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I'm sick of hearing people cry about how we have a terrible, inexperienced front office and coaching staff. I don't see how that's the case, Sick of it or not, right now we have an inexperienced FO including the Owner, GM, HC/Staff and two QB's with less than a season between the two. A FO that can't handle the QB position, never could due to lack of experience all along. This FO, like all before them have bought into the media hype and ran out rookie QB's that wern't ready. Which now put us into the terrible position once again to..........your words.... "have a big hole to dig ourselves out of at the QB position" Meaning here comes another draft and FA cycle to force another round of bad decsion making for the role of our franchise QB. I do agree to a point with you. We've progressed in the W's Vs Loses. Farmer and the team has scouted and drafted well. If only Pettine had stuck with the plan this year I could buy into what you're saying a little more. I hope I'm wrong, but with the history of this franchise I expect an axe to fall on black Monday, atleast for the offensive side of things.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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As I said, Brian Hoyer benched himself, not the other way around.
What was Mike Pettine supposed to do? Start sending Spencer Lanning out on 1st down and just getting the punt over with?
Prior to his pass yesterday, Hoyer hadn't thrown a touchdown since the 2nd quarter of the Houston game (November 16th).
8 turnovers in 4 games with a 1-3 record.
1 TD on 29 possessions between Buffalo and Indianapolis.
Completing less than 45% of his throws.
Brian Hoyer benched himself...
It's pretty obvious that Manziel wasn't/isn't ready, I'm agreeing there, but our offense was doing NOTHING to help the rest of our team out during that final run with Hoyer.
I don't think Pettine deserves the blame for this is the point I'm trying to make here.
Last edited by MrKelso; 12/22/14 02:05 PM.
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Do you really think that you're going to convince anyone by using logic, common sense and an objective viewpoint? Homeys don't play that here. You should know this by now.... 
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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I don't think Pettine deserves the blame for this is the point I'm trying to make here. I'm pretty sure Pettine's hand was forced on this one. Leading up to Manziel's debut, he was saying things like 'I have no idea what we're going to see' and afterwards said things like 'an experienced guy wouldn't make those mistakes'...just his delivery and demeanor...I think he let his feelings be known in the most tamped way possible. He is good at dealing with the media. But Brian Hoyer didn't do him any favors. Even subpar QB play probably could've kept Manziel from being thrown to the wolves. But when your defense spots you 17 and you lose...that's not subpar QB play. That's 'what the hell do we do?' QB play. With all of that said, I go back to my earlier comments about signs of a dysfunctional organization, and it does worry me. I've been pretty high on Farmer and Pettine....not so much on Haslam. He should've learned a lesson last year, and it doesn't look like he did. This isn't a stable organization. We completely wasted the Trent Richardson trade. As long as we continue to make these low odds desperation gambles, we're not going to go anywhere. We don't have the luxury of whiffing on big picks. I don't think anyone is going to be fired any time soon (although Farmer and Pettine are Banner guys), so I hope that they all sit down this offseason and ask themselves what they did wrong.
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Farmer and Pettine are Haslam guys, not Banner guys.
I don't think the organization is dysfunctional. They are inexperienced. Owner, GM, Coach. They need to be given time to grow into their jobs. If someone wants to use the term dysfunctional, I would disagree, but the easiest way to overcome that dysfunction is to allow these guys time to do their jobs. There is no stability here at all. Did Pittsburgh panic after two 8-8 seasons? No. Did Pittsburgh panic and fire Haley when their offense was struggling? No. And they are being rewarded for that patience. We cannot keep up with the turnover.
That doesn't mean these guys are above criticism. I would grade both Pettine and Farmer as a C in their performance appraisal. Pettine would be told we haven't seen the mental toughness you said you are bringing to the team. We want to see that. And Farmer would be told to stop being cute and acting like he knows it all. Stay put in the draft, take the best player available, and stop overthinking it. Stop trying to be smarter than everyone else. If I was Farmer, I would have some feedback for Haslam ... let me do my job.
But these guys deserve some time to grow into their roles. Turnover is the worst enemy of the Cleveland Browns right now.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Farmer and Pettine are Haslam guys, not Banner guys. Banner was Pettine's biggest supporter, and implored Haslam to hire him. Farmer came out of that regime.
I don't think the organization is dysfunctional I do. I go back to the 'wreck this league' story. It makes everyone involved come off looking like complete idiots...and they went out and bragged about it. No one reigned that in? No one saw this kid wasn't ready to play? Seriously? In my opinion, one of two things happened...either that story actually happened, which is the very definition of a dysfunctional organization, or Haslam stepped in and made the call, which is also the same. I'm not calling for anyone to be fired...but this was plain as day. They took an undersized dim bulb from an Air Raid offense with no NFL skills and character issues WAY too high, and threw him in WAY too soon...the writing was on the wall the whole time. It's not like this was a shocker. And no one at any point reigned it in. You don't just destroy QB's like that. You don't just burn high picks on gambles like that. And you certainly don't let your QB coach go around and brag about it.
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Hey big guy haven't seen you since the demise of Hoyer. Hope all is good...don't have a computer at home so don't have a clue what's going on with all.
Anyways, I think you are a little harsh on Pettine with all this. Hoyer played himself out of the Starting QB and nothing else. No QB in the ineptitude history of Browns QBs who have played with us since 1999 had a 4 game run as bad as that. And the one win was one of his worst games until the next of course.
He had his shot. What I don't like was the changing of the entire Offensive scheme. I still can't figure Shanny out for that one. Except he had success with RG3 his rookie year so it must of been those brilliant plays he had??? Shanny could be a decent OC. Look at the success of back up type of QBs like Cousin and Hoyer - he doesn't try to be this genius to compete with Kelly he just takes a normal Run O with some good play action plays. When he tries to go METRO he gives us an entirely different offense. I would have liked to see JM in the same exact O Hoyer ran. Maybe more bootlegs and a possible QB draw. Not this stupid QB Sweep...that was one of the dumbest plays around. Of course never seen w/Hoyer or Cousins. But I don't know why? I liked what I saw with JM in HOYER's offense at the Bills game. Its not just JM but the entire Offensive team look like its first game of Preseason in a new O rather than week 16 or 17.
any ways, I wished Hoyer would succeed I wanted him to start next year and just grow. But he just doesn't have that Finish in him. A QB has to be accurate. Point Blank. I want Manziel to be groomed as a QB not some toy thing for Shanny to get killed.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Maybe rather than are things really that bad, the question should be were they ever really that good? Four weeks ago the media were saying the Browns were likely a playoff team and I seem to remember one ESPN guy saying they were a lock. What a difference four weeks makes.
As a Browns fan of over 30 years I was a lot more skeptical of the hype. The team’s final record will likely be 7-9 this year. That includes two wins against doormats and playing NFC South teams. Make the schedule more competitive and you are looking at 5 or 6 wins. Only an incremental improvement over last year.
Furthermore, if you look at individual performance it is even harder to make a case for significant improvement. The QB situation this year hasn't changed much from last year. It started off vastly improved, but has sunk to a depth worse than last year. Likely, five loses to end the season and the prospect of JM as the starter next year. Not an improvement as I see it. More of the same old same old. RB was supposed to be the strength of this team going into the season. They were going to use the run to set up the pass. That never happened. Maybe it was the lose of Mack, but maybe it was simply they aren't very good at running the ball. Overall, it was a small improvement over last year, but anything would have been an improvement given the non-existent running game of 2013. Wide receivers? I can't see any improvement here at all. Gordon is nowhere near the level of last year and the remaining cast of characters likely wouldn't start for any other NFL team. God, this team needs some competent wide receivers. TE, well Dray, or whatever his name is, had a good year, but Cameron spent a third of the season on the bench and other than a couple of big catches was a nonfactor. Clearly a dropoff in TE play this year. Offensive line? Don't know what to say here. Loss of Mack effected their play. But the Browns run stats and poor pass blocking at times suggests the O-line wasn't much different than last year.
Defense. Coming into the season the defense had one goal, stop the run. I believe after Sunday they are now last in the league in Run Defense. Much of that blame falls on the front seven. Injuries were a problem but depth on the D-line was supposed to be a team strength. Result, however, was a D-line that couldn't stop the run and was ineffective at pressuring the QB. A steep dropoff from last year. At LB the loss of Dansby hurt, but other than Kruger having a decent year and Robertson playing well at times the LB play was pretty much the same as last year. The DBs were the only place I saw significant improvement. Haden had a good season, Skrine was better than expected, Gibson should be in the pro bowl and Whitner did what he did best, run at the mouth. A couple of UDFAs also stepped up. Only negative was Gilbert. Can they trade this guy for a cup of Starbucks coffee in the off season? Anyway, significant improvement for the secondary.
On balance, I believe it is tough to make a case for more than minor improvement between the 2013 and 2014 Browns. So things aren't as bad as they seem in Cleveland, but then they aren't really much better either. Perhaps the good news, after a year of JM and whatever retread backup takes his place when he gets injured in 2015, this season will be remembered with nostalgia.
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Haslam is the reason Farmer is here and not in Miami.
And Banner couldn't stop gushing over Dan Quinn AFTER Pettine was hired. Haslam stepped in and put a stop to the circus that had become the interview process and went with a guy he felt good about, which was Pettine.
As for the other stuff, I think you're being a bit dramatic about it. You call it dysfunction. They were mistakes or missteps by an inexperienced staff. The real question is whether they learn from it or not. And we still don't know about Manziel. Maybe he's still here in year 3 and figures it out. Again, no matter what anyone wants to label it, and Bernie is an idiot btw, these guys should get an opportunity to keep charging ahead and finish the job the were hired to do. I know you're not advocating for a firing, but it sounds like you would be ok with it if it went down that way too. That is the absolute worst thing they could do.
I also think it's only fair to balance out the good with the bad. You had a first time head coach who played the best players on the field. He didn't give the job to Manziel until Hoyer gave him no choice. Farmer didn't pressure him to play Manziel. Haslam didn't pressure him to play Manziel. These guys all stayed in their lanes and didn't step on each other. I think that is a positive for their future growth, especially from inexperienced guys. So they did some things wrong, they did some good. Pettine won 7 games and gave us the first single digit loss season since 2007. Step in the right direction.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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well a couple of things that made this team believable.
1. We never whooped the Steelers the way we did that home game, never and the game at their house where they normally have laughers...we lost on a last second FG.
2. We never beat the Bengals at their house - and they were like 13 straight wins at home. We didn't just beat them we spanked them.
these weren't a mirage. Our QB play just went defunct. Most of the players have played well and with some very major injuries our Defense continues to play pretty darn good.
I'm so happy that we SHOULD be going into year two of a regime doing better than the last 6 seasons. Butch Davis came here and got us to play 7-9 after 2 terrible seasons and the following year we went to the playoffs. That was done with a house made of paper. This team is made on a solid foundation! Ready to go. jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I know you're not advocating for a firing, but it sounds like you would be ok with it if it went down that way too. No, I would be very upset. I like Pettine & Farmer. As I said, Haslam is my main concern. And you can't fire him. Farmer didn't pressure him to play Manziel. Haslam didn't pressure him to play Manziel. These guys all stayed in their lanes and didn't step on each other I highly doubt that. And if that is true, then it would certainly sour me on Pettine a bit. And we still don't know about Manziel. Maybe he's still here in year 3 and figures it out. LloydChristmas.gif I don't think I was being dramatic at all. We took a low-odds gamble with a very high pick. It wasn't likely to work, but if it was going to, there was a certain way that it had to go, and that way wasn't 'feed the hype and throw him in there when it was clearly evident he was nowhere close to ready'. If we don't learn from these mistakes, they are going to happen again. It's possible to damage even a good prospect, or a higher-end gamble. A QB's development is on the team to a large extent. If you don't trust that organization not to make panic moves, it lowers confidence. That 'wreck this league' story sounds like they let some DawgTalkers run our draft. It is very alarming.
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People ask what happened to our season? I think you hit it on the head eotab....
Brian Hoyer happened.
He was playing well for much of the season, and then he just plummeted.
Not having Alex Mack, Jordan Cameron and Josh Gordon much of the season hurt the offense of course, but still can't excuse that god awful four game stretch.
Even in some of our wins he had a lot of head scratching plays and had a lot of INTs dropped...
I'm a Hoyer fan, I like the guy and am grateful for what he did this year, but as I said he benched himself by playing poorly at the most critical time of the season.
Effective QB play makes everything else click and look better.
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All Pro
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I'm not disagreeing with you, but "everything else clicking" makes a QB play more effectively.
Mack's injury had a cascade effect that cannot be overstated.
Last in, first out, the sign of a true champion!![[Linked Image from i301.photobucket.com]](http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59/Stetson1376/c8f5fed9-fc01-4b87-bda3-b2b53f0b16cb_zpse708e05e.jpg)
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The logical thing to do is give Manziel the off-season, pre-season, etc etc and then a stretch of games. However, he has, IMHO, looked the WORST - and in Cleveland that bar is low - of any starting QB which irreverent list contains names like Frye, Gradkowski, Lewis and Quinn. Bar one drive against the Bills he looks like he has never played the position. I wanted to see some glimmers but man, nothing. He played skittish, uncertain and took off way too quickly. He's also not physically built to be a run 1st QB. His career won't last long unless he learns to be a pocket QB. I'm still in the camp that Hoyer hit a wall and notwithstanding any signings or draftees, he would be MY starter but given the investment - and logical thinking - Manziel must be given adequate opportunity. I still think his style will not work in the NFL because he is not robust enough as evidenced Sunday - he will miss time with getting hit as he runs. Hopefully we are sat here next year and we see Manziel has progressed and the team has progressed. Hoyer tantalised us but even when he played well, he made some bad decisions and throws which were not taken advantage of by the defenses. I just don't see a better option on our roster and I don't think even an off-season will improve Manziel enough. Apologies for the ramblings - no doubt Shaw will muddy the waters further on Sunday with a decent outing  Merry Christmas and best of health all 
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Here is an article about Teddy Bridgewater that contains a comment from Farmer about TB and JM. Many of you know that I really, really wanted for us to draft Teddy last year and I still wish that we had. The guy has done more w/less than perhaps any other QB in the league this year.
Going into the 2014 NFL Draft, everybody knew that the Minnesota Vikings were going to draft a quarterback. They had discovered that Christian Ponder wasn't the answer and that Matt Cassel was not the long term solution at the position. And there were a number of options at the position in the early portions of the draft.
There was the prototype, represented by Central Florida quarterback Blake Bortles, who had the size that teams wants from quarterbacks today and the arm to match. There was the superstar, former Heisman Trophy winner Johnny Manziel out of Texas A&M, who had put together a highlight reel a mile long. And there was a legacy guy in Fresno State quarterback Derek Carr, who was trying to step out of the shadow of his brother David, a former #1 overall draft choice.
But as the first round of the 2014 NFL Draft came to a close, the Minnesota Vikings. . .after acquiring a second first-round pick by trading back up with the Seattle Seahawks. . .didn't find themselves with any of those shiny, flashy, exciting options. No, they decided to move back up to the 32nd overall pick to draft dull, boring ol' Teddy Bridgewater.
And the crowd went mild. Well, the crowd outside of Minnesota, anyway.
After all, the only thing anybody had heard about Bridgewater was how he didn't have what it took to be a big-time National Football League quarterback. He wasn't big enough at 6'2" and 215 pounds (the same height as some guy named Aaron Rodgers, while weighing a whole ten pounds less). He didn't have a big enough arm. He wasn't accurate enough (after being second in all of college football in completion percentage while posting a TD-to-INT ratio of 31-4 in his final year at Louisville). For crying out loud, he LOOKED AWFUL AT HIS PRO DAY WHILE THROWING IN A T-SHIRT AND SHORTS WHO ON EARTH IS GOING TO WANT TO BUILD A FRANCHISE AROUND THIS FREAKING GUY ARE YOU SERIOUS!?
And just like that, a guy who had been in the conversation to be the #1 overall pick in the 2014 NFL Draft since the day the 2013 NFL Draft concluded had been downgraded to the point where he was thought by at least one pundit, Mike Mayock of the NFL Network, to be a third-round pick.
Noted Tim Tebow fanboy (and professional dolt) Skip Bayless, serving as the Flava Flav to Manziel's Chuck D, seemed incredibly displeased by the selection.
Well, ol' Skip certainly did hit the nail on the head about that whole accuracy thing. This past weekend against the Miami Dolphins, Bridgewater put up his fourth consecutive game of completing at least 70% of his passes, something that no NFL rookie had ever done before. Frankly, that's something that a whole lot of veteran quarterbacks haven't done, never mind rookies.
His 2,710 passing yards this year puts him third among rookies behind Carr (3,112) and Bortles (2,794). Impressive, considering that Bridgewater has 186 fewer attempts than Carr (who started for the Raiders from the first game of the year) and 65 fewer attempts than Bortles. He's averaging nearly a full yard/attempt more than Bortles (7.19 to 6.31) and 1.67 yards/attempt more than Carr (7.19 to 5.52). We've been over the injuries and other setbacks that Bridgewater has had to deal with so far this season ad nauseum, but it's safe to say he hasn't exactly been dealt an idea hand thus far.
Want to be more impressed with what Bridgewater is doing so far? Read this article by Cian Fahey. (Ignore the domain name on the article. . .Cian does a lot of good work for Football Outsiders as well.) The Vikings haven't "condensed" or "pared down" the playbook for Teddy Bridgewater. They didn't have to. Teddy's been playing with the full playbook since pre-season. Frankly, he should have been the starter for this team since Day 1, and he's certainly not going to have to worry about any sort of "challenge" from the likes of Matt Cassel going into next season.
Sooner rather than later, a lot of people are going to have to explain exactly why they decided to pass on Teddy "Theodore" Bridgewater in 2014. Frankly, it should probably be the subject of its own "30 for 30" on ESPN.
Dramatic voice
What if I told you. . .that, at one time, somebody thought that Johnny Manziel was a better quarterback than Teddy Bridgewater.
cut to Cleveland Browns' General Manager Ray Farmer
"Well, we did that study. . .cost us $100,000. . .told us that Bridgewater was the best quarterback in the draft. . .but you know, when a homeless guy tells you take Johnny Football, you have to do it, don't you?"
And the Minnesota Vikings didn't have to "Tank for Teddy," which was the popular mantra for most of the 2013 regular season. This simply serves to emphasize that, at all times, winning football games is infinitely more important than attempting to "play for draft position" later on in the season. That's probably why the Minnesota Vikings ended up with Bridgewater in the first place. When you go about your business the right way, things have a way of working themselves out.
(Remember, kids, "tanking" is stupid, the concept of "tanking" is stupid, and advocating "tanking" may be the stupidest thing ever. Never forget that.)
To butcher a line from a relatively famous police commissioner, Teddy Bridgewater isn't just the quarterback the Minnesota Vikings needed. . .quite frankly, he's the quarterback that the Minnesota Vikings (and their fans) deserve. And when the Minnesota Vikings play their first game in the best stadium in professional sports in 2016, Bridgewater will have reached the ripe old age of. . .23.
For the first time in about a decade, the Minnesota Vikings don't have a quarterback issue. Barring injury, they're not going to have a quarterback issue for a very, very long time. Isn't that pretty much the greatest feeling ever?
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Yeah no spilled milk from here. I am not as confident about JM but that is me being a fan. I think he will be a Super star QB.
What I am PO'd about is that I swore up and down in all the draft talk that Teddy was the OVERALL #1 pick of the 2014 draft. Actually had been saying that since after the 2012 season.
Then I let that Stupid PRO Day taint my judgment not that it mattered as I have no say anyway. I thought that for sure his hands would not be good for Cleveland/Pittsburgh/Cincinnati/Baltimore weather in the NorthEast during Nov. & Dec.
I over thunk that one work out... DOH.
Again I still like JM I don't think we made a mistake.
Vers. Only thing I will say. Do you really think that was a deciding factor for Farmer...the endorsement of a Homeless Person? Or he was just trying to be Glib.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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j/c:
I'm no QB guru, but I'll toss this one out here for consumption (try not to bite too hard, ok?):
Lots of people were sold on JM because of his 'intangibles' and his potential upside. Against other college kids, he was that dude who got picked first on the playground. Now, he a boy among men- and it really showed when he took the field. Looked like a scared, lost little kid out there- which is kind of what he is, when you think about it.
I think he left school too early. It's very rare for a 21-22 yr old to jump into The Bigs and make an instant impact. Even harder in the QB position.
Those looking to see a ton of improvement in 2015 may be setting themselves up for further disappointment. This kid's path to competence may be even longer than 2 seasons because of how young he his: not just in years, but in what's between his ears, as well.
That doesn't necessarily make him a bust right out of the gate, BUT:
if he was always considered a 'project,' folks may want to start thinking of him as a 'long term project,' just to save themselves some aggravation. If the PetFarm Crew sees him this way too, it will influence their QB decisions not just this offseason, but next, as well.
Just thinkin' out loud,
Clem
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I still don't think it was farmers decision tab.
I think the QB coach got happy feet with the owner, and haslam pulled the trigger on that one.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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I think he will be a Super star QB. As long as we're saying things that have no signs of logical evidence to back them... I think Justin Gilbert will be a first ballot Hall of Famer.
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Gilbert HOF...why would you think that.
Ask me about JM I'll tell you if I have the time.
No reason to be an insulting Smart ASS!
Just because that belies your opinion of stating how smart you are in that you knew all along he spelled bust. You want a pissing contest. Don't forget I take Furosimide....you don't have a chance...lol
Look JM is looking to become the best at what he does. Gilbert (there is a thread on it) has not shown that same desire. All wish to evaluate JM on the Bengal game. But don't take a lick at evaluating on his Bills game. Where he played a POCKET PASSING GAME not a College Spread game that somehow people think he has to play to succeed.
Look at his footwork in that game! without a new O look at him in that game where all the other players were comfortable and knew the offense and what to do. Not this new system where it was foreign to all!
I watched him is Freshman year. I watched a concerted effort to pass more from the pocket and he was very successful. Why people feel the need to get him out of the pocket behooves me.
His arm strength is not poor. He has not been relaxed for sure. No time to judge somebody unless you wish to go on record that in his career he will never be relaxed.
I've seen the Quinn's and Ponders and others fail - I don't see the well I don't have much to see to equate.
I came after the draft with the opinion the kid hits his upside and only he can prevent that by not trying his best to learn. That he would be great.
You obviously came away from the draft that the kid would be a bust. I really haven't heard why or remember reading it.
All I know is I know my football...I'll trust it. I won't talk about yours to insult you. I don't know what you do know - I just don't trust it.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Why are we the only team in the league that can't seem to find a FB??? As per Mary Kay: #browns waived FB Ray Agnew. Mary Kay Twitter Should have never gotten rid of Gray....
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Legend
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Should have never gotten rid of Gray
For me - we should have never gotten rid of Clutts. FB for the leading rusher in the NFL.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Look JM is looking to become the best at what he does. Gilbert (there is a thread on it) has not shown that same desire. This is precisely what I'm talking about. This is all buzzword nonsense, backed up by nothing. What are you even saying here outside of buzzword nonsense? Manziel has desire? What does that even mean? It's all buzzwords...as I said back in draft season, when you have to constantly rely on buzzwords when talking about a guy...'desire', 'it', 'special', 'just wins', 'cajones'...that's your first clue that you're not talking about a good pro prospect. All wish to evaluate JM on the Bengal game. I think the evaluation should go back further, and more encompassing. If the Bengal performance were some weird aberration or wildly unexpected result, then it could derive some more focus as to outliers...but this was more or less expected when you looked at things without considering the hype. But don't take a lick at evaluating on his Bills game. Where he played a POCKET PASSING GAME not a College Spread game that somehow people think he has to play to succeed.
Look at his footwork in that game! without a new O look at him in that game where all the other players were comfortable and knew the offense and what to do. Not this new system where it was foreign to all! Colt McCoy looked alright in garbage time, too. You're clinging to the Buffalo game for an argument? Seriously? I watched him is Freshman year. I watched a concerted effort to pass more from the pocket and he was very successful. Why people feel the need to get him out of the pocket behooves me. Well, if he did it freshman year, then my bad. His arm strength is not poor. He has not been relaxed for sure. No time to judge somebody unless you wish to go on record that in his career he will never be relaxed.
I've seen the Quinn's and Ponders and others fail - I don't see the well I don't have much to see to equate. It's not poor, but it's not good. He'll never be able to get good zip on the ball without having a wide lane to step into his throws. Otherwise, he has a tendency to throw ducks. That isn't a huge problem if you have the accuracy, but sadly that's another trait he lacks in. You obviously came away from the draft that the kid would be a bust. I really haven't heard why or remember reading it. [color] In addition to the accuracy and arm strength issues I mentioned, he's undersized and prone to injury, especially given his penchant for playing. Poor mechanics - he constantly threw off his back foot playing backyard football at A&M. That's not a new revelation. Everyone just chose to ignore it or automatically assumed it would correct at the next level. His game in no way shape or form translated to the NFL. There was nothing NFL-ready about him. A multi-year project. When you add all of that together, taking into consideration that he's coming out of an Air Raid offense, added with the fact that he's a dim bulb, and you have a recipe for disaster. I said then he was a guy who should go in the third or sixth round, and I stand by that. [color:#FFCC33]All I know is I know my football...I'll trust it. I won't talk about yours to insult you. I don't know what you do know - I just don't trust it. This is almost word for word what you said when your 'Mangini instilled discipline' argument got deconstructed piece-by-piece. You do know a lot about football. But you also tend to let what you want to believe seep in and become a truth in your own mind. Manziel is a great example of this. Remember when Josh Gordon got suspended for codeine, and your argument was that you believed it was just a prescription mix up because 'Josh's weed thing was in college, and people mature once they get out of college'? You tell yourself what you want to believe, and then try to craft an argument behind it. The best course of action for all of you who thought Manziel was some special prospect that was going to do great things is to let go of all of those preconceived notions. Go back and watch some Texas A&M tape, and then watch Cincy and Carolina. Pull up the picture of his shirtless mugshot and picture of his doing coke in a Vegas bathroom. Look up the soundbytes of him saying 'I'm just me, and I'm not going to change for anyone', right after his boss told him to tone it down. You'll see what I've been saying all along. He is a huge gamble of a project. He should've been redshirted and tamped down. Instead, we fed the hype and threw him in the fire.
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Dawg Talker
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Shoulda, coulda, woulda, right, Eo?
The grass is always greener when it isn't in Cleveland Brown Stadium.
Would have been nice to keep Clutts, but I thought Gray was the most athletic FB that we had through the preseason this year.
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I’m puzzled Eotab. You are certainly something of a football guru with your many posts and respected by all Browns fans. But sometimes you make observations that I don't understand.
In response to my post you said the Browns played “pretty darn good defense” this year. I checked the most recent stats and the Browns are 23rd in total defense and dead last in run defense. So your observation presents something of a statistical conundrum. You characterize the defense as “pretty good”. To quantify that in a statistical terms: Average would be a grade of C and Good perhaps a B. So let’s say Pretty Good would be a B-/C+.. Since the Browns are 23rd in team defense it follows the 22 other teams would have to be at least pretty good or better (C+ or better). Thus, only nine teams are average (C) or worse. Unless you have evidence for a non-Gaussian distribution of the data set I don't see how your observation is supported by the statistical data. The largest statistical data population should be the C group (average)and using the standard 10-20-40-20-10 data grouping the Browns are on the bottom fringe of that group at 23, but they are very close to the poor grouping (D). So statistics seems to indicate the Browns defense is below (pretty?) average to maybe even poor.
So I guess I would like to know more about how you reached your conclusion. Even through I am retired from academia I still am learning and that certainly goes for football. I played a little safety, but don't have anywhere near your vast experience. There certainly could be factors which skew the data set and if anyone would know those you certainly would. So please share your logic as it would help me better understand the Browns.
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I’m puzzled Eotab. You are certainly something of a football guru with your many posts and respected by all Browns fans. But sometimes you make observations that I don't understand.
In response to my post you said the Browns played “pretty darn good defense” this year. I checked the most recent stats and the Browns are 23rd in total defense and dead last in run defense. So your observation presents something of a statistical conundrum. You characterize the defense as “pretty good”. To quantify that in a statistical terms: Average would be a grade of C and Good perhaps a B. So let’s say Pretty Good would be a B-/C+.. Since the Browns are 23rd in team defense it follows the 22 other teams would have to be at least pretty good or better (C+ or better). Thus, only nine teams are average (C) or worse. Unless you have evidence for a non-Gaussian distribution of the data set I don't see how your observation is supported by the statistical data. The largest statistical data population should be the C group (average)and using the standard 10-20-40-20-10 data grouping the Browns are on the bottom fringe of that group at 23, but they are very close to the poor grouping (D). So statistics seems to indicate the Browns defense is below (pretty?) average to maybe even poor.
So I guess I would like to know more about how you reached your conclusion. Even through I am retired from academia I still am learning and that certainly goes for football. I played a little safety, but don't have anywhere near your vast experience. There certainly could be factors which skew the data set and if anyone would know those you certainly would. So please share your logic as it would help me better understand the Browns.
A defense being good is not a zero sum game. It could be possible that every defense in the league could give up an average of 10 yards a game and zero points. It's never going to happen but just because a team has an all world DL it doesn't preclude the rest of the league from having the same. So, just because there are a number of B-/C+ teams that doesn't mean that everyone else must either be A's or F's...
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If you just use statistics to make an analysis, you will often come to flawed conclusions.
For example...how would constant three-and-outs by the offense effect a defense's performance?
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Legend
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Don't get a headache puzzling yourself too much. Simply for me I don't look at stats as my tell all of what is going on. I do look at stats if I cannot watch and see for myself.
Our Defense in the beginning of the year was not that good and very inconsistent. But I knew and expected that as we were learning an entirely new system and philosophy. So I went in not to judge them on the beginning. Stats unfortunately takes that into effect but has not justifying the Steady progress we were making on defense. As the season went on and all starting getting on the same page and gelling. I could see it on the field of play.
We did have some key injuries but continued with the progress. The defense started to come into their own. As our Browns luck has it....that was just around the same time our Offense started going south.
We were in games now BECAUSE of the defense. I have no clue what the stats say cause we were making turnovers Scoring on defense. While the O was making their own turnovers and going 3 n outs.
We did lose more n more key players - As our losing did go on and the amazing amount of 3 n outs. With the end of Hoyer's stint and the 2 JMs...there was no other choice but to give up Stats.
So I was very happy with our overall progress of the Defense. I watched game after game that we were in games ONLY because of the D. I watched games even this last game. AS we punted again I'm like okay maybe the D can make a stop or take the ball away. Maybe even Score. It was the confidence I built with this Defense. Why even in this game an unusual call by a ref to undo another Defensive TD that could have turned the game over.
We don't route the Steelers and Bengals without playing excellent Defense. When our offense just couldn't get a first down it was the D that kept us in game.
No conundrum for me...I don't look at stats that much. I mean I'm curious at knowing some. But I never make my decisions based on stats when I watch and see. Not there to see I like stats to use my imagination interpretating them on what transpired. That was me prior to the internet and Satelite TV as a kid following the Browns - all I had was the Box Scores. No more.
Hope I answered your question or at least relieved some of the puzzlement.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Vers. Only thing I will say. Do you really think that was a deciding factor for Farmer...the endorsement of a Homeless Person? Or he was just trying to be Glib. Not Vers, but it was reported that a homeless man spoke to Haslam not too long before the draft and told him to draft Manziel: from CBS Sports. This is what Farmer is referring to. And as it has been rumored that Haslam made the call to get JFF, this almost sounds like a shot.
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Legend
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Legend
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This is what Farmer is referring to. Farmer didn't actually say that. He would've been fired if he had.
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Interesting, I don't know if I buy the premise by the Press. That of course would be awful if that is the kind of owner we got. So what's next Fire Pettine after he wins a SB and Farmer - Haslam hires his football buddy from college and then sets himself up for GM...lol
Well at least we make it to the SB first
What I don't get is that Farmer spent a lot of time on this project for the Lombardi Group. If he wasn't on board then he miss communicated his evaluations.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Hall of Famer
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So what's next Fire Pettine after he wins a SB and Farmer
wont happen. I would think they will be gone December 29th.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Legend
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Legend
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Just trying for the Jerry Jones clone thing.
If Pettine gets fired Monday. I will have to take a long long break from the Browns and renew my quest to be a multi Billionaire and buy the team from Haslam!
Oh and right now I'm a Big time Thousandaire well until I pay my Mortgage then I'm back to being an Hundrednaire!
Last edited by eotab; 12/23/14 04:06 PM.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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God, if you are correct I mistakenly failed an awful lot of students over the past 30 years who were at the bottom of my curve. I always assumed if you scored 5 out of 100 and the class average was 50/100 you hadn't learned much and needed to retake the class. Maybe this explains why the younger faculty give everyone A's and get back to their research. Glad I'm retired I am apparently totally out of tune with the times. Thanks for pointing out my flaws.
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We just signed Thigpen, I guess things are not only pretty bad but desperate!
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God, if you are correct I mistakenly failed an awful lot of students over the past 30 years who were at the bottom of my curve. I always assumed if you scored 5 out of 100 and the class average was 50/100 you hadn't learned much and needed to retake the class. Maybe this explains why the younger faculty give everyone A's and get back to their research. Glad I'm retired I am apparently totally out of tune with the times. Thanks for pointing out my flaws. I don't know why you're replying to PDR but yes, grading on a curve is idiotic. If all but one person in the class gets 5/100 and that lone person gets 10/100 you're saying they should get an "A"? Was your goal as a teacher to teach the material or "fool" your students so they didn't all get the same grade? I'm not saying your younger colleagues are not just handing out A's to lighten their load but even that would be better than failing someone who knew the material but got caught up in the desire to make everything "even". The same it true of ranking defenses in the NFL. Unless you're comparing a defense or a team against objective data like the average number of yards given up historically (or in a time period with a suitable sample size) then you're just talking about them relative to the rest of the league which may be up or down in any given year...
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God, if you are correct I mistakenly failed an awful lot of students over the past 30 years who were at the bottom of my curve. I always assumed if you scored 5 out of 100 and the class average was 50/100 you hadn't learned much and needed to retake the class. Maybe this explains why the younger faculty give everyone A's and get back to their research. Glad I'm retired I am apparently totally out of tune with the times. Thanks for pointing out my flaws. maybe it was their teacher Seriously though, did you read what PDR posted? I mean your asking people like eotab how they come to the conclusion that they do, but then you don't step away from the stats for a second to look at it from a different perspective. PDR brought up a real good point. What effect does 3 and outs from your offense have on the defense? They would get real tired wouldn't they? Wouldn't the stats be skewed? Wouldn't they be on the field more no matter what they did? How about when we lose Haden and Gilbert in the Cinci game? Does that have an affect? What happens when you have to drop 2 safeties back to prevent the big play because your corner position is depleted? I'll tell you what happens, you get ran all over, cause you can't bring a safety in to the box. How many d line have we lost? Safeties? Corners? Linebackers? How many 2nd and 3rd string guys has this coaching staff had to coach up in a hurry? Does that limit the defensive play calls? Or what about if they have an all pro somewhere thats going against your 3rd string d line? Teams exploit your weaknesses. In the beginning it was a new system and injuries. Then more and more injuries. We have played some great defensive games, and we have struggled in others. What would happen if we had say a 2-3 score lead in the 4th quarter? What does the other teams offense have to do then? They have to pass. And guess what? If your run defense sucks it don't really matter that much, because the other team doesn't have the time to run it down the field. Look at both cinci games.....One we had a lead, got pressure on Dalton. Got in his head a bit. They abandoned the run and then we get to call all sorts of defenses that take away the pass. We run it down their throats to run the clock, and its game over. Then in the 2nd game, they do just about the exact same thing to us. Except they didn't have to rattle our qb...he was already rattled being a rookie in this first start. Stats never tell the whole story... Yes we may statistically be at those numbers, but we were better than those number show.
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Well, I won't go into details, but students weren't assigned grades on the basis of a single class but a DB with thousands of data points. The data distribution is Gaussian. Otherwise, itI would not validate the grading method.
As for rating defenses the Browns are 23rd in total D this year. That means they are below the league average for the year compared to other teams. It doesn't matter whether defenses played better or worse last year. By this year's standard they are less than average. I can't ignore that and say well five years ago they were top ten, let's add that in. The question is how are they performing this year?
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Well, I won't go into details, but students weren't assigned grades on the basis of a single class but a DB with thousands of data points. The data distribution is Gaussian. Otherwise, itI would not validate the grading method.
As for rating defenses the Browns are 23rd in total D this year. That means they are below the league average for the year compared to other teams. It doesn't matter whether defenses played better or worse last year. By this year's standard they are less than average. I can't ignore that and say well five years ago they were top ten, let's add that in. The question is how are they performing this year? Where did you teach that students were assigned grades based on classes other than the one they were taking? Unless you're saying that you had a multi class curve over time? As for averages, you're correct that this year they were below average but your previous post was talking about grading them which should be an objective assignment. So yes, things in Cleveland are that bad, we're arguing about grading methods and not football. LOL
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Thanks for your reply. Your logic was excellent and it explained a lot. I can see why you have the loyal following. One observation, however, after every Browns loss I come on this board because I get few Browns games out here. There is often a common theme that the Browns lost because the refs were against them or that a key injury killed the Browns hopes. I acknowledge that penalties do cost games, but over a season it evens out for all teams I would think. As far as I know there is no evidence to support a conspiracy by the refs against Cleveland. The other is key injuries. This is a fact of life for every NFL team. The good teams deal with the problem and continue to win, the bad ones collapse. I lump these two together because to me they both engender false hope. Every year after a disappointing season we hear the, well if we had been healthy or calls had gone our way we would have been in the Super Bowl. Wait till next year. Next year comes and the same thing happens. I see more impetus for improvement if we as fans and the team say well all of those penalties are a sign of sloppy, undisciplined play and the coaches need to clean this up or they are gone And the injury problems signify a serious lack of depth that requires a lot more dilligence to the bottom of the roster, I know this is just me, but as I said when I registered I have been a Browns fan for 35 years and am dying of cancer. I would sure like to have seen some indication this team really had reestablished a winning tradition before I check out. I don't believe that blind faith that next year will be better has been working.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are things in Cleveland really
THAT bad? (Per media/fan outcry).
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