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YTown...........I understand the game just fine. I've been around it enough to understand it. I know things happen in the course of a game, YTown.
You can politic all you want, but who do you think you are kidding? You can point out how PATHETIC Minni was and harp on the Bengals missing starters, but do you really believe that people did not watch the games?
Anyone w/even a partial clue could see the difference of how Hoyer played vs Weeden. Anyone w/an observatory skills could see how much more life the rest of the players had when Hoyer was in there. You can keep making excuses as to why he succeeded, but I am pretty sure you didn't like what Hoyer did because it made Weeden look like who he really is. And you hitched your wagon to Weeden so strongly, you had no other recourse other than to belittle Hoyer's performances.
The crazy thing is you were constantly making excuses for Weeden's poor play and then you turned around and made excuses for Hoyer's good play. I really don't want to call you out on this anymore. Just let it go.
Let's just focus on what Hoyer and Manziel are doing this year. Okay? I don't think Hoyer is playing well. I think the knee is a mental hurdle that he keeps tripping over. I could be wrong........that is total speculation, but that is the feeling I am getting.
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Quote:
...
Hoyer in 11-on-11
Length Left Center Right
20 yds. plus 3-5 3-4 5-11
10-20 yds. 2-5 13-22 6-12
Under 10 yds. 22-33 11-19 10-19
Totals 27-43 27-45 21-42
Overall 75-130
Manziel in 11-on-11
Length Left Center Right
20 yds. plus 3-5 0-0 3-4
10-20 yds. 1-8 11-20 7-13
Under 10 yds. 5-17 7-10 20-27
Totals 9-30 18-30 30-44
Overall 57-104
That kind of surprises me. Hoyer is throwing the ball deep a LOT more. He is also spreading it around a lot more. That gives me the impression he is seeing the field well.
Manziel seems to favor the right quite a bit and is horribly inaccurate on the left. No deep balls over mid? I kind of expected that considering Manziel like to roll out to the right a lot and when doing that its hard to throw across the body to the left accurately. This is why he needs to learn to throw more from the pocket.
Just going by results regardless of excuses Hoyer is playing a lot better.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I think it is pretty dangerous to use those stats to draw any conclusions. Let's watch these guys in preseason and make up our own minds. LOL............we'll probably all disagree anyway. Wait.....that was wrong. Leave out the "probably." 
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Has anyone here been to camp?
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Quote:
Just out of curiosity, have you been to any camps?
Not this year
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Has anyone here been to camp?
I have not... I vote for the qb that can lead us to a 3-0 start to start the season 
<><
#gmstrong
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Not picking on you, but I have to ask -- I see a lot of people saying "Manziel hasn't shown enough" but they haven't been to camp.
I guess I just don't understand, because everything I've read from National and local guys is that Manziel is winning the job.
I've gotten the vibe that they went into camp with the mindset of Johnny Manziel will not be the starter Week 1, but that Manziel is flat out winning the job (And now there's "competition")
That's everything I've read and a couple people I've talked to who have been there have said the same things.
I'm just curious if you've read something different, or what that makes you think "Manziel hasn't shown enough"
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I think it will still hold true. I saw much of the same thing in the college games I watched him playing. Those throws across the body are going to haunt him when the real defenses come out to play.
I think with coaching he can overcome it but I just don't think it will be this year. That's just my opinion though. I said the same before the draft so it's not like I am being inconsistent in my thoughts just because we drafted him. I hope very much he overcomes those issues.
They already know he can throw it good on the run so IMHO his practice should focus on making him stay in the pocket more.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Quote:
You can point out how PATHETIC Minni was and harp on the Bengals missing starters, but do you really believe that people did not watch the games?
I would hope that people take all factors into account when evaluating players, and, in fact, what they see on the field certainly plays a huge part .... but who the teams played has to as well. If you play the Super Bowl Ravens, for example, success will have a very different appearance than playing the 2013 Vikings. That is my point, and I think that is absolutely is a valid one.
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Anyone w/even a partial clue could see the difference of how Hoyer played vs Weeden.
I never said that Hoyer wasn't a vast improvement over Weeden. Weeden is the past. That is not in dispute.
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Anyone w/an observatory skills could see how much more life the rest of the players had when Hoyer was in there.
This point is not in question. Hoyer definitely knew/knows how to work the whole team as a leader. His leadership is not in dispute.
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You can keep making excuses as to why he succeeded, but I am pretty sure you didn't like what Hoyer did because it made Weeden look like who he really is.
Quite an assumption on your part. I want a winning team .... and I don't care if we accomplish that by bringing back Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye as a 2 headed QB to get there. (though I would still have my doubts such a thing would work)
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And you hitched your wagon to Weeden so strongly, you had no other recourse other than to belittle Hoyer's performances.
Absolutely, 100% wrong. I do not consider a reasoned observation and evaluation of a player to be belittling. Should I say that you merely belittled Weeden ..... or did you evaluate what you saw?
It does seem like you sometimes to try to belittle others to hold up your opinion sometimes. I honestly do believe that. Instead of arguing points, you throw snide comments in. I'm not sure why that is.
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I think the knee is a mental hurdle that he keeps tripping over.
Yet he did get hit on the knee the other day, and came through 100%. He said that he was amazed that he didn't even have a hint of pain the next day.
Just because I think that Hoyer had certain things that helped account for his (somewhat mixed, though promising) performance, doesn't mean that I think that he is a talentless bum, who will never be able to do anything at all. What it does mean is that while he did accomplish some good in his time starting last year, and while he definitely demonstrated leadership at the QB spot, there were also some factors that concerned me. Maybe you have no such concerns, and that's fine.
However, what it does mean is that I am unwilling to proclaim him the undisputed answer do our QB quandary. I am unwilling to say that he is, 100%, the answer to our problems.
Face it, if the Bengals and Vikings games were faultless performances, and if the team had no doubts about his performance as QB, then we would never have invested a #1 pick in Manziel. We would have just assumed that he was the answer, and moved forward with Hoyer as our franchise guy. That is not what happened though. Hoyer did a very good job for a team in desperate need of a good job at QB ...... but he left enough doubt that the team could not name him the starter and go forward with him. Would you, based on the Vikings and Bengals games, have made that decision? That is, in a way, what you are arguing, because if you see his performance as exceptional, and without any drawbacks, then you should want Hoyer to be the guy going forward. Why wouldn't you? If he was that good, at everything, then he should be our guy. He isn't, though, He is a competitor for the job.
The worst thing that could have happened last year, happened. Hoyer showed some promise, and then got hurt. The team could not name him the undisputed starter, and they couldn't simply replace him. Instead, we were left to play out the rest of the year with an ineffective combination of Weeden and Campbell, instead of finding out where Hoyer would have fit on the competency scale, on the long term.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The reality is that tomorrow will likely be the first time any of us have seen him in a Browns uniform.
And tomorrow carries a lot of weight on who starts the season as QB1
you had a good run Hank.
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Thanks for the stats, Vers. I'm not one for internet research on such things, but I gotta admit- it was kind of fun reading that. I'm a 'visual' guy... and just reading the data took me back to that sequence of plays. It was kinda fun re-running that part of the game in my mind (...until the end of that last play- OUCH! That's the 'downside of having a visual memory.' I wince every time anyone mentions RG3's injury for the same reason... hehehe) And My Boy arch: Quote:
I'll trust the coaches to make the right decisions. In other words, I don't want JM starting because he's JM - I want the best qb starting.
Me, too.
I get a "No BS" vibe from this coaching staff. There seems to be a different "feel" about them from other staffs that we've had in the past. I know that I have no data to back up what I'm saying, but my intuition has always been fairly acute. I'm rarely wrong, when it comes to people and what they'll do.
To me, this bunch just feels.... solid.
It's hard for me to believe that this bunch of guys would do anything other than work a straight-up, professional assessment of their data, and make a decision based upon that.
From all that I read, these guys (OC, DC, HC) are handling their business like true professionals. I don't expect that to change when it's time to name a starter for the reg season.
For some reason (...and I have no history with these guys to form my opinion...), I just trust them to make the best choice.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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J/C
We are Johnny Football.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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JC
I know a lot of people were pimping Bridgewater, myself included, his preaseason debut nothing really to write home about:
6 of 13 for 49 yards. Took a red zone sack and some others. What will Johnny Football do tonight? I'm sure half the world will be watching...
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Quote:
JC
I know a lot of people were pimping Bridgewater, myself included, his preaseason debut nothing really to write home about:
6 of 13 for 49 yards. Took a red zone sack and some others. What will Johnny Football do tonight? I'm sure half the world will be watching...
You know what's crazy? His debut was ugly, but so was every other QB on the Vikings roster. So I guess he still has a shot. But he needs to protect that ball and just take a sack, cause that fumble in the red zone could've been 100 percent avoidable.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I agree on Minnesota's OL being awful and he shouldn't have fumbled that ball.
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Quote:
I agree on Minnesota's OL being awful and he shouldn't have fumbled that ball.
I think awful is an understatement. I hope it isn't cause of norv turner style of offense.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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But he needs to protect that ball ...
Did the gloves not fit? Small hands; just wait 'til cold weather! Seriously though, I hope he does well, but that JM is clear cut the superior QB...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Quote:
Quote:
But he needs to protect that ball ...
Did the gloves not fit? Small hands; just wait 'til cold weather! Seriously though, I hope he does well, but that JM is clear cut the superior QB...
Yea I'm team Manziel now that we got him. I hope he kills it while he's on our team.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I watched that game through until both Bridgewater and Carr were done. There's no way Minnesota can start Cassell and say he gives them the best chance to win...looked like me throwing the ball out there. Bridgewater has to make some better decisions out there, though. He threw to covered guys a number of times and OAK secondary is nothing to write home about. His best play was probably the first one on the rollout that got called back for a procedural penalty.
Carr had his ups and downs as well, but was hurt by four drops (two by Little, two by the FB including the INT). The play that bothered me was the third and short with trips right when he had Moore open for the first down but went to the guy in the flat who came up short.
Just the first preseason game for both guys. Both showed some good and some bad.
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Quote:
Not picking on you, but I have to ask -- I see a lot of people saying "Manziel hasn't shown enough" but they haven't been to camp.
I guess I just don't understand, because everything I've read from National and local guys is that Manziel is winning the job.
I've gotten the vibe that they went into camp with the mindset of Johnny Manziel will not be the starter Week 1, but that Manziel is flat out winning the job (And now there's "competition")
That's everything I've read and a couple people I've talked to who have been there have said the same things.
I'm just curious if you've read something different, or what that makes you think "Manziel hasn't shown enough"
Fair question. I have only the coaches who speak up, the players that speak of hoyer and manziel and the media.
Which oddly enough, I haven't heard anyone say he was winning the job. I've heard them (meaning everyone above except the players) say everything from Hoyers miles ahead of Manziel to Manziel closing the gap to Manziel is closer than we thought. I think I remember hearing a few weeks ago that Shanahan thought it was even. That's the best I've read.
As for anyone I know that's gone, I've not heard he's winning. They were however,, in awe of him to some extent. the kid has skills which excited the hell out of me as a fan of the Browns.
But I've heard NOBODY say he's winning the job.
I've said it before, I don't have a horse in this race. I don't give a damn who the QB is, I just want to start winning.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
I get a "No BS" vibe from this coaching staff. There seems to be a different "feel" about them from other staffs that we've had in the past. I know that I have no data to back up what I'm saying, but my intuition has always been fairly acute. I'm rarely wrong, when it comes to people and what they'll do.
To me, this bunch just feels.... solid.
It's hard for me to believe that this bunch of guys would do anything other than work a straight-up, professional assessment of their data, and make a decision based upon that.
From all that I read, these guys (OC, DC, HC) are handling their business like true professionals. I don't expect that to change when it's time to name a starter for the reg season.
For some reason (...and I have no history with these guys to form my opinion...), I just trust them to make the best choice.
I agree, it's not quantifiable but the feeling is there.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
I get a "No BS" vibe from this coaching staff. There seems to be a different "feel" about them from other staffs that we've had in the past. I know that I have no data to back up what I'm saying, but my intuition has always been fairly acute. I'm rarely wrong, when it comes to people and what they'll do.
To me, this bunch just feels.... solid.
It's hard for me to believe that this bunch of guys would do anything other than work a straight-up, professional assessment of their data, and make a decision based upon that.
From all that I read, these guys (OC, DC, HC) are handling their business like true professionals. I don't expect that to change when it's time to name a starter for the reg season.
For some reason (...and I have no history with these guys to form my opinion...), I just trust them to make the best choice.
I agree, it's not quantifiable but the feeling is there.
That seems to be a consensus among most fans both on here and just folks that are friends and heavy browns fans.
NO BS coaching.
Now, they haven't really had to defend any decisions they've made on game day,, That is usually where we may see some "taking cover" type thinking.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
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But he needs to protect that ball ...
Did the gloves not fit? Small hands; just wait 'til cold weather! Seriously though, I hope he does well, but that JM is clear cut the superior QB...
Yea I'm team Manziel now that we got him. I hope he kills it while he's on our team.
One thing I know with absolute certainty .......
Every move Manziel makes in the preseason game against the Lions will be analyzed, inspected, rehashed, scrutinized, and regurgitated until it is time to do it all again for the 2nd game. lol 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Question for the board, especially guys that watch a lot of college football (I pretty much only watch OSU) ... what kind of arm does Manziel have? Does he have:
A.) An elite, top 5 or 6 in the league throwing arm? (I read this somewhere recently - maybe here - but one of the problems with getting older is remembering where you saw what you think you saw.)
B.) An above average arm?
C.) Strictly average arm?
D.) Below average arm?
E.) Ken Dorsey arm?
My thinking before seeing a reference to him having an elite arm was that he was slightly above average in arm strength ... but now would like to hear from guys that saw more of him than I did. Thanks in advance.
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I don't think that he has an elite, rocket launcher type arm ...... but probably an upper quarter to third type instead. His arm is strong enough to make any throw necessary, and throwing a middle to deeper out shouldn't be any problem for him.
He also has huge hands, so that should help him hang onto the ball, even in poor conditions, and should let him generate good spin to cut through the Cleveland winter winds. .
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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everything I've read from National and local guys is that Manziel is winning the job. Not knowing your generation...but they don't teach history like they use to. "READ" so much of journalism - Politics, International and yes Sports has fallen under the realm of "YELLOW JOURNALISM" if you don't know what this is...study it.
2. Also a very natural thing is to remember what is important to you. As stated on the what was it Wed. or Thurs practice...the last one. Yeah there was a big right up on JM and all his throws and how he had his best day in camp...the same articles, buried a comment of, Oh Hoyer had his best day too.
Its easy to miss that. JM isn't winning anything. The media is trying its darndest to get him elected...errr named the starter. Look at the Off season how many hits they got on their tweets talking about Johnny did this Johnny did that. Imagine him as the Browns starter. yeah the tweets will be more football but never the less cause people many around football and many with a casual interest in football are intrigued. HE IS A GREAT STORY...him as a back up. What are they going to talk about? Gino Smith?
I think it was stated somewhere. If he truly WINS the competition then its ok. But not put him out there due to media or fan pressure.
I don't wish to be a Coach B...but I know my football. There is no way JM can win the starting QB position for 2014. Just too much to learn - too much to digest. And Hoyer truly GETS IT. The difference of talent does not make up for the GETTING IT PART! Yes it can be that simple.
I have no doubt..NO DOUBT, keep in mind JM was my QB of choice in this draft! I thought no way we would get him...I'm so tickled pink that we did. Only did that happen 3 times before. Greg Pruit, Leroy Hoard, Joe Thomas...This draft...talk about DESTINY. There was a thread regarding 1.2.3. choices for Day 2 2nd round. ummmm my choices were 1. Bitonio, 2. Bitonio. 3. Oh and Bitonio
So when I talk about this QB thing and JM I do so knowing that JM is going to be a true STAR for us.
Look, he came from a system that used a 15 play chart...He came from a system that was simply ONE READ. He came from a system that rarely had him go under center. He came from a system that relied on his IMPROVISATION greatly! He came from a system that had NO SYSTEM!
There is so much he has to learn. So much for him to reach that STAR QB I know is there.
These Idiots and yes I'm calling Billick an Idiot and I'll say that to his face if I get a chance. Saying you cannot learn on the sidelines. Dion the meSanders says that too. As if QB is similar to CB Fact is this. When players especially Rookies are playing. Its not a thinking mans game its a REACTING Mans game including the QB, especially the QB. Knowing the play is not KNOWING! Its reacting to the PLAY. Well it so happens Hoyer has had the PWANG happen to him and he actually knows what happening via REACTION. JM know way he does!
Now I know people will say hey what about him starting now so he can KNOW BETTER...nah this is where I'm sorry to say my experience with football does kick in. Let me tell you how that works.
When you are in a REACTION mode...you don't correct yourself and do the right thing. A rare occasion possibly. But for most when you go in reaction mode you go into all the bad habits the coaches are trying to rid of. Now you will say well won't they be there next year. NO repetition of just the good over n over will rid of the BAD HABITS. Eventually they will take over as the "REACTION". Now that might be mid season of this 2014. But if Hoyer is doing well we won't change horses. That pretty much is what I'm talking about. I am not trying to be condescending. I don't know how to explain what I KNOW AS FACTS. I'm don't care who is right or wrong. I don't need pats on the back for verification of my football. I know what I know. I've made many a QB - I've seen them prosper and I've seen them fail. I've seen them abandon the pocket and go into bad habits. I've heard the excuses, coach I'm a running QB... been there done that.
jmho...it will be a diservice to the Browns and to JM to have him start day one. Just so some fans can rock their jocks or Media to get a story. Its actually the only way that can RUIN THIS! It doesn't mean it will. Just the odds are so much better the other way! I hope Haslam stays out of this. Let the coaches do it their way.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I would say he has an slightly above average NFL arm. Here is an article about his pro day and arm strength: Quote:
Texas A&M star Johnny Manziel showcases big arm, discipline during Pro Day workout in front of NFL decision-makers
Eight coaches and eight GMs packed into College Station’s field house, Texans head coach Bill O’Brien and Vikings head coach Mike Zimmer among them. The Heisman Trophy winner completed 61 of his 64 throws during his 45-minute workout.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footba...ticle-1.1736791
From his antics off the field to his free-wheeling style of play on it, nothing about Johnny Manziel has ever been normal.
And his pro day on Thursday at Texas A&M was no different. Former President George W. Bush showed up to watch, and Nike tried to transform the entire event — which was televised on ESPN2 and streamed on the network’s website — into a cash grab. And in between all that, Johnny Football did his best to show that he can play NFL football, completing 61 of his 64 throws during his 45-minute workout.
With rap music playing in the background, Manziel made an instant impression, showing up in a helmet and pads. Typically, quarterbacks work through pro day sessions in a T-shirt and shorts, so Manziel instantly set himself apart for a host of NFL decision-makers. Eight coaches and eight GMs packed into College Station’s field house, Texans coach Bill O’Brien and Vikings coach Mike Zimmer among them.
Those coaches — and Bush, who showed up in a golf cart halfway through the session — watched Manziel do everything possible to show that he’s the top quarterback prospect in May’s NFL draft.
Locked in a three-way battle with Louisville’s Teddy Bridgewater and Central Florida’s Blake Bortles, Manziel has faced a slew of questions, mostly because of his size (5-11) and a playground style that may not translate to the pros. But he showed discipline on Thursday, doing his best to prove he can play a less flashy brand of football.
Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel passes the ball during a drill at pro day for NFL football representatives in College Station, Texas, Thursday, March 27, 2014. (AP Photo/Patric Schneider) Patric Schneider/AP Enlarge
Texas A&M quarterback Johnny Manziel passes the ball during a drill at pro day for NFL football representatives in College Station, Texas, Thursday, March 27, 2014. (AP Photo/Patric Schneider) Patric Schneider/AP Enlarge
Manziel took nearly every snap from under center. His throws were accurate and his footwork polished, thanks to several months working with renowned QB guru George Whitfield.
Manziel’s first 42 passes found their mark, although one throw to fellow first-round prospect Mike Evans was completed out of bounds. The ball didn’t even touch the turf until his 48th pass, when his receiver dropped an on-target throw over the middle. He didn’t fire an off-target pass until his 61st throw was just a bit low.
Johnny Football showed off perhaps the biggest arm in the draft. Bridgewater struggled to get deep zip on the ball at his pro day, and Bortles threw the deep ball well a week ago. But Manziel flashed perhaps the best pure arm strength of all the QB prospects, easily laying the ball out 40 yards for his receivers on several occasions. He did it both on the run and after setting his feet.
Manziel’s deep balls were particularly impressive. He ended the session by hitting Evans from about 65 yards out on the money, and throughout the workout, he got excellent touch and air on his long bombs. He showed a good feel for how and when to lay the ball out for his targets, and he didn’t throw any long incompletions.
All eyes on the former Heisman Trophy winner during his workout on the Texas A&M campus. Patric Schneider/AP All eyes on the former Heisman Trophy winner during his workout on the Texas A&M campus.
Overall, the quarterback displayed improved form, and he’s obviously spent the last few months cleaning up collegiate flaws. Many knocked Johnny Football for a tendency to throw off his back foot at A&M, but his motion was far cleaner on Thursday; on nearly every pass, he set, then drove up through his legs and hips. His footwork dropping back from the pocket was also clean, and none of it looked mechanical; Manziel seemed natural on every dropback and bootleg.
It remains to be seen whether this form will hold once Manziel gets into the heat of NFL battle; a few years ago, Tim Tebow’s brain trust seemingly overhauled his delivery, only for the QB to return to his slow-motion throwing habits in the pros. But Manziel certainly has made progress.
He showcased just one major flaw in his throwing motion. Manziel doesn’t have a clean, prototypical overhead release; he often seems to throw from a three-quarters arm slot. That’s fine for most signal-callers, but Manziel’s lack of height could work against him here, leading to deflected passes.
Still, it was an impressive workout, and Nike made sure to cap it by introducing the “Manziel Pro Day Collection” in a tweet as soon as it wrapped up. Before his workout, Manziel claimed he had donned a black jersey and black helmet because that’s football.
“Isn’t the game played with them on?” he told the NFL Network’s Gil Brandt.
But just moments after it was all over, there was Nike announcing the “Pro Day Collection.”
So even if Manziel doesn’t profit from Thursday’s performance, at least somebody will.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/footba...1#ixzz39uinayca
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I don't know who is going to start the season. I can see it going either way. I just hope we play the best guy.
We should not start JM just because he is a number one pick and will be great for marketing purposes.
We should not start Hoyer just because JM is a rookie.
Play the guy who gives you the best chance to win. I think Pettine will do that.
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Quote:
I don't know who is going to start the season. I can see it going either way. I just hope we play the best guy.
We should not start JM just because he is a number one pick and will be great for marketing purposes.
We should not start Hoyer just because JM is a rookie.
Play the guy who gives you the best chance to win. I think Pettine will do that.
Agree 100% ... and I have total confidence (for once) that this is going to happen and the FO will do what is right based on what they see on the field. There won't be any "stars aligning" and there won't be anything handed to anyone.
Looking at JM tape - I was impressed with his ability to play football. I was concerned to the point of not wanting him to be a Brown due to his size, and potential to get hurt unless he can play with more discipline. Then when he was drafted I hoped he would sit for a year - I liked what I saw in Hoyer and maybe it was a short sample but I think he's potentially the best QB since 1999 by a mile. . . . Now with JM apparently is pushing for consideration as a starter ... If it happens i will be behind him 100% and believe that he earnt it.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Good post. It makes sense to me.
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I am a bit skeptical about the "process".
The pressure to start Manziel is tremendous. He is going to start the question is only when?
I am kind of mixed about starting him. On one hand it makes sense to start Hoyer for many reasons. However, the driving factor should be "who gives you the best chance to win".
It also make sense that it would be easier to replace Hoyer with Manziel than vice versa.
The team has to buy into who deserves it. You lose the locker room if they see Hoyer as "the guy" and Manziel is given the job.
At the same time Manziel is going to start sometime. Is it better to find out what he can do right away? Let him learn under fire?
I envy New England. They do things right. They have Brady. They will trade Mallett. Or, let him go to free agency next year. In either case the investment was small. In the meantime they are developing Garoppolo. Who has looked real good.
We continue on this path of Brady Quinn, Colt McCoy, Weeden and now Manziel. Guys who are for the most part forced into action for one reason or another.
It would be a good thing if Hoyer could play all year be productive and win games. Do nothing for the fan base to scream for Manziel. Then next year make Manziel beat out Hoyer and earn it for real.
But really I just don't see it playing out like that.
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We have such a short sample - and little to no *proof* of how Farmer and Pettine will make their decisions. But in regards to making the best decision to give the team the best chance to win .... I have faith they will not cave into perceived pressure to start JM. Personally I don't see any pressure other than making the right decision. That's the ONLY thing that counts. I think the media and fan frenzy isn't going to make a jot of difference to Farmer and Paettine. Most of this is contrived B.S. - a way to fill the offseason dulldrums with "stuff" ...
What can I draw on as a comparison. The draft - Josh Gorddon is announced to have failed a 3rd drug test. Imminent ban for a year. Browns WR core a pretty dismal lot without Gordon .... H-U-G-E pressure and expectations that the Browns M-U-S-T take a WR in the draft. Browns WR's = Poor. Draft WR's = very very deep. A ton of starting caliber talent available. . . we draft a OG, trade up and take a RB, draft a another CB. . . . No WR drafted. Farmer and Pettine did what they believed was right for the team based on their evaluation.
I believe it's simply going to be more of the same with the QB competition, and the CB competition and the ILB competition ... Good for them, good for the Browns.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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This is the first time in a very long time I cannot remember panic already setting in in some quarters about the team. It's kind of weird.
I was talking about the depth chart with my son last night about how Sheard and Taylor are not considered starters yet. I said it's weird.. in the past we were debating a number of positions with "which one of these bozos do we have to start" and now we are talking about "which one of these talented players do we have to sit"... it is really weird.
yebat' Putin
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I want to believe that you are right.
However, I am very suspicious of Haslam. I just find it hard to believe that a thirty year study on quarterbacks yields Johnny Manziel as the quarterback prospect.
A sub six foot guy who ran the ball plenty in college while running a spread offense.
NFL quarterbacks have made their bones from the pocket. Going to line, getting pre-snap reads then throwing the ball accurately to the right guy, at the right place, and at the right time.
Manziel is not that guy.
He was successful in college. He earned what he accomplished in college. There is much debate over whether his skill set will translate to the NFL. He was passed over by teams in need of a quarterback.
The hype surrounding him although media driven is like Tim Tebow squared.
Haslam knows straight out as a business man what Manziel has brought to Cleveland. He very visible at practice. He has proven what money and power can do.
I want to believe that Manziel was the draft pick of Ray Farmer and Pettine. I want to believe they will make the decision on who starts for all the right reasons.
But I am not totally sure that Manziel being a Brown and what happens does not have Haslam signature.
Cleveland seems now to be at the center of the sports world. I sure hope that the attention brings wins and championships. And are not hollow potential and media hype because if it crashes it will come down hard.
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I sort of agree with your take. But at #22 he was fair value I believe.... I am no expert on QB prospects in the NFL, and there are enough "experts" who believe JM is the real deal ... so i will sit and watch and hope (as ever!!). What he lacks for in physical characteristics (he's not 6'4") he more than makes up for in intangibles and desire ... but it will all unfold on Sundays! This year or next.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Quote:
NFL quarterbacks have made their bones from the pocket.
I thought that I read something about Manziel being the most effective QB from the pocket last year?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I highly doubt that. Show a link to that if you have seen it. Look at his college stats. The rushing yards, the rushing TD's, if you watched him play you can not convince me he was a pocket passer in college.
It remains to be seen how Johnny adapts to the NFL game.
I hope he proves me dead wrong and becomes in the NFL what he was in college a play maker who leads his team and wins games.
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Quote:
Quote:
NFL quarterbacks have made their bones from the pocket.
I thought that I read something about Manziel being the most effective QB from the pocket last year?
I think he completed like 73% of his throws in the pocket?
http://subscribers.footballguys.com/apps/article.php?article=bloommanzielrecord
Johnny Manziel has been the most polarizing draft prospect since Cam Newton, and like Cam Newton, flaws in his game are being invented to build an argument against him. The silly thing about this trend is that there are plenty of flaws apparent on film to give an evaluator some pause. Flaws that will lose games for him in the pros. Flaws that will dog him for his entire pro career if he does not improve on them. Here’s a nice long list of less than ideal things about Manziel’s game.
NEGATIVES
Manziel can take unnecessary chances on third and short and doesn’t tighten up his decision-making in the red zone, occasionally resulting in crushing interceptions. He doesn’t always alter his approach for the down/distance or the place he is on the field.
Manziel is an aggressive-minded quarterback, which turns into a bad quality when it compels him to press or force the ball (red zone interceptions come up here). He is the type of quarterback who errs on the side of pulling the trigger.
That inclination to pull the trigger can result in maybe Manziel’s most troubling flaw: he can get stumped and make a terrible decision if he stays in the pocket for too long after he has exhausted his reads. This is a version of a popular knock on Manziel, that he is not comfortable in the pocket. That knock can be true, but only when nothing comes open in his initial progression. The "book" on Manziel at the beginning of his career will likely to be only rush 3 or 4, with an emphasis on keeping Manziel in the pocket and drop everyone else into coverage except for possibly one spy.
Another troubling tendency for Manziel is having a slight hesitation in his decision to throw downfield or anticipate a receiver coming open. Manziel is mostly a quick decision-maker and actor, but you will see hesitation short-circuit a few plays, and even result in an interception or two.
Manziel is a Houdini in the pocket, but he has a habit of retreating as a first instinct and sometimes preferring to escape out of the back of the pocket. This is a classic “works in college, but not in the pros” strategy that will need to be ironed out. It is not incessant - Manziel does escape through the side and front of the pocket and he will step up as a response to pressure - but it is present.
When Manziel does escape initial pressure, he sometimes gets too relaxed when he resets and scans the field outside of the pocket, making it too easy for the undetected defender to sack him. Like most of his flaws, this will only happen once or twice in a game at most, but it is another area where he gives something back to the defense.
Manziel lacks the elite speed of Robert Griffin III or (young) Michael Vick, so a reasonably athletic linebacker can be effective at limiting his gains as a scrambler when they are assigned to spy him.
Speaking of Vick, Manziel takes too many big hits. He runs to contact like a running back and will fight through tackles and try to extend for extra yardage at the end of runs. He will have to have a better sense of self-preservation in the pros.
Manziel’s arm is mostly average. This results in a handful of weak throws in the dirt to the sidelines and balls that die as they are getting to their target. It happens on a small minority of his throws, but it does highlight that he isn’t a quarterback that is going to win with brute arm strength
This is far from an exhaustive list. I hope that it shows that I am not blind to mistakes Manziel makes on the field or the idea that he will have to evolve in the pros to keep these traits from betraying him at times. There are a lot of arguments against Manziel that some will list as negatives in an absolute way. These are myths, and I would like to dispel them.
Myths
Note: Big thanks to Draft Breakdown for all the cut-ups. A must bookmark for anyone interested in watching college players.
Manziel can't make plays as a pocket passer: Manziel does make throws from pocket after multiple reads, including deep balls. He can scan the whole field and find open receivers on the opposite side of the field that he started reading. He can look off safeties to create space for his receivers downfield. Manziel is probably more effective outside of the pocket, but that is because he is elite at creating there. He might even prefer playing outside of the structure of a play, but he demonstrates classic pocket passer abilities on numerous occasions.
Manziel tries to do too much on every play: Manziel can take what the defense gives him. As Matt Waldman pointed out “on the couch”, sometimes that is a running lane that yields easy yardage. Manziel will also hit checkdowns, even after he is flushed from the pocket.
Manziel is a freelancer who does not play within the offensive gameplan: Working with the confines of a play call and offensive scheme is another ability Manziel displays on tape. He can move the offense with short, quick throws, and throws early in progressions, with excellent timing and quickness. He then uses pump fakes, play fakes and body language to manipulate defenses to bite on those quick, short throws and set up longer throws downfield. There also plenty of examples of timing and anticipation throws on tape. Manziel is not strictly a playground quarterback who tries to outlast the defense.
Manziel would prefer to attack the defense as a runner: Manziel is not a run first quarterback. He often steps up in pocket and almost always looks to attack as passer first, including when he is outside of the pocket. Manziel is excellent at keeping the ball in a position that makes it easier to load up a throw when he is outside of the pocket, and he continuously looks for ways to beat the defense through the air.
Mike Evans made Manziel: There is a narrative out there that goes like this, “Mike Evans is bailing out Manziel by catching the prayers he throws up after he runs around for a while.” Here’s the thing: Manziel consistently puts the above the rim in a place where Evans can out-leap/extend above his opponent and win the catch. This happens with such consistency that it is hard for me to believe that it is random. Manziel does almost everything on the field with great intention, including his mistakes. This is evidence of Manziel knowing how to utilize the weapons at his disposal, far from a negative or flaw in his game.
Manziel only wins by running around until he outlasts the defense: It also seems like Manziel’s ability to keep plays alive for ridiculously long durations and make a play that it looks like he shouldn’t have been able to make has skewed his evaluation. While Manziel has done this a handful of times, the vast majority of plays he makes to move the offense are within the structure of the play, or decisive runs/throws outside of the pocket soon after the breaks the pocket. While Manziel can make highlight plays by outlasting the defense in an absurd fashion, it is far from the cornerstone of his game.
Manziel's career will be ruined by durability problems: The durability knock is also a bit of a myth. Yes, Manziel plays a style that will translate to a higher injury likelihood in the pros, but it is important to point out that he did not miss a game in his two years of SEC play. It is fair to point out that he did suffer some nicks and bumps that may have lowered his effectiveness for a few games, such as the LSU game in 2013, but there’s no evidence that Manziel is particularly fragile, or a slow healer, or unable to play through injuries. He also has the body type of a running back. Manziel’s game will suffer if he doesn’t practice better self-preservation on the field, but it doesn’t appear that it will be a fatal flaw.
On Fatal Flaws
Now that we’ve sorted the reality and myths of Manziel’s game let’s address those flaws. The sacrifice of clean health for playmaking ability is something Michael Vick has never improved on. Donovan McNabb would spray the ball at times and waste downs. Tony Romo likes to escape out of the back of the pocket and he is prone to turnover fests (I see the most similarities as a passer and decision-maker between Manziel and Romo). Colin Kaepernick can get stumped in the pocket. Andy Dalton can be a beat late anticipating. “Successful” NFL quarterbacks have flaws. The question is whether they have enough positives to mitigate those flaws. Now we get to the fun part, Manziel’s positives.
What does Manziel bring to the table as an NFL quarterback?
Composure/Poise: Manziel plays with a rare calm - in “the eye of the storm”. Pressure does not limit his options or rush his thinking. He never forecloses options during a play, and if anything his inclination to go for the jugular can be a negative at times - it is much easier to rein in an aggressive-minded quarterback than it is to transplant nerve into a timid quarterback. This mental calm translates in his escapability in the pocket, ability to make throws in a muddy pocket, and ability to create positive outcomes when the play is extended. He never looks overwhelmed, or otherwise like the game is too big, fast, or complex for him to process the field with clarity and act decisively to move the offense.
Elusiveness: When it comes to escapability inside the pocket and elusiveness outside the pocket, Manziel might be the best quarterback I’ve ever evaluated. He has elite raw quicks, but he also has terrific instincts to sense pressure and load up a move to thwart them. The first free rusher almost never tackles Manziel, and they often fail to even get a hand on him. Manziel’s moves to elude pressure sometimes make defenders look like they have a string on their back that someone yanked.
Creativity: Once Manziel is outside of the pocket, he is an artist. He can direct his players to openings directly with hand movements, or indirectly by “throwing them open”. He sees possibilities where other quarterbacks would not. This is another iteration of his aggressive-minded approach.
It’s not just that Manziel sees and tries to make plays outside of the pocket. His ability to use footwork to create a quick setup and release from a suboptimal platform, and deliver an accurate pass is stunning at times. Very little time elapses between “see it” and “throw it” while Manziel is scrambling, and it rarely comes at the expense of accuracy or decision-making. Manziel always keeps his eyes downfield on the move and he has the physical wherewithal to make what he sees a reality.
Influence on Defense: That ability to make throws to all parts of the field on the move is supplemented by enough speed and elusiveness in the open field to chew up big chunks of yards as a runner. Manziel must defended as a passer first outside of the pocket, but he can obviously hurt defenses as a runner. This is crucial because it means Manziel will force defenses to play 11-on-11 football and defend the entire field at all times. He puts defenses at a disadvantage before they even step on the field. SEC teams with high-end pass rush talents would neuter one of their best weapons on defense to try to force Manziel to stay in the pocket by playing contain instead of pinning their ears back. This has often been brought up in the difficulty it creates when evaluating Texas A&M’s pass protectors. Manziel hypnotizes defenses and he is the focus of the defensive game plan. He forces defenses to play on their heels and he dictates the game in the SEC. This is a good indicator of the caliber of player that he is.
Accuracy: Manziel gets dinged for inconsistent mechanics, but when his mechanics are quiet and smooth, he is a hyperaccurate downfield passer. He will display this ability when hitting reads later in his progressions. In addition, he can make accurate downfield throws when he doesn’t have room to step into them, or in general in muddy pockets with bodies around him. Manziel will also use his pocket elusiveness and quickness to instinctively move to space where he can re-establish a throwing platform and scan the field.
Speaking of accuracy, let’s also include that Manziel has been a 68 and 69.9 percent completion rate passer as a freshman and sophomore in the SEC. He is accurate to all parts of the field, and he is accurate both inside and outside of the pocket.
Intangibles: In addition to being a springy, tightly wound athlete, Manziel is also extremely tough, with tremendous stamina at the end of games and a “won’t back down” competitiveness. He is a leader both directly and indirectly - his effort inspires his teammates and gives them faith that he is likely to win the game for them if they keep it close. Manziel is not only willing to put his team on his shoulders, he relishes the opportunity. He’s like a basketball player who wants the ball in his hands for the last shot of the game. He does not shy away from big moments, he rises to them. His calm and his aggressive mindset intersect here.
Closing Argument
I understand Manziel’s flaws causing pause when evaluating him. Just like Tony Romo, who I think is closest to Manziel as a passer and decision-maker, Manziel will have a few turnover fests. He’ll have game-ending turnovers, and he’ll frustrate his fanbase by not being conservative when the game calls for it. Like Vick, he may miss some games due to injury because of his playing style. Like Kaepernick, he’ll have some games early in his career where good defenses can cut some of his favorite strategies off at the pass and force him to re-trench elsewhere in his game with mixed results.
None of these quarterbacks are failures. None were out of the league after five years, or destined to be backups.
Manziel’s calm, aggressive, and quick thinking and acting on the field will translate to the NFL. Last time I watched an NFL game, there were a lot of plays that forced a quarterback to function outside of the structure of a play call. Being able to excel outside of the pocket, or when moved off of a launch point is a big part of winning at quarterback in the NFL. I understand the view that Manziel will have to do more than that, but holding his ability to do that against him in his evaluation, as if it is the ONLY way he wins is just plain false. The reality is that he has already demonstrated elite ability in one of the key areas that sink many quarterbacks who are very good when the play goes exactly as designed. This is a positive, not a negative.
Another factor is working against the prediction of Manziel as a failure. NFL offenses are merging with “college” offenses in their willingness to incorporate more concepts seen at the college level. NFL offensive coordinators today are much more willing to craft offensive gameplans to accentuate the strengths of their quarterback instead of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. In addition, the team that takes Manziel will be one that actually likes his playing style. That increases the likelihood that they will design an offense that naturally fits Manziel’s ability to extend plays and be a threat as a runner. Let’s also remember that he just turned 21 in December and showed marked improvement between his freshman and sophomore years. This is inconvenient if an NFL projection of Manziel includes the assumption that he will not evolve in the pros a la Michael Vick - although Vick was able to turn the tools that made him a dominant college quarterback into a very good NFL career. Vick basically represents Manziel’s floor in the NFL.
The poles in the relative possibilities of what lies ahead of Johnny Manziel are not nearly far apart as the poles in the evaluations of his NFL future. He will either be a tease who dominates at times, but never quite puts it all together and relies too much on his gifts like Vick, or he will continue to grow and fall somewhere on the McNabb-Romo-Favre axis. To predict abject failure ignores the aspects of Manziel’s game beyond improvisation, and how many of the elements of his improvisation will translate. No matter what happens, Manziel will continue to be one of the most talked-about players in the league, and we will all learn more from each other about evaluating the quarterback position and what it takes to win at QB in the NFL… and I look forward to that almost as much as I look forward to watching Manziel play on Sundays. Almost.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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I think he completed like 73% of his throws in the pocket?
That was it. There was an article about that poster here at one point during or after the draft.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Here is is: There is a lot of impressive stuff in here. Top stats to know: Manziel's NFL profile - Stats & Info Blog - ESPN http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/81639/top-stats-to-know-manziels-nfl-profileImproved pocket passing Manziel completed 73 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket this season, best among quarterbacks from BCS automatic-qualifier conferences (AQ conferences) and up four percentage points from last season. He completed at least 65 percent of his passes from inside of the pocket in every game but one this season. Downfield success Manziel completed 48 percent of his passes thrown 25 yards or longer this season, up nine percentage points from last season and in the top 10 among AQ quarterbacks. Manziel had at least one such completion in every game he started this season. In terms of comparisons to recent draft picks, among first-round picks in 2011 and 2012, only Robert Griffin III had a higher completion percentage on passes of 25 yards or longer than Manziel in his final year of college. Griffin’s was a hair better -- 52 percent. Making it count in tough situations Manziel has also excelled at moving the chains with both his arm and his feet. Since the start of last season, he has the highest total QBR on third down, and only Jordan Lynch has rushed for more yards on third down than Manziel. Manziel’s 97.0 Total QBR and 53 percent first-down conversion rate in third-down situations leads the nation.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum More Johnny Manziel discussion . .
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