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So, today I was Skype with some of my family back in Turkey, and like always, my religious belief came up. I'm Christian. All of my family in turkey is Muslim. My dad is Muslim, but my mother is Christian. He didn't force my mother to convert. Just to give you guys some background.
Anyways, after explaining why I chose Christianity, they changed the subject, and asked why do Americans feel that Christians are being attacked in America, where we have freedom to express whatever we please, unlike most other countries. My aunt asked if we are suppose to be a free country, from religion, and that we have no national religion like other countries, why do Christians feel the need to force their religion on others with regard to politics.
I made the argument that Muslims do it as well In Arabic nations, which then she replied "but we are alresdy a Muslim nation, America doesn't belong to any religion, it's suppose to be neutral from all religions"
I didn't have a counter for that. Then I saw riley01 little shot in a thread that had nothing to do with religion, and it had me thinking.
Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Legend
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Quote:
Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
I've asked myself those questions for years.
At the end of the day, Christians believe that a snake told a woman to do bad things, and that a virgin gave birth to a man who died and rose from the dead.
Not exactly a paragon of rationality or logic.
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Legend
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Lol that's so wrong, but I can't really argue with it.
As a Christian, I still have enough sense to realize that some of those stories are exactly that; stories.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Legend
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I don't believe Christianity is under attack at all. Once again I believe it's a very small, vocal fringe element making the most noise that gets the attention.
I don't believe the vast majority of Christians feel they are under attack. As far as I know, Christians are free to follow their religious beliefs as they see fit. I know I am.
You have fringe elements in everything. Both right and left. The right points to the fringe element of the left to try to paint everyone who disagrees with them as the same. Which is far from the truth. The left does the exact same thing when pointing towards people like Palin and Rush.
People who make outlandish claims seem to garner the most attention. That's why such things get spread. There are a minority of people who feel that their religious beliefs should be incorporated into our laws. That somehow their version of beliefs and morality trump all others.
But that view isn't as wide spread as some would have you believe IMO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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I really hope not man.
But just the public outlash with regards to gay marriage or abortions. It's just...crazy out there.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Legend
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I've asked myself those questions for years.
At the end of the day, Christians believe that a snake told a woman to do bad things, and that a virgin gave birth to a man who died and rose from the dead.
Not exactly a paragon of rationality or logic.
Yet you sit in front of the TV watching the Browns thinking they might actully win. so how rational or logical are you 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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~ Legend
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When you're in power for so long that any attempt to equal the power is seen as an attack on their power. Which is why they complain about "Happy Holidays" and other trivial things.
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Legend
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Jc there is no reason Muslims and Christians can't get along. Having differing beliefs doesn't change the fact that you are a good person. Or a bad one for that matter. Islam teaches you to be good just as much a Christianity teaches you to be good.
I am a white Christian girl, by upbringing. Not so much by practice.
A couple years ago I went to school for some medical certifications. It was a black Muslim run school. They were the nicest people. For my class externship they sent us to a black extremely Muslim doctor's office to work. The office workers wore the Muslim garb, sorry I don't know the name. They were all very nice ladies and doctors and I felt very welcome there. It was a very busy doctors office, standing room only in the waiting room. And even with the large number of patients they treated us newbie student helpers very well.
I don't see why the abrahamic religions have to fight. We have the same heritage in the old testament. And all three religions teach kindness.
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Legend
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I really hope not man.
But just the public outlash with regards to gay marriage or abortions. It's just...crazy out there.
Lots of this has come about recently as religious lobbyists have gained increasing power in Washington.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Quote:
Which is why they complain about "Happy Holidays" and other trivial things.
Nobody likes being told how to do things, esspecially their own things.
So, when someone comes along and tells folks that it's not right to say "Merry Christmas" any longer, it's going to get folks bent out of shape. Not everybody cares about being so politically correct that they always are inclusive of absolutely everybody lest they accidentally offend someone.
MOST of this type of crap starts with retailers.
THEY don't want to exclude anyone, and they certainly don't want to risk offending an entire demographic.
This mindset also pervades corporate America, which has an absolutely horrible trickle-down effect on American culture-at-large.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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I don't mind people saying Happy Holidays to me and I've never had any negative comments when I reply with Merry Christmas.
The majority of complaints I've heard is that people seem offended when others say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. I don't care what they say as long as they don't mind what I say.
Maybe living in smaller towns and now in the south, I just haven't been confronted with the issue as much. Most places I have frequented say Merry Christmas. But I've never been confronted by anyone when I've said Merry Christmas.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
Jc there is no reason Muslims and Christians can't get along. Having differing beliefs doesn't change the fact that you are a good person. Or a bad one for that matter. Islam teaches you to be good just as much a Christianity teaches you to be good.
I am a white Christian girl, by upbringing. Not so much by practice.
A couple years ago I went to school for some medical certifications. It was a black Muslim run school. They were the nicest people. For my class externship they sent us to a black extremely Muslim doctor's office to work. The office workers wore the Muslim garb, sorry I don't know the name. They were all very nice ladies and doctors and I felt very welcome there. It was a very busy doctors office, standing room only in the waiting room. And even with the large number of patients they treated us newbie student helpers very well.
I don't see why the abrahamic religions have to fight. We have the same heritage in the old testament. And all three religions teach kindness.
Awesome story. I know that doesn't represent all of Islam, but that's how the majority of Muslims I know treat other people.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Ya know Pit ,from the first arrivals and for the first 200 years we were a 98% Christian Nation ! Even today I would venture a guess that 80 some % consider them selves Christians .
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All Pro
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Here’s the logic of Koran: 1. Unbelievers are those who do not accept Islam, especially Jews and Christians: To those who have received the Scriptures [Jews & Christians] and to the Gentiles say: ‘Will you surrender yourselves to Allah?’ If they become Muslims they shall be rightly guided; if they pay no heed, then your only duty is to warn them. God is watching all His servants. - Sura 3:20 2. Because unbelievers do not accept Islam, Allah hates them and does not guide them: Say: ‘Obey Allah and the Apostle.’ If they pay no heed, then, surely, God does not love the unbelievers.” - Sura 3:32 You have a good example in Abraham and those who followed him. They said to their people: ‘We disown you and the idols which you worship besides Allah. We renounce you: enmity and hate shall reign between us until you believe in Allah only.”…. - Sura 60:4 Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers. - Sura 5:51 3. Because Allah does not guide them, unbelievers beome evil-doers, they commit additional sins besides rejecting Islam: You see many among them vie with one another in sin and wickedness and practise what is unlawful. Evil is what they do.Why do their rabbis and divines not forbid them to blaspheme or to practise what is unlawful? Evil indeed are their doings. - Sura 5:62-63 4. Muslims will see the sins of unbelievers plainly, both in non-Muslim society and in dealings with non-Muslims: They listen to falsehoods and practise what is unlawful. If they come to you [Muhammad], give them your judgment or avoid them. If you avoid them, they can in no way harm you; but if you do act as their judge, judge them with fairness. Allah loves those that deal justly.But how will they come to you for judgment when they already have the Torah which enshrines God’s own judgment? Soon after they will turn their backs: they are no true believers. - Sura 5:42-43 5. Therefore, Muslims must fight unbelievers both to limit sin and give unbelievers a chance to go to heaven by becoming Muslims. (Only Muslims can go to heaven, but Muslims are not assured of going to heaven unless they die in Jihad. Muslims who do not fight Jihad will have their good deeds weighed against their bad deeds. Refusing to fight Jihad is a very bad deed.) Those that make war against Allah and His apostle and spread disorder in the land shall be slain or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the land. They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter: except those that repent before you reduce them. For you must know that Allah is forgiving and merciful. - 5:33-34 Let not the unbelievers think that We (Allah) prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them. - Sura 3:178 Those that fled their homes or were expelled from them, and those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a recompense from Allah; Allah dispenses the richest recompense. - Sura 3:195 6. Now here’s the rub – the Koran does share many of the moral rules of the Bible. Although the Koran says moral rules like don’t kill and don’t steal only apply between Muslims – Muslims can kill non-Muslims, take the property of non-Muslims as tribute (called Jizya, this was the cause of the Barbary Pirate War in the early 19th century), take their wives, or make non-Muslims slaves – there are enough similarities that the modern, post-Christian West looks as evil to Muslims as Koran tells them it will look. For example: 7. Koran and the Bible say God forms babies in their mothers’ wombs, but the U.S. has legalized abortion. It is he who shapes your bodies in your mothers’ wombs as He pleases. There is no god but Him, the Mighty, the Wise One. - Sura 3:6 8. Koran and the Bible teach that God is the Creator, but the West embraces evolution. Such is God, your Lord. There is no god but Him, the Creator of all things. Therefore serve Him. Of all things He is the Guardian. - Sura 6:102 9. Koran and the Bible both teach chastity, but we in the West practice free love, and display this to the world in our movies and TV programs. Let those who cannot afford to marry live in continence until God shall enrich them from His own bounty. As for those of your slaves who wish to buy their liberty, free them if you find in them any promise and bestow on them a part of the riches which God has given you. You shall not force your slave-girls into prostitution in order that you may enrich yourselves, if they wish to preserve their chastity. If anyone compels them, God will be forgiving and merciful to them.” - Sura 24:033 10. Koran and the Bible both forbid homosexuality, but we in the West are legitimizing this and many other perversions, and again it shows up in our media. And Lot, who said to his people: ‘Will you persist in these lewd acts which no other nation has committed before you? You lust after men instead of women. Truly, you are a degenerate people.’ - Sura 7:80-81 11. Koran is full of contradictions. One of the strangest is Koran says it confirms the Bible, and tells Muslims to read Torah and the Gospels. Koran tells Muslims that Jews and Christians – the People of the Book – don’t keep their own scriptures and don’t teach them to others. When God made a covenant with those to whom the Scriptures were given He said: ‘Proclaim these to mankind and do not suppress them.’ But they cast the Scriptures over their backs and sold them for a paltry price. Evil was their bargain. - Sura 3:187 He (Allah) has revealed to you the Book with the Truth (Koran) confirming the scriptures which preceded it; for He has already revealed the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind, and the distinction between right and wrong. Those that deny God’s revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge. - Sura 3:3-4 12. Koran and the Bible also condemn gambling, drunkenness, and the occult (horoscopes, witches, etc.) but in the U.S., our own state governments now run numbers, we are legalizing drugs, and there is an explosion of interest in the occult, including pagan religions like wicca. Believers, wine and games of chance, idols and divining arrows, are abominations devised by Satan. Avoid them, so that you may prosper. - Sura 5:90 13. CS readers know that God’s moral rules like don’t steal and don’t lie are essential to free markets and prosperity. While Islam says Muslims should not lie or steal from each other, corruption is rampant in Muslim countries, because they don’t have the Holy Spirit to help them keep the Commandments. The Koran perversely tells Muslims that the riches of Christians and Jews come from our sinfulness while the poverty of Muslims is a test from Allah to see who loves prosperity more than Islam, You shall be sorely tried in the matter of your possessions and your persons, and will hear much that is hurtful from those who were given the Scriptures before you, and from the pagans. But if you endure with fortitude and guard yourselves against evil, you will surely triumph. - Sura 3:186 Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is grief. Hell shall be their home, an evil resting place. - Sura 3:196-197 14. Last, Koran adds a rule that can’t be found in the Bible. Where the Bible says that there are neither male nor female in Christ, and that God is no respecter of persons, Koran tells Muslims that men are superior to women. The West’s Feminist movement thus looks evil and sinful to Muslims. Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain the. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they disobey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. Sura 4:34Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please. - Sura 2:223 The bottom line is that Muslims hate the West because the Koran tells Muslims that the West rejects Islam, and consequently is evil. http://israelpalestine-speedy.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-do-muslims-hate-christians.html
GO BROWNS!
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Dawg Talker
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I am a Christian, I study(sometimes), I go to Church and I am believer. Two of my brothers are Muslims and there are many debates. There is something very interesting that they believe which is they believe we as Christians can go to heaven. However its not the same for us. As Christians we believe you must confess it with you mouth that Jesus is Lord. I think this is interesting because everyone paints this picture of Islam but the most important thing in any believer's faith is where do they go after they die? We as Christians believe everyone but Christians are going to hell while in Islam they believe we as Christians can go to heaven. Allah = God is arabic, so please don't be ignorant and try to make it something that it isn't. Every word can be translated in another language which doesn't take away from the initial meaning of the word. Quote:
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Qur'an 2:62
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Romans 10:9New King James Version (NKJV)
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
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Legend
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Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked,
Almost everybody cries foul whenever something they hold near and dear to them is attacked... whether it's your favorite team or the city you grew up in or your religion.. now the second part of your question...
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yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
That's a complicated question.... if by "trying to tell Muslims how to live" you are talking about individuals in their faith.. well, every religion that I'm aware of has some kind of mandate for its followers to go out and bring other people to their religion so telling others that they should follow YOUR religion is just what people of faith do... if by "trying to tell Muslims how to live" you are talking about not stoning a girl to death for being raped" then I believe the answer is fairly self-evident.
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Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country,
The vast majority of Christians don't find them evil.. just misguided in their faith. There are also a lot of Christians out there who, unfortunately, don't know much about what the Muslim religion actually says beyond what they have read in bullet points on the internet.. and if you went through the Bible and pulled out selected verses without putting them in context, it looks like a pretty violent book as well.
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while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Hmmm... it's more custom than anything else. For a couple centuries after the constitution was written, religious practices and subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) intermingling of government and religion was just accepted. Then people started challenging it. I would argue that sometimes they had a right to challenge it and other times I believe they were just nitpicking to make a point. But when you are accustomed to having something done a certain way for most of your life and then somebody tries to tell you that you can't do it that way any more, people fight it. (Take for example putting a simple manger scene in front of the town hall at Christmas) That's human nature and it doesn't just apply to religion.. heck look at prohibition or smoking in bars. When people are used to something, it's hard to take it away. The next generation, even the smokers, won't care that they can't smoke in a bar because they never had that ability and never even were aware that at one point you could smoke in bars. Had town manger scenes been illegal since the 1700s nobody today would care.
Other issues such as gay marriage, legalization of pot, and other things that are fought with a religious angle.. it's a little more complicated but the same concept.. it's custom and a lot of people don't like change.
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Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
I have no answer for this..
And I'm glad that PDR got his customary petty insult that he puts in every religious thread out of the way early. 
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Quote:
Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
Reverse the questions, the answers are probably very close to being the same.
People that draw cartoons of Muhammed get very real death threats.
Muslims are extremely fond of setting up caliphates where their religion is forced upon everyone as the basis of all policy.
They tend to feel that any actions around or against them are part of some Holy War as if the Crusades are still ongoing.
Why can't Muslims even get along with each other without warfare and bloodshed? Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, etc... all live together peacefully.
Conversely, Shia,Sufi, and Sunni are constantly trying to kill each other... and anyone else they deem "infidel" simply because they don't share the same belief system; and it doesn't matter if those so-called infidels are Chritian, Hindu, or even Buddhist.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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All Pro
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Quote:
Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
I'm a Christian.
I don't cry foul. I don't tell anyone how to do anything. I don't deem Muslims as evil. I don't force any federal policy based on my beliefs. I don't defend Israel. I don't think Muslims hate America.
Yes, some Christians do these things. But assuming that we all do? That's like assuming all Muslims hate America. 
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You can't turn on the TV ( Pick your broadcaster/poison ) without hearing about Muslims/Islamic s killing someone , some where ! ... And to top it off , you get reports of how the few Christians left in the Middle East are getting wacked and or driven out of the their homes and lively hoods ... How many Christian churches are Allowed in Countrys like Saudi Arabia ? Zero .. If this is all you hear 24/7 , what are you suppose to think
The fallout from what is going on in the Middle East is only going to get worse , and Heaven help us if we get hit with another major Terrorist attach by a Muslim group ! Christians will constantly point out this ain't Baptists and Catholics ...
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~ Legend
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Why can't Muslims even get along with each other without warfare and bloodshed? Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, etc... all live together peacefully.
Now. After many, many, many centuries of doing the exact opposite. This would probably still be the case if we didn't find America. It all relates to power, because that's the only reason Church exists. In the Middle East you just have way too many people fighting over not enough power.
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I'm interested to see how you rationalize the sole existence of the Church based on power. I'm pretty sure it was the opposite of powerful for quite some time after it started. It had been manipulated by various European leaders over the centuries, but I wouldn't exactly call Francis or JPII harbingers of power.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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I would say that Muslims and Jews/Christians hate goes all the way back to the old testament when Issac tricked Esau into selling his birth right when he was hungry and then tricking his father into giving him his blessing instead of to Esau.
"Genesis Chapter 25
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. 26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.
....Esau Sells his Birthright
29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint: 30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom. 31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright. 32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me? 33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright."
Muslims are descended from Esau and Jew are descended from Issac. Christians are just mutts born out of the Jewish faith aka gentiles and converted Jews. That is where the original animosity started but it gets worse.
◄ Genesis 27 ►
King James Bible
Jacob's Deception
1 And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I. 2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death: 3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison; 4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.
5 And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt for venison, and to bring it. 6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying, 7 Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death. 8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee. 9 Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savoury meat for thy father, such as he loveth: 10 And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death. 11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man: 12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing. 13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them. 14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved. 15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son: 16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck: 17 And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
Isaac Blesses Jacob
19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me. 20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me. 21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not. 22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau. 23 And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him. 24 And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am. 25 And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine, and he drank. 26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
The Stolen Blessing
30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting. 31 And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me. 32 And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau. 33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed. 34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father. 35 And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing. 36 And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me? 37 And Isaac answered and said unto Esau, Behold, I have made him thy lord, and all his brethren have I given to him for servants; and with corn and wine have I sustained him: and what shall I do now unto thee, my son? 38 And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.
39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;
40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.
41 And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob. ..."
Thus two nations were born as God had foretold all along.
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Back to modern day aka last 200 years. The crusades have never ended. If Muslims controlled Jerusalem they would again ban all religions but theirs from visiting the holy land. Jews are left in control of it because they allow all the major faiths to come and worship there. So long as, America wants to support Israel being run by the Jews so that Americans can visit the holy land they will be locked in a permanent Holy War. Muslims are locked into purging the holy land from the infidels so they don't have a choice either.
Then again as American's become more and more lukewarm in their faith and just flat out too lazy to care we will go the way of the Romans and be destroyed.
"Revelation Chapter 3
.... 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."
I actually respect most Muslims for being willing to fight for their beliefs even if I don't agree because most Americans who call themselves Christians have so little conviction they might as well be atheists. Gay marriage? Gay pastors? Casinos everywhere? Legalized drugs? Schools not allowed to talk about Christ or God? Casual sex OK and young children taught how to? Adultery everywhere? Presidents who lie under oath? Legalized prostitution in some states? Families being destroyed left and right and children left to bare the scars. Americans who call themselves Christians doing nothing at all to stop such atrocities deserve to live in the America they refuse to work to protect.
The greatest sin is to do nothing while evil runs rampant. American so-called Christians will have a lot to answer for. It won't be the Muslims or atheist to blame either but the lazy and luke warm Christians who are most to blame.
All in the name of being politically correct. No faster way to have things go strait to hell.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I'm interested to see how you rationalize the sole existence of the Church based on power. I'm pretty sure it was the opposite of powerful for quite some time after it started. It had been manipulated by various European leaders over the centuries, but I wouldn't exactly call Francis or JPII harbingers of power.
Do you think that once powerful people convert to whatever faith they believe in that they won't use that power to make the religion of their choice powerful?
C'mon Man!
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Legend
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I've asked myself those questions for years.
At the end of the day, Christians believe that a snake told a woman to do bad things, and that a virgin gave birth to a man who died and rose from the dead.
Not exactly a paragon of rationality or logic.
Yet you sit in front of the TV watching the Browns thinking they might actully win. so how rational or logical are you
I agree.
We're all a little crazy.
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~ Legend
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I'm interested to see how you rationalize the sole existence of the Church based on power. I'm pretty sure it was the opposite of powerful for quite some time after it started. It had been manipulated by various European leaders over the centuries, but I wouldn't exactly call Francis or JPII harbingers of power.
I would and I think many other people would. Granted JP2 and Francis do not use their power like Pope Alexander VI, but they still have this power. For example, Popes are usually asked to "talk to" Central and South American countries for diplomatic purposes. Though I will admit that the Vatican's power has diminished quite a bit.
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We talked about a lot of this in a course I took in college. Our professor, a Ph.D in philosophy and MA in religious studies, jumped into the discussion with us.
Here's a few of the points I took away:
-Islam on the religion time scale rests somewhere around infant stages compared to Christianity (Of the practised religions: Hinduism is the oldest. Sorry, Judiasm).
-Christianity had it's growing pains with issues in Rome, inquisition, Reformation, and fighting of all types.
-Fighting continues to exist between Islamic sects in less desirable living conditions. We have Sunni and Shia living peacefully in the United States. Much of the fighting is due to the awful socioeconomic conditions where the fighting constantly happens. Sort of relates to power but a bit different. Note: None of the major branches in the U.S. are looking at striking up caliphates (contrary to what Glenn Beck would like you to believe).
-Then you have the Israel-Palestinian conflict which plays into the whole picture, too.
Overall it's really complicated. Christianity is the benefactor of the Roman empire.
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All Pro
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I find it interesting that it is perfectly acceptable to stereotype religions. We're talking about a group of 1 billion people as if they are all uniform. If we switched the labels and generalizations to race, gender or orientation it is completely unacceptable.
Why DO blacks cry foul whenever they feel like their race is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell whites how to live?
Why do women deem men as evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of sexist beliefs on the American people?
Why are gays in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war...
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Legend
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I agree.
We're all a little crazy.
oh I am a LOT crazy
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
Some interesting thoughts with these questions, and I have to ask you a question. Were you born a Muslim? I ask this because in some Muslim countries, you have become an apostate, and you can be killed for your change of religion.
I guess the answers to your questions come back to the idea of tolerance. The best example I can think of is when a gay couple tries to get a Christian baker to make a wedding cake. Homosexuality is frowned upon by just about every religion out there, so I would not expect a Christian baker to make a cake for homosexual wedding any more than I would expect a Muslim. It's against their beliefs. Forcing them to do it, or suing them, is just as wrong as forcing a homosexual to go through reversion therapy. I can see why Christians would be upset.
As for Muslims, have you not watched history? Traditionally, when Muslims take over an area, they believe that they can impose their laws on everyone. This is everything from taxing those that are non-Muslim, to forced conversions, to death. The Islamic religions are also intolerant of homosexuality.
As for the question as why do Christians in this country become upset over middle east Muslims and their practices, that answer is simple. No one wants to be forced from their religion. No one wants to be forced to a belief system other than the one they believe.
This nation was founded by a large majority of Christians, back in the days when the biggest problems were between Catholics and Protestants. The British empire had flopped back and forth between those flavors of Christianity for years, which is the main reason we don't have a state religion. Our founders decided that people should not have to change religions due to a change in government, and everyone should be able to practice their religion, but not impose it on others. Atheism was not a largely held practice at that time, therefore, Judeo-Christian symbolism is all over this country. I believe it should stay that way, as it is our history.
Forcing the devoutly religious to provide services they religiously reject is wrong, according to the founding of our country (hobby lobby ruling). Forcing the removal of religious traditions is just as wrong as forcing new non-religious traditions on people. Shouldn't the atheist be as tolerant as the Christian or Muslim? I personally believe that we should not force others to our beliefs. The gay couple should not try to force a devout Christian or Muslim baker to make a cake, no more than the Christian or Muslim baker should force the gay man to be straight. The Christian or Muslim business owner should not be forced to provide services that are opposed to their religion, and the government should stay out of health care as there is no 'one size fits all' solution.
Oddly enough, the neo pagan adage 'do what you will, but harm none' is probably the best advice I can give for these problems. The best way to teach tolerance is to be tolerant. That tolerance comes from understanding. Unfortunately, unless it comes from all sides, it will never work.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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Dawg Talker
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jc
It seems like a lot of people are saying Christians aren't trying to force their religion, so why get upset about the 10 Commandments at the court house or prayer in school or any of the social issues that get polarized by religious beliefs, ex. gay marriage?
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All Pro
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Why DO Christians cry foul whenever they feel like their religion is being attacked, yet have no problem trying to tell Muslims how to live?
Why do Christians deem Muslims evil in our country, while thing to FORCE federal policies because of religious beliefs on the American people?
Why are Christians in this country so ignorant about the fact that when we as Americans go to the Middle East, specifically defending Israel, we just throw our hat in a holy war, then turn around and cry that Muslims hate America?
I've asked myself those questions for years.
At the end of the day, Christians believe that a snake told a woman to do bad things, and that a virgin gave birth to a man who died and rose from the dead.
Not exactly a paragon of rationality or logic.
Perhaps you feel that way because you have bought into the philosophy of naturalism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_%28philosophy%29
Many people believe that natural laws are the only thing that operate in the kosmos, but where did those natural laws come from?
Many people say the same things about the physical universe that we say about God, ie self existent, not acted on by anythiing outside of itself, etc.
Naturalism is a philosophy just as much as theism But the lie of the day is that naturalism is science and theism is religion. Yet naturalism is not science, it is the presuppositional philosophy behind science today, just as theism was once the presupposional basis for science in times past... see Isaac Newton, Galileo, Farraday, etc.
Naturalism is basically the deification of nature in general and man in particular, whereas Christians acknowledge that the universe could not have created itself, that it is not eternal, etc. If it is not eternal and did not create itself, where does that leave us.
,,,and if something outside of nature created the universe, tnen you have supernaturalism, and if there is someone that is higher than nature itself, then your objections are no longer irrational or illogical.
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/13/14 11:44 PM.
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Legend
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Wesleyanism, which is the basis of the United Methodist Church, (to which I belong) has 3 simple principles at its core, these being: Do no harm. Do good. Stay in love with God. Quote:
The best way to teach tolerance is to be tolerant. That tolerance comes from understanding. Unfortunately, unless it comes from all sides, it will never work.
This is very true. Tolerance, though, is not acceptance of all behavior as moral or correct. I can tolerate, for example, that some countries allow for a man to marry numerous women, without accepting that it is the proper way of thing as defined by my religious beliefs. I can accept the rights of people to act and live in certain ways that the Bible says are sinful, without endorsing and/or accepting those actions as proper and/or moral.
We all have differing moral cores, codes, and beliefs. We each see different behaviors as proper and improper, and in differing degrees. One man sees a couple living together in a sexual relationship as no big deal. To others, it would be a highly sinful relationship. Some would have a different perspective if it was their child in such a relationship, either for good, or for ill.
People want to assign absolutes to certain behaviors/actions ... but there are very few absolutes. Very few action or events cause all people to look at them in the same way. In the West, we largely look at the 9/11 attacks as one of the most vile, immoral acts to be committed in the past century. These attacks were reviled by some in the Middle East, yet celebrated by others.
An action can be accepted on a secular basis without being acceptable on a religious/moral basis. Take laws as an example. All laws are extensions, in a way, of the morals of a particular people. Morals are an individual judgement of what is right or wrong ...... and that's what laws are as well, only they are, a definition of the morality of a people, with penalties for violations. Laws can change based on popular opinion. Just because a law changes, that does not mean that all people immediately, or ever, do, or should, change their moral beliefs to match the majority. A person can determine an action to be morally wrong, while accepting that people have the right to make immoral decisions. (as long as they don't harm others as a result) Not all immoral actions have to be illegal ...... but they still remain immoral to people. There is a popular phrase that floated around a while ago, that said that you cannot legislate morality .... but that is what laws are .... an attempt to define socially acceptable/legal behavior.
A religious person can look at the world, and its laws, and accept that laws are necessary, but, like anyone else, may not agree with all laws. Such a person may even try to change laws based upon their beliefs. This is no different than what people on the opposite side of the equation try to do. However, many people deride the use of religious beliefs in the attempt to influence the world and its laws. Why? We all use our particular beliefs and influences to form our individual morality, and use that individual morality to form out picture of the bigger picture as well. Everyone, whether strongly religious or absolutely atheist, does so.
My religion teaches to "hate the sin, and love the sinner". Loving the sinner does not mean accepting sinful behavior as proper and/or moral.It means that we understand that all, including us, sin ...... and that all sin offends God. We all fall short of the Glory of God, and have only one path to God and forgiveness, and that is through Jesus Christ. I believe this to be God's will, and God's plan, and I do not have the right to change it. Now, because I know that all sin is offensive to God, I should stand in opposition of sinful acts. All sinful acts. If I love my fellow man, then I should try my best to help them come to Christ, and to eternal life in the Glory of God. While I accept that the laws of man change, I do not, and cannot change God's laws. I ought not judge others, but pointing out what God defines as a sin is not judging. I am not passing that judgement any more than pointing out to someone that they are parked in a no parking zone is judging them. I am interpreting the law, as I understand it, and suggesting that the person is in violation, and trying to save them from the punishment for that violation of the law. God's laws are no different, only the punishment for violations does not come in this life. My religion tells me that there is one way, one absolutely perfect way, to escape judgement and punishment for our sins, It is an expression of love to try and help people come to God, to forgiveness, and to life eternal. Some will ignore God's laws, and God's expression of love through the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ, and will face their own punishment. Some will see themselves as the ultimate moral rudder. That is their choice to make, but it does not absolutely make it so. Those who see themselves as their own "god", and final arbiter of their own righteousness, follow their own religion, of a kind. They then try to force their own "religious" beliefs on others .... using their own morality as the final word. In short, those who deride religion often do as they accuse religious people of doing. They follow a temporal set of beliefs as their religion, and expect others to also do so.
Some even try to make fun of religious beliefs, or the beliefs of others. That's OK. Paul did so as well, and worse, persecuting, and actually killing Christians. He came to God in a flash, when Jesus Christ revealed just a fraction of His glory and blinded Paul, asking "Why do you persecute Me?". Paul went on to form Jesus Christ's church, a church he actively tried to destroy as a Jewish leader. God accepts repentance from all, and offers forgiveness to all who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins. That does not mean that we become perfect after becoming Christians ...... but that we are seen as perfect in God's eyes because of the sacrifice made by Jesus in our place. Once a person becomes a Christian, they should attempt to live a more Christlike life. That means trying to avoid sin. We are not Christ, and we will fail, but that does not mean that we do not try our best. We do not judge the sins of others, but that does not mean that we simply stand by and watch others destroy themselves in sin. A person can point out when someone is violating the law without being judgmental. It is not hatred to do so, but rather is an attempt to save that person from the consequences of violations of the law. It is no different with a person's religious beliefs. I do not speak against certain actions as an act of hate ... but rather as an attempt to help another not violate God's Law. Each person is free to decide for themselves what they will do. God does not force us to come to Him. We each have to make that decision for ourselves. Christians meekly accepting behaviors that the Bible tells us are wrong is not the way to bring others to God. Christians meekly accepting that "people will just do as they please, so there is no sense preaching to them"is not the way to bring others to God. We all sin, and God hates ALL sin. God hates sexual sin just as much as murder. He hates dishonoring your parents just as much as stealing. We ought not decide for God which sins are the "worst", because that is His decision. However. we also should not stand by as people revel in their sins. God wants everyone to choose him, and to choose forgiveness. It is our task as Christians, and a joyous task it is, to help others come to God's Grace and forgiveness. We cannot do so by meekly accepting a belief that because a sin is made legal by temporal laws of man, that the sin is also made acceptable to God. As a Christian, I believe that I have a responsibility to live a life according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, to ask for the forgiveness of my sins and believe that He does so as a result of His sacrifice I also believe that I should do my best to help others come to God. As a Christian, as a concerned citizen of God's world, I believe that a Christian should help others avoid sins as defined by God's Word. "Hate the sin, but love the sinner". Man, that is God's entire message to us. He loves us, but hates our sinful behavior. Because of His love, He sacrificed His Son as a perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins. His actions are the perfect example of "Love the sin, hate the sinner". That is our role as Christians ..... to love all people ..... all sinners .... (and we are all sinners) but to not stand meekly by in blind deference to their sins. We should point out violations of the Law, in a genuine and loving attempt to help others come into accordance with God's Law, not in some superior and condescending manner, but in a loving way one friend would try to do for another friend.
Jesus Christ spent His time on earth forgiving those who came before him, even those who put Him on the cross. He forgave sins, but he did not meekly accept sinful behavior. Neither should Christians when faced with a world that tries to tell them what they should believe, instead of what God tells them. For me, God is a far greater authority. However, He allows us all to make our own decisions.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Dawg Talker
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Naturalism is a philosophy just as much as theism But the lie of the day is that naturalism is science and theism is religion. Yet naturalism is not science, it is the presuppositional philosophy behind science today, just as theism was once the presupposional basis for science in times past... see Isaac Newton, Galileo, Farraday, etc.
No, no and no. If it's scientifically backed, that means there's at least some evidence for it that we've observed in the natural world. There is no presupposition to science, not any longer. If it doesn't hold up under scrutiny of of experimentation, you can't say something is going and ascribe it to supernatural means. That is the very opposite of what science is now. You might have a leg to stand on if science as a method for describing our universe hadn't had much success over the years, but the proof is there. Scientific pursuits lead to a better understanding of our world, and that understanding throughout the centuries has yet to turn up anything that wasn't eventually able to be explained through natural means.
Newton, Galileo and Farraday didn't get their breakthrough ideas from any holy text or divine providence, they got it through hard work, study, and experimentation. The fact that they were religious means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
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Naturalism is basically the deification of nature in general and man in particular, whereas Christians acknowledge that the universe could not have created itself, that it is not eternal, etc. If it is not eternal and did not create itself, where does that leave us.
,,,and if something outside of nature created the universe, tnen you have supernaturalism, and if there is someone that is higher than nature itself, then your objections are no longer irrational or illogical.
Man, you're accusing science of supposition, then you pull that out? First, naturalism doesn't deify anything, that's the point of it. Naturalism as a philosophy states that everything that occurs in the universe has a natural cause, and that if we look at it hard enough and from different directions we'll be able to figure out that cause. There is no mention of man, or dieties, or anything like that. You're building a strawman for an argument.
Second, there's quite a bit of proof that this universe is eternal. I can't really help with this idea of "creating itself." There are hypotheses, but nothing concrete. We know the big bang happened, we know how long ago it occurred, but we're not yet to the point where we can talk about the "something before." There was a cause, but that's all we can say. You'll need to provide pretty concrete proof about when the universe will end in order to qualify your currently illogical objections.
There are no sacred cows.
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Legend
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I'm interested to see how you rationalize the sole existence of the Church based on power. I'm pretty sure it was the opposite of powerful for quite some time after it started. It had been manipulated by various European leaders over the centuries, but I wouldn't exactly call Francis or JPII harbingers of power.
I would and I think many other people would. Granted JP2 and Francis do not use their power like Pope Alexander VI, but they still have this power. For example, Popes are usually asked to "talk to" Central and South American countries for diplomatic purposes. Though I will admit that the Vatican's power has diminished quite a bit.
I wouldn't wholeheartedly disagree with that, but I'm stuck on the point of the church's "sole existence" being based on power.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
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Wesleyanism, which is the basis of the United Methodist Church, (to which I belong) has 3 simple principles at its core, these being:
Do no harm.
Do good.
Stay in love with God.
Which is where I believe most Christians get into trouble.. they try to complicate things too much... and they allow themselves to be dragged into these pointless debates by secularists who wanted to talk about whether you should shave or eat shellfish... that's not why Jesus was sent.
There is an old story of Christians in Russia during the Bolscheviks (sp?) revolution in the early 1900s.. thousands of people were dying and people were expecting the church to take a strong stand.. the one thing they found in all of the church documents at the time was they couldn't seem to agree on how tall the candles on the alter should be.
Too many Christians define the adage "rearranging chairs on a ship that's going down".... in that way they are much like the government, they keep you focused and debating the minutia details while the larger picture gets ignored.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 934
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 934 |
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Naturalism is a philosophy just as much as theism But the lie of the day is that naturalism is science and theism is religion. Yet naturalism is not science, it is the presuppositional philosophy behind science today, just as theism was once the presupposional basis for science in times past... see Isaac Newton, Galileo, Farraday, etc.
No, no and no. If it's scientifically backed, that means there's at least some evidence for it that we've observed in the natural world. There is no presupposition to science, not any longer. If it doesn't hold up under scrutiny of of experimentation, you can't say something is going and ascribe it to supernatural means. That is the very opposite of what science is now. You might have a leg to stand on if science as a method for describing our universe hadn't had much success over the years, but the proof is there. Scientific pursuits lead to a better understanding of our world, and that understanding throughout the centuries has yet to turn up anything that wasn't eventually able to be explained through natural means.
Newton, Galileo and Farraday didn't get their breakthrough ideas from any holy text or divine providence, they got it through hard work, study, and experimentation. The fact that they were religious means nothing in the grand scheme of things.
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Naturalism is basically the deification of nature in general and man in particular, whereas Christians acknowledge that the universe could not have created itself, that it is not eternal, etc. If it is not eternal and did not create itself, where does that leave us.
,,,and if something outside of nature created the universe, tnen you have supernaturalism, and if there is someone that is higher than nature itself, then your objections are no longer irrational or illogical.
Man, you're accusing science of supposition, then you pull that out? First, naturalism doesn't deify anything, that's the point of it. Naturalism as a philosophy states that everything that occurs in the universe has a natural cause, and that if we look at it hard enough and from different directions we'll be able to figure out that cause. There is no mention of man, or dieties, or anything like that. You're building a strawman for an argument.
Second, there's quite a bit of proof that this universe is eternal. I can't really help with this idea of "creating itself." There are hypotheses, but nothing concrete. We know the big bang happened, we know how long ago it occurred, but we're not yet to the point where we can talk about the "something before." There was a cause, but that's all we can say. You'll need to provide pretty concrete proof about when the universe will end in order to qualify your currently illogical objections.
If you don't think scientists use presuppositions to come to their conclusions, then you have blinders on.
Questions...
1. Is the universe eternal or did it create itself?
2. What evidence do you have to show that nothing exists beyond the natural world?
3. Do you agree with this quote?
‘Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic’ Todd, S.C., correspondence to Nature 401(6752):423, 30 Sept. 1999.
4. What is your definition of naturalism as a philosophy?
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,917 Likes: 156
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 15,917 Likes: 156 |
You should have told your family in Turkey, Christianity is not under attack in the U.S.
Public schools, along with State and Federal governments including our federal and local facilities are under attack by religious factions, including Christians, that demand everyone to conform to their beliefs.
Hence the reason our forefathers wanted a separation of church and state in the first place.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,276 |
It would be fair to say 99.99% of religious people aren't basing their beliefs because of a vast understanding of Poppers falsification and the problem of induction right?  The main philosophical question in so far as naturalism would be concerned (especially question 3) is how do you determine truth from falsehood. I'm not much of a philosopher, scientist, or philosopher of science, but I tend to go with empirical evidence. If there are deities out there controlling things I personally think they are jerks for punishing humanity by not leaving a scrap of credible tangible evidence for their existence which we can comprehend. It seems like typing about religion doesn't do much but a lot of "I think this, well I think this!". So here is my futile, I think this! statement. Generally I think people are cultural sponges and religion is an ethical framework / cultural laws with deities tossed in for added oomph. I think anyone here who was born in America would be a Hindu if they were born in India, a Muslim if they were born in Saudi Arabia, an Atheist if they were born in China or to an Atheist family wherever, a Buddhist if they were born in Thailand, and some sort of animalist if they were born in a tribe in the middle of the jungle. Also we'd be Steelers fans if we were born and raised in Pittsburgh 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480 Likes: 26
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,480 Likes: 26 |
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Also we'd be Steelers fans if we were born and raised in Pittsburgh
That is the most disturbing thought in this thread
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,072 Likes: 1118
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,072 Likes: 1118 |
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Also we'd be Steelers fans if we were born and raised in Pittsburgh
That is the most disturbing thought in this thread
x2
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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