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Anyone see this?
I don't think I can post a link because of language, but it's easily found with a quick search.
Funny, on point, a really great segment all around.
I always thought Oliver would break out, and I'm really glad he's got his own show now. He's doing quite well. It seems he's already had 3 or 4 desk pieces that have garnered buzz.
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Dawg Talker
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Thanks PDR I'll give that a look I heard this statistic a few days ago and went ahead and googled it if anyone wants a quick read. More black men in prison now than slaves in 1850
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Legend
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It's on YouTube in it's entirety. They bleep the profanity but I don't know if I can post it.
Check it out.
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~ Legend
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Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted , shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
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Legend
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The majority of the problem with blacks being imprisoned comes from our own mistakes.
The other part of the problem is the institution itself. It's a statistical fact that blacks are more likely to receive a harsher sentence than whites. I've experience it myself as a teen.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Quote:
The majority of the problem with blacks being imprisoned comes from our own mistakes.
You could replace 'blacks' with people there.
The real problem - which Oliver here attributes to race - is that typically, poor people go to jail and people with means do not.
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Legend
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That's true. Im going to turn 27 next month, and I still don't have the slightest idea on how the justice system truly works. I see all these laws, and the penalties for them, but rarely do I see said penalties done on anybody. I see people being thrown in jail for a long time for smoking weed, yet people get lesser sentences for sex abuse and other similar crimes.
I'm just really confused.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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jc
Any time you have a government that is more focused on welfare benefits than getting people jobs the people are going to be poor because poor people will always vote to keep food in their bellies vs starving.
Any time you can be better off in prison than being poor then people will commit more crimes. While in prison for instance you can receive unlimited medical care that you couldn't get while out of prison. A person in prison needing an organ transplant has a higher priority than a poor person who obeys the law. Why? Because medical care MUST be given to a prisoner rather than someone just too poor to afford it. Got a serious health condition and you want to live but can't afford it? Commit a crime and go to jail. When you get out and still can't find a good job you can just go back on welfare.
The truth that no one wants to stomach is that poor people just need to die. Too many poor people will destroy any society. They will do whatever it takes to survive and they breed like crazy because they have nothing better to do in a welfare state. Which just means even more drain and a growing problem. I'm not saying murder anyone. I'm just saying life sucks sometimes and not everyone is going to succeed. When you fail the consequences are that life sucks more and more till eventually you live or die. Death is nature's way of weeding out those not smart enough or resourceful enough to survive.
If everyone can live in low income housing for pretty much free, can eat for free, can have a little amount of money for free, and soon healthcare will be free for the poor too then why should people want to work? For little niceties you can go work under the table or work a part time job.
I mean its not like we we require any community work in exchange for that aid. We don't even let them be foster parents. I've known lots of older people who would be willing to take in kids and help raise them but are refused because they are poor. I mean it's sooo much better in an orphanage right? lol. God forbid those kids might have to do some chores around the house right?
So why the rant on welfare in a prison discussion? Because welfare is payoff money to keep people from committing crimes to survive. It's blackmail money we are willing to pay to keep the unpleasantness of poor people at arms length. I mean if your hungry are you just gonna starve to death or get desperate enough to take it by any means necessary? OK maybe you can martyr yourself but what if you have kids? If you have kids your 100x more likely to commit a violent crime to feed and protect them.
There are only 3 alternatives.
One) Increase the amount of decent jobs and I don't mean minimum wage jobs which are useless to adults with children. This is the ideal fix and what we all want.
Two) Population control which is something China does. Your limited to one child. Period. Unless your wealthy enough to buy the right to more children and its expensive. Hate China all you want but it's THE most effective way to lower the amount of poor people that society has to support. If you notice the amount of wealthy people in China is skyrocketing because they don't have to spend so much bribing the poor.
Three) Death or Banishment. The least favored but still effective. If you haven't worked in 5 years whether in jail or free you are to be executed. Children or adults in school to be exempt. Volunteer work on a regular basis always makes you exempt. Being disabled exempt. This means your either a contributor to society or your gone. Just imagine if you made every able bodied person on welfare alone do 14 hours a week of community service. That's just 2 hours a day to earn your food and shelter.
Prison is no longer where you wish to be. Immigrating to collect welfare is not as attractive. Being on welfare is not as attractive as having a job.
Now because we don't have so many dead beats on welfare or people in prison we can afford healthcare for everyone. Now all the people useful to society can be healthier and happier. They rest ... well they won't be a problem for long ... and wow our drug problems cleared up fast too.
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Yes, I know no one can stomach being so tough on people. We are generous to a fault and we do our best to help our fellow man. So if we are left with only option 1 then its time we get off our butts and get serious about electing some people who will get us those jobs. Otherwise we are doomed to become a very poor country both morally and financially. Then we will fall just like Rome did.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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That post the scared the crap out of me, that you actually think poor people need to die.
Wow.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Really dude?? This is one of the most ignorant posts I have read in a long time.
Do you really think people are going to jail because they will have it good in there??
Have you ever been to jail? Let alone prison?
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
The majority of the problem with blacks being imprisoned comes from our own mistakes.
You could replace 'blacks' with people there.
The real problem - which Oliver here attributes to race - is that typically, poor people go to jail and people with means do not.
I would be interested in the socioeconomic status of the majority of the white people that are in prison.
And the numbers he give, I do not believe include the millions who are in county jails for up to 6 months at a time. Some of them on a regular basis.
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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J/C
It costs $40,000 to incarcerate an individual for a year. At the same time it costs $8,000 to educate an elementary school student.
And they say the main issue in education is money grabbing unions which protect bad teachers...
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Lol I knew there would be some hating on me but its ok I can take it.
Yes, I know for a fact some people CHOOSE to go to jail because they can get fed and get medical help. Ask a homeless person who has a medical problem the easiest way to get food and medical help. As someone who has done volunteer work and watched it happen over and over again I know its the plain hard truth.
When your choices are starve to death or die from an illness it can get real easy to choose jail. Many of your county jails know who the repeat guys are and so do the police stations. They will often lock them up for a night or two to feed them and then just let them go so long as it was something minor.
Have I ever been in jail? No. I have done mission work in a few of them though and I have done counseling for those that have been released. My rose colored glasses got shattered a long time ago.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Legend
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That was the dumbest thing I've read in awhile.
Also, beyond a shadow of a doubt the most anti-Christian thing I've ever read.
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You obviously haven't read the gospel of Supply Side Jesus.
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Quote:
J/C
It costs $40,000 to incarcerate an individual for a year. At the same time it costs $8,000 to educate an elementary school student.
And they say the main issue in education is money grabbing unions which protect bad teachers...
Yes its a major shame that we will spend 40k a year to keep someone in jail rather than spend 1/4 of that to make sure they could have gone to college. 5 year sentence cost 200,000 or 4 years of college for 30-50k. It just don't make sense. There is a crazy statistic that 80% of people that graduate college do not commit violent crimes. Why? Because people with jobs and hope for the future seldom commit crimes outside of crimes of passion.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Legend
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While I do believe that (and have read the stories of) certain people who get so used to living in prison that they cannot make a life for themselves outside of prison and so they intentionally re-offend ..... I believe those to be few and far between.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
That was the dumbest thing I've read in awhile.
Also, beyond a shadow of a doubt the most anti-Christian thing I've ever read.
So let me ask you this. How many people with jobs paying taxes do you think it takes to support just one family on welfare?
People intelligent enough to have good jobs and that want to send their kids to college have much fewer children on avg. In many cases they only have 1-2 children. So for the most part the people capable of raising kids to work good jobs and pay lots of taxes is staying at about the same or shrinking.
People in lower income brackets that don't view sending their kids to college as their job then to have many more children. On avg 3-4 kids. This means the amount of poor people keep growing much faster than the amount of people needed to support them.
Because fewer people are supporting more and more people people through taxes the government then has to RAISE taxes to compensate. This means oppresive and destructive taxation where people who work can't afford to send kids to college with out getting loans or just not being able to send them at all. So now your losing even more of the people who could support other and instead they are becoming people who need support.
This is simple math. It takes no major brainpower to recognize that it is doomed to fail. This is why socialist and communist countries tend to go bankrupt. This is the road the US is on.
The war that made our country free was over a tax for a few cents. If our founding fathers saw how much the citizens and businesses are taxed today their guns would already be ablaze to murder the tyrants. Between state income tax, federal income tax, sales tax, inheritance tax, property tax, gift tax, and every thing else you are lucky when you keep half the money you earn.
Something has to give. Either we elect people who will bring jobs to our country or you will have to do something with the poor. Just ask the people of Detroit how a welfare state works...
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Legend
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I consider myself a Christian, and a conservative as well. However, we have gone to far down the road we're on right now to just cut off programs. We need to make serious and substantive changes to the welfare system, bringing in life and job training, along with community work in exchange for benefits ..... and other such programs to help transition people who have a lifetime of experience with the welfare system into a life without that crutch.
Radical reforms without some sort of careful transition strategy would be like making an alcoholic smoker, who is also a morphine addict go cold turkey. Can it work? Sure .... it "can" ........ but is it the best way to go? I don't think so. I think that there are better options. It took us a long time to get into this mess,and it will take careful planning and a long term commitment to get out of it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
While I do believe that (and have read the stories of) certain people who get so used to living in prison that they cannot make a life for themselves outside of prison and so they intentionally re-offend ..... I believe those to be few and far between.
20 years ago it was rare and usually just drunks who couldn't help themselves. These days it's happening more and more. It's no one's first choice obviously but do some volunteer work at a homeless shelter for 6 months. That's long enough for the minor offenders to go and come back. It will shock you how much it happens. I've seen so many which is why it offends me that we put our countrymen in that kind of situation.
I am a firm believer that a man who works to provide loves his life a lot more than a man trying to survive and that the best way to make our country better is to put our men to work.
I gave three options for dealing with the poor. Why is it that you only see one... it should have been very obvious when I wrote:
"Yes, I know no one can stomach being so tough on people. We are generous to a fault and we do our best to help our fellow man. So if we are left with only option 1 then its time we get off our butts and get serious about electing some people who will get us those jobs."
I think option 3 was pretty clearly my choice although option 2 has worked very well for China so maybe 2 and 3 are in order.
See I am old fashioned though. I believe if you can't support your own children then you got no business making them. I guess that's just stupid in this day and age though ...
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Quote:
I consider myself a Christian, and a conservative as well. However, we have gone to far down the road we're on right now to just cut off programs. We need to make serious and substantive changes to the welfare system, bringing in life and job training, along with community work in exchange for benefits ..... and other such programs to help transition people who have a lifetime of experience with the welfare system into a life without that crutch.
Radical reforms without some sort of careful transition strategy would be like making an alcoholic smoker, who is also a morphine addict go cold turkey. Can it work? Sure .... it "can" ........ but is it the best way to go? I don't think so. I think that there are better options. It took us a long time to get into this mess,and it will take careful planning and a long term commitment to get out of it.
I agree 100% which is why I said we better get off our butts and elect some people who will bring jobs to the US. Jobs can solve everything =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Quote:
Thanks PDR I'll give that a look
I heard this statistic a few days ago and went ahead and googled it if anyone wants a quick read. More black men in prison now than slaves in 1850
In 1850 there were 3,204,313 slaves of which 90% were black. Some were Asian or Indian.
In 2006(Most recent I could find) there were 7.2 million people in prison out of 300 million citizens. About 2.4% of our entire population is in jail.
So the statement is quite possibly true. It's also quite possible more white people are in jail than there were slaves in 1850 as well but no one cares about that ...
There are also more people in jail per 1000 people in the USA than in any other country in the world. Of course most other countries just execute their violent criminals.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Of course most other countries just execute their violent criminals.
Wrong.
Click here for an even better breakdown.
We're among the harbingers of the free world on this chart!
Last edited by RocketOptimist; 07/28/14 12:39 AM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Thanks PDR I'll give that a look
I heard this statistic a few days ago and went ahead and googled it if anyone wants a quick read. More black men in prison now than slaves in 1850
In 1850 there were 3,204,313 slaves of which 90% were black. Some were Asian or Indian.
In 2006(Most recent I could find) there were 7.2 million people in prison out of 300 million citizens. About 2.4% of our entire population is in jail.
So the statement is quite possibly true. It's also quite possible more white people are in jail than there were slaves in 1850 as well but no one cares about that ...
There are also more people in jail per 1000 people in the USA than in any other country in the world. Of course most other countries just execute their violent criminals.
New info:
As of 2011 there are only 1,598,780 people in prison according to http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p11.pdf which is a more reliable source. That means that book is completely full of crap.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Lol i said the world, not the free world. In south American there is no death penalty because the drug lords don't want their people to die. In Russia you don't need to have the state execute anyone because they have so many flat out die in prison its not needed. Same with Mexico. Lol in Russia they can send you to siberia and just set you free during a blizzard. It's not an execution it death to natural causes lol 
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Quote:
Yes its a major shame that we will spend 40k a year to keep someone in jail rather than spend 1/4 of that to make sure they could have gone to college. 5 year sentence cost 200,000 or 4 years of college for 30-50k. It just don't make sense. There is a crazy statistic that 80% of people that graduate college do not commit violent crimes. Why? Because people with jobs and hope for the future seldom commit crimes outside of crimes of passion.
I agree with you that we should do more to prevent the problems thus reducing the amount we have to spend on punishing them later... but c'mon, you act like these kids in prison get to 18 and think.. "Wow, ok, if I had the money I'd go to college but since I don't I'll sell drugs and hold up liquor stores."
From the day these kids are born a lot of them are destined to not make it out of their circumstances... we could pay teachers $50,000 or $75,000 or $200,000 or we could add 30 teachers to every inner city school, we could reduce class size to 10 kids per teacher, we could build them shiny new buildings with all of the latest technology and a secure perimeter... we could do all of that, and it would cost a fortune... but what would our return on that investment be if these kids still don't have somebody in their lives, at home, to hold them accountable? To stress the importance of it all? To get them excited about having a future in the 9-5 world?
I'm sorry, I'm just a bit pessimistic on how dumping more money into the system is going to fix a cultural problem.
yebat' Putin
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A major part of the struggles in education rest in problems caused by poverty.
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The problem is, and YTown tried to make a case but it just doesn't make any sense in a different thread. Is that the funds going to education isn't exactly going to education.
He tried to say that a certain number of funds are for each kid. That's how the school district breaks it down. The issue? The kids, which is the end result and lowest on totem pole, rarely actually sees those benefits of the budget. Collectively, for example my school, didn't have computers for even half the kids, and we couldn't take books home from school cause their wasn't even enough for half the kids in one class, almost every class there would be about 2-3 kids on one book.
Please tell me how that's suppose to make students successful.
Now, I agree, parents should be just as much responsible, but let's not sit here and act like certain schools or districts don't have a clear advantage over the other. Even statistics show with the SATs that kids who went to well funded schools and have good teachers and such performed better on the SATs and ACTs than kids from poverty area school districts.
And while I believe those test are horrible at predicting how well a kid does in college or not, the fact is that's what colleges go off of, and the school or district is absolutely a factor in how well a kid does on these test. Even scholarships require it, some of them anyway.
So yes, even with FAHSFA, it's still all but impossible for a lot of poverty kids to make it in school. Kids aren't dumb as you think, I'm just talk my own experience that wasn't even 9 years ago. I knew I had to come out of pocket for school. All of it. That was gonna run me no less than 50k after interest. You realize how crazy 50k sounds? Especially to kids who grew up with absolutely NOTHING? Watching heir parents pick which bill was gonna get paid this month and which one wasn't?
The cycle of lifestyle when it comes to poverty is such I'm not sure a lot of you fully understand. It's not easy as just being like "we'll go to school anyway regardless of cost". So,e of you are thinking hat right now reading this, but are the same ones in another thread complaining about there being no jobs. So you want poverty level kids to become PART of the cycle instantly just because it's an option? Then turn around and complain that poor people are poor because it's their fault.
And then razor saying they need to die off.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I was just getting ready to type but then I read this: Quote:
The cycle of lifestyle when it comes to poverty is such I'm not sure a lot of you fully understand. It's not easy as just being like "we'll go to school anyway regardless of cost". So,e of you are thinking hat right now reading this, but are the same ones in another thread complaining about there being no jobs. So you want poverty level kids to become PART of the cycle instantly just because it's an option? Then turn around and complain that poor people are poor because it's their fault.
He's right, folks. The main issue in education solely rests in fixing poverty. The issues of poverty reach across all cultures. Trust me on that.
There are other concerns such as helping teachers improve (not outright firing them...), comprehensive student assessment on all levels (not just a fill in this bubble on a standardized test), and the constant onslaught of corporate America on American public education.
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Quote:
I was just getting ready to type but then I read this:
Quote:
The cycle of lifestyle when it comes to poverty is such I'm not sure a lot of you fully understand. It's not easy as just being like "we'll go to school anyway regardless of cost". So,e of you are thinking hat right now reading this, but are the same ones in another thread complaining about there being no jobs. So you want poverty level kids to become PART of the cycle instantly just because it's an option? Then turn around and complain that poor people are poor because it's their fault.
He's right, folks. The main issue in education solely rests in fixing poverty. The issues of poverty reach across all cultures. Trust me on that.
There are other concerns such as helping teachers improve (not outright firing them...), comprehensive student assessment on all levels (not just a fill in this bubble on a standardized test), and the constant onslaught of corporate America on American public education.
On the flip side the idea of "too much" education can work against itself. Here's what I mean: Swish related that he was looking at $50k to go to college (that was 9 years ago, I think we all would agree that the number is much higher now). At what point did a college level education become mandatory to success? I know the statistics bear out that you'll make more money on average, but what happened to having trade skills? For decades people have been able to make good livings with a skill or trade. Manufacturing may be down, but that has been replaced by IT. If you guys haven't had a chance to look him up, I highly suggest you check out a lot of what Mike Rowe (the Dirty Jobs guy) has been doing lately trying to break down this perpetuated myth that you have to have a college degree to make it.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
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-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Swish, perhaps I didn't articulate my opinion well but I think we are arguing the same points... Let me see if I can clarify. Quote:
Is that the funds going to education isn't exactly going to education.
I agree.
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Collectively, for example my school, didn't have computers for even half the kids, and we couldn't take books home from school cause their wasn't even enough for half the kids in one class, almost every class there would be about 2-3 kids on one book.
My son went to a pretty nice suburban HS and he couldn't bring most of his books home for the same reason.. so while it may be worse in some areas, it's not strictly a poverty area school problem. Part of the problem, as I see it, is that these text books are what... $80? $100 each? How much does it cost to print and distribute a text book? $10? If somebody writes a book because they are so committed to education, why then must everybody make a small fortune to the detriment of the school kids who actually need the book? Another thing, why can't these books be put on a disk or a thumb drive and given to the kids? Even most poorer kids have access to a computer somewhere.. you could put every book you need for the year in HS on one thumb drive for about $6. Worst case, let the kids with computers have the electronic version so the poorer kids without computers can have a text book. I think the no text book problem could be easily solved and actually end up costing less if people would get their heads of their butts and use the technology we have.
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Please tell me how that's suppose to make students successful.
Having a text book isn't going to make you successful either.. let's keep going.
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Now, I agree, parents should be just as much responsible, but let's not sit here and act like certain schools or districts don't have a clear advantage over the other. Even statistics show with the SATs that kids who went to well funded schools and have good teachers and such performed better on the SATs and ACTs than kids from poverty area school districts.
Of course some do, but I don't think it's as money driven as you seem to think it is (as far as school funding)... kids that go to suburban schools or wealthier inner city schools have an advantage.. I wouldn't argue against that. Is it because they have so much more money or is it because these kids are generally taught to care about their education? If you are around kids all day who generally care about their education, who talk about going to college, who talk about having goals in life, then you are more likely to adopt that mentality... if you go to school around kids who view life as a dead end and view the only way out as sports, entertainment, or illegal activity, then you are more likely to adopt that mentality.
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So yes, even with FAHSFA, it's still all but impossible for a lot of poverty kids to make it in school. Kids aren't dumb as you think, I'm just talk my own experience that wasn't even 9 years ago. I knew I had to come out of pocket for school. All of it. That was gonna run me no less than 50k after interest. You realize how crazy 50k sounds? Especially to kids who grew up with absolutely NOTHING? Watching heir parents pick which bill was gonna get paid this month and which one wasn't?
And that's why it's called a cycle of poverty.. you are talking about a very poor family who can't even pay their own bills sending their kid to college for $50K... based on the experiences of most families, you skipped a couple steps. The great grandfathers I know about barely graduated high school, neither of my grandfathers graduated high school, my father paid his own way and graduated from college when he was 26 years old, I was 3 at his graduation... then my brother, sister and myself went to college and we all had some debt but it was manageable.... So what is wrong with the poor families kid becoming a plumber or a mechanic and making $50K a year or more so he can then send HIS kid to college?
This is where I think the argument breaks down... we often talk about this problem in terms of solving it in one generation and that's not how most families solved the problem.. why must we go from severe poverty level to college education in one step? what if their parents and grandparents of the 18 year old kids today had become a plumber or a mechanic or a mailman or a chef or something else that didn't require that college education... we wouldn't be having this conversation... is it harder coming from poverty? Hell yes its harder.. but it starts with individuals who set themselves up to do better than their parents to provide that next level of opportunity for their kids.
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The cycle of lifestyle when it comes to poverty is such I'm not sure a lot of you fully understand. It's not easy as just being like "we'll go to school anyway regardless of cost". So,e of you are thinking hat right now reading this, but are the same ones in another thread complaining about there being no jobs. So you want poverty level kids to become PART of the cycle instantly just because it's an option? Then turn around and complain that poor people are poor because it's their fault.
I don't think either of those things... and you are probably right, there is not a lot about poverty that I don't fully understand because I've never lived in it....
If you want me to break it down for you from my perspective... most poor people are poor because they don't know how NOT to be poor. Those that are 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation kids born to a single mom, relying on the government for some or all of their existence... it's not their fault, but something or somebody needs to show them how not to be poor.. show them how the decisions they make matter, show them that it's possible to get out of those circumstances THE RIGHT WAY. Show them that the odds that they are going to be the next Jordan or LeBron or Beyonce or JayZ is highly unlikely and their best road out is through school. Are they going to get the first class education some others are going to get? No, they are not. If they apply themselves can they get enough education and training to get a decent job and provide for their future family, yes they can.
yebat' Putin
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I actually agree with what you said.
I believe we definitely need to realize that when it comes to the majoriy of people in poverty, we just can't expect them to change a lifestyle. We have to SHOW them. I mean there are already a lot of agencies out there to help, but that's not the issue. The issue is showing those people that there is help, because when you're poor, having fluid information is extremely hard. I think a lot of people don't fully understand that access to information is not as simple as some of us think it is. What seems like easy as hell to just get on the internet and such for most of us, a lot of poor people still can't even afford cell phones or a monthly internet bill in the house/apartment.
I dunno man, I'm just writing off the top of my head. It's just, I lived that lifestyle. Absolutely hated it. But I'm not gonna act like I made a difference in my life because I choose to by myself. I had a lot of help from my parents and others that made sure I succeeded. But I think about all my friends that had only their mom, or only their dad and no actual support, and I'm like, well how are they suppose to make it to a better lifestyle when they are working or selling drugs just to help out with bills?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I dunno man, I'm just writing off the top of my head. It's just, I lived that lifestyle. Absolutely hated it. But I'm not gonna act like I made a difference in my life because I choose to by myself. I had a lot of help from my parents and others that made sure I succeeded. But I think about all my friends that had only their mom, or only their dad and no actual support, and I'm like, well how are they suppose to make it to a better lifestyle when they are working or selling drugs just to help out with bills?
And I never did live that lifestyle.. which is why I love engaging in these conversations.. I'm always open to learn.
You said it, you had support from mom and dad and others. And it seems to me in all of the cases I see and read about, you need both influences or, if you only have one, that person better be incredibly strong... or you better find that motivation somewhere else.
So let me ask you a couple questions...
One, and you and I have already talked about this, you don't plan to go back to that neighborhood (or one like it).. and while I certainly understand that, how are these kids to develop the kind of role models they need if everybody who succeeds, leaves?
and two, how prominent is the "don't be a sell-out" mentality? I know it exists because I've seen it but how much of an influence is it on poor kids, especially black kids, to not give in and go work the 9-5? To not make that incremental progress I talked about earlier? because that is somehow disloyal to where you come from and going to "work for the man" and all of those other bad cliches?
yebat' Putin
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jc
Being poor doesn't mean you are doomed to fail. It does mean you have a rough road ahead of you.
I grew up in the very poorest part of Lorain,OH and Pascagoula, MS. There was no such thing as not getting into fights. In Lorain I had black kids fighting me everywhere I wen't because I was the big white kid. I once had to fight off 10 kids at one time when I was only 12 after they started to kick my 2 year old brother cause he went down the slide and they thought it would be funny to kick a 2 year old. I beat them all up with out a second thought because my mother had me learn martial arts since I was 6. She knew that I would need to be able to protect myself when I got older. She was right.
Then my mother got engaged to an ex con who had murdered his first wife for cheating on him. She decided to move to Mississippi to get him away from his old "friends." He was one of those charming fuggers. Super nice guy till he got a drink or a craving for pot. He was very dangerous with a knife too. He couldn't find work so he took it out by hitting my mother. I took it to him with a baseball bat. I eventually made it clear to him if he ever came back I'd kill him to protect my mother. My mother loved him though because when he was sober he was a charming little devil. One night he called her up when he was drunk to ask for a ride so he didn't have to drive while drunk. While driving him home he got ornery and slapped her to the point she swerved her care into an oncoming truck. He walked away without a scratch while she was crippled for life. To this day if I ever saw him I know where a gator farm is to get rid of him.
My dad is not a bad guy but he is an ex marine who was a sniper/recon in Vietnam. He has his ghosts and he drinks too much to deal with them because that's how the marines teach you to cope. Well they did back then anyways. Pot sure didn't help matters. He worked as a merchant marine on the great lakes and was home maybe 2-3 months of the year. He would spend the first 2 letting off steam. He'd come around once he was too broke to party. Still I loved my father despite the shame he caused. He would write me while he was on the water and send me cash outside of the money he paid to child support. I think half the reason I love football is because of throwing the football around with him. My father had been a star athlete in Clearview Highschool in Lorain. He had many of their track team records well into the 90's. Star of the football team and all that jaz. His love of football is what had me watching it and later playing it. The few times we spent together his words were gospel to me.
When I hit Jr high at Longfellow he came home and told me I was a young man now. I was going to get tempted to do bad things. I might even get away with some of them. Yet he wanted me to know I did not need to fear the police. If he ever caught me stealing or hurting girl he would find me. He would personally take care of me even if it meant killing me. He meant it too. Even to this day as old as he is. You can have whatever fun you wan't and do whatever you want but you don't hurt the women, or children, and you don't steal what isn't yours. To him its a father's responsibility to make his son be an honor to his name. I remember I got into a fight in school with one of my friends because he gave his girlfriend a black eye and was bragging about it. I didn't get punish at home at all. I got an atta boy. Then my father taught me about keeping my cool till I got them off school ground lol. He always said, "You can't stop whats coming son but you can be smarter about how you tackle it."
Anyways my family was . up and I grew up poorer than chit. the only thing that saved me was Pastor Yates and later on pastor Ray Spence Jr. Those two men took my violent street-fighting self and tamed me. They became the fathers I didn't really have. They game me endless patience and kindness. I remember showing up to Sunday school in Grace baptists of Pascagoula. Poor Mrs Debbie was terrified of me. I was 6'2 in 7th grade and I towered over her. Add in the intense eyes I always seem to have and well I was a spooky kid. She became the mother my mom couldn't be. The other men in the church took me to task. Brother George was a police officer and was always running an extra patrol at night to keep an eye on me. He probably got me out of a few tight spots too. I know at least once he kept me from getting shot. Then you had Brother Alvin a firefighter and truck driver. That man spent most of his free time teaching me to fish, hunt, shoot a bow, and what it means to love those around you, family or otherwise. I eventually caved and gave my life to God and at 17 became a licensed minister.
My point is that its not only a parents job to raise the kids and keep them in school. It's the entire community's job. It just takes people to care. You guys want to say its the teacher's job or its the parents job. Well I'm telling you it's YOUR job. If you want your youth to be viable parts of your community then the darn community better get out there and take care of each other. You got no right to complain if your not out there helping fix the problem. Even if you only spent an hour a week being a mentor to somebody it really makes a huge difference.
As for school funding ... all of you thinking money don't matter take your head out of your arse NOW. Schools probably care more and do more for kids than any other government agency. Yet idiots keep wanting to cut their funding over and over again and wonder why the results just get worse and worse. Then need to go to every school with struggling students and just triple their budget. It needs to come from federal too. You ask a poor community to support a school and your going to have a poor school. All schools should be federally funded and each school over funded. There is no single better way to spend tax dollars than on improving our youth.
Give teachers the tools to do their job and watch out baby because they will get those kids excited. Nothing kills a teacher's enthusiasm like bad parents and no funding to do things with kids to keep them motivated. At least when they have funding they have some hope they can find other ways to reach the kids.
Do you even realize how much of their own money teachers put back into their classrooms? It's ridiculous. We should make sure all teachers get a few thousand a year in spending allowance for buying materials for the class. Make teacher's job better and easier. You also need to double their pay. No where else do you expect someone to go to 4-8 years of college and make just 25-35 thousand a year. It's freaking ridiculous. Maybe if you paid them like the professional educators you expect them to be more of the good ones would stick around.
Being cheap on education is the worst repeating tragedy of our generation and its ruining our kids and our country's future. If your only solution is to cut funding then your a complete and total idiot.
Donate your time to be a mentor. Give the schools their desperately needed money. Give your teachers the respect they deserve and help them with your time. If you can't at least do one of these shut up and quit your complaining about our youth because you have no right. Hate me if you want but that's how I feel about it.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I appreciate your story and your passion for education. My only real problem is that the United States already spends more than any other developed country on education, per child. Yet we get a fraction of the results of some of these other countries. Is the money equitable in the way its distributed? No, probably not. I just don't see how tripling every schools budget or doubling teacher pay and giving each teacher thousands a year to spend on supplies is going to have a huge impact.
I think our schools are just like most of our other government agencies, they are full of very well-meaning folks who want to do a good job and make a difference but their hands are tied by a meddlesome government that won't let them do what they want to do the way they want to do it... and honestly, I have no idea what our schools spend all of that money on considering they don't get the return that one should expect.
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Another thing, why can't these books be put on a disk or a thumb drive and given to the kids? Even most poorer kids have access to a computer somewhere.. you could put every book you need for the year in HS on one thumb drive for about $6.
Doesnt work that way with the publishers. I am currently a college student. The days of actual textbooks are almost completely gone. Now the text books are electronic and what they do now is bundle a required electronic lab along with the book so you cant just go buy a cheap book off of Amazon even if you do get a paper copy. So even if you do already have the actual book, you still usually have to buy an access code for $50 to $100
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Quote:
I appreciate your story and your passion for education. My only real problem is that the United States already spends more than any other developed country on education, per child. Yet we get a fraction of the results of some of these other countries. Is the money equitable in the way its distributed? No, probably not. I just don't see how tripling every schools budget or doubling teacher pay and giving each teacher thousands a year to spend on supplies is going to have a huge impact.
I think our schools are just like most of our other government agencies, they are full of very well-meaning folks who want to do a good job and make a difference but their hands are tied by a meddlesome government that won't let them do what they want to do the way they want to do it... and honestly, I have no idea what our schools spend all of that money on considering they don't get the return that one should expect.
Teachers are also paid a lot more in other countries. It's funny because we all say, we need to pay doctors and lawyers a lot of money so the best people will do that job, but don't say the same thing about teachers.
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Quote:
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I dunno man, I'm just writing off the top of my head. It's just, I lived that lifestyle. Absolutely hated it. But I'm not gonna act like I made a difference in my life because I choose to by myself. I had a lot of help from my parents and others that made sure I succeeded. But I think about all my friends that had only their mom, or only their dad and no actual support, and I'm like, well how are they suppose to make it to a better lifestyle when they are working or selling drugs just to help out with bills?
And I never did live that lifestyle.. which is why I love engaging in these conversations.. I'm always open to learn.
You said it, you had support from mom and dad and others. And it seems to me in all of the cases I see and read about, you need both influences or, if you only have one, that person better be incredibly strong... or you better find that motivation somewhere else.
So let me ask you a couple questions...
One, and you and I have already talked about this, you don't plan to go back to that neighborhood (or one like it).. and while I certainly understand that, how are these kids to develop the kind of role models they need if everybody who succeeds, leaves?
and two, how prominent is the "don't be a sell-out" mentality? I know it exists because I've seen it but how much of an influence is it on poor kids, especially black kids, to not give in and go work the 9-5? To not make that incremental progress I talked about earlier? because that is somehow disloyal to where you come from and going to "work for the man" and all of those other bad cliches?
For your first question. I'm goin to be really honest with you, I don't know how they are suppose to develop role models if people like myself leave. When you see rappers or athletes or actors "give back" to the hood, or way they are going to leave the hood, it's because the hood mentality never left. That's why I tell people they need to temper their excitement when it comes to role models in sports or music because they got lucky. Straight up. They put a mix tape out, or a scout saw them, but they never actually had to do much growing up.
So the issue becomes, and I'm just throwing out my opinion, that guys like me get out and stay out. I'm just a normal dude, I don't have some musical talent, or physical talent. So my success is military and now going to school to try in dominate the world.. Or get that office at the top of the skyscraper and act like I took over the world. Well, with that mentality, it's going to be hard to Hang out in a community that doesn't think like that. Which ties into your second question.
The sell out mentality is a huge ass issue. I absolutely hate it when people say it to me. Bro I've been called a sell out, an Uncle Tom, a white boy trapped in a black guys body, you name it. That's why I get furious when some posters think I race bait or something. I speak very proper English. I do dress sometimes I'm typical urban clothes, but I also dress in polo, Abercrombie, American eagle. Never see me I'm "trap" clothes.
I think a lot of people need to read this. The problem stems back all the way to pre civil rights. You got a whole community of seniors telling their kids, who tell their kids, who tells here's to never lose your identity, to never just do what the white man says, and to always question authority. Now, back in those times, that probably was absolutely needed. I won't argue that, but it's gone on way too long. These crazy ass names parents are naming heir kids, I mean, we have all type of problems. The black community is trying to isolate or separated themselves for the rest of America, then turn around and complain that they aren't afforded the same opportunities as whites or whatever.
The same problem In the Hispanic community.
So when you get that black kid who actually tries in school, he gets ridiculed. So guess what he does? He joins the army, or he goes to a college that isn't close to home. He meets new people his age that accepts him, he dates outside the race, and sees that most people in those environments don't even care. He makes so many friends from different backgrounds. He gets the taste of the good life.
So why would he go back to a community that made fun of him and didn't accept him all the time?
I'm going off on a rant again, but it just bugs me bro. The males in our community is so stuck on this "be real be real" crap. To them being real is more important than living the life in the suburbs. They don't even realize until it's all too late that being real is BS when those bills have to get paid. Then it doesn't sound all that bad to put a uniform on(not talking bout army, like working at sprint or a bank or something).
I know a lot of posters won't believe me, but DC, you know top who typically tries to get out get hood the most? Drug dealers, and some of them actually make it out bro. A lot of them start out selling really young because they are helping pay bills, they stack up money, go to school, do what they have to do which is why a lot of those guys, especially athletes or rappers, the first thing they do when they make it big is buy their mom a house in some rich suburban area, nowhere near close to the hood.
THe community can be fixed, but man it's in such a vicious cycle of poverty and messed up priorities, I dunno man. I just don't know.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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Quote:
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I appreciate your story and your passion for education. My only real problem is that the United States already spends more than any other developed country on education, per child. Yet we get a fraction of the results of some of these other countries. Is the money equitable in the way its distributed? No, probably not. I just don't see how tripling every schools budget or doubling teacher pay and giving each teacher thousands a year to spend on supplies is going to have a huge impact.
I think our schools are just like most of our other government agencies, they are full of very well-meaning folks who want to do a good job and make a difference but their hands are tied by a meddlesome government that won't let them do what they want to do the way they want to do it... and honestly, I have no idea what our schools spend all of that money on considering they don't get the return that one should expect.
Teachers are also paid a lot more in other countries. It's funny because we all say, we need to pay doctors and lawyers a lot of money so the best people will do that job, but don't say the same thing about teachers.
There is that and also the respect factor. Americans simply have no respect for teachers at all. They view them as glorified baby sitters who are only teaching because they can't cut it in the real world.
Any any country in Asia where they blow away our scores parents adore and pay homage to their teachers. Kids don't DARE give a teacher a hard time or parents will go ape chit on them.
They also spend a ridiculous amount of money to have them taught outside of school. Kids go to school by 8am. They are done by 2pm. There is no such thing as homework. They then have mandatory martial arts training or sports for 2 hours every day. Then they go to the after school academy to learn English or Science or both for an hour each. About 5pm they have dinner. Then at around 6pm they start with private tutoring or they go back to the after school academy till 8pm. Then they chill out and study till 10pm and its time for bed.
You are sadly mistaken if you think they spend less money on education. They will spend every last dime they make to have their kids get an education. parents will starve themselves to have their kids get extra education. WHY? Because what schools they can attend and what careers they can pursue are directly affected by how well they test. To Confucius countries learning is everything. Also, there is no social security and no retirement. Their only hope for an easier life when they are old is to have successful children. Just imagine if when your 70 and your only hope is that your two children will take care of you. Asian people invest a LOT more into their children on average than American's do.
You also have much fewer single mothers. Their societies don't tolerate loose women. Yes, they have prostitutes and loose women but those women have no future. None. Men caught at it can lose their jobs and be blackballed and lose their careers over it. In South Korea for example if you commit adultery you can go to jail and it has nothing to do with God. China might possibly execute you for it.
Teachers over seas are paid like the professionals they are. They are treated like professionals and students know they can't get away with being bad at school. There is a reason America is falling far behind the rest of the world. It's mainly because the average student all the way up to college students are just flat out lazy and dumb.
I was in a program at an inner city school tutoring failing students in grades 5th through 7th. These kids didn't even know the difference between verbs and adjectives. No clue how to handle fractions. I got shut down because I wanted the kids to actually have to write full paragraphs and that was TOO hard and they cried about it when they got home. I had no white students out of 80 students I had in my classes. Not being racist just reporting the facts.
Number one phrase from black parents where, "Your making my baby work too hard. Its just school and they don't need you to show them they are stupid. They don't need school anyways." Over 30 different pairs of black parents when there was a pair said those similar things.
Number one phrase from Latino and Hispanic parents were, "My kids don't need your help they are just going to work at our family store or our cousin's business like they do now after school."
Number 2 thing they all say,"It's not like my kid will be able to go to college anyways."
Keep in mind these are the parents of failing students who are in danger of failing at school. Not the successful students. I am not saying all African, Hispanic, or Latino parents are like this so don't think that.I have seen many fine parents from all of them.
The point it yes, in America we HAVE to spend more money on education because we have so many kids with horrible parents or at least parents that don't value education until its too late. This puts all burden on the teachers. If anything They should be the highest paid in the world because their job is harder than anyone else's.
Or we can continue our culture of child abandonment and having 1/4 of the entire worlds population of prisoners. It seems to me its a lot cheaper to pay for everyone to go to college then it is to lock them up in prison after their lives have gone to crap because they never had hope for a future anyways. Hell prison time just gives them street cred and helps them fine more crimes they work in. Maybe 1 in 100,000 will get reformed by prison. The rest will come out even more violent than when they went in.
Pay for schools or pay for prisons. The 70 billion a year we spend on prisons sure could pay for a lot of college degrees. We could also lower that by at least 30 billion by executing all prisoners guilty of murder. America sure has its priorities screwed up.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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For what it's worth... I can't remember reading two consecutive posts that I've enjoyed more... here, or pretty much anywhere else.
Very, very nicely done.
.02
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