LOL..............you took most of that heat from me, bro.
Look, I hated the Mangini hire. I was one of the loudest guys on the board about what a dumb move it was. tab told me that I would end up liking him, and he was right. The guy won me over.
H and H? I was neutral at first, but I admit to hating them after they fired Mangini and replaced him w/Shurmur.
I was neutral on Banner. I argued for him because most of you were against him.
I am neutral on Farmer and Pettine. Of course, since I am not kneeling down and proclaiming them as my savior, I will be labeled as a hater. But, I'm telling you........I am completely neutral right now, just as I was w/Banner. I said then...and I will say now....let it play out for at least 2 to 3 years and then I will tell you what I think about them.
It just galls me that most posters have to make it all one way or the other. It's either every move is great or every move is stupid. It's either they get it or don't have a clue. I try and judge each move on it's own. Some will be good, some will be bad. Pit, I can't believe how people think that is a bad thing, but just look at these conversations I am having about the WRs. Because I don't think our WRs are good [w/out Gordon] I am posting w/an agenda and I don't like Farmer.
Quote: You know, it's astounding that people do NOT want to hear different opinions. Seriously. Let's all just say this:
Our WRs are great.
The Browns are going to have a top 5 defense.
The offense will be much improved.
We are a team of destiny.
Our running game is going to be amongst the best in the league.
Our FO gets it.
I can't say any of those things because we have no evidence to inducate those things.
But I know how you feel about taking heat for feeling differently than most.
I went through a lot of that last year.
Took heat about what?
I had Chud pegged half way though the season, noted it in my sig, and the board actually had me apologizing...and I actually removed the sig. Not one of my finest hours. Should have stuck to my guns on that one.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
I will give it up to you on that one. You were one of the first ones to question Chud. In fact, I remember you as being the one respectable poster who bashed Chud early on. A lot of guys say stuff, but they are full of crap. You are a pretty good poster and you called it early on.
I remember challenging you about it. Turns out you were right and I was wrong. My apologies.
Quote: You know, it's astounding that people do NOT want to hear different opinions. Seriously. Let's all just say this:
Our WRs are great.
The Browns are going to have a top 5 defense.
The offense will be much improved.
We are a team of destiny.
Our running game is going to be amongst the best in the league.
Our FO gets it.
You should start a poll and see who believes any of the things you stated above.. but anybody who says they think our WR will be adequate, you exaggerate and 3 posts later say they think they are top 10..
Here is my opinion.
Without Gordon, I think our WR corps is servicable, with Gordon it's pretty good.
I think our defense is going to be improved from last year. Will they get to top 10 or top 5? Heck, I don't know. I just think they are going to play with a whole new attitude this year, something that has lacked in years past even when we did have decent talent.
The offense is still largely dependent on the QB and what level of play (and consistency) we get from that spot. I think the offense is still a big giant ????????
I'm not sure what a team of destiny means. I think if we can start fast and build some confidence that we could challenge for a wild card spot into December but I doubt we make the playoffs this year.
Our running game is going to benefit from one of the better OLs we've had in a while. Getting Mack back was huge in maintaining consistency, plus I think he's good. With the new ZBS, and having a rookie at LG (presumably), might take a little while before we really see a big increase in productivity.. I think we have a pretty decent stable of RBs, I hope 2 of them really step up. I think West will struggle in pass protection as a rookie which might make it hard to keep him on the field a lot.
I think our FO does get it, that doesn't mean they won't make mistakes. More importantly, I think our coach gets it, even though he will probably make some too.
I wish I could find an old audio clip of a reporter asking Bobby Knight if his was a team of destiny. It was a profanity laced tirade for the ages. It started off "WTF do you mean by that!" and escalated from there.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
lol I can visualize that...Knight was a trip...I loved him...lol
For me Team of Destiny: Well ever since 2010 we have started to amass actual football players that would STICK and become relevant in the NFL. We never had this commitment for Long term. We have amassed 4 OL from the top 50 of the draft.
We have an amazing DL. We have 3 draft CBs that look like the real deal.
We have We have Sheard, Kruger and Mingo (1 a FA)
I've always stated that the way a team beats the PARITY button is to achieve Good-Great at the RARE positions. 2 Left Tackle 3 Edge Rusher 4 Cover Corner
Leaving #1 QB and as Destiny has it we got ourselves HOYER a Fan who loves this team n we got him at the right time and at the right place. Destiny? The guy who I didn't really like that much Lombardi...was here ONE SEASON for a reason!
Then JM who I really like and was hoping he'd be there at #4 but deep down inside knew the NFL had a bias towards sub 6' QBs even by a 1/4" so that he would drop. That we actually go get him a franchise QB! a legit prospect for it. AT the QB slot we were mired in the past #22. BQ and Weeden were both gotten there??? or was BQ #23? Destiny - 3rd time is the charm!
Pettine wasn't our 1st 2nd choice. But as Destiny has it he falls into our hands and we have just landed that special Super Star of a HC that we will ride on his shoulders for YEARS!!!
To me that is just some of the few things that tell me we are witnessing Destiny for the TEAM we love!
jmho or dream its ok yes I dream of this happening mostly for the young fans!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
In all of the points you mentioned about the current regime, I completely agree. None of them have any history at their current positions. There's nothing to draw conclusions from or base opinions on other that bullet points and statements made by these people.
I really have to see how it plays out before I form an opinion either way. Both of our QB's that are rated as 1st or second string have a total of three games as a Brown. Not enough to draw a conclusion from there as well.
I agree with you in regards to having concerns about our WR's. Yet I realize that any time you have those type of concerns, the eternal optimists will see it as judging and negative. I see it as being practical and logical.
I also have great deal of concern with having Robertson or a rookie lining up at the other ILB spot opposite of Dansby. I believe that's cause for concern as well.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
As with all of these things, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, right?
Banner did some good things. Banner did some not so good things. At the end of the day, you stack up the pros and cons, assign the appropriate weight, and use that to help make a decision.
Two things did not help Banner's cause. The environment turned toxic under his watch. That is an indictment on leadership. And if you believe the reports, he was making it hard to attract quality football people (not the Alec Scheiners of the world) to the Browns.
Was he smart? Sure. Does smart correlate to competence? Not perfectly. Was he a good leader? I don't recall seeing any evidence that he was.
At the end of the day, Haslam, a guy that likely spent the most time with Banner over his time here, decided it was best for his franchise to go in another direction. Haslam had way more evidence than any of us. I applaud Haslam for recognizing the direction he wanted to go and acting quickly.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Quote: As with all of these things, the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, right?
Banner did some good things. Banner did some not so good things. At the end of the day, you stack up the pros and cons, assign the appropriate weight, and use that to help make a decision.
Two things did not help Banner's cause. The environment turned toxic under his watch. That is an indictment on leadership. And if you believe the reports, he was making it hard to attract quality football people (not the Alec Scheiners of the world) to the Browns.
Was he smart? Sure. Does smart correlate to competence? Not perfectly. Was he a good leader? I don't recall seeing any evidence that he was.
At the end of the day, Haslam, a guy that likely spent the most time with Banner over his time here, decided it was best for his franchise to go in another direction. Haslam had way more evidence than any of us. I applaud Haslam for recognizing the direction he wanted to go and acting quickly.
Yep. The things that really hurt Banner were that he ran the process that led to adding Chud as head coach, after failing to land the guys he talked up so highly ....... and then he fired Chud after 1 year. Then, he ran the process to find Chud's replacement, and he and his hand picked GM could not agree on anything at all. There were reports that Banner told Haslam that he could come up with a big name to replace Chud ...... and failed. I do think that Banner and Lombardi not being able to agree on anything going into year 2 really hurt both guys standing with Haslam.
Then, also, Farmer became a super hot property in the NFL .... being talked up by everyone who knew and had worked with him ..... and Haslam began to examine just what he was getting with Banner and Lombardi. I think that Haslam liked the fact that he was able to add a guy like Farmer, was able to see him work, and decided that he was the guy he wanted to go forward with, as opposed to the (reportedly) at odds, and often not even communicating combination of Banner and Lombardi. I also believe that he really does like Mike Pettine, who seems to me to be a no nonsense guy, as Haslam also strikes me. As his rapport with Pettine grew, and as he began to see how other teams wanted Farmer, he made up his mind.
That's how I see it, from what was reported, anyway.
Banner did attract Farmer to the team, so I think that he has to get credit for that add last year. I think that he did some good things as far as trades ..... but his self congratulatory manner turned other teams off, and I think that other teams told Haslam that they didn't appreciate Banner acting like he schooled them on trades. (even on trades where I feel he did just that) There were many anonymous quotes from other GMs saying that they could trade witht he Browns again after Banner was fired.
However, I do think that the biggest thing was that Banner went out of his way to add an extremely unpopular GM in Lombardi, and convinced Haslam that he was the right fit, even though fans of the team hated the hire ...... and once Banner and Lombardi had a breakdown in their relationship, Haslam began to wonder what else Banner had been wrong about.
I agree with you that banner did some good, and some bad. I think that he made a few brilliant trades, that really helped us this year. The Richardson trade was pure grand theft on Banner's part. Improving draft position from a bad draft to better picks in a better draft was excellent work. However, I think that Banner struggled with the human side of things, ad leadership, one on one, was not his strength, by any means.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Banners job 1 was to assure the reasonable success of his head coach that he selected.
He did not do that too well as he traded away draft choices and players that could have helped Chud, and bailed on Chud when Haslam questioned the direction of the team.
It was not a good thing to toss Chud under the bus, and Banner became a team liability that was apparent to other potential coaches.
Hence Banner had to be replaced for the team to move forward.
I am hopeful that Pettine and Farmer will move the team forward and be clearer with their plan and direction of the team with Haslam. But Haslam on the outside with Banners plan and that was Banners mistake.
That's fair speculation and assessment. There really was no in-between with Banner. He structured contracts and made trades extremely well, which has always been a strong suit of his. He also attracted some people with great reputations. He also brought in people with dismal reputations and he lacked a lot of tact and came across as very arrogant.
I'm happy for the good things he did while he was here and won't miss the bad things. I just hope this next group can turn it around.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I liked Banner, I thought he had some good concepts. I didn't like him from the Firings on, I thought he threw Chud n Co. under the bus cause those coaches were all shocked as they were sold a bill of goods via Banner that this was a long term build up and the 2013 season was not the priority to sacrifice the future for. As in our FA participation as in Veterans for now, as in a FB during the season after Hoyer went down. I'm sure Banner believed in the Long term but it seemed that he through the coaching staff under the bus.
But perception can be deceiving. Possibly he defended them to Haslam who clearly stepped in as he too was fired. So who knows. All I know is he is long gone and I'm thrilled with the prospects of Farmer & Pettine running the show for a long long time (continuity). I think Haslam Knee Jerk...might have been part of that destiny I've been claiming. I think he stepped into crapola and will get the accolades...
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
This really has nothing to do with this thread, but I'll chime in here.
For the record, Banner accomplished quite a few things that helped propel the organization forward. However, Banner's keystone mistake was hiring Lombardi. From the second that decision was made, Banner's reign was doomed. At that moment, he unwittingly instituted a culture of infighting, backstabbing, power mongering and ineptitude. A culture that was doomed to failure and would never survive under the ownership of an involved, successful businessman. That culture resulted in the mismanagement of the 2013 season, the mishandling of the roster situation, (while the Richardson trade was a brilliant move, not bringing viable running backs to bolster the offense was equivalent to tanking the season,) the friction between the front office and Norv Turner, and the firing of Chud after year one. This poisonous culture further exasperated Haslam during the head coaching search with the infighting, false promises and continued and amplified power mongering, and further exacerbated an already crumbling structure in the front office and within the locker room. At this point there was no choice but to fire Banner and Lombardi, as Lombardi was poisonous to the organization as a whole, and Banner was the de facto architect of his own demise.
To bring it full circle, fortunately (we hope) all this led to the hiring of Pettine and ultimately the Culture Of Toughness that has replaced the Culture Of Poison.
JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
We all wish we knew what was going on from the inside and I believe we'll get our wish once we've won a Super Bowl.
We're one of the few remaining teams to have not won a Super Bowl. In addition, The Move was a paramount crisis for the team. To get the team back along with it's name, colors and history, through the power of the fans and the city of Cleveland, was unprecedented in the history of the NFL. Then, to have suffered so many losing seasons, hired/fired so many coaches and regimes to have had so many bad drafts and to have become the epitome of failure is a story that has to be and will be told.
But it will take winning a Super Bowl for the story to come out in all it's detail. It would be almost a Cinderella story. Winning a Super Bowl after years and years of futile seasons will demand the whole story be told. Someone, maybe Pluto, maybe someone else, will write a book containing all the gory details that took us from rags to riches.
So I believe that the stories will all come out eventually.
Here's hoping the browns get it done soon, so he can get to work.
Some years ago, I mentioned what a GREAT story this will be when the Lombar- er, Paul Brown trophy resides in Cleveland. When NFL films does their documentary on us, the only thing missing will be John Facenda's voice doing the voice-over.
Quote: This really has nothing to do with this thread, but I'll chime in here.
For the record, Banner accomplished quite a few things that helped propel the organization forward. However, Banner's keystone mistake was hiring Lombardi. From the second that decision was made, Banner's reign was doomed. At that moment, he unwittingly instituted a culture of infighting, backstabbing, power mongering and ineptitude. A culture that was doomed to failure and would never survive under the ownership of an involved, successful businessman. That culture resulted in the mismanagement of the 2013 season, the mishandling of the roster situation, (while the Richardson trade was a brilliant move, not bringing viable running backs to bolster the offense was equivalent to tanking the season,) the friction between the front office and Norv Turner, and the firing of Chud after year one. This poisonous culture further exasperated Haslam during the head coaching search with the infighting, false promises and continued and amplified power mongering, and further exacerbated an already crumbling structure in the front office and within the locker room. At this point there was no choice but to fire Banner and Lombardi, as Lombardi was poisonous to the organization as a whole, and Banner was the de facto architect of his own demise.
To bring it full circle, fortunately (we hope) all this led to the hiring of Pettine and ultimately the Culture Of Toughness that has replaced the Culture Of Poison.
JMHO
Great Post!!! You hit the nail on the head. Banner could have and would have been great for this organization until he fired Heckert and hired Lombardi.
I will give Lombardi credit for bringing this team Brian Hoyer but besides that he hurt way more than he helped. He was a terrible GM for Cleveland in the late 80's and early 90's and was even worse last year. I am just glad Haslam corrected that mistake quickly so the team can again start moving forward.
Quote: This really has nothing to do with this thread, but I'll chime in here.
For the record, Banner accomplished quite a few things that helped propel the organization forward. However, Banner's keystone mistake was hiring Lombardi. From the second that decision was made, Banner's reign was doomed. At that moment, he unwittingly instituted a culture of infighting, backstabbing, power mongering and ineptitude. A culture that was doomed to failure and would never survive under the ownership of an involved, successful businessman. That culture resulted in the mismanagement of the 2013 season, the mishandling of the roster situation, (while the Richardson trade was a brilliant move, not bringing viable running backs to bolster the offense was equivalent to tanking the season,) the friction between the front office and Norv Turner, and the firing of Chud after year one. This poisonous culture further exasperated Haslam during the head coaching search with the infighting, false promises and continued and amplified power mongering, and further exacerbated an already crumbling structure in the front office and within the locker room. At this point there was no choice but to fire Banner and Lombardi, as Lombardi was poisonous to the organization as a whole, and Banner was the de facto architect of his own demise.
To bring it full circle, fortunately (we hope) all this led to the hiring of Pettine and ultimately the Culture Of Toughness that has replaced the Culture Of Poison.
JMHO
Well put.
Banner seemed to lack impulse control.
But as far as shrewd decisions go, he ranks near the top in terms of guys in charge since 1999.
Quote: This really has nothing to do with this thread, but I'll chime in here.
For the record, Banner accomplished quite a few things that helped propel the organization forward. However, Banner's keystone mistake was hiring Lombardi. From the second that decision was made, Banner's reign was doomed. At that moment, he unwittingly instituted a culture of infighting, backstabbing, power mongering and ineptitude. A culture that was doomed to failure and would never survive under the ownership of an involved, successful businessman. That culture resulted in the mismanagement of the 2013 season, the mishandling of the roster situation, (while the Richardson trade was a brilliant move, not bringing viable running backs to bolster the offense was equivalent to tanking the season,) the friction between the front office and Norv Turner, and the firing of Chud after year one. This poisonous culture further exasperated Haslam during the head coaching search with the infighting, false promises and continued and amplified power mongering, and further exacerbated an already crumbling structure in the front office and within the locker room. At this point there was no choice but to fire Banner and Lombardi, as Lombardi was poisonous to the organization as a whole, and Banner was the de facto architect of his own demise.
To bring it full circle, fortunately (we hope) all this led to the hiring of Pettine and ultimately the Culture Of Toughness that has replaced the Culture Of Poison.
JMHO
Great Post!!! You hit the nail on the head. Banner could have and would have been great for this organization until he fired Heckert and hired Lombardi.
I will give Lombardi credit for bringing this team Brian Hoyer but besides that he hurt way more than he helped. He was a terrible GM for Cleveland in the late 80's and early 90's and was even worse last year. I am just glad Haslam corrected that mistake quickly so the team can again start moving forward.
I would generally agree with both comments but would add another layer to this and this is just my opinion (sad I have to generally preempt my comments with that). Banner hired Lombardi to be a "yes man" for him to do the dirty work, compile all the info, and Banner would make decisions based on said information. Let's not forget, Lombardi was originally hired as the VP of Player Personnel, not GM. However, Lombardi had other things in mind....he wanted to be THE personnel guy and to call the shots. Both guys wanted to be the personnel guru and that's where the friction started, and quite frankly, I think thats where Farmer found his leverage to make a move and swoop in.
Banner's biggest mistake was wanting to be the guy who did everything, not just the business side but the football side as well. From a business side, I think he did some pretty good stuff, but I don't think that was enough for him or what he envisioned when he convinced Haslem to give him the CEO title. It was because of those aspirations he was pushed out of Philly....and ultimately why he was pushed out of Cleveland in under a year's time.
Lombardi was far worse than Banner IMO but it was JB who made the hire and, coupled with the coaching issues, public perception, three stooges issue, hiring problems, and losing more games than the previous regime w/ the same starting roster minus 2 player and $40M extra in guaranteed contracts led to his demise in less than one year.
I'm glad they're both gone but the new regime needs to prove they are better than them. The jury is still out.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Almost every one of you guys are using speculation and your own opinions to paint the bad picture. Words and phrases like poison, backstabber, infighting, no being able to attract quality people, players being hurt by what was going on in the FO, powermongering, and ineptitude.
No proof whatsoever of any of that garbage. And players could care less about the FO until contract time. They don't care if the GM is arguing w/the HC. Sheesh. Such drama and conspiracy.
I'm going to let it go now, but man..........quit making stuff up. There is no proof. Wild speculation that had its genesis from people who did not like him.
Well Norv is on record saying Banner flat our refused to bring in players the coaches wanted in order to win quickly instead of just have a lame duck year.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
Quote: j/c: And I am the one who can't let it go, huh?
Almost every one of you guys are using speculation and your own opinions to paint the bad picture. Words and phrases like poison, backstabber, infighting, no being able to attract quality people, players being hurt by what was going on in the FO, powermongering, and ineptitude.
No proof whatsoever of any of that garbage. And players could care less about the FO until contract time. They don't care if the GM is arguing w/the HC. Sheesh. Such drama and conspiracy.
I'm going to let it go now, but man..........quit making stuff up. There is no proof. Wild speculation that had its genesis from people who did not like him.
So let us in on the secret. Why did he get let go?
And don't speculate. Provide proof.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Quote: He didn't say he knows what happened, he said there's not credible evidence to what is being claimed.
Don't try to earn back love after those archive links!
By the way, there's plenty of credible evidence. I haven't seen more dysfunctional reports locally and nationally in one year for the Browns EVER. Credible evidence? Use your head.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Quote: I liked Banner, I thought he had some good concepts.
Banner as a been counter and cap guru....... excellent. Banner as a guy in charge of a team who had NO CLUE how much team attitude, friendship, and Comradery means to a NFL team failed in a major way. He had a great eye for talent and he knew how to build a team talent wise, but he had no clue how to build a close cohesive unit that would prosper on the field. I have to give him props for bringing in a lot of the talent that he did
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
He had a great eye for talent and he knew how to build a team talent wise, but he had no clue how to build a close cohesive unit that would prosper on the field. I have to give him props for bringing in a lot of the talent that he did