the one thing i hear that alarms me is we have receivers dropping balls on both QB's that directly cost us points and turnovers. We gotta change that more than the QB and fast!
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
I know that everyone wants to be positive and they get mad when some of us aren't, but our WRs suck as a group [if Gordon is gone.]
Even w/him, we aren't that good. He drops a ton of passes and isn't a good route runner. He is a physical freak who will make big plays due to his extraordinary athleticism, but he is not a guy who you can count on to make sight adjustments and hot reads.
Some of you will be offended by that because you think he is god, but I am not really bad-mouthing him here. Having a guy who can just blow by the best corners in the league and make huge, huge gains is invaluable.
Who is the guy who is going to find the open hole in the zone to pick up a first down on 3rd down? Who is the guy who is going to recognize the corner blitz and make a hot read? Who is the guy who can make a sight adjustment when the defense disguises its coverage and shifts from one to another? Who is the guy who is going to get open and make the big catch in the end zone?
Quote: Who is the guy who is going to find the open hole in the zone to pick up a first down on 3rd down? Who is the guy who is going to recognize the corner blitz and make a hot read? Who is the guy who can make a sight adjustment when the defense disguises its coverage and shifts from one to another? Who is the guy who is going to get open and make the big catch in the end zone?
I don't think we have that guy.
Possibly Jordan Cameron. But I agree. We really could use one more good receiver. Gordon is good at what he does, but someone that can also play on the outside that we can depend on for possession and making clutch catches. Hawkins might be a useful target too. I'm hoping for a lot from Miles Austin, but we shall see.
I think Shannahan is going to have to do a lot of work figuring out what each guy is good with and putting them in the right positions to succeed. What Gordon does do though, is open the top of the defense. And they should help our running game. Worked in 2007 with Winslow, Edwards, and Lewis (a triangle type of offense with Jurevicious and I think Northcutt making some catches here and there also).
Joe J. was the key. Yeah, Leon and K2 had the big plays, but on 3rd down, DA almost always went to Joe. He found the openings in the zone coverage. DA knew he would be where he was supposed to be. I have some cool stories about the other two and that, but I won't share them right now.
Was Cutt still on the team? I thought he was gone?
I worry about Hawkins' hands. I think he drops too many to be that reliable guy.
We need help there. I was high on Charles Johnson, but it seems he isn't doing so great thus far. Again, we need help at WR.
Thanks steve..............you know I value your opinion. Heck, you are the guy who discovered A. Bryant.
Do you believe any of that? I will say that the point about Jordan was a good one.
Look, the offense did not score a single TD today. There were numerous dropped passes. Hoyer and Manziel's numbers have been putrid. /Thigpin and Shaw have been awful. You don't think that the poor play of the WRs is not at least partially responsible?
Oh, and steve..............I am not saying any of that in a harsh way. Not challenging you. Just kinda down on the WR group. What's your thoughts?
Well, I think I was as vocal as anyone about my displeasure about the lack of a significant WR from the draft, and I did have a bit of a "what is this, 2010?" feeling about the free agent pickups, but all accounts have Austin performing very well, and Burleson has been productive whenever healthy going all the way back to Green Bay... A lot of these drops being reported are the Jim Drays, the Charles Johnsons, Cedric Obueghis... Guys who I think (well I hope anyways) that Shanahan isn't counting on.
What I'm most worried about is definitely the glass jaw this unit seems to have. The injury bug hits and for sure it can go south quickly, but regarding those specific roles you inquired about, I do think those players are in place with the intention of filling those roles.
JMO anyways.
PS, I think the fact that every one of our wide receivers other than Travis Benjamin was not on the active roster last year... And the fact that we are in YET ANOTHER offensive system with its own terminology, is playing a huge role in the offensive struggles. Sadly, I don't think adding someone else to the mix (unless he was a physical freak like Gordon) would help the situation much for those reasons.
Manzeil 3 of 7 for 14 yards Hoyer 7 of 11 for 56 yards
How is that "Manziel narrowing the gap"?
Did you read the entire article? Those weren't the only plays.
I actually get the feeling that the media hasn't been completely honest about this qb competition thus far. It was harder for them to lie today because so many people witnessed it.
I'll wait for the preseason games and draw my own conclusions, but make no mistake, the media seems to want to see this guy fail, just like many of our own fans seemingly want him to.
I will admit that my attention tends to fade as some of these "writers" drone on. The article does state excluding red zone drills which I hadn't caught the 1st time I looked at the article. But seems to me that would be the majority of the plays. They didn't give the stats from the red zone drills.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
If, and this is a big IF ...... but if Gordon is able to play this year, and if the veterans we signed can stay healthy, this would be our best WR corps since 2007 .... and maybe even better than that group.
We had Edwards, Winslow, and Joe J ..... and that was it in 2007,
This year we could have Gordon, Cameron, Austin, Burleson, and a youngster or 2.
If Gordon plays this year, we might have a very good receiver group. It all depends on whether or not he wins his appeal though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
If Austin and Burleson are healthy, and if Gordon is not suspended .... which, granted, is a lot of ifs ...... but if those things happen, then this is probably our best receiving corps since we returned.
It's a lot of "Ifs" ... but stranger things have happened. We also will certainly continue to look for receivers, especially as teams start trimming,and some veterans drop off other rosters.
We'll have to wait and see how things work out.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Man................I respect your opinion, but I think this is one of the worst receiving groups in the NFL and even in our pathetic history.
Okay, so I just looked up our 2007 depth chart.
WR: Tim Carter, Josh Cribbs, "Leon", Joe J., and Travis "The Best WR in the Draft" Wilson (FYI, Calvin Johnson was in that draft. Sure wish Wilson was as good as he was confident).
TE: Winslow, Heiden, Darnell Dinkins.
So Winslow and Heiden caught balls. So did Leon and Joe J. Cribbs was still early in his time here, so possibly that Flash Package and some reverses, otherwise he was the human torpedo one man wrecking crew Kick/Punt Returner (and that might have been the season of his career. Single handidly, by returning the ball the way he did, he might have done more for the offense that year than possibly anyone)
Now, as Ytown says, hoping for the best. We have Gordon (at least equal to Braylon, both take the top off a defense) and Cameron (a step down from Winslow, Winslow was awesome, but still darn good). I'd call that close to even.
So we've got Heiden and Joe Jurevicious vs our backup who's supposed to be decent Dray?, Miles Austin (or place in Hawkins) vs Joe Jurevicious. Then Tim Carter and Travis Wilson vs Andrew Hawkins (or Miles Austin), and a combo of Travis Benjamin (deep threat), Anthony Armstrong, Nate Burleson, and Willie Snead. I have little faith in that Packers Practice Squad guy, and I figure Snead has the best shot of the rookie receivers to make the squad.
At least on paper, I don't think it looks much worse than 2007. That was our most successful offensive year since we came back I imagine. Probably more successful than the playoff year of Holcomb/Couch.
We just really have to hope for the best for Gordon. We have Gordon, safety help becomes mandatory, and that can be used to set up the run and open up other guys inside. This was done the same way with Braylon in 2007.
As Ytown said, a lot of this depends on Gordon, but he'd make a world of difference. I know we still lost all those games with Gordon's 1700 yards last year or whatever, but our offense would have been far worse without him. We were in most games, just would blow it at the end.
Lol looking at your depth chart I am reminded that we once fielded Tim Carter ... this team has had so many of "those" guys ... it's tough to keep track of them, but when it jolts your memory you laugh
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Quote: It is the worst receiving group in the NFL sans Gordon.
And it's not much better with him. Lots of uncertainty beyond Gordon and Cameron.
What makes it the worst?
Just chiming in here Peen because I've been thinking about this subject as well. Which teams do have a worse WR corp (assuming we don't have Gordon)? Carolina comes to mind. Maybe Jacksonville? I'm not sure
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Quote: Lol looking at your depth chart I am reminded that we once fielded Tim Carter ... this team has had so many of "those" guys ... it's tough to keep track of them, but when it jolts your memory you laugh
Other than Gordon [who probably won't be available] and Jordan, this year's entire receiving corps are "those guys."
When we started out, I was more worried about the QB's. Now I'm not so sure, you would think with all the vet's we have at WR we'd be in good shape there. I think we have more talent this yr. than last yr. on O. With Tate and West we seem to have a good RB combo and a stronger OL with a new G. But..even with only one rookie WR (Sneed) We just not putting it together yet. CJ might make the Team, but I think it's gonna take a least a Yr. before he recovers from the ACL and learns the system. If we put him on the practice squad he's most likely gone. I hope it's just a matter of time for everyone to get on the same page. We just need to gel on O.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
Quote: Lol looking at your depth chart I am reminded that we once fielded Tim Carter ... this team has had so many of "those" guys ... it's tough to keep track of them, but when it jolts your memory you laugh
Other than Gordon [who probably won't be available] and Jordan, this year's entire receiving corps are "those guys."
That's most receiving corps though.
They have a couple of top options, and several "guys". The Steelers, for example, have who ...... Antonio Brown and maybe Heath Miller? (though hes a "guy" these days too) They brought in Lance Moore, but he's been on the downside. They drafted a guy in the 4rth .... and we'll see. They have has=d some success with mid round receivers, owing to their QB play, I think ...... but right now, they really have one top end player, and a bunch of "those other guys".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Gordon, Austin, Cameron and btw I am loving this kid Sneed, is a damn good combination. I think guys like Burelson and Armstrong are going to have a difficult time making this team. I am not yet worried about this group of receivers. We lose Gordon, then we can worry cause you arent gonna find his replacement anywhere but Austin is the best #2 receiver we have had since the 80s. Just have to keep his hamstrings loose.
I also feeel our RBs are really gonna become part of our pass offense. Defense is always ahead of offense this time of year and right now I am not the least bit concerned with the receivers.
They also have Ben. He won a couple of Super Bowls. We don't even have a QB who has started an entire season.
I know it's a downer, but I don't have a lot of hope for this offense. Maybe I am wrong and you guys are right. I hope that's the way it plays out. We'll see.
I thought that Armstrong was being counted on as the one who could stretch the field? Course if you can't catch the ball then it's a moot point anyway. Who else do we have that can play outside? I mean besides sending CJ out there every once in a while or baby hawk?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
We will probably only keep 5 and if Gordon wins his appeal, it will be hard. Gordon, austin, Hawkins, I think Sneed makes it as he is now getting reps with first team and has some chemistry with Johny. So now you have Burleson, Benjamin, Amstrong and Johnson competing for 1 slot most likelly to go to thebest special teamer.
Without Gordon, we won't have anyone to stretch the field. Teams will crowd the LOS and it is going to make things very difficult for our running game and either of our two QBs due to their lack of experience and mediocre arms.
Well, if that's the case then I would have to say it's bengi. If we don't have Gordon then it just about has to be Armstong. We need a constant outside WR that can go deep. So I say if that's the case we go with 6 WR.
Vers. I thought JM had a strong arm?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
Quote: Without Gordon, we won't have anyone to stretch the field. Teams will crowd the LOS and it is going to make things very difficult for our running game and either of our two QBs due to their lack of experience and mediocre arms.
I think Hawkins can stretch the field...watch the vid.
I also think Benji can stretch the field.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
IDK, i see the logic, but I am not so sure the absence of JG chances the scheme against us much.
You will still have their best CB on our #1 receiver and probably offer some help over the top with a safety, our #2 will be manned up on the other side.
If so their other safety will shade the box as run suport and also as backside pass support as they would match up zone with their LB's underneath.
The difference will be that over the top support for the #1 will be mitigated and allow that safety to shade more to the center of the field which offers support on seam routes.
As a result I would expect less from the slot ( Hawkins?) than we would get with JG but much of the close to the same production on the trail routes , hooks and other underneath, we would get with JG... NOW>>>the production will be reduced some ( depending on how well we run the ball and the strength of the D middle defense) because if you have better coverage on the seam routes ( see above) the drop of the MLB's does not have to be as deep.
I would expect to see a lot of wheel routes, 12 yard flag type patterns ( whatever you O guys call that) and the like because regardless of JG or not a WR going deep still clears the zone. just MHO from the other side.
The 31 year old??? Douglas I think that is his name...he can definitely stretch vertical!
Not really in the mood for arguing. But this is probably the best WR UNIT we ever had. Considering top to bottom.
Austin, Burleson, Hawkins, Gordon (yeah a maybe), Cameron got to include him even though his contract has him as a TE. Benjamin was a weapon before his injury. Douglas - guy can FLY!
Barnidge no slumph. Thats him with the TD that wasn't right?
Does Manziel have the stuff to make something happen out of nothing...Oh man yes, why I think he will be great.
Under Center, Release, Pre Snap, Pocket accuracy, Pocket decision...just NO WHERE close to HOYER. Manziel Brings it Game time...without a doubt again, why he will be great.
Hoyer the best QB for the Browns to win in 2014...no doubt in my mind.
Bozo's wanting Manziel to fail...why they are Bozo's and they wishing that to happen too too hard. I said it before they want to "BREAK" JM with all this crap...and include the Frankenstein WR Reed in that BOZO Crew!
Jmho...Hoyer will be fine...Manziel will become one of the Greatest Browns QBs !
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
My confidence in manziel just comes from the improvements I saw this kid make. he won the Heisman as a freshman and he comes back year 2 and arm strength improved, accuracy improved, he became a better passer from the pocket. Then at his proday, I thought his mechanics and footwork improved and his arm strength improved even more and he was throwing the deep ball with much better precision. And now after a week in camp, he is getting the ball out much quicker almost as fast as Hoyer. This is steady growth.
I think right now he probably has a top 10 NFL arm. Top 5 in mobility. The rest we will see but I like our chances with this kid and he will make those around him better. I think our run game could be scary with the shannahan stretch runs and West. BTW Crowell is coming on strong from everything i am hearing. Tate may be our short yardage back before all is said and done lol.
You believe Top 10 NFL arm? I wouldn't know if he does or not. I would be very optimistic if this were true.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Manzeil 3 of 7 for 14 yards Hoyer 7 of 11 for 56 yards
How is that "Manziel narrowing the gap"?
he was 2 of 7 the last time?
that is exactly what I was going to say...
JMFFB has a long way to go based on what everyone not in the national media is saying. However, the national media tends to be more right than Browns fans.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
That's Armstrong. IIRC, he played for Shanahan in the past, and had a nice season under him. He is smaller, at 5'10", but has good speed. I don't know why he never caught on anywhere else,
In 2010, he caught 44 passes for 871 yards, 19.8 per catch, and 3 TD ..... and then fell off the map. The NFL is really weird sometimes.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Armstrong...got to remember his name I keep thinking of Douglas for some reason.
All I know is he can stretch the field vertical.
Also with a son a Cowboy fan and we got the ticket and a lot of 4pm games or the Thurs. Sunday Monday nite games I saw a lot of them. Miles Austin will drop your easy passes now and then. But excellent on the deep outs.
I say this crew is the best we had as a WR Corp...I also do know they came here mostly on injuries from last year. Why those stats were a little skewed for yards and catches. Little Bess and Gordon were pretty much out there all year long...Gordon missed two and I think Bess missed a couple at the end too.
I did read that before regarding 70+% catches when thrown to by Burleson...didn't know Hawkins too. Have we ever had that before...even JJ didn't have that kind of success.
But Gentlemen...Ladies...we got a NEW and complicated Offense that we are transitioning to again. You have to understand the difference from KNOWING THE PLAYS to EXECUTING THE PLAYS...those are two different things.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: I did read that before regarding 70+% catches when thrown to by Burleson...didn't know Hawkins too. Have we ever had that before...even JJ didn't have that kind of success.
cribs was at 68% in 2011 as I recall. I would think jj was better? it was why I was saying that cribs was a better receiver than little that year.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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