DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are things in Cleveland really THAT bad? (Per media/fan outcry).

Alex Smith has thrown, IIRC, no TD pases to WRs all year. He has played OK, and has a nice 18-6 TD-INT ratio this year, and that is solid enough, but the Chiefs aren't going anywhere, even if they make the playoffs. He is lucky to have a nice 1-2 in Charles and Davis, both as runners and as receivers, or else he'd be in real trouble.

I thought that he had turned the corner last year, but he seems to be back into "play carefully and absolutely make zero mistakes" mode, instead of "go make plays" mode.

Don't know about you but having a "play carefully and absolutely make zero mistakes" QB from about 5 weeks back would have us atop of the division.

Before I condemn a 2nd tier QB like Smith as being fit for my team, we need to exhibit, as a franchise, that we are ready to step up from that place he exists, i.e., challenging for their division and making the playoffs. How on earth we can look down on that from where we are at, with all due respect, bemuses me. We also have supporting talent, enough to sustain a game manager - see games 1-10.

jmho - IF our team pulls it together enough for 1 win out of the next two. ( hopefully the ravens) but I'll take two wins. that's an 8-8 or 9-7 season. We DO have the talent to pull it off. It all depends on how much JM grows up this week. No one expects that no one.

Groza76

Go Browns, win or lose, FOREVER!!

I just want us to show some steel against the Ravens, last game. That will linger into the off-season.

"Fight him hard Rock, just like last time. That was beautiful"

Oh it sounds good to fast forward. But that would be ignoring how poorly Hoyer played for a month. Say what you will, but we had no chance to win the way Hoyer was playing either. People don't start rookie QB's because "they're ready". They start them because they have no choice.

Manziel didn't win the job. Hoyer gave it away.

We have a game manager type QB. He is sitting on the bench. He just wasn't a good enough game manager.

Maybe if we could have given Hoyer a great receiving back or 2, he might be able to do the same thing Smith is doing. I don't know how Reid keeps his WRs heads in the game when they get to the red zone, because they never even see the ball. I mean, how does a team get to week 15, and have the entire WR corps still have NO TD catches ...... especially when they have Dwayne Bowe?

I think that Smith is a decent game manager type. I thought that he showed signs of more than that last year, but then he regressed this year.

I hope that Manziel can become more than just a game manager. If he can't, then he'll be replaced. This offense can handle a game manager type, if everything works just right. However, we lost Mack, and look at the monkey wrench that threw into things.

This seems to be one of those threads that people gang-up on others who are simply expressing their opinion. I really don't care about any of that and will offer my honest opinions.

I see both good and bad w/what this regime has done.

Bad:

--Gilbert and Manziel in round 1. Both have been awful. We could have had Beckham and Bridgewater. Freaking Gilbert couldn't beat out an undrafted rookie. Wow! Monumental fail.

--West? The guy we got as a FA is better.

--DeSir or whatever his name is. Terrible.

--Ignoring the OL in FA when there were so many quality guys available was stupid.

--Team has been inconsistent as heck. We have played an amazingly WEAK schedule and if it weren't for that, we would have a much worse record.

--The handling of the QB position was amateurish.

--Not drafting a WR after Gordon was suspended was ignorant.

--Our defensive coordinator has a hard time generating pressure and is soft on the edges.

--Dumping Charles Johnson was a bad move.

Good:

--Bitonio was a very good pick.

--Getting Crowell, Williams, and Agnew were great moves.

--Shanny was an excellent hire. The guy is borderline genius.

--Resigning Mack was an excellent move. I know he got hurt, but one can't forecast that, especially since he had never missed a snap.

--I didn't like the Kirskey pick, but the kid is pretty good.

--We have shown up big in several games.

--I like the Dray acquisition.

--Allowing TJ Whiff to walk was smart.

--Upgrading to Whit and Dansby were solid moves.

Summary:

I know it is almost against board rules to look at things objectively and point out both the good and the bad, but that's my take on the situation. Have a nice day.

I feel like your goods contradict your bads..

I just don't understand the disgust that Gilbert and Desir receive on this board.

A players biggest transition is between year one and two. When they have had a full off season to be a professional football player. Smart ones will take advantage of the time to develop themselves and their game.

Yes, some such as McFadden who turn out to be duds. But you have to give players a chance to develop.

Yeah but.. If someone doesn't come in and play at a high level right away.. they obviously aren't any good..

Especially if someone wanted to draft someone else, at a completely different position, that has had even a little bit of success..

Obviously that proves everyone in charge is an idiot.. and we will suck forever..

I still have Hoyers back, as does most of the team.

This entire drama that has played out under Pet's lack of leadership and his inability to handle a QB is front and center with me at this point. It's something I have complained about since TC.

You can play these little games with every other position player you have on your team but NOT the QB, and this has been a disaster for everyone. Hoyer has established himself as a leader on this team, Pet and a good portion of the fan base can NOT like that all they want, but facts are facts.

Lets look at it another way, if at any point this season had Hoyer even gotten within a eyelash of the down right horrible play I saw from JF last weekend he would have been benched immediately, but here we are all ready to see JF part 2, and let me ask one simple question what did you all see that would warrant another go with JF?

Pet for his part says, I saw a spark from JF, really when did that happen. Hell thats what you look for but when did the sparks fly during that game I must have missed it. But if someone saw something from the kid please tell me what you saw because I never saw anything that looked like he was prepared to play, and the most alarming part for me is he cannot read a defense, and that folks is DEATH to a QB.

I saw a guy that isn't even remotely ready to play football at the NFL level. There isn't even the slightest doubt about that, yet his supporters will tell you the team quit on him. Maybe they quit on him because they know he sucks, and for Pet's part he trots the kid out there and says I don't know what will see, which should clue everyone in to the FACT that he isn't ready if he were then they would be saying we think he will do well he has tirelessly worked and put in the effort to prepare to play. We are very confident he will do well he certainly has worked his butt off to EARN this opportunity, but we hear none of that. What we get is a shrug of the shoulders and a we don't know.

When Hoyer was playing well, not one time did Pet show true support, because like many of you he thought and feels as though JF is the future and was bound to do all he could to pressure Hoyer week in and week out until finally Hoyer broke down. Your damned right I blame Pet for the QB situation because he caused it.

Hoyer started rehabbing last fall, and had I think less then a hand full of days away from work over the course of a year when totaled up. Instead of working with Hoyer and building him up and insisting he get away and recharge is battery a bit Pet continues to make Hoyer operate on egg shells. I think Hoyer hit the rookie wall, and I think Pet did all he could to make sure he did. Yup he is no rookie but he has never had the physical and mental experience of guiding a team thru a season, and instead of his coach helping him get thru it he gets no support from the staff, it finally got to him.

And for our part we get a QB that isn't even close to being ready and to continue with this tells me Pet is a lost cause when it comes to handling QB's. I would NEVER play a player that isn't ready it sets them up to fail and thats not the objective the objective is for the player to have success. Never in all my years of watching football have I ever scene a player less prepared to play then JF, and another week of playing isn't going to change that. He suddenly isn't going to be able to do the things he needs to do to have success.

In a way its good that it happened because now we all know that JF isn't ready at this point that ship has sailed. I don't see anything in the kid at this point, but week 2 will be better right????

That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this board...

You must not remember back a few weeks, because we were all being told how much better JF was going to be and how he would save our season...

WELL

What does that have to do with the fact that you just claimed that Pettine PURPOSELY RUINED Brian Hoyer?

We'll, on the positive side, we're competitive, and easily could have 10 or even 11 wins right now (could easily have 4 or 5, too). Without injuries to Mack and the DL, we would be much stronger now.
But, the most important piece of the team, the QB, is a question mark and it could take years to straighten out. If Johnny plays like that for two more games, it'll be hard to see him as the answer. We can play him all next year to make sure, and there goes that year. We can draft a new guy and, if we get it right, we'll be going in the right direction …. in 2017.
I agree with whoever said Gilbert isn't necessarily a bust, but he DID get beaten out by an UDFA. So we surely didn't NEED him. THe jury is still to on our first rond, and it it could go to the extreme, either way.

Mike Pettine didn't bench Brian Hoyer.

Brian Hoyer benched Brian Hoyer.

His last TD pass was in the 2nd quarter against Houston.

8 INTs in what, four games?

1 TD drive in 29 possessions.

Lost 3 of 4 games.

We had 14 possessions against Indianapolis. 2 scores, 9 punts, 1 missed FG and 2 interceptions, lost by a point.

Brian Hoyer raised the bar for what to expect from the QB position and then he started playing below said bar (that he set/raised).

The coaching staff had no choice because the entire team and fan base was suffering because he stopped performing.

I'm grateful for Hoyer, that helped us win 7 games, very grateful. I like that he loves this team and is from the Cleveland area, I wanted him to become our franchise guy, but you can't regress and play your worst football of the season when the teams 6-3 and fighting for a division title. He wasn't playing "like a Brown".

Hoyer would still be starting had we been able to be Houston, Buffalo and Indianapolis.

I'm not convinced that Johnny Manziel is the guy, or ever will be the guy (not until he convinces me obviously), but Hoyer had a REAL chance, and when the games started to matter the most, he started playing his worst. For that to happen to a young player is expected, but he's in his 6th year in the NFL, you can't get that from a veteran. Brian Hoyer started playing like a backup.

pit...which QB gave the Browns the best chance to win against the Bengals?

I'll admit it...I assumed that the Browns coaching staff had been working with Manziel throughout the season, getting him read to play...I assumed that Manziel was putting in the time, on the field and in the classroom, preparing himself to takeover at QB.

Based on Manziel's performance and based on information leaking out, it doesn't look like the Browns coaching staff nor Manziel did anything extra (throughout the season), to prepare for Manziel's start against the Bengals.

Lil Johnny wants the starting job, "handed" to him and it looks like the Owner, GM and coaching staff plan to do exactly that.

Enjoy the read...


Rumor: Manziel slacked as backup?
By Josh Finney  @JoshFin on Dec 16 2014, 10:48a



It's difficult in this part of the season to separate the fact from the fiction about what is happening with Cleveland Browns players. The topic du jour yesterday centered around Manziel's work ethic and preparation, and here's why.



SI.com "Inside the Broadcast of Manziel's first start" created the controversy.

This is the article that sparked much of the outrage. In it, Deitsch relates a conversation that the broadcast crew had with Manziel prior to the game. Here's the money quote:

"I thought he gave a pretty honest answer; he said you can’t really compare my work habits to Peyton Manning or Tom Brady," Burkhardt said. "Manziel said this week he put in maximum effort, that he worked his tail off, and that hopefully it was going to show. He was pretty honest with us on the fact that he put in all this work this week and maybe not for the whole year. He came off very honest, maybe even a little naive. John [Lynch] brought up all the great quarterbacks and said they do what Johnny did this week every week."


This contradicts much of what has come from Ray Farmer and Mike Pettine to this point. The overwhelming tone coming from the Browns was that Manziel was the consummate pro, and that he was working his tail off to get better and making progress to that end. These things aren't mutually exclusive, but one must be concerned with the tangible evidence to this point.

1. Manziel struggled mechanically in the preseason to set his feet and throw with velocity downfield.

2. When exposed to more complex blitzes and coverages (even by preseason standards) it appeared that Manziel didn't know what he was looking at pre-snap and post-snap, and it caused him to hesitate, especially at Washington.

3. When thrust into the game, versus Buffalo, other Browns players indicated that Manziel didn't know the play calls and had to be helped at the line.

All is not lost, and the reality of the situation might be the wake up call that John needs to dedicate himself to the harder part of the NFL QB craft.

What do you think, Browns fans?

mm

I have to agree with that.

Pettine supported Hoyer completely, even when he played really badly for 3 or 4 weeks in a row. Finally we got down to the last few weeks, and Pettine put Manziel in at the end of a game. He was then asked who his QB was going to be going forward. He came out on Tuesday and said it was Hoyer. He then told Hoyer that he was the guy the following week as well. Unfortunately, Hoyer imploded. We cannot go for 4 or 5 games without a TD without making changes. With a struggling QB and a 1st round pick on the bench, what did anyone expect the changes to be?

I don't know how much time Manziel has put in. I have no way of knowing that. However, I do know that he was able to audible in the 1st offensive series he had this season. He was able to make sure that players were in the right spots.

I don't think that he does that if he puts in no work. He had to learn the playbook to be able to audible.

Now, whether or not he puts in the work necessary on a daily basis is really beyond our ability to know for certain. I know that he had to have put in some degree of work. He didn't get the reps in practice, obviously, as most backups do not get reps. Maybe Manziel is a guy who needs to get the ball in practice to engage his head. I don't know. He is a really young guy. He is only 22, and as he said in his video, only 4 years ago, he was playing high school football.

I have no idea what Manziel will become. I felt that he was a worthwhile risk in the draft, because I think that he has upside that borders on spectacular. However, potential means that he hasn't done it yet. Now he needs to work even harder than he ever has. Whether or not he has done so till now becomes irrelevant. What he does going forward, as the starter, is what matters now.

That's easy to answer mac. Neither QB gave us the best chance to win.

Not the rookie who started nor the veteran who had stunk it up for a month.

Obviously if Hoyer had started the Defense wouldn't have given up 200+ yards rushing...

You're probably right, because we would have had more than 3 first downs...

No I said he has mishandled the QB's on this team and that he has consistently NOT shown support to Hoyer, even when he was playing well. There is a difference I believe Hoyer will bounce back stronger then ever, none the less if Pet had done a better job of handling his players and QB's in FACT Hoyer may have pulled out of it this year and we would be PO bound. I blame Pet for that because he is to blame for that.

I also blame him for playing JF when he wasn't ready to play and worst IMO not shutting him down before he gets the kid killed, he isn't ready anyone with eyes and a bit of football in them would say the same. And I also blame him for not having JF ready, he knew and if he didn't he is an idiot.

He took our shot and thru it out the window for the unknown and I have a big problem with that, and better yet I knew he was going to do it, and I strongly suspected it would end just like it did. There is a reason why the VETS on the team supported Hoyer over JF and now we all know it too.

But worst yet he plans to continue with this nonsense. Nope Pet is on my S list and he has a lot of work to do to get off it.

You brushed off the FACT that Hoyer worked like a dawg to get back on the field and he was in FACT productive. In fact if after 16 starts JF has a 10-6 record and he hits a rough spot I KNOW that you all will be calling for support and patience Hoyer gets thrown under the Bus however by management and by some fans...

Lets put it this way if JF is 10-6 you all will be debating where your going to erect his statue but Hoyer he gets hammered by some fans as NOT being good enough, but it sure would be good enough if it were JF and I don't get that part at all??

Hoyer is the BEST QB scene around here in many moons like 20 of them, and you all can't wait to be rid of him so you can replace him with JF, like I have been saying be very careful with what you ask for..............

your right. it wouldn't have happened because our offense would have been on the field more than 19 minutes!!!!!!!!!

You lose so much credibility with statements like this. They are dripping with emotional overload and suppositions that are only in your mind.

I think at times you have something that makes sense, but it's completely ruined with your emotions.

Here's the biggest issue with Hoyer...unforced errors. He was clearly to blame on a number of bad plays. Not the OL, not the RBs, not the WRs. It was Hoyer. Terrible accuracy, terrible deep ball thrower, iffy mechanics. I will grant you that he was smart and seemed to know what he was looking at and have an idea on how he wanted to attack it. He just couldn't execute.

I don't think Hoyer is a finished product. Maybe he hit the proverbial rookie wall. Maybe his arm got tired. Maybe he just needs more experience. But he was just plain awful.

Having said that, Manziel was worse. If he doesn't improve over the next two games, I wouldn't mind signing Hoyer, making him the starter for next year, and letting Manziel continue to sit, learn, and see if he can improve.

Yep things are that bad in here.

At least that is what I get from reading this board...

Hoyer ... Tempted us with vision of a player he really wasn't , slow weak armed, not willing to run,,, bad starter bad back up... let him walk

JM.... Obviously has no desire to be a NFL QB, refuses to work, wont listen to coaches, fights drinks, chases women, cant learn a playbook... cut him

OL... no depth, no desire, Mack pfft like we said in preseason he is a dime a dozen... stupid move by FO to resign him... cut him loose. Bitonio bad pick has no talent ... another blow by the FO.. JT over rated best days behind him let JM hang out to dry last game does not want to be here.. trade him. Rest of the line... worst ever in history of nfl, need to replace all of them

JG ... did not come in. in football shape physically or mentally... should have played Madden more so he could have been ready. Not in shape bad job by the him and those coaches he could not interact with. Rest of receivers; what a waste none can run a pattern, none can catch... cut them all

Jordan...too many head injuries will never be the same player lets not waste our time.

DL... no depth, those players replacing the first string are player like second string talent... I just don't get it.

ILB.. again the second string is not as good as the injured starter same story here and Dansby.. phew what a waste will not play injured... no heart cut him.

OLB... why even waste space talking about Mingo and the rest replace them all.

Secondary -- just terrible...we have rookies playing like rookies, UDFA playing ok but that's not the issue , the issue is the ones not a good as they are, Gilbert / Desir will never amount to anything send them packing.
Safeties...I agree with preseason assessment...Whitner stinks in coverage and they never defend passes or get interceptions and the second strings... oh may... see above.

Special Teams - again why waste space from returners to kickers to cochaes... they all need to go.

Speaking of coaches... Pettine in over his head, cant control locker room, no idea how to manage a game only reason we won any games is because of luck or playing teams worse than us... but if you pay attention we are the worst team in the league so every win was luck and every loss was warranted. We should be 0-14.

FO - whiffed on every draft pick and FA signing..no idea how to build a team, acts like first year GM.. is played like a marionette by the Owner

Owner - thief, meddler, decides who we draft and play.

Ball Boy did you see how late he was last game getting ball to Ref? Where do they find these guys?

So in a nutshell we need to replace offense, defense, special teams, coaches , FO and owner. and ball boy

I would like to keep Rubin though.. I met him and have his autograph so he is good

PURPLE FONT

Texas, well said!

Your reasoning for keeping Rubes is spot on!

Man Texas, I started reading that and the further I went, the more I realized that this has to be a joke,,, good one....

Just a compilation of the things I have read over past couple of weeks... MAYBE over embellished.... but just a little.


we gotta laugh at least a little bit dont we?

fact: we have a defence that is turning into something that is championship-calibre.
I am disappointed that we let a good chance at the playoffs slip away, but brighter days are coming, and soon.

fact: Hoyer was regressing and was turning to garbage. he almost single-handedly cost is the Colts game with his INTs and missing wide-open throws that woulda been TDs, and he looked bad against Buffalo.

It's easy to say benching Hoyer was a mistake after JM played so horribly last week, but if I were Pettine I'd make that same decision again.

Not really toward anyone, but people are calling JM a bust after one game, just like Gilbert was being labelled a bust when he didn't instantly turn into a Pro Bowl CB right out of college.

I know we've been saying this for years, but we need a little more patience. It will be rewarded soon.

Could be very bad next season..Something to look forward too next season...Browns vs. AFC West and NFC West, could be looking at another 4 win season

predicting how good a conference is going to be next year is fools gold.
Teams change yearly. Our division looks great, but all they did was beat each other and the NFC south.
Either you field a good team or not, division strength should have no bearing. Good teams beat anybody.

The Brown's will always be the most horrible and terrible NFL team they show they are. How can they not be? Inexperienced FO, and Rookie HC's constantly running out Rookie phenom's on the field and never sticking with the known tried and true team building plans.

Every year we have this huge wake up call to get a veteran NFL HC and to get a veteran NFL QB to lead this team. And every year or regime change we get rookie owners, rookie HC's and more rookie QB's.

We are the NFL poster child of the blind leading the blind.

Then comes our yearly melt down and we all stand in amazement of why the Brown's always stink it up in here.

Time to fire some veterans and to add some more rookies to loose our next SB. Black Monday and Draft day 2015 are just around the corner

I'm sick of hearing people cry about how we have a terrible, inexperienced front office and coaching staff. I don't see how that's the case, in fact I think this franchise is finally heading in the right direction, let me break down what I mean.

Ray Farmer: Very solid draft. While I wish he would have drafted Sammy Watkins and Derek Carr now, overall it was a pretty good draft. Justin Gilbert showed great improvement over the last half of the season. Joel Bitonio is a pro-bowl caliber guard who should only get better with experience. Terrance West showed some flashes, as did Chris Kirksey. Pierre Desir might end up being steal, he's been great these last two weeks. Outside of the immediate draft he found Isaiha Crowell, K'Wuan Williams and Taylor Gabriel. The verdict is still out on Manziel, I'm not calling him a bust after only 5 1/2 quarters of play (though I don't have much confidence that he'll be any good). Last years draft could have been better, but it certainly wasn't bad. We have 10 picks again this year going into year two, and should only get better from a pure roster stand point.

Mike Pettine: No nonsense, straight forward, tough minded coach. He was put in a very tough spot with the Manziel and Hoyer situation and he did a pretty solid job with it I thought. It's pretty obvious that Haslam pushed Farmer to draft Manziel, this situation was FORCED on Pettine from what a lot of media outlets have reported. Hoyer won the job in training camp (despite looking terrible). Hoyer proceeded to show us what average QB play can do when everything around the position is clicking and we won seven games. Hoyer then decided he's going to start playing like a backup and effectively benched himself. I don't think Pettine dropped the ball switching to Manziel, not one bit, Hoyer stopped "playing like a Brown" with all of his poor throws and turnovers. The disconnect here is that Haslam essentially forced our front office to take Manziel (based on what I've read).

I think what stinks here is that Haslam has his hand in the cookie jar when it comes to the GM and coaching staff, he had to have applied some internal pressure to draft Manziel.

To me, our biggest issue is now getting this QB debacle fixed.

From a talent stand point, we have A LOT of young and talented players on both sides of the football, we're going into this offseason with the lowest list of needs we've had in years (RT, DL, WR#2, depth).

Fact: We've not won more than five games in a season since 2007 before entering this season, this season we've won seven games.

Fact: We've been very competitive, four of our eight losses have been by four points or less.

Fact: We've been absolutely destroyed by injuries. Alex Mack, Miles Austin, Gary Barnidge, Phil Taylor, John Hughes, Armonty Bryant, Tashaun Gipson, Karlos Dansby was out for three games, Jordan Cameron missed five games (and was hurt a lot to start the year), and then Josh Gordon had the 10 game suspension.

All things considered, Farmer and Pettine have taken this team in a very positive direction.

We now have a big hole to dig ourselves out of at the QB position though.

I couldn't agree more (well except the part about 5 1/2 quaters not being enough).

Great, well thought out post.

Thank you.