DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Josh Gordon continued

j/c

So IF Josh Gordon has passed 70 tests and all the other details here are true, then he should get off without a suspension. Unlike Vers, I hope he does. Is that right or wrong? IMHO it's definitely not as wrong as two games for knocking a woman out or a year long ban under these circumstances.

After 70 passed test (which I had NO idea he was being tested that often), I have to think about this whole situation a bit differently. I was thinking how stupid this kid is for 'A' getting caught, 'B' getting caught again and 'C' making no effort to stay away from drugs and risking his football career. If these facts hold water, then he has apparently been jumping through all their hoops and doing what he needs to pass the tests.

I'm not sure I buy into the whole second hand smoke thing, but the NFL allowed testing level for THC seems awfully low to me. This kid seems to be just at the edge of getting it all together, I think he needs to catch a break here.

I agree with everything you just said OldCold .... passing that many consecutive tests (if true) is a testament to his maturation process ... and the circumstances with the two specimens raises some eyebrows.

My guess? 4 game suspension

He possible broke the rules…that's not okay. Look, I'm not saying I think pot is bad…I couldn't care less what people do. In fact, legalize the stuff. I don't care. But, if you know that you will be tested in order to keep your job, why would you smoke it? That's just dumb.

I don't disagree, but I'd still like to see this go his way. No suspension would be great, 2-4 games would be a statement, 4-8 would be severe IMHO and 8 or more completely unjustified with the scenario described in that article. It's not like he just smoked a blunt and tested... it would have been much higher. There has to be room for error in these test and I think that 15ng, to my understanding is a very low threshold for error.

He should be held to the same standards as others and after 70 test, it seems that he is being treated like other stage 3 players. But to fail by 1ng and the backup test to be 1.5ng below the tolerated level? That's a pure judgement call on behalf of the league and in this situation I think it should go toward the favor of the player. I'd argue the same if it was another team's player (but I seriously wouldn't be as interested ) .

The following is my response to a post by Versatile Dog from the previous thread --

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How so? If it is illegal, it is illegal. If you get a DUI, it is not following the rules. If you get multiple speeding tickets, it is illegal and not following the rules.

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My issue is with the way some posters have characterized Gordon over the past few months as being a completely selfish person who is destroying his life because he can't stop using drugs. I'd say passing 70 drug tests pretty much blows that characterization of him out of the water.

I actually don't include you in this group, though, because your characterizations of him are fair as far as I can tell. I just disagree with your conclusions.

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But, if I walk by you 71 times and don't pee on your shoe 70 times, I am still WRONG for doing it that one time

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No doubt you would be wrong. But I also wouldn't come to the conclusion on the 71st passing that you are addicted to peeing on my shoe or that you have a chronic problem.

If the tests were truly different for the 2 samples.then who knows? The whole mess could get thrown out. The NFL could try to make a point about a player having any pot in his system, but I doubt that would fly with the NFLPA. Further, the retest sample is for testing if the 1st test fails and the player asks for a retest. (at least that's how ever drug test I have ever taken part in worked) If the 1st test barely exceeded the minimum violation, and the 2nd was over 1/15th below the minimum limit, then the retest worked to prove his innocence. (again, as far as any drug test I've ever been involved with)

Like when Lebron was reportedly considering coming home, I am getting a better feeling that Gordon will win this appeal as time goes on. Then it will be up to those around him to make sure that he doesn't take that as a sign that he can get away with anything he wants. Hopefully rehab helped him, but the team, and his agents, need to sit him down and explain the facts of life to him.

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Hopefully rehab helped him, but the team, and his agents, need to sit him down and explain the facts of life to him.

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Of course, I don't know this for sure, but I'd bet he's already been having these talks for awhile now. Hope they land on some patch of fertile soil up there between his ears.

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So IF Josh Gordon has passed 70 tests and all the other details here are true, then he should get off without a suspension.

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What is that, a years worth of tests? I'm sorry but neither the law nor the NFL rules work that way.

If Ray Rice doesn't knock his wife out for another year, do we forget that he knocked her out before?

The length of time between infractions should be considered, but it does not entitle you to a do-over..

JC...was just thinking about everything for a moment and here it is...

Anyone think perhaps the reason we waived Greg Little was his influence and maybe introduction of Fats Thomas to Josh Gordon...I know Little and Fats Thomas (who's like a modern Shook Knight in a capacity) had known each other and I'm thinking Little introduced Gordon to Fats Thomas...When Gordon failed his test and the Browns found out he was hanging with the wrong crowd and wanted to know how this all went down...they found that Little was the one who lured Gordon wrong....and I'm sure the Browns had already issued something to the players to help their teammates and not put them in troubled ways...I don't think Greg Little meant it in a harmful way but I know him and Gordon were close friends on the team and would show up to clubs together... I think it was the final straw and the reason him being waived way early took place even with our very mediocre at best WR corps...The Browns know something more

As far as Gordon I hope he learns from all this...and I'm praying his suspension is reduced greatly

JC

His test result was split in to but it does not mean the substances in the urine were evenly divided. If you take both results and avg them out the total amount of substance falls below the 15 nanograms cut off. I was pretty hard on Josh but to me this is proof he needs to be found not guilty. The fact the second test came back under the limit as well should make him innocent. The truth should set him free so to speak.

The rigorous testing he has endured tell me he has been trying his best to keep clean. It's obvious though he has friends who don't care about his career though and he needs to make some hard choices and just leave when they are going to light one up.

I hope Gordon comes out of it with just a light suspension for the bone head speeding he keeps doing. Dude just needs to hire a permanent driver for his driving and a bodyguard to keep pot smokers away from him.

It won't matter if his suspension is reduced(a MIRACLE after getting a DUI this Summer) because Gordon doesn't want to play football. How else can you explain a DUI while waiting for an appeal hearing? He flat out spit in the leagues face. He would have been better off pissing in Goodell's swimming pool. So yeah, lets say they reduce it down to 8 games. While he's off what do you think he'll be doing? Working out diligently and keeping his nose clean? Yeah right. He couldn't do that for the short time he was waiting on his appeal. That was TOO much for him to handle. While he;s off he will be doing something stupid. It may not be weed. It may not be driving drunk again. But it will be something incredibly stupid. BET on it.
I was happy when we drafted the kid. I thought he'd get his act together and be a great player for us. I was wrong. Unfortunately, he would rather party. As I've said many times, I have no problem with guys smoking up. I think the NFL should stop testing for weed. But at the present time they DO. So this idiot has two choices. Party and smoke weed, OR play football. He can't do both. He's decided he wants to party. Every chance he's had to make a choice between party or football he's chosen party. And that's not going to stop just because the fans want it to. He's an exceptional talent on the field. But he has nothing between his ears. He's a meathead. Dead from the neck up. It's amazing to me he can find the stadium.

Every drug testing I have ever had to take had one cup of urine split in half. I had to sign each cup, and they were temped and sealed.

The first cup was tested. In the event that it was a positive, I ad the option of accepting that result, or asking for the B cup to be tested.

I never had a positive test, because I don't use any illegal drugs, but if I had, the B cup would be extremely important. Maybe they somehow mix up the A cup with someone else's ..... but the odds are really small of mixing up both samples.

Further, I would have to imagine that a cup of urine is going to be consistent when poured into 2 different containers. It's not a huge sample. They are testing for drugs at a parts per million level, which would have to be consistent whether the whole sample is tested, or half is ..... or else the union would have major problems with the procedure.

Further, testing would have to be pretty accurate, since you are putting a man's career at risk with a positive test. 16 ppm vs 13.5 ppm (or whatever the 2nd test is supposed to have tested at) with a 2.5 ppm variance is a fairly large range, considering the violation limit is only 15. That could be an error range of 1/6 of the max allowable level. I cannot imagine that this would be acceptable to the NFLPA .... not when determining a man's career and paycheck.

Next year we WILL have to draft a #1 WR even if Gordon's suspension is lightened this year. Because it will be impossible for us to ever trust that he will be there for the team. Lets say Hoyer or Johnny turns out to be the QB we've been waiting for and our new staff get this defense turned around. Lets even go WAY out on a limb and say we look good for a playoff run next season. Gordon is back and all is right with the world. Then right before camp he pisses positive again, or gets a gun charge, or another DUI and we're right back with having no #1 WR. It is not possible to put any faith in the kid. If he is on the sidelines next season for 16 games that's a bonus, but we sure as hell can't PLAN for him to be there.

We have no idea right now what we'll do in next year's draft.

What if we trade for a receiver later in training camp, or into the season? What if one of the receivers we have really steps up .... and we get lucky and either have a veteran be a productive guy, or we wind up with our own Victor Cruz?

You never know what will happen. maybe we wind up still needing a QB. Maybe we need a LB, or a S. Anything can happen. It's way too early to think about next year.

I would want that star WR to be drafted anyways. You put a stud WR on the same field as Josh and Jordon then you got a monster to deal with. Especially with what looks like a possibly awesome running game. Yes, I love the koolaid! Can I have some more with my fried chicken and watermelon?

The source told NEOMG that in addition to Gordon testing negative about 70 times since his rookie year, he's tested positive only once for marijuana in the NFL -- in his rookie year in 2012.

Gordon also tested positive last year, but said it was for codeine contained in his prescribed cough syrup for a sore throat. That second positive drug test -- and subsequent two-game suspension and four game-check penalty -- launched Gordon into Stage III of the NFL's substance-abuse program, where he's tested up to 10 times per month and remains for the remainder of his career.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/07/post_186.html

well now we know how he ended up in stage 3.

To all much more aware of this then I - Oh when I was in the 70s I knew about Pot. At least a little. I did more than Pres. Clinton...lol

My question is this. If 2nd hand smoke can
a. get you high
b. make your clothes reek
c. make you reek of it as its on your skin and hair.

How is it impossible for it to get into your system when it seems to be the most probable cause here. Especially when Gordon has disappointed us by hanging with guys who were caught w/weed while in his presence. What you think he did a - OK but i just won't inhale it???

I'm concerned about a testing program that splits a single urine sample into two sub samples, A and B...and the results of the NFL's testing process of those two samples yields drastically different results.

According to the PFT article, Gordon's "A" sample generated a 16 ng/ml result...1 nanogram over the NFL's limit of 15 nanograms/ml

...the NFL's results of the "B" sample generated a 13.6 ng/ml result...1.4 nanograms/mil under the NFL's limit of 15 ng/ml.

The NFL's test results of "the same" urine sample yielded results with a spread of 2.4 ngs

These players have millions of dollars at stake and they have a right to expect a testing process that is capable of producing consistent and accurate results.

The problem w/taking this report as gospel is that we don't know who the source is. If the source is someone connected to Gordon [his lawyer/agent] than I have a hard time believing it. They can say anything they want and the NFL neither confirms or denies what really happened.

I still wish that he--and the Browns--would have manned-up and taken the punishment. As an educator, I fully understand that society doesn't believe in accountability much anymore, but I think that is a huge mistake and that we are instilling the wrong values in our children.

Are those results "drastically" different? I really don't know. Do you?

I do know that when a person gets pulled over for a DUI that he is tested twice. The results are different. I don't see too many people getting off of a DUI charge because their two results were different. Then again, they don't play in the NFL.

What the heck, let's drop all the player conduct rules. Let them do whatever they want, whenever they want. They score touchdowns. That's all that matters.

It seems possible to me that Gordon hung out with the same friends but drank instead of smoking weed. Back in the day I've known many people who went that route and didn't have millions of dollars on the line.

The interesting thing to me is Gordon passing so many tests. For those not in the know, drug tests are almost exclusively for weed. Nearly every other drug is out of your urine in 24-72 hours. Weed on the other hand lingers for weeks with minor use and months with heavy use. If Gordon was smoking weed it certainly wasn't every day or he found some way to cheat his tests.

It will be really cool to see how all this shakes out. It is really odd to think that perhaps Gordon hasn't smoked weed in two years and is almost certainly not the case. But it is an interesting idea for how demonized he's been after all we know is him smoking a ton of dope in college, failing one as a rookie, and then failing for codeine later on.

I do find people getting so upset about it a bit hilarious. There are good points to be made about a team spirit and good decision making; but I can't help but think of an old man rattling his cane at the youngins and their reefer cigarettes.

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There are good points to be made about a team spirit and good decision making; but I can't help but think of an old man rattling his cane at the youngins and their reefer cigarettes.

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Perhaps that is because you are narrow-minded and want to paint a negative picture on anyone who doesn't agree w/your line of thinking? If this is true, you would then need to assign a label to that particular person and make the argument more about him than about the topic at hand. I can't but think that is a very shallow and cowardly act of someone who isn't very open minded to hearing and considering the viewpoints of other people.

We can play this insulting game all day. It doesn't change the facts.

I don't know if a 15% variance from the same urine sample is considered "drastic" by drug test personel, but I think it calls into question the validity of that whole sample and test.

I don't know if it is drastic either, but it is the second time he has used the word to make a mockery of the NFL's testing procedure. Who knows, maybe mac has experience in drug testing and is an expert in that particular field.

j/c:

Regardless of what is fact or not, second-hand smoke or his own doing, his lawyer and maybe his agent are playing this beautifully. There is a reason that information was leaked to PFT. They want this decision to be influenced by the public because of all the public backlash Goddell has received due to the Rice 2-game ban. Honestly, if the ruling had come down harder on Ray Rice, I'm not sure this would have ever been leaked-- although I'm sure their defense would have remained the same. Because Goddell is being hammered publicly, it really is a great time for Gordon to have his appeal heard. With all that has transpired in the past week, the leverage could be in the Gordon camp to have his suspension reduced, or dare I say removed completely .

....only a few days away.

I know rules are rules but apparently Gordon tested positive by one billionth of a gram. In other words.... by 0.000000001.

I dont really have a lot of faith in drug tests after someone i know failed a drug test because of eating bagels lol, imagine the surprise when a lady that goes to church 3 or 4 times a failed a drug test and she wont touch nyquil because it has alcohol in it. Beware of the sins of a poppy seed bagel lol

The bigger worry for me with Gordon was the DUI with him knowing he had the suspension hanging over his head. I am happy to learn that he did go to rehab after the Dui and I hope he continues to seek treatment.

As for his failed test and 2nd hand smoke, I dont really by that but considering some of the high levels of THC in some of the pot, Iit may be possible. Its not like the stuff in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Its like going from near beer to moonshine.

Anyway if we do get him back how long does anyone think it will be until he is suspended again?

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Anyway if we do get him back how long does anyone think it will be until he is suspended again?

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well he has been getting busted every 7 month or so since he has been in the nfl sooo.......

Why Josh Gordon's chances of avoiding an indefinite suspension have greatly improved

By Tony Grossi | ESPNCleveland.com

The Morning Kickoff …

Game on: The “secondhand smoke” strategy employed by the camp of Browns receiver Josh Gordon in its appeal of a possible NFL drug suspension is the legal equivalent of a “Hail Mary” pass.

But recent events mostly unrelated to the Gordon case have acted like penalties against, in this case, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, and have moved the line of scrimmage closer to the end zone.

What once looked like a foregone conclusion – an indefinite suspension of repeat-offender Gordon, first reported on May 9 by ESPN.com – may not be so cut and dried now.

On Wednesday, Mike Florio of profootballtalk.com reported that Gordon’s one positive drug test for marijuana among at least 70 given him through the NFL substance abuse program was barely above the NFL concentration limit of 15 nanograms per milliliter. How barely? How about by one nanogram – one billionth of a gram!

Standard procedure in NFL drug testing is to divide a urine sample into two bottles and test both. Florio reported that Gordon’s “A” bottle tested at 16 ng/ml and the “B” bottle registered a 13.6, which is below the NFL threshold for a positive test.

Taken together, the average of 14.8 ng/ml would be below the positive test threshold of 15.0. But one of the questionable facets of the seriously flawed NFL substance abuse policy essentially states that the “B” bottle must simply show the existence of the tested substance to confirm the “A” bottle result.

Later on Monday, Adam Schefter reported for ESPN that Gordon’s legal team will argue that the lower reading of the two test results support their argument that Gordon was the victim of breathing in secondhand marijuana smoke and that he should not be suspended at all.

A perfect storm: The precise details contained in both reports suggest, to me, that the Gordon camp headed by agent Drew Rosenhaus and hired-gun lawyer Maurice Suh has elected to take Gordon’s case to the court of public opinion to pressure the under-fire Goodell into showing leniency on Gordon.

The strategy, I believe, is rooted in a perfect storm of events that have made it laughably unjust to give Gordon a minimum one-year ban for barely flunking a test for marijuana – even if the players-approved drug program mandates it.

These are the events that may be working strongly in Gordon’s favor:

1. There is an ongoing tug of war between the NFL and players union on the issue of testing for Human Growth Hormone, an easy-to-mask performance-enhancing drug that some believe is prevalent in the sport. Reportedly, the players would agree to it in exchange for loosening the threshold on marijuana testing – something many think is long overdue. Two states have legalized the use of marijuana and a year ago the World Anti-Doping Agency increased its marijuana threshold from 15 ng/ml to 150 ng/ml.

2. Everyone is waiting to see if Goodell will be as tough on Colts owner Jim Irsay as he has been in disciplining players. Irsay was arrested in March on a misdemeanor charge of driving while intoxicated and four felony counts of possession of prescription pills -- a controlled substance. Goodell’s discipline of Irsay is under the microscope because he has said that owners should be held to a higher standard than players.

3. Goodell has been excoriated inside and outside the NFL for an insanely lenient suspension of two games of Baltimore Ravens running back Ray Rice for a physical altercation with his then-fiancée in February. A video of the incident showed Rice dragging the seemingly unconscious victim, now his wife, from an Atlantic City, NJ, casino hotel elevator. Rice pleaded not guilty to a third-degree charge of aggravated assault. He avoided trial through a pretrial intervention program in May. Public outcry has intensified over the league’s insensitivity to the issue of domestic abuse. Goodell has not commented on Rice’s discipline.

All of which has characterized the league’s uneven system of justice as an abysmal failure in need of a total overhaul.

Ball in the air: Does Gordon deserve a minimum one-year suspension for barely testing positive for marijuana? As a multiple offender and participant in Stage Three of the NFL’s shady substance abuse program, the answer is yes.

(Gordon may also be disciplined in the future for a DUI violation in Raleigh, NC, on July 5.)

Rules are rules and these ones were collectively bargained by the players union and league management. In many cases, the league simply treats multiple offenders of drug violations more harshly than serious criminals.

Gordon’s appeal hearing is scheduled for Friday in New York. Goodell may not even be in attendance; he is expected to be in Canton for Pro Football Hall of Fame Enshrinement Weekend festivities. Even so, Goodell will be the one to rule on Gordon’s appeal and his decision is final, per terms of the substance abuse policy approved by the players.

There are larger issues at stake here for the NFL, such as the waning integrity of a discipline system careening out of control.

In the court of the NFL, which, critics say, places Goodell as judge, jury and executioner, Gordon’s strategy indeed appears to be a last-ditch Hail Mary pass.

But on the field, you would not doubt the chances of the supremely athletic Gordon coming down with such a pass, would you?

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=35361