DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Josh Gordon continued

J/C
Josh Gibbs (Producer of Browns Daily) just tweeted this:

Josh Gordon's car just pulled into the players parking lot here in Berea. The car has tinted windows so it's unclear who was driving it.

Twitter link

Interesting. If he was suspended indefinitely, he would not have any contact with the team, right? Unless the arbitrator is still deciding the case.

His appeal continues today. So it's too early for a decision to have been made already today. Most likely is that he's not required to be in attendance today with his lawyers handling the rest of the appeal.

He could have come in today to work while awaiting a decision which could take another few days.

I know nothing. I'm just guessing.

Or to come clean out his locker.

Too early to know.

j/c

At some time, a discussion should take place regarding the purpose of the rule and the associated penalties. I'll skip straight to the penalties. IMO, the penalties are designed to 'enforce' the cessation/end of bad behaviors. In Josh's case, that is the smoking of pot.

Reportedly, the guy has been tested 70 times since he entered the penalty phase and all tests were negative. One test over that time has a positive that is positive only based on a uniquely low threshold - yet is still positive by the rules. Further review of the ONLY positive test in 70 shows that another test from the same sample suggests a result BELOW the uniquely low threshold. A reasonable person would conclude that the sample should simply be throw out and move on to the 71st test.

I think it's safe to say that over the 70-test period, Josh stopped smoking dope with any degree of regularity. He might still be around it even though he shouldn't...he might have been riding in a car with his pot-smoking buddy hoping for a second-hand smoke high (you know, contact high and all.)...he might even have purposely inhaled the exhaled smoke of his buddy. Who knows?

But 70 clean tests indicates that he is no longer smoking dope with even the slightest degree of regularity. The punishment and testing is working.

The only thing we know for sure is that he isn't smoking dope with any regularity. We can conclude that he sometimes drives too fast...we've seen documented proof of that. He drove home after drinking about half-a-beer too many and got a dui that will be pleaded to reckless op.

That's really all we know about the guy. None of us know him. Many of us can see that with 70 clean tests, he IS working on changing his life. Is he FINISHED changing his life? I hope not. But none of us know that either.

The threat of penalty and the threat of testing is working in Josh's world right now as he is clearly NOT smoking dope like someone with a 'problem'. Taking away his world in some justification of one potentially bad test out of 70 is not why the NFL has such a penalty in the first place.

Him showing up for practice could mean the lawyers worked out some kind of deal... lessor suspension???

Looks like he's practicing today.

Don't think it means anything, though. The appeal continues today so it's probably a "go practice with your team until we make a decision" type scenario.

I wish I felt better about this situation. Just so used to these types of things going against us.

I'll continue to say that I'll be shocked if it's anything less than an indefinite ban.

'Only a teeny-tiny chance NFL will relent on Josh Gordon's suspension and its punitive drug policy -- Bill Livingston'

http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/index.ssf/2014/08/ureasonable_nfl_drug_policy_fe.html

By Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer on August 04, 2014 at 7:45 AM, updated August 04, 2014 at 9:31 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio – If Josh Gordon goes down for the third time, it really might be from second-hand smoke, in light of the "teeny-tiny" amounts of marijuana detected in his drug test.

Butch Davis, who once called a crack in quarterback Kelly Holcomb's leg teeny-tiny, always did have a way with words, most of them self-serving, but the wee little adjectives work for the degree of scientific process that was applied in the Gordon case.

It also works for the level of fairness that was achieved when hanging judge and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell suspended Gordon, pending appeal.

Losing Gordon for a year, if his appeal fails, could fracture a Browns' season that began with hope when, as always seems to be the case, new personnel were in place in the front office. It proceeded to euphoria with the drafting of Johnny Manziel.

But the effect of losing Gordon is too obvious to be a cause for argument. The NFL's testing procedure makes for plenty of debate in and of itself, anyway.

It is hard to exonerate Gordon, given his two previous busts for substance abuse in the NFL and his history of marijuana violations in college. Still, marijuana is not a performance-enhancing drug and 2014 in American culture is not 1968. Many people, however, seem to believe the opposite.

It is only right in the Gordon case to address the disproportionate penalty, a year's suspension for a third offense, no matter how disputed it might be; and the NFL's flawed testing procedure; and its nearly zero-tolerance standards for positive results, compared to other sports.

As has been pointed out before, the amounts are far smaller than teey-tiny in NFL testing for THC, the chemical substance in marijuana – 15 nanograms (billionths of a gram, an itsy-bitsy quantity abbreviated as "ng's") in every milliliter (thousandth of a liter) in a urine sample. In Major League Baseball and the U.S. Armed Forces it takes 50 ng per milliliter and in the Olympics 150 ng. The NFL standard is 30 percent of the first two and 10 percent of what the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) says constitutes guilt.

It gets worse. Each urine sample is divided in two. In the Olympics, a positive A sample leads to a test of the B sample. Gordon was very slightly (16 ng's) over the extremely low A sample limit. Reports say he was slightly under (13.6 ng's) in the B sample.

With the results combined, he is slightly under the limit.

If the B sample had been labeled the A sample, he is also slightly under the limit.

The ludicrous NFL policy, however, only tests the B sample to see if any of the same illegal substance is present. It does not test for the amount.

It is capricious, with sheer chance determining which sample is labeled A and which B. It is also dependent on the lack of logic of making an arbitrarily selected part outweigh the evidence of the whole.

The NFL purports to hold its players to higher standards than other leagues. This is a belated ploy to improve the perception of a sport that is rife with abnormally big and fast players, but that was never subjected to the outcry that came with the trashing of the baseball record book in the steroid era.

The specifics of Gordon's testing make it one of the most controversial drug cases ever.

The urine specimen of former Ohio State and Akron Hoban quarter miler Butch Reynolds, a silver medalist in the Olympics and former world record holder, was wrongly identified twice in a Paris laboratory's paperwork. The world governing body for track and field incredibly overlooked such negligence to convict and suspend him anyway.

The Milwaukee Brewers' Ryan Braun was allowed to smear the custodian of his urine specimen by alleging its deliberate contamination. Cleared of suspension by a clueless arbitrator, Braun, the National League's Most Valuable Player in 2011, later confessed to doping all along and was again suspended.

The reason the NFL can get away with such unforgiving standards and harsh punishment is simply the supine nature of the players union in pro football.

The NFL Players Association is the union that agreed to a financial settlement of former players' grievances about the effects of the concussions, which a federal judge overturned as inadequate.

Just what kind of a union would bargain away a players' livelihood on such specious grounds as that of Gordon's test, anyway?

Yet the NFLPA did not pursue guidelines for personal conduct. This set the stage for Goodell's ruling that made two games' suspension enough for the Ravens' Ray Rice after his videotaped KO of the woman who is now his wife.It also seriously sullied the NFL's image nationwide.

Ohio State's Urban Meyer, often accused of leniency, gave running back Carlos Hyde a three-game ban last year for a nightclub incident, in which the surveillance tape did not clearly show whether Hyde struck the woman with whom he was arguing or not.

If you want to prove what a he-man you are, the NFL is the league for you. Just keep off the grass.



(end)

Bill Livingston, spreading the love.

I'm not sure how I feel about Josh Gordon not being there today.

I'm a homer ..... but I think that he stands a great chance of winning his appeal.

If his legal team proves that a split sample should never have the discrepancy that Gordon's did, then it's game over, and Gordon wins. Any follow up tests don't count, it would be correctly argued, because they would never have been given if not for the incorrect 1st test.

I think that he's got a solid chance of winning his appeal. There is too much out there that paints the NFL in a negative light, and this would look like piling on a guy who would have passed a test if they had picked the other sample bottle ...... right after they let a guy who beat his girlfriend/wife off with just 2 games. What a PR nightmare that would be. I also get the feeling that Suh would make that case in public big time ... and that's something the NFL has to consider, given the horrible PR nightmare they find themselves in currently.

I think it's unlikely that Gordon gets off. Even though the specific terms we are arguing as far as threshold limit, the A and B sample procedure, and length of suspension for repeat offenders are unfavorable for the players, the policy is pretty clear that it was a failed test and it's a one year suspension. Yeah it's really close, and if only the players union would have bargained for an inclusion of something like "The B sample is held to the same standards of testing as the A sample", it would have been a negative test. But they didn't, so here we are. All things considered, I wouldn't be shocked if they threw the test out or compromised on the length of the suspension, but I don't think it's likely either.

That's the way I feel. If he get's off it's because the NFL wants Josh Gordon on the field.

By the books Josh should be gone for the year. By the books Ray Rice should have a two game suspension. The NFL typically follows the books. Sherman got off because they were able to get the failed sample thrown out. Josh can't do that.

Even if you can prove the test has an error factor of 2ng, so his 16ng failed test could really be 14, the NFL can say they took that in account when they made the 15ng threshold.

The NFL likes to play it by the books so it doesn't show they are favoring a team/player. In my opinion he will be gone for the year.

j/c

still think the rehab stint will do more to get him off than anything else. there is a reason his agent and attorney made him go.

I think it would be safe to call me a homer also, but if this were cut and dry that he was being suspended, it would be done already. Something else is up.

I think the argument has to be the flawed testing system. How can any "justice" or punishment come down to the flip of a coin?

If the other sample gets tested first and comes back at 13 ng - under the limit - no-one is even talking about this. That's just flat wrong.

I've also seen print that stated the NFL was looking to increase it's threshold for THC to either 50ng (as per US military) or 150ng (per world athletics body)..... how could the NFL conceivably be staring down the barrel of an inconsistent test result AND a test result that will be half od it's proposed future threshold.

Lunacy.

The players don't want to be tested for HGH so they balked at redoing the Drug Testing which is why they are stuck with 15ng threshold.

j/c...it appears that the NFL drug testing is basically geared to test for Marijuana...What I have read is that their test for PEDs are to find PEDs from the 80's and cannot find any of the newer drugs. The Steelers SB win vs the Cardinals where Harrison took back a pick 6 - There are many rumors of that club that made a dramatic turn around and it coincides with a Doctor known for his HGH specialty (not sure if that is the right drug???) being hired. So there is something just very flawed in the entire so called drug policy??? All show.

All I've seen is prescriptions medicines being detected and the players mostly going oops my Doctor prescribed that to me. And Marijuana. Out of all these players/kids the only drug use/PED is some Marijuana to kill the pain. All those pill Favre popped never showed up?

Its a sorry thing. I got a feeling the NFL is not going to fare well. More than likely Gordon will be banned (rather than go scott free there is no in between) Possibly they can do a 6 game ban..I remember reading something in the rules with that.

But if Indefinite (which means the season) then reinstatement??? I would not be surprised if Lawyers on behalf of Gordon don't take this to an outside court. If his constitutional rights are being violated then there is no contract union or not that is Higher then the Constitutional law. Well it use to be, lol Now a days the law does not apply to politicians.

jmho

I would also think that his lawyers are presenting a solid case on his behalf, because if they were just repeating the same tired arguments about 2nd hand smoke, the case would have been wrapped up by the arbitrator, instead of being carried over to today.

Also, his agents felt good enough to have Gordon return to the practice field today, instead of staying at the hearing. I think that he's going to win this appeal. If I'm wrong, well, it won't be the first time.

Now he may face a suspension over his DUI ...... but immediately going into rehab helps that case as well. That falls under personal conduct, and not substance abuse .... and is regulated by those rules. Gordon has never been in any legal trouble before, beyond speeding tickets, and I doubt that he would get more than 4 games ..... if that.

Quote:

---

Quote:

I'm a homer ..... but I think that he stands a great chance of winning his appeal.

If his legal team proves that a split sample should never have the discrepancy that Gordon's did, then it's game over, and Gordon wins. Any follow up tests don't count, it would be correctly argued, because they would never have been given if not for the incorrect 1st test.

I think that he's got a solid chance of winning his appeal. There is too much out there that paints the NFL in a negative light, and this would look like piling on a guy who would have passed a test if they had picked the other sample bottle ...... right after they let a guy who beat his girlfriend/wife off with just 2 games. What a PR nightmare that would be. I also get the feeling that Suh would make that case in public big time ... and that's something the NFL has to consider, given the horrible PR nightmare they find themselves in currently.

I agree. +1

---

As much of a homer that I am. I would like to agree with both of you. However, if he does win his appeal. Then he has to beat the DUI charges against him too.

Quote:

---

No decision expected today on #Browns Josh Gordon's appeal/suspension. The hearing is taking place now. Josh on by phone from Berea.

---

Twitter

Quote:

---

Josh Gordon's appeal hearing has concluded, per league source. The substance-abuse policy requires a ruling within a "reasonable time."

---

Twitter

Finally - Closure!

Pffft.. The league will say that a decision after the raiders game would be a reasonable time..

I suppose you're right, that should be enough time for Henderson to call Goodell and ask him what verdict he wants.

If Goodell has any honesty at all, that's not going to happen. He said, unequivocally, that he would not be involved in the decision in the Gordon appeal at all. Hopefully that is the case.

I still think that Gordon has a good chance of winning this thing.

JC

From PFT:

Josh Gordon hearing concludes

Posted by Mike Florio on August 4, 2014, 3:14 PM EDT

After 9.5 hours on Friday and another three on Monday, the hearing on Josh Gordon’s appeal of a one-year suspension has concluded.

Under the substance-abuse policy, a ruling must be issued by hearing officer Harold Henderson within a “reasonable time.” The current expectation is that a decision will come in a week or so.

Until a ruling is issued, it’s possible that the two sides will work out an agreement that would impose something less than a year but more than zero games. Without a settlement, the rules contemplate an all-or-nothing decision from Henderson.

Meanwhile, Gordon remains eligible to participate in training camp and preseason games. If he is suspended for a year, the decision becomes immediate and final.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/08/04/josh-gordon-hearing-concludes/

If it was as cut-and-dried as some think, why would it take a week to announce a decision?

If it's a year, it's going to put Gordon behind in training camp going into 2015 at this point.

It's a joke that it's taken this long.