DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Flow of the O

Ok got sometime, I think this is my first thread in like...ions.

I know I've been preaching about we are over worked regarding our WR corp. My stance has always been you need WRs - never have said they are not important to the team. But we evaluate them as too much importance of the team. Yes, I know you got Dion and a lot of WR and OC/HC on the Analyst telling you how important that STAR WR is and year after year they say teams like Seattle don't stand a chance in heck in winning a SB then they go out there and do just that!

I don't know maybe the influence of Fantasy leagues...and the Media has gotten into it. They all have segments just on Fantasy, Who to play this and that. Heck even Direct TV has a winner in the Red Zone for a lot of these fantasy guys. So not all but most definitely its influenced a lot.

I'm not buying this NEW ERA OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE AIR GAME...got news for you all - He who controlled the Air Game on DEFENSE as much as the OFFENSE since 1950 - were the top echelon teams in the NFL.

What has changed is the frequency that we utilize the pass. This was brought on more through the conception of the West Coast offense (thank you Paul Brown...oh and Walsh...lol ) making passes a high percentage entity that was just as good as a run.

There was a time regarding the frequency of passes that had these philosophies on them...not too long ago 70's most of the 80's.

Throwing the ball had these consequences.
Good: ummm the completion & hopefully YAC
Bad: Holding call, Int, Sack, Incomplete giving you 2nd and 10. So you had to pick your spots.

Also going to spread offense got your QB killed, still does, they will figure it out.

Throwing the ball 40 times or more...90+% of the time meant a LOSS.

Yes in most of the above things have changed except the bad still can happen and QBs will get killed.

But just like in the 50's 60's 70's 80's 90's 2000's and this decade. HE WHO Rules the AIR GAME on O n D will be a team on TOP. Note on O it still doesn't mean frequency or total yards. It means 3rd down completion % it means TDs in the Red Zone. It means Yards per Pass. You rule those parts of the game on O and D you rule the war in the AIR.

Ok now we get to the FLOW of the O. Just what is that. I'm not going to get into too much of the X's and O's - instead will try to focus on the philosophy.

You got a field that is 100 yds long (120) depends on how you look at it. But for the most part it gets relevant when you cross the 50....so for the most part we are looking at Under 50-60 yards.

Well what most of us forget about. The width of the field that is a constant. This width is 53.33 yards wide. The flow is the results you get from an O that is executing.

What these teams that have flow have accomplished is to spread the Defenses 1st and foremost HORIZONTALLY. The talking head always talk about the Vertical stretch but the secret to an awesome Offense really is achieving the HORIZONTAL STRETCH. Think about it. If can force a defense of 11 players. To cover 53+ yards and 40 yards from depth. What you create is pockets of massive space that you design plays to execute and take advantage of that space.

But first YOU GOT TO CREATE THE STRETCH!!!!

Yes you will have Gordon taking advantage of that "SPACE" with incredible skill and deceiving speed. But guess what - my point with WRs are - just about all making it into the NFL Can do incredible things given the Space! The key is not in the WR he doesn't make the space...he gets the Hi-lite reel the fantasy points and the Praise.

The KEY IS IN executing an Offense that CREATES THAT SPACE! That is what I am teaching with all my Preaching that it ain't about the WR n having an elite one. Of course you need WRs. I think NFL teams have gotten infatuated with LARGE WRs and forget about how important it is to have a WR who can concentrate consistently and CATCH THE BALL!!!

How many times do we see the Space being made and you got that slant pass and the big WR drops it. Lost opportunity. All good offenses that have that stretch going on will live on the slant pattern. And now with rule changes on D using hands but also the lack of punishment now for WRs going inside. This will make the smurfs more n more viable. Give me One big Giant talented TE and 5 smurfs with glue hands now a days it should be a field day.

Also again we have never had a team that was able to STRETCH the field HORIZONTALLY...actually we did in 2007. But they road more on the accomplishments of stretching the field Vertical. The key to football Gentlemen and Ladies is creating the prowess of the HORIZONTAL Stretch. Cause
you will see teams stagnate once they reach the Red Zone. Why? Cause they don't have that Horizontal stretch. All this Wahoo about the mobile QBs...the only reason that its making a dent into the game is the HORIZONTAL STRETCH! The Wildcat was successful why? yeah yeah the extra blocker...but really it was the ability to stretch the field horizontal.

This is how interpret the word "FLOW" into my football conversations. Yeah we just had no "FLOW" on the offense, the "FLOW" was missing. What I liked about Hoyer there was "FLOW" when he was out there. What I'm really saying is that we DID or DID not stretch that field horizontal. Stretching it Vertical is like the easy thing to do. Even if you throw the ball over or out of bounds you always here the Expert analysis saying - that was good (I hear Phil Sims when I write this) even though it was incomplete you got the safeties needing to stay back.

Also the 9, the fly, the bomb...is the easiest route for young WRs. Its said its the only route they can execute coming into the NFL...the rest they got to learn. You don't begin to create those big pockets of space until you can stretch that field Horizontally. Stretching it vertically basically what you accomplish is force teams into a Cover two.

Which brings us to our totally inept QB situation over the years. Not only could we not stretch the field Horizontally but we sucked at stretching it Vertically, We just couldn't execute enough with the only exception in 2007, The key to that we had most games with DA not even with one grass stain on him...we face many teams that just couldn't bring on the pressure. That was key. Teams did figure it out. But we didn't have that Horizontal stretch which I'm telling you all here n now is the KEY TO THE RED ZONE!!!

Now what I love about Shanahan's O is that it is predicated on executing the HORIZONTAL STRETCH, its entire running scheme that everyone likes to state how great the run game is with Shanahan - its not the RB (Morris), (all the Denver RBs remember them) its the the Horizontal stretch.

Now Shanhan's run game is called the Outside Zone blocking scheme. Yes Zone blocking will have key double teams but they will be on the outside "STRETCH" with one peeling off for the second level. But these runs have the RB sprinting outside forcing the Inside guy to also sprint outside. Now you are utilizing the 53.33 yards and this creates pockets of Space...9 out of 10 times the RB will cut it inside just outside of the OT original position. Not out of play go here design. But out of the read cause now we created not a sliver of Air (for a hole) but a wide gap as teams over play the outside quickly and can't stop to come back when the RB makes the correct read. The success of this will be so key to our ENTIRE FLOW!

Now I will stop and open this to discussion, questions, opinions. I will be redundant if I keep writing.

But this is why I say what I say about WRs. By all means we need them. But for the flow of our O, Hawkins might be just as important as Gordon will be...maybe more? That is why I'm not in that
Oh no we are doomed mode - just cause the Fantasy Analysts are telling us its a Big Big hole in our game, articles saying how Farmer blew it by not drafting a WR...Farmer gets it. Not these bozo's.

Jmho...have at it.

very nice information EO, too much for a D guy like me so I had to read it twice.

From the other side of the ball.. the talking heads are always talking about losing containment, or defense setting the edge.... when they use those catch phrases in actual terms they are talking about the defense taking away that horizontal stretch.

The secret and challenge on D is to contain the edge but not deplete yur middle that allows you to be gashed inside ... and I think that is where the one step, cut back and hit the hole RB gain such success in Shanahan's system?

Food for thought for me as I prepare for year eleven coaching D

I think that, with the pass interference rules today, that you have to have an effective QB. I think that you can win without Manning or Brady ... which is great news for teams without Peyton Manning or Tom Brady ..... But, you need a competent plus level guy to get to the promised land of professional football.

I am not as freaked out about the WR corps yet as some are, because I know what we have trotted out lately.

Last year we broke camp with what ... 4 WR? (Gordon, Little, Benjamin, and Bess) At least 2 of those guys won't be here this year. What did Little and Bess add to the team? As it turns out, very little.

Little had 41 catches in 99 targets for 465 yards. Despite having the ultimate guy to draw coverage, he never managed to become that guy who can create big plays. He also never became that reliable possession guy. He was, in the end, just a guy.

Bess was a train wreck. He caught 42 passes in 86 targets, for 362 yards. It sounds liek he was better than Little, but he was targeted on a lot of simpler, shorter plays, which were previously his bread and butter.

These 2 guys are gone, and whoever we replace them with almost has to be an upgrade. Little was a ton of wasted physical potential, and Bess was a train wreck. I am sure we can do better.

The 3 1/2 ton elephant in the room is Gordon. If we lose him, we lose a lot. (Duh statement of the year there, huh?) Not only does he bring big plays, but he brings confidence and big plays for the QB as well. Gordon caught 87 passes on 159 targets for 1646 yards. Not all of those yards will be available to other WR, because not all WR will create the game breaking plays that Gordon can.

Our top 3 WR accounted for 170 catches for 2476 yards. I think that we will probably see a situation like Washington had in RG3's rookie season, with 4 WR with between 500-600 yards. In 2010, the Redskins had Morgan, Moss, Garcon and Hankerson all with between 510 and 633 yards. I think that is realistic, given the veterans we have, along with some of the promising young guys.

We have, as veterans, Armstrong, Miles, Burleson, and Hawkins. Are those guys capable of 500-600 yards each? I think so. Obviously there will be health challenges, but I think that there is enough talent there to be successful. It won't be the same way it is with Gordon, where big plays almost seem to come easily, but I think there is competence.

Then add in some young receivers like Benjamin, (probably a return guy for the most part) Charles Johnson, Chandler Jones, and Willie Snead. Are they top end guys? Probably not. Can they be useful in the right situations? I think it's at least a possibility.

Face it, not every team has a Josh Gordon. In fact, no other team has a Josh Gordon. Most aren't even close. The Seahawks leading receiver last season had only 898 yards. It can be done without the big receiver. That huge, big play guy just makes it immensely easier.

One other point if the RB corps. We hopefully should be able to run the ball far better than we did last year. Baker looked good catching the ball last season. Tate is a good receiver out of the backfield, having caught 34 passes as a rookie. Houston never asked him to do a lot of that, but I think that he can help in the passing game. West is reportedly a very good receiver as well. Add in Cameron at TE, and we have some guys who can help in the passing game who don't wear a receiver number.

Further, if all else fails, I think that there will be some veteran receivers become available as camps wear on, and throughout the cuts. I think that the front office will be vigilant in looking everywhere for help.

However, in the end, I do think that this receiver corps is one we can win with, as long as one of the rookies can contribute, and they stay healthy. That last part is the biggest question mark for me. We won't carry only 4 WR this year. I fully expect that number to be 6-7. We might not have Josh Gordon, but we had him last year, and went 4-12. I think that we can use different players in different ways, and have a useful WR corps, even without the star guy.

Damn tabber, I just sat here for half-an-hour making a reply to your post with a link to relevant information and a few, well thought out questions as well as a couple of absolutely, stunningly brilliant comments and statements. I was really on a roll

We've had a lite thunderstorm going overhead but it wasn't much to consider at all. Then, just as it wound down to nothing my electricity went out for no longer than 10 seconds. But that was plenty long enough to not only shut down my computer but also take all the wind out of my sails.

I'll return to this tomorrow after reading your post again. I'll be as pumped as I was 15 minutes ago to restart my reply.

Dang! This topic really interests me.

I notice it has 179 views and only 4 replies.

I think it would have been much more interesting to most and have a lot more replies if you could have put a picture in it of Johnny Manzel riding a pinto horse bareback while drinking a German beer, setting off fireworks and smoking a joint through the hallways of an elementary school.

The amount of interest and number of posts would have been epic!

Hmmmm...............I wanna reply really bad. On the other hand, I don't want to be disrespectful.

There are some truths in his post. He made a lot of great points. On the other hand, there are some things he blew off that are actually important.

I will respond if tab says he won't get offended if I challenge some of his points. Otherwise, it isn't worth it.

I will say this....................I agree w/most of what tab posted. It's good stuff. There are just a few things that I think need explored in more depth.

Personally I don't know enough about STRETCHING horizontal or vertical to
get across the 50 yard line. But I sure enjoy reading most everything that
Eotabb posts.

It all sounds good to me.

For some reason the title of this thread sounds dirty...guess it's just me though..lolol

Ahh but in an off season of so many negatives, and poo flinging, isn't this thread just a rose amongst many thorns? Factual or philosophical it's football the same. Nice work Eo. Thinking caps are on, mission accomplished. Empty vessels need filling, keep em coming dawgs. (Lol I sound like Bard )

Yeah,I'm just burned out on the off-season stuff.I just want to see these guys play some football and see what we've got with the new team.Soo many questions,and anticipation for this season.The WRs,JF,our RBs,the new FO and staff.I feel like I've been constipated for months,and just want to take a dump already...lolol speaking of which I hope our new mascot doesn't do that when they bring him out on the field!!

Go right ahead...as long as you don't get offended if I defend my position.

But I know you are a teacher at heart. What I hated about teachers was Essay's they can rip apart any essay they wanted taking 5 point off here and there when it was theoretically perfect giving you an 80 or something when you thought/knew you aced it....lol

I know I did not go specific as I can make a book call THE FLOW OF THE O...with chapters in it. So there are a lot of holes possibly to attack. My time is limited though so it might be a while till I answer.

Just remember - I live what I preach and see it enfold on the field of play.

Texas...yes in general you wish to funnel all the action to the inside (philosophy) cause that is where most of the defenders are to finish the play.

ddubbia, I could have done a better presentation with pictures. But I'm not that guy with the computer ease. And I don't have a clue on pics on the computer...if someone doesn't share a pic of me I don't have one...lol!

Thanks...I can get more specific but best to do in Q&A this way a discussion can emerge. You'd be surprised how much you actually do know. So don't hold back, you will not damage your reputation. Just remember there are no stupid questions.

jmho

You are right on the money when it comes to the horizontal stretch and it's importance to defeating defense. And too, it's true the stretch runs will attack the defenses ability to run the width of the field especially when you figure in bootleg action once Manziel is playing.

To get the defense to respect the boundaries of the field in the passing game though, does require receivers with the horse power to beat one on one coverage on the outside and, breother, we didn't have that except for Gordon last year and I don't know that we will this year either.

I did some reading about the WCO and its tendency to stretch the field horizontally, and I get the part about flooding a zone with receivers, forcing mismatches, creating confusion with motion, employing slants and crossing patterns (and pick plays), and using the shorter passes to set up your run game. But what seems contradictory and counter-intuitive to me about the WCO is how it stresses horizontal stretching of the defense, but still employs a lot of bootlegs and rollouts by the QB, which I always thought cut the field in half and made the defense's job easier. Most QB's don't have the howitzer to roll out one way and throw back the other - I've seen Elway do it, but not many others. Usually when a QB throws back, its an ill-advised pass. It would make more sense to me to have a QB be active in the pocket, sliding a few yards one way or the other, rather than rolling out one way or the other.

I want too hear it Vers...you were a RB...

Tab, are you talking about stretching primarily with the RB or the quick outside screens that Denver is very successful with?

What would be a series of plays you would call to stretch horizontally? More running or passing? I think stretching with the RB is more effective cause it makes the defense run towards the sidelines. That quick outside screen really wears only the DB and safety out....it's too quick for the entire defense to react too.

Another great post by EO So accurate and I for one so sick of hearing we have no WR Tell me what Seattle has beside part time Percy Harvin. EO I was so worried about YOU. I asked on this where you were and PM You and NO resonse. Glad you are back and keep posting intelligent observations!!!!!!!!!!

This bugs me.

Quote:

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The width of the field that is a constant. This width is 53.33 yards wide.

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Why can't we just use feet?

The end zones are 30 feet x 160 feet each. The playing field is 300 feet by 160 feet. What's the point in saying 53.33 yards? Come on now. They divvy up the field by yards, but that's only because it's easy to divide 300 feet into yards.

jc...

A good tutorial on zone blocking can be viewed on Youtube by typing in "Alex Gibbs zone blocking".

Mike Shanahan and Alex Gibbs have a coaching history that dates back to the mid 80s when both coached for the Broncos. I'm not 100% sure that Kyle utilizes the same zone blocking philosophy Alex Gibbs teaches, but it's more than likely very similar.

...Gibbs did coach with the Texans when Kyle was the OC with the Texans in 2008-2009.

Chris: Hope some girl smacks you...lol The Flow...

Riddler: Thinking Caps on... thank you for that compliment, we got the most football intelligent fans we can make 90% of our post in this genre.

Joe Haus: The one indefensible pass has always been the out...unless you got a QB that floats it. Thats why I an many others here know the out is key in judging arm strength. If you got enough to throw the out satisfactory then you might not have the greatest arm strength but good enough for the NFL to be a winner. Accuracy has always been the key.

A lot of CB play is knowing they got help. Well if we got the stretch and the flow then you play the CB to no end. He is over playing outside burn him with the Slant which I mentioned is a key play when you got the flow. I know this was more of a we NEED that WR...I agree you need on but it doesn't have to be elite. Many can catch that out...the deep out. Heck even Little did. I'm sure Hawkins Miles and Burleson can. But the whole thing is to get it done execute it one way or another. Lets say my talent totally does suck so I got him doing a slant or skinny post and sending the RB on a wheel route...I still stretch the field. There is no I CAN'T...you go with your Hand you are dealt and you make ways. How does NE do it with MO, LARRY & CURLY as their WRs so many years!

Dave: I agree with you on those dang roll outs - always hated them...impromptu roll outs scrambling different story but designed roll outs agree. But the Boot leg should be different than a ROLL OUT...Boot leg is entirely predicated on the Defense over playing the run and its a form of a PLAY ACTION PASS. If you don't establish the run and boot leg, could get your QB killed. Even with marginal running success Colt seemed at his best in a Boot Leg. Hoyer not a JM in mobility but he can do the boot leg and JM well he was born to run Boot Leg. But its a play action pass and should be different than the Ugggh Roll out pass. Now possibly with JM's threat to run a roll out pass could be trouble but I would never do it with frequency cause he'll get killed. Boot Leg, Run run run run boot leg all you want, pick your spot and catch them with their pants down!

Daytna... "What would be a series of plays you would call to stretch horizontally?"

hehehe...I'm old, I got gray beard, I coach OL but I am not conservative. What series of plays would I run/call to stretch horizontally? Google Colt McCoy TD pass to Robert Royal..there was only one so no choices...lol

Well that would be my formation and I've drawn up about 40 plays out of it. Rights now we try to run 8 (16 if you x 2) Starting with the Bubble screen. Awesome out of that formation! Unfortunately our OC is too scared to run something that wild. But you asked I would run the slot (RB) in motion and pitch to him or if I need him to get out I'll throw it too him as a screen. There of course is the fake bubbled hit the TE long (which is what we did with Royal) But man thats my ultimate series formation that I would start out running. And you would break the huddle in I Formation then (we call it the Breakout series) the QB yells break out n we all spread out to our formation. Next play I call in from the sideline. 1 Brown, 1 is the play Color is right side. 1 - 15 1 is the play number is the left side. They in the huddle quick they now the play...break I-formation then - BREAKOUT! spread formation again. If the D stays in Spread formation we don't break out we go quickly and run an ISO 3,4,5,6 holes. from the I....well you asked

Guard dawg.... I think key will be the OTs. Greco has good feet - even Pinkston showed me some new hops when I saw him live against the JETS I think he lost a lot of weight and is in great condition...assuming he continued and didn't go back. Beast Boi should be great. Gilkey on paper maybe but the kid was so raw last year, POTENTIALLY he could be there if he reaches that potential. Technique and natural ability to recognize angles is still the best trait to have - sure you want to add in athleticism and quickness but Good solid footwork and Country strong is more important. Mack will depend on the Tech the D is playing. Also we will be pulling the off side guard a lot. Lot of communication with the OL - why they will be better as the season goes along but again when I say stuff like I can't wait for year 2 with many of the same personnel in a continuity environment.

anarchy...really feet. I never hear the word feet used in football. Its a 52 yard FG why would anyone use the term foot except in communicating how much you need to get for a first down? I don't understand your question unless cause I stated 53.33 yards. When clearly to those with math abilities uts 160 feet even. But 1. I still relate a lot to football. I can eyeball 5-10 yards easily on normal ground. I also happen to love Golf and its all yards until you putt. So me personally - I'm a yard man myself. You got a foot fettish...thats up to you

Texas: btw JM loves throwing across the field...that could be good or bad...

ddubbia: I hear ya, I've had that happened a lot - many times like this (phew you are my last response) but around now I would be going back and then hit the arrow forward to reach the reply box and again then back to read the next post then forward to reply...somewhere after reading a long response I forget and his reply on the poster instead of forward....and POOF all that work gone...lol or a power surge like you experienced. grrrrr is usually how I start my re-post

Thanks for the discussion dawgs

The thing about the Alex Gibbs videos is that you can sit through a one hour video and feel lucky if you come away with a half dozen glimmers of information. In those videos he is talking to other coaches, not the average Joe. There's not much there about basic fundamentals for fans. He is exploring and explaining deeper principles to other coaches while dropping F-bombs every 3 minutes. hahaha.

To be honest, once I started the Part 1 video I could not walk away from it because it is so interesting. So I'm not suggesting anyone pass on it because it might be over one's head. Just that it is deeply detailed even in the first hour. It's like he's teaching a higher form of math to a room full of mathematicians.

Some of what I came away with, which he never actually said but I surmised from his teaching...

• Marty was right, play calling is over-rated. The smallest mis-step by on OL lineman can ruin the overall execution of a play. For instance, by losing the battle with his man who goes on to disrupt the play.

To take that a step further, it only takes one guy to screw up in order to screw up a play. When that happens it doesn't matter what play was called.

Since watching that one Gibbs video, whenever I hear someone complain about play-calling I think of two things: Marty saying play calling is over-rated. And RAC saying, If it worked it was a good play, if it didn't work it wasn't. And by that he didn't mean that if it didn't work it was a bad call, he meant that if it wasn't executed well then it was a bad play. It's really as simple as execution most of the time.

One particular play during the RAC era comes to mind. The "Halfback Pass" that Maurice Carthon called in I forget what game that I believe is responsible for the above RAC quote. The play failed and this board exploded in laughter that he would even have tried to do that. Carthon instantly became a whipping boy for all that is wrong with the Browns offense. Such a stupid play call. That could never work. There was an abundance of jokes about him including child-like drawings supposedly being Carthon's playbook.

As I remember that play, even the moment it happened as well in all the replays, is that had the HB, whom I forget, thrown the ball a half-second sooner it would have been a TD. But it was the play call itself that took all the blame.

Sure, there can be a bad play call. But typically the culprit or hero is in the execution.

• Hearing Gibbs speak on the deeper things it becomes evident that continuity on the OL is of utmost importance because this is a team sport. The OL must operate as one mind. No other unit on the field must operate as one nearly so much as the OL. The more they can operate as one mind, the more they can control the LOS and the game. If you keep swapping guys out, by injury or otherwise, it's a continuous cluster___k.

• In hearing Gibbs explain these concepts it become quite obvious how difficult it must be for a HC to sit in front of a group and answer questions asked by reporters, who are basically football stupid, and dumb-down those answers to something the reporters and fans might understand. I has to be a daunting task and much of the reason it seems sometimes he's not really answering the question at all.

Just one time I'd like to hear a HC answer a stupid question in the same jargon and on as deep a level as he would talk to one of his staff and then watch the dumb-founded silence from the press as they look at him like he is an alien from the planet Omicron Persei 9. hahaha

• To be honest, the rest of it was far over my head. But I agree with mac, it's a good series to watch and sitting through it several times might begin to bring some enlightenment.

Yeah, after Mac mentioned those YouTube videos I went on there and spent about 20 minutes watching the Gibbs #1 video. A lot of very esoteric stuff in there. Very high level stuff that needs time to be understood. When I do get back into it I will start over from the beginning. I did offer a better glimpse of what is involved with line calls. Then how do you account for guys with different abilities to learn and retain the information? Very revealing look at how these schemes get but together.

Just a couple of more things. First, thanks EO this was a great topic.

Now back to Gibbs, his discussion of the FB would lend you to think that Gray will ultimately be the guy we go with to fill that role. If Shanahan shares any conceptual principles with Gibbs then Gray is the player Gibbs described who fulfills those responsibilities in this offense.

Another question that comes to mind in terms of the slant pattern. I can only envision that pattern being viable if the receiver is slanting from backside of the play toward playside. Running the slant route against the pursuit seems like an unacceptable risk for interceptions. Is there something I am not taking into consideration here?

NFL 101: Introducing the Zone-Running Game
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2072415-nfl-101-introducing-the-zone-running-game

NFL 101: Introducing the Read-Option

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2079353-nfl-101-introducing-the-read-option

Good thoughts in this thread. Overall, I don't have much to say, but I am interested in one part of your original post.

Quote:

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By all means we need them. But for the flow of our O, Hawkins might be just as important as Gordon will be...maybe more?

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Over recent months, ever since the possibility of a Gordon suspension, I've noticed various trends in arguments regarding the fate of the 2014 offense. One trend, which I will call the optimistic argument, is that Gordon's suspension won't really have much affect at all, for various reasons, one being the type of offense that will be run this year. The above sentence is the epitome of this type of argument, going as far as to suggest that Hawkins might even be better than Gordon when it comes to stretching the field horizontally.

While I hope this is true, I want to question this speculation which, I believe, is implied in any argument that falls into the optimistic category. I need to know exactly why Hawkins "might" be better than Gordon when it comes to stretching the field horizontally. Yes, Gordon caught a lot of deep balls, and he is known for his vertical game. But I also recall him catching passes within ten yards of the LOS and turning them into big gains. Doesn't this also count as stretching the field horizontally, and can a case be made that Gordon is just as valuable in this respect as in the vertical game? Because, after all, that's what this thread really comes down to--trying to explain why the loss of Gordon won't hurt the offense as much as people think.

To me, it looks more like trying to downplay Gordon's talent and impact, but I am willing to learn from those who know more than I do.

I know that I personally have never suggested that Hawkins would be "better" than Gordon statistically or otherwise. I do think you can make a case for Hawkins being very effective in the short passing game including catches made outside. His game is based on speed and quickness. He has some ability to get a defender leaning and making sharp cuts. He displays a burst once he has the ball. He appears to actually have decent hands, reports indicate he may be, to this point, the most consistent and productive receiver of the preseason.

Mantis...note we are not a better team without Gordon, hope you don't take that away.

gordon will be more apt to give us the Vertical stretch and force two Safeties. Maybe better than anyone but we do have Douglas who seems to be very fast and able to go long as well as many young WRs - why I mentioned rookies all can run the 9. Hawkins, true its very optimistic and still needs validation. But he is more shiftier, quicker than Gordon, Gordon has those long strides and he is physically awesome...why it would be great if he rids his drug need and be on our team. But my point is Hawkins has good experience now and is able to turn the CB with his quick feet and get what we want. Inside and out. Hard to explain...wish I had video.

Mac n others...there is a difference between zone blocking scheme and outside zone blocking scheme.

Layman version of Zone blocking scheme is more predicated for the run to the tackle...out or in. But have a developed Cut back lane to the other side of center. This is achieved by Double team the outside and double team the offside inside. With lateral movement by the OL and on the double one will peel off to the 2n tier the other sealing the Intitial block.

Outside Zone Blocking Scheme is predicated on stretching that outside with speed and get the Defense to over commit the corner so that with the lateral OL movement they pick their spots to seal off and more space is created - the RB has a read and for the most part will pick a space he views and cuts into it. Because of the term Zone Blocking in there I can only Assume that they double the edge or make that space by doubling the 2nd guy as they move laterall and one will peel off to the 2nd tier? I didn't study Shanahans scheme...Screw Gibbs - I would go for a complete lengthy Hi-lite reel of Morris or with Foster when Shanahan was in Texas and see what happens there. Take one OL man and follow. stop put back see again. Once you see exactly bring it back and look at the next OLman what he does...so on n so on. That is usually how I learn things. I don't read or listen to instruction films...I break down the real deal and learn from that.

Well see you all later. When I stated our OC won't do something that wild...I was referring to the guy I coach with not the Browns as in OURS. sorry.

Damn, look who fell outta bed.

Glad to see you posting.

A look at Kyle Shanahan’s Zone Run Game, Part I: Cleveland Browns Film Room
http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2014/07/nfl-analysis-cleveland-browns-kyle-shanahan-zone-blocking/

Thanks pblack.

The thing I thought most interesting in those pics...Skins had Double tight END...and the Giants never had more than 7 in the box even after the ball was snapped. Cowboy pic ended up with 9 in that box.

and it looked like they scored a TD on it...lol

This will be intresting cause the skins OTs were pretty slow either that or the OGs were like sprinters out of the blocks...lol

This will be very interesting.

jmho - cant wait for preseason so I can film it and break it down a bit.