DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Even More Johnny Manziel discussion . . .

I the Buffalo game he only completed 3 passes on the long drive and each one was, first read and throw. If that's all he's going to do then they may HAVE to go to a read option. Which is literally, make your first read and if it's not there, run...

The media hates this guy and they were just waiting for this, so they could rip him a part. Let's see how he rebounds. He will probably make more mistakes, but it doesn't mean it's the end of him. Like Lou Brown said, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx5DjRGyKnw

That's all Hoyer did too? Except his was, first read then get sacked.

Only thing I can come up with is this video. Skip to about the 1:08 mark.

To my admittedly untrained eye.....at the snap, the entire line fires off to the right. Manziel fakes to no one - to the left. Running back - West, is going to the right, the full back, who was lined up on the right side of Manziel, heads back to the left for a block (which he missed terribly) on the backside d.e. or linebacker.

Again, to my untrained eye, I don't even think this was supposed to be a read play? You can see West - again, heading to the right, John faking to no one on the left, then West kind of stops and tries to come back to John.

Wish I had more.

You watch it and break it down.

And this is only 1 play that I could find. I'm not saying there were 10 plays like this.....

Anyway, someone with more knowledge of the read option, fill me in.


Oops. Edited to add the actual video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZVqMrITvyM

NFL Analyst and NFL Films Senior Producer Greg Cosell analyzes Manziel's first start:

Link

We learned a lot about Cleveland Browns rookie quarterback Johnny Manziel in his first NFL start. And we saw how much he has to work on.

Manziel showed some physical limitations and fundamental flaws against the Cincinnati Bengals. One thing that was immediately evident (and could be seen on detailed film study) is that Manziel has an average arm by NFL standards. Manziel needs functional space and a clean pocket to step up into throws and drive the ball. He works hard to put any velocity on his throws.

The problem is Manziel didn’t want to stay in the pocket. He lacks any feel for the pocket, has almost no pocket patience and discipline and is very quick to move and play what I call “random football” outside of the structure of the offense.

The Bengals used a “mush rush” concept a number of times with an inside rusher staying at the line of scrimmage to prevent Manziel from escaping vertically and making plays running the ball. And Manziel produced very little in the passing game.

Both of his interceptions were prime examples of his issues at this point.

His first interception came in the second quarter. The Browns had a post/cross route combination against the Bengals’ “Cover 3” zone. Josh Gordon’s post route lifted the front-side cornerback and the single-high safety, allowing Andrew Hawkins to be wide open on the crossing route. Manziel looked for a split second to his right, losing his downfield focus (Manziel didn't see things clearly; you could tell by his head, he didn’t have what you'd call a "calm helmet") and then drifted to his left. He threw the ball with no base or balance and the ball came out with nothing on it. It had poor location behind Hawkins too. Bengals cornerback Dre Kirkpatrick picked it off.

The second interception came on a third and 4. Gordon and Hawkins ran a mesh concept to get open immediately on a quick in-breaking route. Gordon broke open right away and Manziel looked right at him, but didn’t throw it. The second part of the route concept was tight end Jordan Cameron running a crossing route on the back side, over the top of Gordon and Hawkins. He was also wide open. Manziel didn’t register any of that, and with no pocket clarity he tried to make a random sandlot play. His ill-advised pass was picked off by Cincinnati's Adam Jones.
Manziel’s only rhythm throw from the pocket to the intermediate level came on a third and 12 in the third quarter. The Bengals ran a “Tampa 2” zone with two deep safeties, Gordon ran a “7 stop” route to the void, and Manziel hit him for a nice gain.

The Bengals mostly played zone coverage concepts, and were very basic with those zone concepts. They wanted Manziel to read the coverage and make throws into voids. On that throw to Gordon, he did. It was a good read and he executed it well. But that was rare for him in his first start.

Manziel is just a rookie, and he could learn to hit more throws like the one to Gordon in rhythm from the pocket. But he needs significant work on his footwork as he plants and sets. Too often he’s off balance and not ready to deliver the ball. He still has a tendency to lock his front leg on his delivery. That will prevent him from driving the ball.

Manziel isn’t ready to play with patience in the pocket. Can he get there with experience? Maybe. But he has a lot to overcome to be a high-level NFL quarterback. He’s a small quarterback with average arm strength and almost no pocket skills and discipline at this point.

Interesting. I would have said well below average based on that game.

What happened to Johnny on Sunday could turn out to be the most positive thing possible. With an ego, extreme level of high confidence, and degree of entitlement that he has, a large dose of humble pie may be a blessing.

All elite quarterbacks, ALL of them play with a chip on their shoulder. Manziel does, but I believe the entitlement thing balances it out. For those who write him off, I hope if he humbles himself and reloads, you accept responsibility for jumping the gun. Its as if the 80 yard drive against Buffalo never happened.

Big to Ginormous Chips on their shoulders QB's:

Brady
Montana
Young
Rodgers
Peyton
Unitas
Bradshaw
Brees
Starr

A QB with a chip on their shoulder can be a good thing.

Overcoming obstacles is a big part of the job.

Versatile's breakdown is accurate and fair. Cosell and Mayock's breakdowns were also fair and accurate.

How many times has the "truth" completely changed in the NFL in one week?

How much money would you bet that Johnny is going to show all the mistakes, breakdowns, etc... this week that he did last week? How much dough? Would the detractors put their money where their keyboard is?

Johnny got a big dose of humble pie. Simple as that. It may be a good thing. Those of us who believe he may be "The Guy" probably thought this would have to happen at sometime. Its still the NFL. To be an elite QB in the NFL is without question one of the most difficult things to do on the planet earth. The timing of this could have been better, but maybe not.

This may turn out to be the next big letdown we all have had since 64. One after another, after another. I'll admit, I was as crushed on Sunday as I was after "the drive," after "the fumble," after the drafting of weeden, ....

Johnny may be a bust.

Maybe not.

Is he as bad as last Sunday? Is that the best he can do at reading coverage? Is that the footwork he is going to show over the next year? Is that all the velocity his arm has in it? Will he show that same mentality, or worse, every game that he had last Sunday?

I say no.

I'm not a betting guy, but I lived in Vegas for over 20 years.

Wanna bet?

The quotes after his pro-day were that his arm is equal to Bortles who was considered to have the strongest arm in the draft. Gruden commented on his arm strength after his QB show.

His velocity looked good against Buffalo.

He did not throw well on Sunday.

What should I believe?

all I can say for sure is that #84 is the worse blocking TE I ever saw.

during the game, the announcers on TV said they thought West went the wrong way. I dont see how based on that replay. Everyone was running to the right, why would he hand off to the left?

To be fair, some of us judged him before the last game...

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that a veteran back up would be any better or worse than keeping Hoyer.

Obviously Hoyer isn't the answer either, so I'm not so sure what difference it would make or what point you're trying to make for that matter. All I believe keeping Hoyer would accomplish would be a consistant questioning of who the starter should be and a possible division in the team.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9225042/nfl-hot-read-johnny-manziel-succeed-nfl


Here's Dilfer back then, back when.

Whitfield, Rossley, both are considered top quarterback gurus.

So whats changed?

(One real bad start. "The sky is falling")

Bradford doesn't sound like a terrible option, but he's never been able to stay healthy. And I believe everything is so in flux, there isn't an answer to your question. We don't know who will be released, who will be re-signed or available to us. Once that picture becomes more clear, I'll have a clear answer for you.

I know, without knowing the play call and who was supposed to do what, that we may disagree. And, we're going to disagree.

I don't understand, on that play, why the line AND West went right if the run was supposed to go left.

I'll grant, I'm not all up to speed on whatever offense we're running......but are you proposing that play was designed to go left? With only the fullback leading, while the d.e./linbacker was there? Plus, I believe, if you look at the video, the inside line backer on that side, plus a corner - they were there as well.

j/c

This is an interesting take on JFF's 1st game:

Johnny Manziel's Very Public Pantsing

By Greg Couch | December 16, 2014

The beauty of the carefully crafted comeuppance is that it seems to happen naturally, randomly. But done right, it is anything but. At its best, it's a takedown, really. A shift in power.


Why is that important? Because power is everything, particularly in the NFL. And sometimes you've got to reclaim it from a brash young talent who hasn't done a thing, yet is constantly being told how great he is. You have to earn the right to be a cocky SOB. And if you don't? Then the Cincinnati Bengals will kick your butt and make fun of you. The media will mock you and call you Johnny Forgettable and Johnny B. No Good and stuff like that.

Yes, Johnny Manziel was terrible Sunday. But the mistake everyone is making is thinking it was the Bengals who gave Manziel his comeuppance. Wrong, wrong, wrong. This was the work of Cleveland coach Mike Pettine. He pantsed Manziel in public. Intentionally.

I have no proof. But I recognize genius when I see it. Before the game, Boomer Esiason said on CBS' The NFL Today that Pettine should have his head examined for starting Manziel. Others have called starting Manziel in such a big game one of the dumbest coaching moves ever. Nobody seems to recognize how perfect the timing was or how obvious the goals were.

Manziel threw for just 80 yards and two interceptions. The team managed five first downs in the game, two of which came via penalties on the Bengals' defense. On one interception, Manziel basically did everything wrong, not planting, throwing across his body and floating the ball to the middle of the field. His arm looked weak. His timing was off. The Bengals kept mocking him by making that money sign. And the Browns lost 30-0. In other words: mission accomplished.

Pettine's postgame comments were a dead giveaway. He wouldn't commit to Manziel's future after this season, saying, "There will be question marks. He could hit it out of the park in the next two [games] and there'll still be doubts." He spoke of his rookie QB being "humbled" by the Bengals, and gave him only the most begrudging of endorsements: "We're going to move forward with him as our quarterback."

These are not the things you say about your first-round draft pick after his first start.

But what was the point of sticking it to his own guy? First off, Pettine had to start Manziel over Brian Hoyer. The Browns needed to win all three of their remaining games to make the playoffs. Hoyer is a backup who was having a career year, but in the past few games, he was reverting back to form. No way Pettine could have afforded to lose Sunday with Hoyer at the helm. These quarterback decisions weigh heavily on a coach's job security.

Meanwhile, the Cleveland faithful seemed to think they had the NFL's LeBron James on their hands. You believe the cocky kid when he's yours. You overlook the obvious flaws. It's not just Manziel that needed a takedown. It was his fans, too.

To his credit, Manziel hasn't been nearly as loud as he was in college. Still, in the past few weeks his girlfriend was tweeting that he should play more, he was involved in some sort of late-night skirmish with a fan that apparently wasn't his fault and there were rumors he had been slacking off. In a way, it reminds me of the situation in Denver a few years ago, when Broncos coach John Fox and his boss John Elway were trying to figure out how to get rid of Tim Tebow when everyone around them was Tebowing.

Fox and Elway didn't think Tebow could play. So they tried to pants him, too, just to show his fans what he was really about. And Tebow did stink for roughly 55 minutes a game, but then kept pulling out miracle wins that convinced his fans he had a direct connection to God. The mania grew. Finally, Fox and Elway took the hit with the fans anyway and dumped Tebow off on New York. It wasn't a popular move, but it was the right one for the franchise. Especially since they brought in Peyton Manning to replace him.

Pettine wants his own Peyton Manning. Or he at least wants to use a first-round pick on a QB. So if there were some miraculous chance that Manziel would've done well in his first start, then that would have been fine. If not, as Pettine surely expected, then that was fine too. He had almost nothing to lose.

Is it crazy to suggest some massive conspiracy was afoot? Sure, but consider this: All of a sudden, Cleveland's Johnny Football problem as disappeared. Genius.

maybe we could get a good team playing QB that would try to help him on game day. wonder where we could get one

I feel like that's giving too much credit to Pettine. Hoyer played himself onto the bench, and Pettine had no choice, even if he did know Manziel wasn't ready. But it accomplished nothing.
If Manziel doesn't give use real hope in the next two games, I have no idea what we do.

I saw this article earlier today, and it is definitely an interesting read.....though I think it's nothing but a work of fiction. It is better and no less truthful than the usual trash we're fed by the usual culprits.

Maybe the point is to show Johnny that what he has been doing isn't enough. He hasn't been listening so he needed to be shown.

And shown before the offseason, so that he puts in the work and is ready for next year.

Johnny will either learn or he won't. IMO we will learn a lot more about him in the next 2 games.

This article reads like something I might write:

1. If I was drunk at my keyboard
2. Was feeling "creative"
3... and wanted to play 'Devil's Advocate,' just to see what crap I might be able to stir up on the board.

NO NFL coach in his right mind would risk tanking a playoff shot to teach a rookie player (at ANY position) a "lesson in humility."
NO NFL coach in his right mind would place 52 other players- players he's burned months of 18 hour-days to train, mentor, and groom- under the bus at a pivotal point in his team's season... just to play a game of "I told you so" to one player... and an entire fan base of MILLIONS.
NO NFL coach in his right mind would risk his own job security to "bring the fans in line" with his way of thinking.



As Sigmund Freud once said: "Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar."


Shanny screwed the pooch with his CIN game plan, the team came out flat and under-prepared... and the Browns got their collective arse spanked on national TV by a real NFL team who had something to play for.

Karma.
We did it to them; they did it to us. It's NFL Divisional Football at it's best.

Nothing more, nothing less.

End of story.

IMHO, it's as simple (and painful) as that.

Common sense. How uncommon.

Like any coach will intentionally blow up a game that badly. Pettine has no guarantees as to his own employment. He;s not going to make himself and his coaches look bad by blowing up a game like that.

It's a mess that will take another 2-3 years at least to get clean from. That's the tough but honest answer.

On draft day, when they traded up for Manziel I had this empty feeling of knowing we'd suck another 3-4 years. Sucked any excitement out of me for this season and since then I've been apathetic. I had the same feeling of despair regarding the outlook of the Browns after the 2009 draft.

Hats off to Vers for admitting to have missed the boat on Manziel, but honest question: what else did you guys expect? What Vers wrote breaking down Manziel's start was exactly the QB we saw in College. That stupid 2nd INT in the endzone was the SAME STUPID PLAY he was applauded for vs Bama. Just that Mike Evans didn't save the day for him.

What now? I don't know. It's a mess...let's all just hope that it was really Farmer making that pick, at least he can be fired one day if he doesn't improve his evaluations. If this was Haslam's brainfart...oh boy

Read several things in the last few days that confirmed Haslam's involvement and that Teddy was Farmers guy.

But we also tried to trade up for both Cooks and Beckham so I don't think Farmer was high on either QB. Once Cooks and Beckham were gone they made a move on QB and Haslam inserted himself into the equation.

Take comfort in knowing Teddy won't be any good either. Just my gut feeling. I think Teddy will be just good enough to keep Minn in middle of the road purgatory.

I have no clue what will become of Manziel in the NFL. But because he gets so much crap just after his first start from all media angles, I want him to rebound and shove it back in everyone's faces....particularly Merril Hoge. I will personally troll Hoge's twitter account for years to come if Manziel proves to be a worthwhile QB in this league. But I understand things aren't in his favor to this point.

Regarding the "was Manziel a Farmer or Haslem pick" debate...didn't it come directly from the mouth the QB coach that Haslem said to make the move..and said QB coach ended up getting in trouble with the organization for making that public statement on Arkansas radio?

I am concerned if an owner is making draft picks and the GM does not have the final word-- that's why he is hired, and the Browns, and other NFL teams have seen what happens when those in charge of these decision are trumped. But at this point, it really doesn't matter, I just want Johnny to be good. If not, we truly have wasted 3-4 years and we really should blow it up all again just like after Mangini and start over again. That's an action I hope we don't have to consider.

Blowing it up would be foolish even if Manziel isn't the guy.

Consistency everywhere but QB is better than inconsistency everywhere.

Keep building the team and create an organization that a QB can step into and be successful. Consistent coaching staffs, consistent systems, consistent FO, consistent message.

In all of Kosar's mostly incoherent gibberish I think this is what he was trying to say, and I'd agree with that.

Agree 100%... I'm not going to sit here and say JF didn't make any mistakes, because he made several, but the team as a whole made several mistakes too which didn't help any single matter.

Almost feel bad for the kid given it was his first start and just bc the "hype" that follows him, makes people want to push the knife in deeper and rip him even more than really he deserves. JF knows the best way to shut up the critics, and that is to come out and play a good game at the QB position in Carolina. The odds are for sure against the kid though, as well as all the magnifying glasses from media and etc will be focused on him.

Hats off to Vers for admitting to have missed the boat on Manziel


All of one game and your hat's off and we missed the boat? Good luck with that. You never get tired of ripping on anything Browns do you? It has not mattered who was Coach or FO or Owner you've been going off on them for years. Your getting real old.

The table is set. The deck is stacked against him IMO, and much of it is self-inflicted for JM. Too much jawbone. Hate interviews, whether it is him or BH, saying we have to play better as a squad. Speak for thyself, JohnBoy. Clean up the mess of things you can control, then lump others into the equation. I want to see a simpler Shanny plan executed well. Get vertical. Own the middle on offense.

Hats off to Vers for admitting to have missed the boat on Manziel


All of one game and your hat's off and we missed the boat? Good luck with that. You never get tired of ripping on anything Browns do you? It has not mattered who was Coach or FO or Owner you've been going off on them for years. Your getting real old.

Man, I guess that any player who flops in his 1st game, especially with players playing like crap around them, is doomed to be a bum forever.

I remember when Brady Quinn had a solid 1st start ..... against a bum defense ..... and many people went nuts over how he was the future f the NFL. I warned not to go overboard because it was one game against guys who wouldn't be in the NFL the following year. What happened?

One game tells us exactly ...... nothing. Manziel played badly, as did the rest of the team. We did the one thing we could not do against the Bengals, and that is we fell behind. We were down 17-0 before we had our 7th offensive snap. By that point, Manziel had thrown one pass, and it was dropped.

Gee, how could he play that badly?