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Quote:
Yeah, me for the one side. 
I was there with you in saying that both draft pick trades were good trades.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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j/c ....... thought about a new thread called "QB Competition" ........ but figure it can start here.
Is anyone else hearing an overwhelming shift in media Browns coverage all suggesting Manziel is catching up to Hoyer - and that many feel he should start. I am really surprised. I thought it was something of a lock Hoyer would start.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Manziel is starting to come on and until yesterday Hoyer had been sliping a bit. Its tight and preseason will decide who gets the opportunity.
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That would mean Manziel is better than I had imagined. Good for Browns.
Is there a player the FO drafted in the first 3 rounds that isn't looking like he is going to contribute?? Time will tell - but it's encouraging compared to many former drafts.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Hell there is a chance we could have 6 or 7 rookies contributing this year and I think we will see Bitonio, Manziel, West, Kirksey and Gilbert all starting before this year is out. Desire is looking like he will be our nickel and Snead is already getting work with the ones as well and then we have Crowell coming on strong and the rookie DL from FSU stole the show at the scrimmage.
This class is looking special. We have to give Banner credit those trades last year getting those extra picks looks like are paying off huge dividends this year. Not just the drafted but we have a few undrafted that are making a name for themselves.
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Hell there is a chance we could have 6 or 7 rookies contributing this year and I think we will see Bitonio, Manziel, West, Kirksey and Gilbert all starting before this year is out. Desire is looking like he will be our nickel and Snead is already getting work with the ones as well and then we have Crowell coming on strong and the rookie DL from FSU stole the show at the scrimmage.
This class is looking special. We have to give Banner credit those trades last year getting those extra picks looks like are paying off huge dividends this year. Not just the drafted but we have a few undrafted that are making a name for themselves.
Well also have to take into account that this was considered one of the deepest drafts in a long time...could be a lot of rookies across the league are confirming this, and I like it 
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When has a veteran ever been excited about a rookie QB, especially given our recent history?
I'm sure you could have found a bunch of Seahawks saying they would prefer Matt Flynn at the time.
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Legend
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Somebody should shove that In Billicks face...actually I'd love to shove it somewhere completely different.
Eli Manning an Overall #1 pick did not start the season - not until it was basically done at the 11th game.
Kosar probably an Overall #1 pick (we had to trade for the overall# 1 to get their rights) for the pick of Kosar in the supplemental draft. He didn't start till Danielson got hurt mid season???
So what is all this Crapola about a kid who came out very early - just turned 21, was in a One read offense hardly ever under center - a 15 play chart worded in 101 Dick & Jane Language - See spot run. Now gets a War & Peace Novel and has to pick it all up.
A 22nd overall pick - But he has to start Day one or else be considered a BUST. right out of the mouth of that self proclaimed genius. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Thanks for the link.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Eli Manning an Overall #1 pick did not start the season - not until it was basically done at the 11th game.
They were 5-3 when they put Eli in over Warner..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1039523/an/0/page/0#Post1039523
Interesting how vers mind works..
Most people were agreeing with him, yet he only remembers the very few who didn't.
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Quote:
Quote:
Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1039523/an/0/page/0#Post1039523
Interesting how vers mind works..
Most people were agreeing with him, yet he only remembers the very few who didn't.
I find it interesting that three consecutive selections in the 7th round of the 2013 NFL Draft are all on the Browns.
216 - Charles Johnson (drafted by Green Bay)
217 - Armonty Bryant
218 - Jordan Poyer (drafted by Philly)
In addition to that, we have 3 others from that round on the team.
227 - Garrett Gilkey
240 - Reid Fragel (drafted by Cincy)
242 - Michael Bowie (drafted by Seattle)
The 7th round of the 2013 NFL Draft was good for the Browns. 
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The very few?
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Imagine that.........
Aren't you the guy who said that thread didn't exist?
Oh, I was wrong earlier. I think I said it was about 9 pages. It was actually 8 pages.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 08/06/14 08:54 PM.
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I find this article interesting:
"Cleveland Is Ready for the Manziel Era, but His Browns Teammates Aren't so Sure" ... Very revealing.
If he starts ringing up the TD's in regular season, they will be sure.
If not, two years from now we draft another QB and hire another coach. 
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Not sure if this is the one you are all talking about, didn't have time to read every post here about this, but it was very easy to find, as the last couple of draft forums are just down the main page in the Arhives.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1039523/an/0/page/0#Post1039523
Interesting how vers mind works..
Most people were agreeing with him, yet he only remembers the very few who didn't.
I find it interesting that three consecutive selections in the 7th round of the 2013 NFL Draft are all on the Browns.
216 - Charles Johnson (drafted by Green Bay)
217 - Armonty Bryant
218 - Jordan Poyer (drafted by Philly)
In addition to that, we have 3 others from that round on the team.
227 - Garrett Gilkey
240 - Reid Fragel (drafted by Cincy)
242 - Michael Bowie (drafted by Seattle)
The 7th round of the 2013 NFL Draft was good for the Browns.
I think that beats the 3 picks we made in the second round of the 2009 draft.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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j/c
I considered starting a new thread but that's all the board needs, another JFF thread.
My pure football questions, imagine that...
If or when Manziel becomes the starter and teams are game planning against him. If the opposing teams designs a scheme to keep him in the pocket 1) what type of scheme might that be? 2) how might the Browns counter such a scheme?
As I'm writing this I recall that people point to last year's LSU game as an example of how to neutralize Manziel. So after work today I'll take a look at that. Maybe some of you will also. So we can talk about any observations from that game along with any other ideas that interested posters might have.
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j/c...
What's funny is that JM is the back up in this first preseason game. Next one he will start and they will all be saying - he's on his way to be the starter as he "EARNED" that #1 QB spot...lol
What part of QB competition don't they get and that Pettine will make the final decision "BEFORE PRESEASON GAME #3" The last game and the only game the starters actually play a lot in the preseason.
Glad to hear JM is progressing. I've stated before he's very coachable and intelligent book smarts and football smarts.
I still think 2014 is Hoyer's year. If he struggles the first 3 games sure I expect JM to come in after the bye week.
Blast from the past regarding that old thread. I showed consistency in my understanding of the process with the FO. Happy about that. Thought Banner & Co. were doing the right thing...just like I do feel Farmer & Co. also is doing the right thing...just as I thought Heckert was doing the right thing. Nothing ever is perfect but this I do know. WE got a lot of amazing young talent never seen before on a Browns team in the New Era. From that old thread...wish McFadden didn't disappear in the 2013 season...Ok so the homer isn't exactly right on all things.
I did tout Bryant and Gilkey as late round picks that can develop into something special.
Btw...the two kids the Steelers and the other team in the 5th round...who did they take and how are they doing?
Vers n I were on the same page last year - this year the opposite. I thought our draft was pretty darn good. Maybe that Franchise QB...a very very gifted CB, a beat Boi for our OL. A RB that most are going gaga when they see him out there and when you got the Italian kid Tate... Fra - Gi - Lee It must be Italian. He will come in handy. Mac has switched...I know its not good for credibility to have been a homer all the time as we mire ourselves in mediocrity. I still think we are a team of destiny!
QBs that are relevant 2 of them...could be a Gold MIne for us.
RBs best Unit I've seen here.
OL - JT, Boi, Mack, Schwartz....all high picks and all could be considered Good to great after this season. Hey better than picking freaking WRs yeah that helped all those building years.
WRs - yeah maybe no JoshG, but we never got FA like these, yeah they got to stay healthy to matter. But Hawkins is amazing. Burleson is maybe the best old vet WR we ever got. Right there with JJ in leadership. Austin healthy is a Pro Bowler. What kids will step up, its a position that is loaded with prospects that can surprise.
TE on that old thread almost all were yeah We don't have any TE...how did that work out as the TE they said we are going to go with and all the GM wannabees scoffed at that move...well he made the Pro Bowl - no the question is can we afford him in a 2nd contract!
JM - As long as he earns the starting position then I'm ok. But Eli ok he came in with the team 5-3...don't know what they ended up doing I don't remember that team finishing up well. Point is the "BRIDGE QB" had them 5-3 then the "OVERALL #1 PICK" came in (thought it was game 10? the earliest) Anyways doesn't change my point. Not many of those same nimrod Bozo so called sports Journalist or Expert analysis guys claimed ELI was a bust for not winning the starting spot.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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All Pro
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This is the first time in a very long time I cannot remember panic already setting in in some quarters about the team. It's kind of weird. Anyone who is really watching what's happening in Berea sees at least some glimmers of hope and just a few places that might be a weakness. Even our purse swinging matches here are far more tame than some in the past.
Maybe that'll change after the Detroit game. Anything can happen. But I can't help but suspect that what leaves training camp after the final cuts will be a football team instead of another exercise in fear and loathing.
Manziel? The outside world wants to see him play because they've heard his name and who in the heck knows Brian Hoyer except a few die hards? I prefer to see Manziel sit until he just can't sit any more. He needs to take the job away from Hoyer.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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I'd love to be optimistic but that was beaten out of me when we hired Mangini to coach the team... since then I've been watching and expecting the wheels to come off. I'll be happy when we finally buck that trend though!
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Winning has been and always will be the cure all!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I want the person that shows the most from scrimmage through those 2 preseason games to get the start. I say that for each position. Johny was the best QB at the scrimmage and he should be the best in those preseason games. Its not a knock on Hoyer but Johny is supposed to be the better QB.
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I want the person that shows the most from scrimmage through those 2 preseason games to get the start. I say that for each position. Johny was the best QB at the scrimmage and he should be the best in those preseason games. Its not a knock on Hoyer but Johny is supposed to be the better QB.
If he isn't the starter I'll be surprised.
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I have mixed emotions. I wanted JM badly knowing he would be our franchise QB. I think Hoyer has the confidence of the players who were here last season. I think he will give us the best chance to execute an offense. On the other hand JM has that sixth sense that excitement to make things happen and in the reality tire out a Defense.
JM is not the better QB right now...but he has the better UPSIDE that is for sure. I get the urge for many to want that Manziel ERA to start. I actually am prepared to have this 2014 season to be Hoyer's - sign him to a new contract. Have JM beat him out in our NEXT Training camp. Have a QB hungry team make us a Trade we Cannot Refuse for Hoyer who would be our Back up!
I don't want Hoyer gone but I would not turn down 2 high draft picks in lieu of him That is how the rich get richer. Its what made the Pats a dynasty trading Bledsoe, Its what made the Cowboys a dynasty trading Herschel Walker. Hey, why not us...go from playoff team to Dynasty
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Legend
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I don't want Hoyer gone but I would not turn down 2 high draft picks in lieu of him
2 high round draft picks? I wouldn't turn that down either ...... but who is going to pay that? 
Why would anyone pay that?
We signed Hoyer as a free agent who no one wanted last year. He had few even decent results to that point in his career. He then came to the Browns, and played a pair of games. In the 1st game, he has decidedly mixed results. In the 2nd, he played well against a team missing 3/4 of their secondary, He played well ...... but there were qualifying factors.
He has what .... 4 or 5 starts in his career? He has looked OK, and good in a pair of games, one against the worst pass defense in the NFL, and the other against a team missing most of their secondary,
Who is going to give us even one high pick for Hoyer, let alone 2? What team do you think would do so? What team do you propose we approach about such a deal?
Hoyer is a valuable player to us, because he has shown that he can be an effective backup.spot starter,even if he becomes nothing more. There is value in a player like that. That value is not 2 high draft picks though.
I think 2 high draft picks is a pipe dream of the highest level. I cannot imagine a team beign so QB starved as to throw away their future for a journeyman QB. I would welcome such a deal ..... but I don't see it happening.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think that beats the 3 picks we made in the second round of the 2009 draft.
I'll show you some belly button lint that is better than that too....
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*In Baker we trust*
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I will be rooting for Manziel bigtime. Because if he does not live up to hype the Browns will lose three or more years.
Quarterbacks drafted in the first round are going to play. That is the law of the NFL. It is only a matter of when it happens.
I hope this draft works out and the players produce at the expected level.
The players signed in FA and the players selected after the first round I have no problem with.
For me I would have loved to be starting this season with Josh Gordon on the roster for the year paired with Sammy Watkins along with the Jordon Cameron and Hoyer and Bridgewater at quarterback.
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I have mixed emotions. I wanted JM badly knowing he would be our franchise QB. I think Hoyer has the confidence of the players who were here last season. I think he will give us the best chance to execute an offense. On the other hand JM has that sixth sense that excitement to make things happen and in the reality tire out a Defense.
JM is not the better QB right now...but he has the better UPSIDE that is for sure. I get the urge for many to want that Manziel ERA to start. I actually am prepared to have this 2014 season to be Hoyer's - sign him to a new contract. Have JM beat him out in our NEXT Training camp. Have a QB hungry team make us a Trade we Cannot Refuse for Hoyer who would be our Back up!
I don't want Hoyer gone but I would not turn down 2 high draft picks in lieu of him That is how the rich get richer. Its what made the Pats a dynasty trading Bledsoe, Its what made the Cowboys a dynasty trading Herschel Walker. Hey, why not us...go from playoff team to Dynasty
I feel exactly the same Eotab. If Hoyer plays great then because he did it for the Browns the NFL will go gaga over him. I don't know about 2 picks for him but I bet we could land a high second or low first round for him if he does well enough to get us to 8-8.
I mean Manziel obviously has the higher ceiling. I just think it helps him in the long run not to start before the bye week at least. I feel like he needs his basic game skills to be better and more ingrained before they set him loose.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I will be rooting for Manziel bigtime. Because if he does not live up to hype the Browns will lose three or more years.
Quarterbacks drafted in the first round are going to play. That is the law of the NFL. It is only a matter of when it happens.
I hope this draft works out and the players produce at the expected level.
The players signed in FA and the players selected after the first round I have no problem with.
For me I would have loved to be starting this season with Josh Gordon on the roster for the year paired with Sammy Watkins along with the Jordon Cameron and Hoyer and Bridgewater at quarterback.
My dream draft had us taking Watkins at 4 or Evans after trading down, then BPA, then in round two taking Jimmy G.
I get that Gilbert might stud out but I wanted Watkins pretty bad =) I want to score POINTS!
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Did you just compare Hoyer to Bledsoe and Herschel Walker? 
Joe Thomas #73
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The Browns named Brian Hoyer their starting quarterback for the first preseason game of the year on Wednesday, but left the door open for Johnny Manziel to get some work with the first team after spending two days this week practicing with the starters. On Thursday, head coach Mike Pettine shut that door almost all the way. Pettine said that the plan for this week’s game against the Lions is for Hoyer to play with the first team while Manziel comes on with the second unit. “I don’t think he will,” Pettine said, via Nate Ulrich of the Akron Beacon Journal. “I think we’re going to let Brian go. The circumstances could change that, obviously, but for this game, I think we’ll stick to the units as we’ve practiced. So Brian with the ones and Johnny with the twos.” Pettine also said that the first team may play a bit more than is usual in the first preseason game because they are running a new offense, but that should still leave Manziel with plenty of snaps to make his case for the starting job. Pettine also said that it’s possible Manziel will start against the Redskins in the second preseason game, a decision which he could sway with a strong performance on Saturday night. http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-against-lions/
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Johnny Football will be our opening day starter.
He will outshine (and out-talent) Hoyer.
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Come on Ytown...1. you shouldn't assume I'm stupid and I shouldn't assume you can read my mind.
Why would anyone pay that?
I'm pretty sure I said something totally different from what you think I said.
1. Hoyer is named the starter...JM our future.
2. In Lieu of Hoyer the starter we sign him to a nice 3 year contract.
3. Hoyer does well we get in or at least sniff the playoffs.
4. Next off season, JM studs out and wins the starting job outright...now Hoyer becomes our back up.
5. Teams some maybe desperate due to lack of or possibly injury to their starting QB.
6. They see the Browns has Hoyer as the back up to JM now (now being 2015 training camp) they offer us 2 2nd round picks for him.
I'm painting a scenario of 2014 being Hoyer's year for us and he does well 10-6.
They don't look at him as a UDFA with little experience. They look at him as a Starting QB.
Bledsoe now the back up to Brady got 2 first round picks in return...notice I suggest 2 2nd rounders not first.
Schaub - Vick backup and I think maybe 5 starts and not many wins...got 2 2nd rounders in trade.
Whitehurst? was River's back up in SD...they got 2 2nd rounders for I think for him.
And I think Whitehurst threw maybe 10 passes in his career in mop up stuff??? If any.
NE used that pick and seem to still be parlaying it to draft day moves. But made a good playoff team (yep SB winner) into a Dynasty.
Atlanta - Took those picks and went from OK team to a powerhouse in the south (last season being a hiccup season)
Chargers - still waiting to what becomes of those picks yet. to help them...Their GM might not have fared well.
My point is not NOW - Next year after playing not 4 games but 20 and being 13-6 in them for a team that could not really win prior to Hoyer...for the position of QB to a team of Have nots...2 draft picks is nothing and I'm talking 2n round picks not first...but I wouldn't mind a 1st n 4th? Probable??? Yes for a team hitting its destiny
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
Quote:
Did you just compare Hoyer to Bledsoe and Herschel Walker?
Only in your mind I'm saying Dynasties need some special thing to happen. Like they did to Dallas n Pats...that was my comparison.
But some of you posters are so intent to I guess show how dumb others are you will spin it to whatever you wish 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,993 Likes: 364
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,993 Likes: 364 |
I see that scenario as being completely unlikely. (to be polite)
I would be stunned almost beyond words if things happen the way you have outlined.
This team is not yet on the level of the Niners or Seahawks, even though that is our goal.
Alex Smith took the Niners to the playoffs, and then played at an extremely high level until replaced by Kaepernick after an injury. The Chiefs gave up a 2nd, and a conditional pick which also wound up being another 2nd.
To get that 2nd 2nd round pick, the Chiefs had to be an 8 or more win team in 2013.
To compare:
Smith has had, in his last 4 seasons, with 67 TD and 27 TD.
Hoyer has had, in 5 seasons, 7 TD and 6 INT.
There really is no comparison, yet you are looking at a similar trade. (or better, if that 2nd pick isn't heavily conditioned)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
Nah you don't get a thing I said... 
Instead bring out the stats...All I care is that Hoyer was 3-0 n what 5td w/3 int...last year and we got this one coming up. You ASSume he's going to bomb. Well duh...of course we don't get a trade. And you site Alex Smith as the example and ignore Shaub and Whitehurst???
People give up a lot for a QB. And I'm talking about Hoyer playing Good, solid Football. JM has "Great in him" why he will take over in the future.
But Good n Solid will have teams a calling. polite...hey thinking somebody is stupid is just that there is no polite about it.
But I politely say to you...If Hoyer is as Good a QB as I think he is. You don't think people won't offer us something to pry him away? Then you do not have a grasp at what importance this league puts in a QB.
And yes, I'm speculating big time. If you state...no no it will not happen Hoyer is not that good. I simply say why not. How do you know. Hey in a short stint...he had a very very high % of our wins last season with 16 games how are you going to tell me he cannot win enough to have heads turn???
If you are stating even if it does happen and we got 9-7 10-6 with Hoyer - people won't offer us that much cause after all the Chiefs only gave up what? 2 2nd rounders for Smith... I forgot...what was your argument on that again - you mean the back up got 2 high picks?
I'm not saying you got to agree with me. But don't mock me with IT can't happen. It has happened and will happen again. People need that QB pure and simple!
Dallas btw will be looking for one soon. Romo ain't got much more time in him
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 305 Likes: 1
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 305 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
I see that scenario as being completely unlikely. (to be polite)
I would be stunned almost beyond words if things happen the way you have outlined.
This team is not yet on the level of the Niners or Seahawks, even though that is our goal.
Alex Smith took the Niners to the playoffs, and then played at an extremely high level until replaced by Kaepernick after an injury. The Chiefs gave up a 2nd, and a conditional pick which also wound up being another 2nd.
To get that 2nd 2nd round pick, the Chiefs had to be an 8 or more win team in 2013.
To compare:
Smith has had, in his last 4 seasons, with 67 TD and 27 TD.
Hoyer has had, in 5 seasons, 7 TD and 6 INT.
There really is no comparison, yet you are looking at a similar trade. (or better, if that 2nd pick isn't heavily conditioned)
The comparison certainly holds true... IF Hoyer studs out this year. That is what Tab is saying. Pretty clearly too I must say. Maybe you think it's unlikely Hoyer studs out and I think Tab would agree with that... it isn't the likely outcome (possible but unlikely). But it is a nice scenario to hope for and I don't see why that is such a problem for some people. Why the barbs come out over a fan's speculation of possibly having some good fortune for once.
Truth is the "likely" scenario is that we are a terrible team again winning maybe 6 games. It's "likely" both Hoyer and JFF struggle mightily. Struggling has been the norm for this franchise and until that changes anyone expecting anything close to a real turnaround is expecting something that is "completely unlikely". Awesome. So now I'm depressed. Happy?
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