DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are things in Cleveland really THAT bad? (Per media/fan outcry).

I don't think things are nearly as bad internally as everyone is making it out to be.

Our GM did a very solid job in free agency and the draft, and then this team started 6-3. Which is progress. This teams been utter crap the last seven years (really all 15 we've been back).

Mike Pettine appears to know what he's doing (though he's made some rookie errors), he's a no-nonsense, straight forward, hard working type of guy whose doing his best to install a new, winning culture in Cleveland.

Going into the season all of us wanted PROGRESS and to be COMPETITIVE. Well WE'VE SHOWN PROGRESS and we've BEEN COMPETITIVE. This is what we all wanted prior to the season started. I want a winning product as much as the next fan, but put yourself in Pettines shoes...

What would YOU have done if your team started 6-3, and then your starting QB suddenly starts playing like a backup and can't move the ball or avoid turning it over?

1 TD drive in 29 possessions isn't how you lead a team to the playoffs. (Also lead 1 TD drive against Houston, and none against Jacksonville).

Turning the ball over 8 times in 4 games isn't how you lead a team to the playoffs.

Our offense had 14 possessions against the Colts. We scored 10 points, punted nine times, missed a field goal and threw two interceptions.

I appreciate the heart and effort Brian Hoyer has put into this team, he's been a huge part of why we've won seven games, but he's also been a big part of why we've lost six games.

In the last month of the season he's played his way OUT of the starting roll. Brian Hoyer (along with Pettine) have RAISED the bar and have set a NEW STANDARD that we fans can and should expect from our QB (and all players). Hoyer was not "playing like a Brown" this past month.

What kind of message do you send to the team and fans by continuing to start the player whose HURTING the team?

I don't think Pettine had any other choice but to roll the dice with Manziel.

Had Johnny not fallen on his face, and looked mildly competent, and we won the game (or even a close, competitive loss), would we be hearing all this noise from the media and all these former players about how our organization stinks internally? Doubt it...

That's just my opinion.

I keep hearing all this outside noise about how our franchise is a mess, how Johnny is a bust, and how it was the worst coaching move in the teams recent history.

Personally I like what our coach and GM have done this year in terms of building a talented and competitive roster. We've won seven games for the first time in seven years. We're in good salary cap position and have 10 draft picks next year. Sure not going to the playoffs is disappointing, but honestly did anyone expect to when the year started?

I don't think the situation we're in is nearly as bad as it's being made out to be from the media.

Look at a sum up of the positives we can take away from this year...

#1 - Good salary cap position for next year.
#2 - 10 draft picks next year (six in the first four rounds).
#3 - We don't have to worry about a coaching/GM change again.
#4 - The culture in Cleveland has changed, players expect to win and believe they can.
#5 - We've developed a lot of good, young players (Crowell, West, Bitonio, Gabriel, Skrine, Robertson, Kirksey, ect.)

If Johnny can improve and not bust, and we can upgrade our OL/DL (where we've been the weakest in all of our losses aside from the QB play) then this team is going to be a contender in the next few years WITHOUT A DOUBT.

End of rant.

I think everybody needs to look at the prediction thread.

Then look at out current record.

I do that for a simple reality check. No, things aren't bad at all. Once again our main issue is just the QB position. We finally saw what average QB play does to the Cleveland browns: we've been tied, or been in first place for our division multiple times this year.

We are 7-7 in December. That hasn't happened in 7-8 years.

I finally feel we have a great coaching staff, even though I'd still argue chud and co. Got screwed. But we got an OC who knows what he's doing for the most part, and we got a DC who has our defense performing well.

I haven't seen nearly as many HC screw ups from pettine(challenges, TO, etc) as I have from our previous HC.

We got a good GM, at least so far, and one of the biggest things is guys aren't being handed jobs.

I think the biggest problem from us fans point of I view is that although it isn't as bad as we sometimes make it seems, the fact is our team SHOULD be in the playoffs this year. But the team did everything to not deserve it.

I understand it's any given Sunday, but that loss to Jacksonville was inexcusable. The loss to the ravens should've been a W.

Those two games by themselves were just... I dunno.

But we have to start somewhere I suppose.

When we go back and look at the losses we can pin-point the turning point in every game that should have been different...

Loss to the Ravens: Hoyer hits Gabriel on a 70-yard pass setting up 1st and goal at the 6 yard line while we're up 21-17 in the 4th quarter. Score a touchdown, ice the game, we win. Instead we get no points (tackle for loss, sack, penalty, blocked field goal).

Loss to Jaguars: Hoyer misses Cameron in the endzone in the 2nd quarter that makes it a 10-0 game. Then on our very next drive we go for it on 4th & 2 instead of kicking a FG that puts us up 9-0 (should have been 13-0 at that point) Then in the 4th quarter with around 6:00 left to go, Poyer muffs a punt inside our 5-yard line while we're only down 10-6.

Loss to Texans: While the final score said 23-7, when it was tied 7-7 in the 2nd quarter, we were on the Texans 20-yard line, marching in for another TD when Crowell fumbles and completely changes the game in their favor.

Loss to Colts: Zero productivity from Hoyer, but had Gordon been able to haul in that pass for a 1st down late, or had Cundiff been able to hit that FG in the 2nd quarter, maybe it's different? Still a 1-point loss that should have gone our way.

Buffalo, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh were just BAD losses.

This teams been competitive. It's just a young team that has to cut out mental mistakes and stop shooting themselves in the foot at critical points in games.

I think it's huge (in a good way) that we're going to be keeping the same front office and same coaching staff going into next year.

Our list of roster needs is probably the lowest it's been in YEARS going into the offseason also.

I think it's as simple as this: COMPLETE TEAMS peak in December; incomplete teams do not.

Injuries, attrition and inexperience have evened the books on the Browns for 2014. Earlier in the season, we won some games that we would have lost in years past. We overachieved, and surprised the league.

Now, our lack of depth and the team's relative inexperience at closing out a season have caught up with us. We aren't as bad as last week's team, and we aren't as good as the team that shellacked PIT.

I see this season as a pretty positive first step. With an offseason to retool and load some new talent, I think we'll see a Cleveland team that will be giving the rest of the AFCN some real sleepless nights come next Dec.

Deep breaths are suggested. This team was not yet tooled for a playoff run. I thank them for an entertaining season, and look forward to seeing what they can do in 2015.

I have been very pleased this year with the exception of two big mistakes - drafting and starting Manziel.

My biggest fear there is that both of those decisions were made by a guy who can't be fired, but that of course is just my speculation.

Other than that, I think this season can be viewed as a success. I like the moves we made going in, and we had relevant football into December.

I agree with all the points on this thread.

Pettine has been a really pleasant surprise, as has O'Neill, Shanahan and Farmer.

Hoyer was excellent till he hit his own wall. The last month for him was just such a detachment from what he was and I don't believe it was teams adjusting - teams can start to nail you down after a handful of games, they see your tendencies.

I still think he could be something - I just don't think he was physically and mentally ready, especially after the intense rehab from the ACL, for the 16 game haul. Sounds stupid, but rookies hit the wall all the time. Just because he's older and been in the league doesn't mean it may not apply. He's never played a whole season.

The difference watching Hoyer and Manziel is not even night and day and I am no Hoyer apologist. Manziel was overwhelmed, first instinct was to run, he found out that even DL are quick. I don't believe Shanahan put read options in out of choice - I personally feel he put them in to make Manziel more comfortable. Until JF can be a pocket passer first, he will never be what we need. I hope he can turn it around otherwise that is 2 wasted 1st round picks on a QB in nearly as many years. Bridgewater looks good - probably the best of the bunch after Carr. Oh well.

We have a real nucleus of talent here. Talent has always been lacking. We've seen our coaches out-coach other coaches. We've seen adjustments.

Perhaps the rookie wall just doesn't apply to players?

I'm enthused, looking forward to Sunday, as always. I think we have made real strides, we need better depth, we need a pass rusher although Mingo seems to have come on the past few games.

Personally I'd get what I could for Gordon this offseason. He's undoubtedly talented but I can't help but feel his arrival back on the scene and our offensive implosion have more cause and effect attached than coincidence. Shanny, Hoyer and Gordon take some of the blame there IMHO, but even with Mack out, there was a major crash in offensive output. I'm probably way off base but the offense worked better without a focal point.

I think the year as a whole has been good and we have promise going into next year... But the thing that worries me is we were what? 6-3 and then have fallen off the map with losing 4 of the last 5.... Not how you want to finish the year

I've never felt the need to differentiate what is my opinion and what it a fact. Most folks can read and determine for themselves.

But if I must clarify, it is my opinion that drafting him was a mistake (an opinion on it's way to being a fact )

It is a fact that starting him on Sunday was am mistake. He flat out wasn't ready.



It is very easy to ruin a QB in the NFL. Once you break their internal clock, it becomes very, very unlikely it will ever get corrected.

If he wasn't ready, he wasn't ready. Throwing him in just because is what perennially bad franchises do.



So do I.

I highly doubt it.



Why?

I thought he might catch the defense on its heels here or there and luck out a bit, but it was pretty close to what I expected.

Shanahan didn't do him any favors, but what did people expect from a kid who ran an Air Raid offense in college and spent the early portion of his pro carwer snorting coke and hanging out with teen pop stars.

What were these expectations rooted in? I ask that not just of you, but everyone who somehow thought the kid would come in and perform at an acceptable level.

Granted, Shanahan did him no favors, but I certainly saw a big likelihood of a scared, confused, unprepared kid being hassled.

The writing was on the wall.

I know right. When was the last time we could say that we will finish no worse that 1 under 500, at 500 or 1 over 500.... But still it somehow feels like a disappointment when there has been so much talk about and hopes for a playoff team.

Not sure I agree on Farmer just yet. So far our First round picks (2) have done nothing to warrant high praise from me. Id trade Gilbert for that guard Dallas got much later, or one of the stud WR's we passed on. And JF was and IS a crap shoot. Not what a talent starved team needed from two first rounders.

One game in which everything positive was negated for the entire first quarter by either a horrible call or a drop or something. It didnt matter who the QB was, the game was a bust early on.

He may be great, he may be out of the league in another year but one thing is for certain, one game doesnt make a career either way.

I said before the year started that Johnny was not ready to start and needed a year to sit and learn. I said we would be 8-8 this year if we were lucky. I said I was happy with the front office and head coach. I also said we needed one more good draft and a good off season picking up a few free agents before we would have a chance at the playoffs. If anybody can disagree with me on any of those comments I would be glad to discuss them. Some posters around here just think I am a crazy old fart, and they would be right lol, but I do know what i am talking about.

but... but... if I do that, I'll have to put down my pitchfork, and snuff this torch...


...and I spent so long building that woodpile under the stake....

Dawg, that green text. Stop it.

Sitting on the west coast, I can offer a different perspective.

The Browns are no longer at the bottom of the league. That is progress.

If they find a QB, they will be legitimate. that is an if that has eluded them since 1999.

There are a lot of first year players that have had unexpected impact. I imagine that if the drafter were redone, K'wan, and Gabriel and Crowell would have been selected. It is always nice to fill out the roster with impact FA.

Now find the QB. Hoyer was exposed, and I have always had reservations about Manziel. He is a boom or bust pick. Until he learns the position of QB he will not be successful. I foresee another pick this year.

Despite the drama about Banner and Lombardi, Haslam seems to have made the right decision in Farmer.

First mock raft I've seen has Browns choosing DE Dante Fowler of Florida and WR Jalen Strong of AZ State.. and so it begins..

http://www.csnwashington.com/media_gallery/early-report-2015-nfl-mock-draft?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

agreed.
In total.

NFL Mock Drafts - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/mock-draft

Rang has us taking WR Davante Parker and OT Audrus Peat, (and I do not see us passing on a pass rusher in the 1st) and Brugler has taking DE Dante Fowler and WR Kevin White.

It will be interesting to see what happens. I do not see us taking a WR in the 1st round. Shanahad has shown that he and the assistant coaches can take an UDFA and turn him into a solid weapon. I am sure that they can do the same with a 2nd - 4th round pick.

I think Swish hit it on the first response. Check your predictions folks.

Consider this. If before that first game in an offseason where neither QB were covering themselves in glory. New front office (again) new coaching staff (again), starter QB and starter WR coming off ACL reconstruction, losing a superstar for 10 games, losing Mack for as long as we have, losing Cameron for as long as we did, dansby, Mingo playing hurt, undrafted starters everywhere.

How many of us with even the most rose coloured foresight or pessimistic hindsight would not have taken playing competitive meaningful football instead of draft talk in the month of December?

It's been a ride man. Ups and downs, the highs were never really that high and the lows were never really that low. The truth is always somewhere in between but I think most of us can rationally see progress, another off season, trades, fa, good draft, lock in some key pieces and have a red hot go.

For me, I'm gonna sit and relax with these last 2 games, see how the team reacts to the egg laying and im full of optimism for the offseason. Rather be sitting here than bemoaning another 2-3 win season!

Probably because we haven't played a lousy Division like the NFC South in the same 7-8 years?

We are 4-7 against the rest of the NFL (all AFC teams).

This "improvement" is the same we had 2007, it's a mirage and we have the same DA/Quinn QB "problem".

FA and draft sucked for the most part btw. Farmer drafted two prospects in the 1st round that can't even occupy backup rolse adequately. Both are "projects" at best now. Bitonio was a HR and Kirksey a good nickel-LB, but not a starter. West is dime a dozen. Desir? lol A couple of the UDFA rooks are better than most of our class already.

I am shocked when I hear that Farmer whiffed in the draft with two first round busts in Gilbert & Manziel.

I don't know many CBs that come in the league and light it up their first year. And Gilbert definitely looked good in the Colts game, even taking an INT to the house. So is he a bust, probably not. Is he going to turn into to a valuable first round pick, I'm betting he will. Did Farmer whiff on that pick, it is possible, but I don't think so. Only time will tell. Given the time it takes for a CB to develop, I'm willing to bet he looks much improved next year and the year after that he'll likely be playing at a very high level.

Manziel? Big question mark, but is he a bust at this point? Hell no. Does he have a lot to learn? Hell yes. But we have just begun to scratch the surface here and to say that the FO whiffed on that pick is simply foolish.

Overall, this team is much improved with a rookie HC, a rookie QB, a rookie, LG, two rookie RBs, rookies in the secondary and in the LB corps. I can't wait to see what we have after this off season, and I'm really excited to see what this team becomes after two and three years of consistency within the systems and successful influxes of talent. We're on the right path, now we must stay the course.

As angry and as frustrated as I get with this team, the reasons for loss have moved from lack of talent and poor execution to simply lack of fire and want to. Had we shown up ready to play in each and every game like we showed up for Pitt & Cincy, we'd be sitting at 10-4 or better. The team needs to learn this. And I believe the HC & GM will continue to purge those guys that don't see it that way, ala Ward & DQ, until each and every one of them understand it and show up to play lights out every Sunday. That's where the FO & coaching staff will shine, by understanding that and eventually smothering the losing culture until it no longer exists in Cleveland.

JMHO

jc

We over achieved early on and could not sustain it regardless of who we played. We beat division foes this season, that has been something we can hang our hat on.

We hit it big with Crowell and K'Wuan Williams, I'll agree with that Django.

I think Justin Gilbert still has big potential to turn into a good starter. He's shown nothing but improvement the second half of the year. Bitonio is a pro-bowler, major home run. Kirksey has shown some flashes in the pan, hopefully with more development and another full offseason or two he'll turn into a quality starter, not everyone is Patrick Willis their rookie year. West looks OKAY, but Pierre Desir hasn't shown much.

The draft could have been better, but it also could have been much, much worse.

As I stated in my original post, as far as needed positions, this team doesn't have any glaring holes to fill, we just need to improve and add depth in the trenches. I made a draft discussion thread in the tailgate forum and posted a mock. Their are a few guys I really like and would love to see this team go get in the draft.

1st Round - Brandon Schreff OT/Iowa
1st Round - Dante Fowler DE/Florida
2nd Round - Sammie Coates WR/Auburn
3rd Round - Nick O'Leary TE/Florida State
4th Round - Stefan Diggs Return Specialist/Maryland
4th Round - Henry Anderson DT/Stanford
5th Round - Jalston Fowler FB/Alabama
6th Round - Jared Roberts K/Colorado State
7th Round - Michael Dyer RB/Louisville (Character/health concerns but in the 7th round, their is no risk).

If we can sign RG and another 3-4 DE/DT in free agency I think a draft like this would really improve our team in terms of talent and depth.

Mike Pettine said it best yesterday, nobody was crying about the crappy culture in Cleveland when we beat Atlanta and got to our 7th win. One poor start by Manziel and suddenly everyone is ready to blow up Cleveland again.

As originally said, if Manziel can improve and pan out, and at the very least turn into a good game manager like Hoyer, I think we've already got enough talent to win 7 or 8 games, another good offseason/draft and it could put us over the top.

+1

Very true. When's the last time we've been able to blow out Pittsburgh or Cincinnati? I would hope our guys have enough pride and effort left in them to go give Baltimore a game on the 28th.

I hear that. Yeah the tides have turned, the defense was playing bad football early when the offense was doing good. Then the better the defense got, the worse the offense got.

In any case, I don't think many of us Browns fans would bank on having teh season thus far as we have. I know I for one didn't. We did exactly as you said, overachieved and exceeded most of everyone's expectations. One of the better seasons we've seen here from this team in quite a long time.

You get too wrapped up in this stuff. You really do.

Indy could forego their next 5 first round picks and would be a Super Bowl contender in each season.

I wonder why that is.

I think he's only played in one game... and not even a full game he came in when Haden and Justin both went out with injury... and he played well IMO.

With Buster, Haden, Williams and then Gilbert and Desir - we got some depth there and the best thing is most people in the cornerback group can and should only get better and have upside. The group is full of young people and such.

we are 7-7. I honestly didn't think that was likely really.

So, while there are signs that things are as rosey as a 7-7 team should be, I'm still feeling optimistic overall.

we've only had 2 other teams since the return that had 7 wins.. Both of them imploded the following year.

The real test is next season, do we take a step forward or implode again.

No, things are really that bad.

Not to be a nit-pick, but when Butch was here we went 7-9, then 9-7. Just saying

That's why the Manziel pick left me apathetic. I know how important the QB is, everybody knows, it's common sense.

But as good as Luck is, he won't win anything anytime soon, because the Colts lack talent everywhere. He will carry them to the POs every season, but to win there, you need more than a QB because most other teams in the POs have a good QB too.

As for the Gilbert pick. Just as a reminder for you guys with blinders on. Here are the picks from 4-22 in round 1:

4 WR Watkins
5 OLB Mack
6 OT Matthews
7 WR Evans
8 CB Gilbert
9 OLB Barr
10 TE Ebron
11 OT Lewan
12 WR Beckham
13 DT Donald
14 CB Fuller
15 ILB Shazier
16 G/T Z.Martin
17 ILB CJ Mosley
18 FS Pryor
19 OT J.James
20 WR Cooks
21 FS Clinton-Dix
22 QB Manziel

If you would make a poll among analysts who are the 5 weakest picks after their rookie season, both Browns picks would be in the top (worst) 5...easy. Excpet for Ebron every other pick down to 17 Mosley was an instant contributor, most of them already above league AVG or better. Meanwhile, Gilbert "needs time", "can't tackle", was unable to beat the guy he was drafted to beat, who is incredibly inconsistent himself (Skrine) and was even beat by an UDFA rook for slot duties. Sounds like we drafted another project "hopeful" in the top 10 of an incredibly strong class. Actually, not ONE but TWO projects in the 1st round.

Depressing

Farmer fell in love with trying to be smart. He couldn't wait for people to write about how smart he was for getting Buffalo's first next year.

It is what it is. I'd rather have Watkins or Evans than Gilbert.

It's still not as big a deal as you make it out to be, and I still want Farmer here.

If we had Luck on this team, we wouldn't care that our two first round picks were sucking it up because we'd be playing for a first round bye right now.

I'm not trying to diminish the importance of the draft. I'm just trying to diminish the weight you constantly put on it. It only affects us so much because we haven't solved the most critical position yet. And that is incredibly hard to do.

I've been arguing in other threads that we need to stay the course with FO, Coach, Scheme, Message, and that will help us in the long run get to middle of the pack until we find the QB. I believe that. Consistency will get us to 8-8 or better every season. I can see an argument in that case that we shouldn't have taken a chance on Manziel at 22 and instead keep building the team up until we find the guy. But I still think you are putting too much weight on this stuff. It's only glaring because we don't have a QB.

All of the "great" GMs and coaches in this league are only great because they found a QB. That's it. I always laugh when they show stats about how great Bellyache is or Ted Thompson or whoever has consistent success over and over again. They make it like those guys are that much better than their peers. It's simply not true. They just have a QB.

QFT

This constant turnover in FO personnel is a surefire recipe for perennial bottom-feeder status. How many times do we have to watch the same mistakes bring the same results before we try something different?

Sometimes, doing nothing is actually doing something. Build it right, and wait for your QB.

Smart. Logical. Common-sense.

At this point, my only fear is Haslam. I'd love it if he'd keep his nose in the skybox, and out of football ops. He strikes me as an impatient, 'Type A' personality who just might clean house for the sake of "making something happen." If he does it again within 3 years, I'm done following this team. It's simply too painful to watch the same train crash at the same place on the tracks, regime after regime. Insanity.

Life's too short to stick with a hobby that hurts all the time.

Judging draft picks in year 1 is really dangerous, as you should, and I believe do, know.

Gilbert has shown improvement late in the year. He also got hurt. Who knows what he will become. He has the talent to be a really good CB, if not a great one. He has prototypical CB size and speed. CB is a premium position in today's NFL. If Gabriel comes on next year, as I believe he will, then he will have been well worth the pick.

This year we had a kid come out of nowhere to grab a job in Williams. We also already had a capable, if smaller, CB in Skrine. We did not have to force Gilbert into the fire and leave him to burn. When he struggled, as could be expected, then he sat, and learned. He got to come into a game without the weight of expectations, and played well. We are so fortunate to have depth at CB. How many other teams would love to have both depth and quality at this important position?

Further, Desir, who people had working in a grocery store by now, some wondering why we kept him over McFadden, played a nice game against the Bengals, one of only a few players who did. While it is dangerous to evaluate a guy on one game, he did a nice job, breaking up a deep pass, and making a nice stop in the run game. He had one other tackle in the run game as well, that was more down the field. He also has the size the team wants on the outside. If both he and Desir come on, we'll be in tremendous shape in our secondary when we combine those 2 players with Haden and Williams, and we'll be in really nice shape at CB.

As far as Manziel, it is also dangerous to judge a rookie QB on his 1st game, especially in a game where the team appeared to ... not play up to their potential. The 2nd Bengals game was a remarkable reversal of fortunes from the 1st game between the 2 teams. In the 1st game, the Browns got ahead, and beat the Bengals over the head with the run game.In the 2nd game ..... the exact opposite happened.

We had a horrible game against the Bengals. It happened with a rookie QB making his 1st start, That can happen. We have another 1st round CB in Gilbert who has been up and down, but who has shown talent of late. Let's let them get into next season before we cut them, shall we?

I remember Joe Haden being 3rd on the depth chart and struggling at times his rookie year. He improved as the season went along, just like what Gilbert is doing right now...

Great quote.

And pretty much sums up my feeling about this team.

+1

I agree Daman - next year needs to be building on what we've seen. Otherwise the progress this year counts for nowt.

We've played good teams hard - Balt, Pitt, Indy - I don't believe this is a mirage like some state. We still have holes, we still have depth issues. QB needs fixing but I think at this point next year, if JM isn't showing us he's part of the solution, then we need to look again.

Does anyone think Cutler is a viable fit? Given the criticisms of Cutler - unable to check out of plays, etc - and our own investment in JM - is that even an option? I think not.

Just to think when Hoyer was playing well some "fans" were deriding him as an Alex Smith-alike. I would love to have a QB like Smith, performing as he is for the Chiefs, for the foreseeable future. Little steps, little steps...