DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Secularists Erect ‘Holiday’ Exhibits in Florida, Michigan, Angering Believers

Yes I agree, the notion of human evolution and the lack of facts to back it up is half baked. Missing links, Ha! Missing facts!
But you accept this magic and teach it in the schools while preaching against other beliefs. You call for facts and you laugh at snakes talking to women but you accept monkeys becoming men. Ha!

This has to be the least self-aware post I've seen ever.

I'd say your targeting of atheist is a bit mean and tries to demean the non-beliefs of others.

That's sort of the whole complaint atheists have about religions that promise hell to non-believers.

Yes, as far as I'm concerned it's no more of a stretch than you believing that all of the material in the know universe 'exploded' into what we see now regardless of the fact that what we see is so astronomically (a word that fits in this conversation) complex but 'evolved' anyway.

Why don't you tell me which one of those are 'irrational and stupid'? Those irrational and stupid 'requirements' are what have held all civilized countries together, you live by them yourself!

Wait a minute, you started this thread poking fun at believers knowing you were picking a fight. And then you got one, a good one I might add and then you say YTown is somehow a bad christian for being a witness?

Aren't you being a 'witness' for what you don't believe?

If you didn't want what you got you shouldn't have started this thread.

It might be a self defense......or maybe a "if I ridicule enough, I'll feel better about myself" kind of thing.

PDR is at the zoo, shaking hands with a monkey, telling it to be patient because some day it will become a Steelers Fan!

This is definitely how evolution claims to work...

Our science illiteracy greatly concerns me.

Or it might just be funny to me that people think their belief in an omnipotent invisible wizard warrants merit or consideration when it comes to society.

You honestly don't see the humor in someone going on long insane rants about how they feel comfort knowing that a magic wizard is watching over their every move, and act as if this belief warrants merit in discussions about society and law?

Also, what would it be a self-defense against? Believing in God?

Witty barbs aren't really your thing.

Again, could you please cite me one link where the bridge in this gap is attributed to magic?

If there's thousands of examples, one wouldn't be hard to come up with, no?

Also, I never said I accepted it, you just assumed that. All I did was point out that you were just making things up when you claimed there are thousands of examples of people who believe that magic was the explanation as to the gap in the missing link.

I get that you're trying to draw a comparison, but one is a flawed theory. The other is a children's fairy tale.

This answer had to sit all night. I don't have time to re-read it, so I hope it's all there ......

So ... what you don't believe, and don't understand, you ridicule? You try to re-frame God as some Mr Wizard, which, of course, is easier to try to dismiss. Anything that tries to minimize the image of God and diminish His power, is all good with you.

I wonder why God is such a threat to you. (and it seems, to your entire belief structure) What is Jesus message to the world? Believe in Him, repent of your sins and accept forgiveness, forgive others who offend you, love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, love one another as yourself, and enter a relationship with God.

Wow. How horrifying. What a frightening message. I can see why it concerns you. (sarcasm)

This is probably when you would bring up the Old Testament, if we were having a face to face discussion. (if you hadn't left already) What was the purpose of the Old Testament? To reveal God's relationship with His creation, and to amplify the sin that man loosed on the world through his own actions, so that man would understand what sin is, and how he sins. It was not to condemn, but to force man's understanding. God had already painted His Law on the hearts of men, and most would recognize many of His laws as being inborn in most, if not all people. We have a conscience, that guides us away from evil, and towards good. I believe this is God's gift to us all, from those days before the Law came to man.

As far as the Laws, the laws of Moses were intended to be impossible for man to obey. Why? Because man wanted to gain redemption through his own efforts. Man was arrogant. (sounds like we haven't changed all that much in the several thousands of years since) Because of this, God put forth His Commandments, and Moses wrote the Mosaic laws. It is impossible for a person to follow those laws 100%. God wants us to desire a relationship with Him, and the people of that time wanted to be the ultimate power in their lives. (that should also sound familiar) Prior to the 10 Commandments and Mosaic law, the people worshiped God, and there was no concern over what would happen when this life ended. It was accepted (by those who would open their hearts and accept) that this life was a prelude to eternity with God. The early Jews lived with God,. They walked with God. That is what God wants. He just wants a relationship with us, to love us, and to be loved by us.

My, that is even more terrible.

The people refused to accept that God would simply forgive them, though, and they decided that their own efforts should determine their destinies. God obliged them.

That is what the Old Testament is all about. (in a nutshell) God saves, and man rebels.

There was a 400-500 year gap between the Old and New Testaments. God waited for the time to be right to send His Son to bring forgiveness (back) to the world.

That is what Jesus did. He brought forgiveness back to us. All of us ..... who will just accept it. However, just as in those earlier days, many people today have decided that they are their own god, and that if there is a paradise after this life, they will get there on their own efforts. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Many people today are still savage in many ways. We still have people who will murder others for little or no reason. We have people who steal because of opportunity, rather than need. (which I might be able to accept) People use God's name as a curse. People commit adultery. People hate one another for petty reasons. People treat money, power, or knowledge as their gods. People lie about one another. They covet that which others have. (advertising is built almost exclusively on this premise)

We still do these things, routinely, in today's world. We have advanced so much in the past 3000 years ..... yet we still have not overcome these basic flaws. Sure, some only commit one or 2 of these ..... or maybe "only" the "minor" ones .... but God gave us a really simple moral code, and yet we cannot even follow the simplest of guides. (which most people would accept as "good")

This is why God came to us, in the aspect of Himself that is Jesus, and in the mortal, human life of Jesus Christ. He came to teach us. He came to walk among us, and to love us. He came to suffer and die for us, and to defeat death, and to do so according to the terms He had laid out in His Holy Word. He would be the flawless and perfect sacrifice, according to the laws set forth for sacrifices.

What a terrible thing to believe. Oh the humanity. (which is an appropriate way to end this section, because it is because of the arrogance and sin of man that this sacrifice was necessary)


Now, as to the Ancient Aliens guy ........ I admit that I do make fun of him .... but only because everything man has ever done (according to him) is because of Alien Astronauts ..... including, I have heard him say recently, modern technologies. (like modern computers) He allows nothing of human ingenuity, instead ascribing all to some Ancient Aliens, and we merely discover these things, rather than creating them. (and I do believe that God gave us all gifts, including creativity and scientific skills, to be used, not denied)

I realize that most of this has probably fallen on deaf ears. However, in closing, I would simply ask this. What is so terrible about believing in God? Not only believing in God, but in a God who gave us free will, and who wants nothing more than to have fellowship and a relationship with us all ..... and to be the Father to us all ..... which He already is? I have never understood the hatred many have for this message, and belief. Frankly, I pray that I never will.

I wasn't trying to be witty.

Nothing is terrible about believing. What's terrible is when religion is used to usurp proven scientific factual information, prevents the basic civil rights of others, and is used in the name to kill people.

Sure, science can be twisted, too; that's just human nature. However, you can't twist facts. Religion relies primarily on faith and blind trust. Science relies on facts and theories with a base level of proof. The proof continually gets stronger and stronger. Religion relies on faith and faith alone of a manuscript translated billions times over.

It was once blasphemy to argue the earth revolved around the sun. No higher power smote us after the majority of people came around to the real idea.

Not at all. It's a fact that the greed of mankind is destroying our water, our air and the dumping of chemicals, fracking and many other factors will soon leave our planet uninhabitable. If not for a Supreme Being to intervene, the human race will ultimately destroy itself.

That's the reality of the situation. You see people kicking and screaming saying this isn't true. That global warming isn't real. Only to further their own greed and line their pockets.

Anyone has a right to believe what they wish to believe. I'm not one who sits on here and preaches at others trying to ridicule their beliefs. I leave that between YTown and PDR. If you wish to read someone demeaning the beliefs of others, please read PRD's posts in this thread.

I'm simply looking at the facts of the matter when it comes to the slow destruction of earth by mankind. If you would rather accept the demise of our planet than hope some force will save it, that's very much your prerogative. But in my estimation, those are the two choices you have.

"if they don't believe in God, they better hope there is a God"

This part suggests to me that atheists are powerless to correct any of the things you mentioned because in reality it will be only God that will save us.

It's no biggy, but it demonstrates the continual efforts to claim that anyone who doesn't believe in God will one day be sorry for it.

I don't go in for trying to convince Christians that there will be dreadful consequences for them if they follow their beliefs, but many christians have zero problem doing the same to others.

Simply put, there WON'T be "dreadful" consequences for Christians following their beliefs.

Depends what consequences and what type of Christian we're talking about, Arch. Those who kill in the name of holiness should face dire consequences of prison terms.

Those who commit murder indeed should face punishment for their crimes, Christian or not.

I don't see any reason why Christians should somehow be exempted from the laws of man .... as long as they aren't laws that go completely against a Christian's protected spiritual beliefs. A Christian should not be forced to have an abortion, for example. That would be a law that many Christians would probably be bound by conscience to disobey.

J/C

I've never understood arguments between believers and non-believers. Believers can't prove God exists and non-believers can't prove God doesn't exist. It's a senseless dance that goes around and around with neither side ultimately agreeing with each other. It's arguing for the sake of arguing, one side won't convince the other that they're right.

I don't know if there is a God or not and don't care if someone else does or doesn't believe. I'm going to live my life as well as I can and be as good of a person I can be. Mistakes will be made along the way, but that's part of being a human. If a Heaven exists, I hope I make it there when I die because I lived life as well as possible. If there isn't a Heaven, I'll die a happy man knowing, again, I lived my life as well as I could. NOBODY on Earth has the answers, so why waste your time trying to figure it out or convince others when nobody has all of the facts? It's pointless. Just be a good person and hope to make it to the show in the sky if there is one. Why can't that be good enough?

I would simply like to know where you believe that I am wrong? Don't you believe that mankind is destroying the earth and our environment? Polluting the earths water supply? Don't you believe that they are resisting and fighting every ounce of evidence brought forth to continue this greedy path?

It's a very noble idea that atheists can somehow miraculously save the planet, but mankind can't get together with a single philosophy on a global scale. Because you must understand that science and religion have one very fundamental thing in common. Good and bad.

While in the scientific community you do have scientists with very noble ideas and study on how to save the planet, curing diseases and so on, you also have scientists working to help create the next great chemical compound with carcinogens that will harm the planet. All of the wonderful things that help pollute our planet were often times the work of scientists too.

The unfortunate fact of the matter is man is driven by greed. Our entire capitalistic society promotes that very thing. It's what our country is based upon. So if you have some magic formula to change all of that I applaud you and would like to know your secret.

If God is God, and I believe Him to be, then He sets the Laws, and the rules.

I believe the Bible to be the Word if God. The Bible says that man's sin separates him from God. Forever. There is no "living good enough" to "earn" salvation from God. Man's own sin condemns him. Any sin. All sin. Sin offends God, and thus man's sinful behavior offends God. Man can never make it to heaven on his own. He needs Grace from God to make it.

The really great news is that Jesus Christ (an aspect of the eternal Trinity of God) came to earth, born into this world as a mortal child, lived a sin free life, and was given as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. We can be forgiven, if only we will accept Jesus, and ask for forgiveness. It is easy, yet some people find this to be almost impossible.

It is funny .... I was thinking about the Bible earlier today, and how some have said that it is all just some story ..... and especially how the New Testament is all fiction.

However, the Gospel, at the very least, does not present a heroic version of the Disciples. They ran away and hid when Jesus was taken. Their Faith wavered. They were unsure what to do when Jesus was killed. They were terrified. Even Peter, "The Rock", denied Jesus 3 times on the day of His crucifixion. In other words, then men who wrote the Gospel did not present themselves as some perfect, heroic example of men. In many ways, they were cowards when the pressure was on.

Why would a man admit that, in a written record that was spread throughout their own home regions? Paul was originally known as Saul, and was a man who persecuted and murdered Christians prior to his conversion on the road to Damascus. These were deeply flawed men. Wouldn't most people clean up their part in the whole affair, and embellish things so that they would be presented in their best light? I suspect that most people would. Yet the Bible shows that this did not happen. The Disciples were shown, warts and all. The only perfect person in the New testament is Jesus Christ, who is God.

Anyway, I don't know if you have read the Bible, but if not, I would recommend reading it before you dismiss it. It show us God's love for us, and His patience and continual forgiveness, despite our continual sin. It is a story of absolute love, as God became man, to sacrifice Himself on the cross for our sins, to be a perfect sacrifice, so that we may be forgiven our sins. All of them. We may be forgiven, not through our own actions, nor our own sacrifice, but rather because God chose to forgive us in a way that does not violate His law.

I hope that you will take the time to read through some of the Bible. Maybe read the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They are available online if you don't have, and don't want to invest in a Bible. The Bible will explain why being a good person "can't be enough". I invite you to read it.

I would also add one other thing. For some people, the Bible is presented as something that traps and limits man. I find it to be a liberating experience instead.

Why? If I believe, as I do, that anyone who rejects Jesus Christ is on a path towards damnation and death, why would/should I stand by and watch as they remain on that path? Why should I callously and in a completely uncaring manner stand by and watch as their mortal souls are thrown into the fire at judgment, and discarded as trash?

How could I possibly be a "good person", if I believe this to be true, yet I stand by and do nothing?

I try not to be overly pushy, but I will share my Faith if the topic arises, and I hope, every time the subject is brought up. I will also counter those who try to demean my Faith, those who try to say that my Holy book is a "fairy tale", or other such insults. I do not do so for my own edification, but rather so those people do not lead astray those who might otherwise be saved.

I am curious though ..... what do you see as the "dreadful consequences" of being a Christian?

"I believe the Bible to be the Word if God. The Bible says that man's sin separates him from God. Forever. There is no "living good enough" to "earn" salvation from God. Man's own sin condemns him. Any sin. All sin. Sin offends God, and thus man's sinful behavior offends God. Man can never make it to heaven on his own. He needs Grace from God to make it."

If sin offends Him, maybe He shouldn't have given us free will. If He knows we're imperfect, why would He be offended by sin? If we didn't sin, we'd be gods, and that's impossible. If God knew we'd all turn into sinners, why sacrifice His son for all of our future sins when they were inevitable anyway? That seems pointless. I never asked for Jesus to sacrifice himself for my sins.

I'm living my life well enough. I love my wife, treat her with the utmost respect, treat others the way I want to be treated, and try my hardest to be a quality person. Whether that's good enough to make it to Heaven or not, if it exists, remains to be seen. When I die, I'll go out happy with how I lived and that's good enough for me. If a higher being wants to judge me for not going to a building every Sunday to worship Him, so be it. Nobody on Earth, whether it's you, a priest, or a random guy walking down the sidewalk, will tell me if it's good enough or not. You or anybody else can try to "save" me, but I won't listen to it because I have already determined the kind of person I am and the kind of life I'll lead until I die. I'm HAPPY with that. I'm sure a lot of non-religious people feel like that. I want you to understand, we don't WANT to be saved or have the gospel preached to us. We're happy. If someone tells me I'm not doing a good enough job, I couldn't care less. So, your efforts to save somebody will be wasted and seen as an insult, most likely.

I've never read the Bible and never will. I think it allows me to have a broad perspective of life, the meaning of it, how to act, and what's truly important. I'm a good person because I truly believe that's the way to live, not because I'm afraid of not being good enough for God after I die. I've seen religious people who go to church every Sunday beat their wives, steal, and be miserable humans outside of church. But, if they ask for forgiveness on that day, they can continue on their merry way of being a-holes the other 6 days of the week. I don't subscribe to that idea. I'll be a good person 7 days a week, undoubtedly screwing up every once in a while on the way, because I'm invested in that kind of lifestyle because it's the right thing to do as I decided years ago. Not because I'm afraid of God, but because it's what I chose for myself and truly believe in. If it isn't good enough for God or anybody else, so be it.

Do you not see a contradiction there?

I have read limited portions of the Koran. I know enough to know that it is a work of man, not God. It mistakes the Trinity as being God, Mary, and Jesus, and says this numerous times throughout, and this is not what the Bible says.

I have read all of the Greek and Roman mythology, and find them to be fascinating stories. I have even followed a more Agnostic lifestyle, where I believed there was a God, but I wasn't sure that He was represented on earth as He would prefer.

I came back to the Bible. I returned to Christ. I didn't really do it myself. He kept calling me back, and I finally listened. I am so thankful that He didn't give up on me. I find freedom in Christ.

I see no contradiction in what I said. I am looking at the world with my eyes wide open to what's happening around me and allowing myself to dictate how I live instead of allowing ancient writings to do that for me. I find freedom in myself and the decisions with how to live.

Jc

How can God set rules when he supposedly gave us free will?

We can choose to break those laws, it doesn't mean we don't have free will.

How does God know everything when he, supposedly, gave us free will?

So what you're saying is, we don't have free will. There's supoosedly only one way go get into heaven.

Doesn't sound like free will to me.

Basically, we only think we have free will. When in "reality", God has a predetermined path already set for us. Doesn't sound like free will to me either.

The rabbit hole gets deeper.

God gave us free will. He allows us to do as we please. He also knows what we will do, but He does not dictate what we do.

I accept that it is a difficult concept.

I find that reading a lot of different perspectives helps me either change, adjust, or reinforce my own beliefs.

I am curious, have you read any religious materials at all?

No, sir.

If He knows what we will do, doesn't that mean our paths are already pre-determined? If we have no chance of changing that, it means we don't really have free will as advertised.

Ok guys, this ain't Rocket Science.

Free Will and Knowing what will happen is like a guy is standing on top of a steep mountain where he can see down all sides, to the bottom.

There is a single lane road wrapping around the mountain all the way to the top. A car is speeding down the road while another is speeding up the road.

The drivers have the Free Will to drive fast and stupid.
The guy on top can see what is going to happen.
If God is the guy, and one of the drivers prays for safety, God may intervene. Otherwise SMASH!

Going off that logic, So if God is feeling particularly trollish on any given day, then we have him letting terrorist destroy the twin towers, or witch hangings, or slavery, etc.

What an awesome person.

There's a difference between knowing and expecting.

All good, but you missed my point. Why do you say atheists should hope there's a God?

Why God?

The point is why do Christians feel a need to tell people who don't share their beliefs that they will go to hell?

Maybe you don't, but drive by several churches any day of the week and they have signs telling you just that.

It's all groovy to want to save my soul and all, but on the other hand it's very insulting to those of us who disagree.

I'm not going to hell.

Maybe you will.

I'm not.