he got hurt last year. People were talking of him as being a top 10 pick until he was injured. I think a lot depends on what the doctors say, but I really think he could be first round value in the second round here.
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I'll be fully honest here and please don't bash me too hard for playing that card, but I think part of Teddy's fall is "racial" bias.
It's possible, but I think it has more to do with the GMs being gutless. Everyone is afraid to pick the wrong QB and lose their job, so they just punt the decision or decide they'll take who is left.
Now the Texans are faced with either taking Carr (which is probably the worst possible place he could have ended up) after Carr having failed there a decade ago or taking a decidedly-lesser talent. Oops. Well, at least they got their shiny new toy in Clowney. Hope they can win 10-7. I wouldn't be surprsied if they take Mettenberger, maybe after they trade down a little bit.
Tennessee... who are they going to play at QB? They didn't extend Locker, they're not going to get Carr unless they trade up ahead of the Raiders.
Tampa Bay is sticking with Glennon. OK, enjoy staying in last place in your division barring an injury to another team in the South's quarterback (noticing a pattern here?)
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Quote:
Just the workout numbers:
Watkins: 4.39 forty, 1.54 10split, 2.52 20split, 16 bench, 34 vertical, 10'6' broad, 4.34 Sshuttle, 6.95 3cone
M.Lee: 4.43 forty, 1.57 10split, 2.50 20 split, 11 bench, 38 (!) vertical, 10'7' broad, 4.01 Sshuttle, 6.96 3cone
and he's the more complete football player. Just pick Lee, so that I can pretend that we picked him at 22 for the 3rd and Maziel at 35. Would make me much happier
Matthews: 4.44 forty, 1.55 10split, 2.61 20 split, 21 bench, 35.5 vertical, 10' broad, 4.18 Sshuttle, 6.95 3cone
- and that is at 6'3" and 215 lb...
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Overall, I don't know how the picks will work out and I really wanted Sammy across from Josh.
However, I thought that Farmer was Ozzie like working the board and getting one of the top 2 CB and Johnny Football AND Buffalo's #1 next year is A+.
I think that now finally we are not the laughing stock of the league. We have lots of pieces in place and lets see if we can get that swag back.
Listened to couple of national shows last night/this morning and everyone was talking about us. Talking about firing up the pound and getting us on Sunday night games this year.
I also heard that we sold 1200 season tickets during the night and already there are Johnny Browns jerseys on sale.
Good day to be alive but we have more work to do
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No disrespect DJ , But Hog Wash !
I agree. If there was a Black Peyton Manning or Andrew Luck in this draft, he would have been the 1st overall pick.
While Bridgewater is a solid looking prospect, he is a kid without any really elite characteristics. He is experienced in a pro style offense, but his pro day had to scare a lot of teams. You look at a guy's body of work, but when he then lays as huge an egg as Bridgewater did, it makes teams not only question what they saw on tape, but also if there may be a hidden injury. His Pro Day accuracy and ball placement were exceptionally horrible, from what I could see.
In a QB driven league, if teams felt that Bridgewater was, hands down, the best QB in the draft, and worthy of a high draft pick, then they would have taken him at the top if the draft. The position is that important.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,510 |
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It could turn out to backfire just like the Quinn deal, but for the here-and-now I love how it played out.
Not to mention that Quinn cost us far more. He cost us a 1st and a really high 2nd ...... while Manziel cost us a very low , extra 1st round pick, and the lower of 2 third round picks we had.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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