Quote: I would like devante adams or allen robinson in the second. Possibly trade down and still get one of them. Come back in the third and grab richburg? The center from colorado st. He has played guard and could possibly come in and start there. Round four, I would like the rb out of towson.
Not sure what picks are left, but if we can add an inside lb and either brooks or ladler at safety too...
Man there are worlds between Brooks' and Ladler's tape
Same with Lee/Matthews and Adams/Robinson....we're talking two different tiers imho. Adams is pretty much a raw project like Latimer and Moncrief, maybe a little bit further, but still won't give us much his rook season. Heck, I even think Lee is in another tier than Matthews. I would take him over any 3rd round trade offer we'd get, because if we traded up from 35 with one of OUR 3rds, I would have called it a steal to take Lee at the end of the 1st. We got lucky that Carolina thought they have to pick a bigger go-to WR and Lee is probably viewed as a WR2-only by some. His game is really underrated.
Lee would be a PERFECT fit for Manziel, as he does a lot of the little stuff to complement Johnny's game. He's a team player and a QB's best friend. Maybe his medical has some red flags and it's the only reason he has dropped out of the 1st...then again, maybe teams wait on WR because they think it's so deep and that's why he dropped. If it's the latter, we HAVE TO reap the value here.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
I just don't see the "perfect fit for Manziel" - Lee is a timing receiver, Manziel is not a QB who has great timing. And due to his height (and the ever changing throwing lanes) - he never will be.
Lee will certainly be an improvement over what we have - but I'm not sure that you can have a receiver who can't make the contested catch to go along with Manziel.
Lee can't make contested catches? That's news to me
The biggest fit I see is that Lee is a great situational football player. He understands down and distance and he is the best at working back and adjusting to the action on the field. That's exactly what we need in general for our WRs and especially with Manziel at QB. Gordon will run his route and then throw his hands up if he doesn't get the target, at least the Gordon of last season, maybe he imtpoes on that. Lee is already better at that than anyone we have or is left in the draft imho. He isn't the most athletic, but he is by far the best football player left in this WR class
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
If NFL lineage is important, than Jordan Matthews is set. He is a relative of GOAT WR Jerry Rice. If college competition is important, then Jordan Matthews is set. He is the all-time SEC leader in receptions, receiving yards, and is a two-time All-SEC player. If measurables are important, then Jordan Matthews is set. He is big (6’3”, 215 lbs, 10 ¾” hands), fast (4.46-40, 4.18-20-shuttle), and strong (21 rep bench). If character is important, then Jordan Matthews is set as he has been as non-diva as you can get as a WR and says and does all the correct things by all accounts (including willingness to block). The reason that he is a step down from the top five guys is that he can struggle to release in press coverage, he doesn’t do double-moves all that well, and has bad habits with trapping the ball against his body in tight coverage.
Marquise Lee doesn't do the same as Matthews in measurables (5'11", 190lbs, 9 1/2" hands, 4.52-40, 38" vertical A& 4.01-20ydshuttle though) and he had a ridiculously rough childhood (brothers in gangs/jail, bounced around foster system), but he is a much more refined receiver. His routes are impeccable, he catches the ball with his hands, he isn't afraid of going into traffic, he is very good at avoiding contact after the catch, and is one of the best "outfielder" receivers you can get (tracking deep ball flights). There is a reason that he is the only WR Heisman finalist in recent history. Now, he played hurt last year and those injuries are a concern moving forward. I think it comes down to if you think he can stay healthy. If yes, he's better than Matthews IMO despite the size difference.
Van Noy, I believe, could be our WILB. He is being touted as OLB for the purposes of the NFL draft, but also both possess the quickness, reaction time, and fluidity in coverage to handle the WILB spot for our defense. In addition, since Pettine wants to use a hybrid front, he is the ideal guy you would like to be at WOLB when we show a 4-3 look. Van Noy is much better at shedding oncoming blockers than the other LBers in this class and also is good in coverage, which believe to be essential skills in this role.
Last edited by no_logo_required; 05/09/1409:36 AM.
Waltersfootball rated Manziel and Gilbert as the top prospect updated in their respected field. Qb and Wr. Filo is the top rated Guard followed by Yankey which for me either one would be a great fit . Filo or whatever his full name is a quick footed mauler at guard which will help protect Hoyer or Johnny and open lanes for Tate. My pick is Filo at guard
We just drafted a very small pinball of a QB. We already have two pro-bowl caliber weapons for him to throw to, but we are very short on quality guards.
We moved up in the 1st round to draft a franchise QB. Protect him. Take the offensive lineman.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
We have more holes than we can fill in this draft sadly. I don't know how to prioritize OG, ILB, WR, and FS.
One thing not being addressed much I'm curious about. Are there any good Free Safeties left? A true ball hawk back there without having to rely on Gipson would excite me.
We really really gotta upgrade at ILB. Wasn't Robertson one of the lowest ranked ILBs last season? (like dead last if I remember correctly).
I'm worried we just took Gilbert but if last season repeats we'll just get torched by weak coverage over the center over and over again.
Honestly I'll be happy if any of those four positions is addressed. I'll take the Vandy guy over Lee personally. 5'11'' and family history problems vs. 6'3'' and related to Jerry Rice? I'm a very "toss it up for grabs" kind of guy, I'll take the 6'3'' guy any day. Makes me happy we drafted Manziel, I want someone willing to just throw the ball to Gordon and accept that he'll probably make the catch regardless of coverage.
That's 1 or 2 more "drops" over the course of a season. His hands are not an issue when you watch some of his grabs ove the past 2 seasons. Some of those drops might have been in situations that he put himself to catch the ball to begin with
And Toad, I guess you haven't watched XSF play. I agree, if I just read profiles of him, I'd think he'd be a win at this point, but if you actually watch him play, he's awful on contact and that's an OL job, lol. That's the problem with only reading profiles and reading stats. Haven't you learned anything from pimping Jarvis Jones last draft?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: That's 1 or 2 more "drops" over the course of a season. His hands are not an issue when you watch some of his grabs ove the past 2 seasons. Some of those drops might have been in situations that he put himself to catch the ball to begin with
And Toad, I guess you haven't watched XSF play. I agree, if I just read profiles of him, I'd think he'd be a win at this point, but if you actually watch him play, he's awful on contact and that's an OL job, lol. That's the problem with only reading profiles and reading stats. Haven't you learned anything from pimping Jarvis Jones last draft?
Screw Lee. Dude can't catch. SICK of that crap.
Mathews and Adams. The ONLY 2 we should look at. MORE SIZE.
I'm still planning to go watch Lee (along with basically everybody else mentioned here) when I get back from work tonight (before the draft starts). I was actually really pimping him before the draft as the number 4 wideout (behind Watkins/Evans/Cooks). And I still like him quite a lot. If we had taken Bridgewater at 22, I would be pimping him really hard right now.
I'm just not sure he's the best fit alongside JFF.
Quote: If NFL lineage is important, than Jordan Matthews is set. He is a relative of GOAT WR Jerry Rice. If college competition is important, then Jordan Matthews is set. He is the all-time SEC leader in receptions, receiving yards, and is a two-time All-SEC player. If measurables are important, then Jordan Matthews is set. He is big (6’3”, 215 lbs, 10 ¾” hands), fast (4.46-40, 4.18-20-shuttle), and strong (21 rep bench). If character is important, then Jordan Matthews is set as he has been as non-diva as you can get as a WR and says and does all the correct things by all accounts (including willingness to block). The reason that he is a step down from the top five guys is that he can struggle to release in press coverage, he doesn’t do double-moves all that well, and has bad habits with trapping the ball against his body in tight coverage.
Marquise Lee doesn't do the same as Matthews in measurables (5'11", 190lbs, 9 1/2" hands, 4.52-40, 38" vertical A& 4.01-20ydshuttle though) and he had a ridiculously rough childhood (brothers in gangs/jail, bounced around foster system), but he is a much more refined receiver. His routes are impeccable, he catches the ball with his hands, he isn't afraid of going into traffic, he is very good at avoiding contact after the catch, and is one of the best "outfielder" receivers you can get (tracking deep ball flights). There is a reason that he is the only WR Heisman finalist in recent history. Now, he played hurt last year and those injuries are a concern moving forward. I think it comes down to if you think he can stay healthy. If yes, he's better than Matthews IMO despite the size difference.
Excellent rundown. Totally agree on both guys.
Quote: Van Noy, I believe, could be our WILB. He is being touted as OLB for the purposes of the NFL draft, but also both possess the quickness, reaction time, and fluidity in coverage to handle the WILB spot for our defense. In addition, since Pettine wants to use a hybrid front, he is the ideal guy you would like to be at WOLB when we show a 4-3 look. Van Noy is much better at shedding oncoming blockers than the other LBers in this class and also is good in coverage, which believe to be essential skills in this role.
I disagree here. I think Van Noy is a stiff player that only moves well in one direction.
Here's my list for #35:
1) WR Marqise Lee 2) LG Joel Bitonio 3) WR Jordan Matthews
I don't really think we need to get a wide receiver but those two guys are good. Personally, I think Lee is a nice match for Manziel. Lee gets himself amped up during the games and gets visibly frustrated when his QB doesn't seem totally locked in or throws the ball away insted of giving him a shot. Manziel is a guy that keeps his teammates involved and doesn't give up on plays.
Moncrief I think is a total non-fit because that guy just completely quits on the top of his routes. He is a lazy WR. He is not going to keep running and try to give his QB an opening, whereas Lee is going to try and find a way to get the ball every play.
JMO.
Here's my list if we trade back from 35 after those 3:
Quote: Wonder where the the kid from Ohio State " Jack Mewhort " might fall ??
Anywhere from 50-110, really. Really like him, but his best fit is as a RT in a power scheme. In our scheme he could work out as RG maybe though, but should be ranked lower by us because of it. If he falls to the 4th? sure do it.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Well we seem to be on the same page with this one .. Really wonder what he could do at right guard ! I also like that TE Gillmore out of Colorado some place in the later rounds ..
Quote: FWIW, Adams drops a lot of passes, too. He also gives up yards trying to make a big play. Lee, OTOH, gets open all day.
Not sure what Adams you are watching... he has amazing hands.
CBSSPORTS - "...consistently wins at the catch-point, demonstrating good leaping ability, timing, and hand-eye coordination. Tracks the ball well and has strong hands to pluck the ball when turned towards the quarterback."
NFL.com - "Has a rangy build with good body length and secure hands to palm the ball and make difficult one-handed grabs. Tracks and adjusts to the ball very well downfield. Extends outside his frame and plucks the ball out of the air. Natural hands-catcher. "
Scouts Inc - "Ball Skills - 1 (Elite) - Focus drops are few and far between. Will occasionally double catch the ball. But overall ball skills are very good. Natural catcher of the football. Plucks on the run with confidence. Quick and strong hands. Outstanding natural hand-eye coordination. Shows good body control to adjust."
I've watched a lot of Adams, and it all backs this up. He probably has the best hands in the draft after Evans.
With al due respect here Candy, but it is a meaningless stat when saying 5% is so much better than 12%. We're talking a handful of drops maximum difference over a year and it does not say anthing about how much they get open to begin with or how accurate their QB was and more importantly in which situations and what routes they mostly ran etc...I know for a fact that Lee was much more physical and worked over the middle more. Automatically the drop rate goes up on that alone. An Adams was in the Fresno system catching tons of screen washing down his drop %....it's a vacuum stat, that at best explains what should be explained and examined further. As an end analysis, it's weak
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: And Toad, I guess you haven't watched XSF play. I agree, if I just read profiles of him, I'd think he'd be a win at this point, but if you actually watch him play, he's awful on contact and that's an OL job, lol. That's the problem with only reading profiles and reading stats. Haven't you learned anything from pimping Jarvis Jones last draft?
Nope, haven't watched XSF play. I'm going solely based on whomever the highest rated guard is, and I don't know if that's XSF or not at this point. What I do know is that our guard-play has been very sad and we need help there to protect our smallish QB. This is the best chance for that coming up today.
As for reading profiles, you've got your facts bass-ackwards. I spent way too much time last year watching Jones, Mingo, and Jordan. My eye said Jones was the best of the bunch and I'm sticking to it.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: With al due respect here Candy, but it is a meaningless stat when saying 5% is so much better than 12%. We're talking a handful of drops maximum difference over a year and it does not say anthing about how much they get open to begin with or how accurate their QB was and more importantly in which situations and what routes they mostly ran etc...I know for a fact that Lee was much more physical and worked over the middle more. Automatically the drop rate goes up on that alone. An Adams was in the Fresno system catching tons of screen washing down his drop %....it's a vacuum stat, that at best explains what should be explained and examined further. As an end analysis, it's weak
It's a stat, it's not the only stat... I'm sure if we are considering using the 35th pick in the draft on a guy we have watched enough tape to understand the circumstances behind the drops, whatever those might be.
With WR being so deep...I think we may hold out to either round 3 or 4 for a WR...ILB is a huge hole...But I see none deserving of this pick (as the available ILBs all seem to be more of very late 2nd or 3rd round and down guys) OG/OT is another huge hole...and a lot of talent still on board...barring a trade down I think this is where we go...
I kind of hope we manage to slide down just a little...and pick up another pick in round 3 because we have some holes still
Quote: I disagree here. I think Van Noy is a stiff player that only moves well in one direction.
he was hard to judge because they had him attacking almost exclusively. but, when he did stay back he seemed to be able to turn his hips well and stay with the guy he was on. what really has me on him is that he is so good at shedding blocks and creating space. But, I still prefer the WRs at this stage (and there are other LBers like Christian Jones that I like whom we can get a bit later).
Quote:
Here's my list for #35:
1) WR Marqise Lee 2) LG Joel Bitonio 3) WR Jordan Matthews
I do love Bitonio. here was my write-up on him
Bitonio is the most athletic OL not going near the top ten of this draft as he was top four in all speed, quickness and jumping categories at the combine. He is a former top-prep power-forward and grew up doing mixed martial arts (his father was a professional), which is likely why he has such amazing balance and is so good with his hands. Mean SOB on the field who is also a noted leader in practice/film off the field and graduated with a degree in economics (statistic based). Also, after the season, he decided it might help his draft stock if he learned every position on the OL, which he did by the Senior Bowl (and had a great week). He isn’t the strongest guy, has shorter arms (so OG/OC only) and Nevada did almost exclusive 2-pt stance (though he looked fine in a 3pt in the Senior Bowl). If he can add strength, then he is the prototypical ZBS OG.
Quote: Lee has the 2nd worst drop % of the "top 8" WRs. Kelvin Benjamin was the worst.
Actually Lee is worse than Benjamin, pretty significantly (12% to 9%)
yes, Lee was worse in the statistic but I watched nearly all the USC games and alot of those drops were him adjusting to terrible balls and getting over to them just to have a chance. his QB play was terrible, defenses were completely focused on him, and he was playing hurt. the '12 WR didn't disappear. I'd take him.
I'm still basking in the afterglow of the Bills 2015 First Rounder, Gilbert (my 2nd rated CB below Dennard) and JFF!!!
My best fit at 35:
Davante Adams
Very good measureables. 6'2 and 40in vert.
Highly productive. Highly!!! LOL 224 catches. 2957 yards. 37! TDs. in two seasons! A huge reason Carr was so productive.
Best covered catcher still available. Has a little Michael Irvin in him that way. He high points the ball really really well. Uses his body to shield. Then goes up and snatches the football.
Great safety blanket, who can beat man coverage and that's really what you want in a flanker (Z). Which is what we need.
Half of those plays are Derek Carr seeing coverage and simply throwing the football his way without even thinking, no questions asked. hahahaha
If you can't see Manziel throwing it up to this guy...1on1...with coverage rolled to Gordon at X and attention being paid to Cameron and often Hawkins on his side...after watching those highlights then I don't know what to say.
Here's a small write-up:
Adams had extraordinary stats against ordinary talent as the favorite target of highly rated quarterback prospect Derek Carr in Fresno State's spread offense. Adams caught 233 passes for more than 3,000 yards the last two years, including leading the nation with 131 grabs in 2013. Well-built, aggressive, natural hands catcher who makes himself a larger target with that leaping ability that allowed him to soar 39.5 inches in the vertical jump. Frankly: Adams is a 21-year old third-year sophomore who shows his smarts by leaving college the same year as his prolific quarterback. Regardless of competition level, he didn't drop the ball in college and it's hard to believe he will start doing so as a pro. - Frank Cooney, NFLDraftScout.com
One of those guys need to be Browns. Getting Lee would be an incredible coup in my opinion, because without the injury he's a top 15 pick this year........heck in any other draft he's a top 10 pick regardless.......this draft is just LOADED.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
I really want Lee at 35 ..... but it wouldn't surprise me to see the Browns try and leverage that pick to a team trying to get ahead of the Raiders for a QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
.. Really wonder what he could do at right guard ! I also like that TE Gillmore out of Colorado some place in the later rounds ..
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
And RE-SIGN ... Travis Benjamin! .. And Greg Little!
