DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?

NE Patriots can drop guys like this, and easily find guys wanting to come to NE and fill the gap.

Sadly, we do not have the same reputation and winning culture, so filling those gaps is often done with 2nd rate players, who probably aren't any better than what we drop.

This is where the vets need to step in and straighten up the locker room. As Haslam said, this behavior is an insult to them and their efforts, even more so than the 3 problem players.

Farmer made some interesting comments about Gordon before he came back, now it appears he was on to something about Josh, and the Browns clicked while he was out.
He came back and things got worse after his first game.

He truely acts like he wants out and it's rumored he does.
Gilbert...and Mazniel probably will be back but both are going to compete for playing time, but I would not be shocked if they were offered something , the Browns might be tempted to move them. I have more than a tiny hunch they want to move Gordon.
He's forgotten they gave him tons of chances and he's bit the hand that fed him.

We own the contract for Manziel and Gilbert for 3 more years. They are not making much money at this point. Manziels base next year is under 800k, Gilbert just north of 1 mil.
We own Gordons contract for one more year at a base of 1.068 mil.

I think I would sit all three down and give them the talk. But all three situations are different. For Manziel, if this crap keeps up, I would try to fleece the cowboys and send him packing if they want to overpay. If not I would sit him in bench purgatory and ruin the whole Johnny football crap because he isn't going to get the endorsements for not producing. I would financially make a significant dent in his earning power.
If Gilbert is showing he has the potential and made a couple boneheaded mistakes, I would try to save him. Having him and Haden is something we haven't had since Hanford and Minny. I hope he is anywhere near that good. But we have a couple more cheap years with him.
As for Gordon, I would put him on the market and see what it gets. He is cheap next year and probably will be gone after 2015 anyways. Or we keep him on the cheap next year and wait for him to screw up again so he can go back to sales. I would keep him on a very short leash.

We have talent on this team. However, the schedule is tougher next year with the AFC & NFC West teams.
Also, I went back through the first couple rounds of last years draft and was just sick on what we passed. The lineman, the receivers. Sickening. We just got to draft better.

Last year's 1st round was a goldmine for GMs ... OL,DL,WR,LB ... and we end up with the two worst players

I don't know if we'd be better, but we wouldn't be any worse. Of that much, I am absolutely certain.

Manziel brings absolutely nothing to the league except for hype. To paraphrase a tweet I saw yesterday: "he's RGIII wrapped in a Justin Bieber body". He's Tim Tebow with a slightly different cult following and without the "he just wins" diatribes.

Gilbert offers promise, and has flashed some. However, he has a lot of work to get to the point where he can even have his name spoken in the same sentence as Joe Haden's.

Gordon suffers - intentionally, it seems - from an acute case of cranial rectalisys. All the physical talent in the world, but when it comes to how to conduct his life, he's a complete moron with the maturity level of a puppy. He could truly be a freak in this league if he just learned how to work and how to set aside "the lifestyle", but he can't get out of his own way. He's the Ricky Williams of wide receivers, which makes him a dime-a-dozen guy. You can find a career that flames-out early just about everywhere, no need to look very hard.... it's a common story.

I'd cut bait on Manziel. Didn't like the pick in the first place so I would have no issues with the front office admitting a mistake and moving on. Gordon and Gilbert might at least be able to help us win so I'm ok with whatever they choose to do with those 2. But the team is built to win next year. Manziel is a project at best and a loser punk at worst.

I'd rather ask the question, Would this team be better if I were running it.

Well, it depends on when I would have started, They'd have Tannehil right now, he's really coming into his own down there in Miami.

Today my thinking is, they need to keep this team together, go find a ... Another... #1 tight end to carry onto the roster next season, including Dray, Barnidge, and Cameron,.

A #1 TE helps the run game. The run game starts with the TE. And a #1 TE helps the passing game. And a #1 TE doesn't push anyone of consequence off the roster.

.... ...

Trestman was fired after a 13-19 record over 2 years.

Given next years tougher schedule, Seattle, Denver, 49ers, ect, ... Do the Browns have the foresight to keep Pettine in spite of a likely 6-10 record or worse, .. meaning 6-10 would give him the same 13-19 record after 2 years that Trestman was just fired for.

Another thought. All around the AFC North, (outside of Cleveland) I find HC's Qb's and major players, and major asistants that have been on that team for 4 years or more, or almost.

When are the Browns going to get a 4 year person at ANY!!! of these. You have to build around someone.

Gordon Manziel and Gilbert. ????????


It is official, NOBODY ! - can retire a Cleveland Brown. Oh my gosh.

Last year's 1st round was a goldmine for GMs ... OL,DL,WR,LB ... and we end up with the two questionable players
........................................................

Every time Farmer or Haslam speak , I think about the above !

I think that's exactly what the vets like Dansby and Whitner and to a degree, Thomas are doing. They are stepping up and telling these guys (Manziel and Gilbert) what they need to do and calling them out for not doing it.

I'm not sure who if anyone is talking to Gordon but someone needs too.

I'm not in the camp that said, DUMP them now. I'm of the opinion that they (the Vets and coaching staff and owner) are sending a CLEAR message to these guys.

I can't tell today if the message is getting through or not. Too soon to tell given that the message was just given recently (as least publicly anyway).

Besides, you won't get diddily for any of them today.

Manziel has no real value that I can see.
Gilbert has no real value that I can see.
Gordon is a former probowler and thus has value, but that dog has fleas. I wouldn't expect to get even a second round pick for him.

So, with that, it might just be better to stick with them to see if the message that was just delivered publicly has any effect.

I have great doubts that it will work, but we've invested in these guys and we need to follow through.

for what its worth..

Manziel said that he did not throw a party-had 3 friends in from Texas and stayed out a little late and overslept and Josh was not with him at night.
And about an hour ago Manziel addressed the team below

Manziel apologized to the team, veterans, etc. "Either i'm going to learn or I'm going to be finding something else to do"

unprofessional at best...liar at worst

He has spewed this rhetoric before. I don't buy it and I doubt the Browns vets do either. I don't think he can be a leader on this team.

I missed the article or presser where that was stated as fact. Hell, I don't think I've even heard that as speculation before.



Hope that's not true... McCoy beat out Cousins in DC.

I agree with everything you've said until you got to Manziel. I can't believe you're still backing this guy. Young doesn't last forever, but stupid sure as hell can. Could you not see that Shaw was better prepared and a better quarterback than Manziel on a short week's worth of preparation! Even with a terribly weak arm (frankly, I don't know how he stays on a roster with an arm that poor) he was light years better than Manziel at playing the position.

Now I know that you're going to say it was because of Shannahan changing the playbook but he should have shown something...anything...

I believe each player is different. Gordon has been here. He has been given support and chances to do better. Yet each time he has failed to answer the bell. To me it would be fitting to show Josh the door to send a message to the rookies. It would send a precedent and show these rookies that they better shape up or they too will be shipped out.

I don't think it's wise to simply give them all the boot. While that sounds good in theory, I believe a lot of that is based more upon emotion than reality. Kicking Gordon to the curb sets a clear example and message to both Manziel and Gilbert which they can't deny.

Give the rookies one more year after they've seen first hand the consequences they will face if they don't change, then deal with the aftermath. They gave Josh those opportunities and if they don't give these rookies a little more time, I don't believe that sends a good message to anyone.

I think most peoples opinions on weather they should stay or go relate to how they feel as them as a player..

Does it suck that super talented people get more chances at life than others? Yeah but guess what.. that's life..

Manziel has an attitude, has admitted to it, and said he would do better.. and immediately didn't.. Add into the fact that a Practice Squad player looked more prepared than him.. and he looked like crap.. and getting rid of him doesn't seem like that bad of an idea...

Gilbert has shown to have some sort of attitude. But he has at least "flashed" at times unlike Manziel. And while CB is easier than QB.. it obviously takes time to learn the position in the NFL.. And back to my earlier point.. because I liked the pick.. I'm going to give him more time..

I would trade Gordon to the highest bidder at the first opportunity.. He's the most talented of the three, and one of the most talented players on the team.. But even beyond his suspensions, when I watch him play, I don't see a guy that cares.. And I'm just tired of having to worry about him being able to play, running the right routes, or giving any effort if the ball isn't perfectly placed in his hands.. or even catching it when it is..

I'm with you on Gordon but the question is, will there be a market for him? I mean other teams see the same things we do. There's always someone out there that thinks they can "fix" that sort of talent but I just don't know if they're going to give us anything for him.

Seems to be that makes it worse all around. That means these guys indpendently blew the team off, it wasn't even just poor judgement as a group...

As did I. It is way too soon to judge his transition to the NFL, and although his early play was sub-par, he did show good progress. Hopefully he gets his head on straight for we need bigger CB's than Buster (but with his heart/hustle)...

If you call a team like Oakland, or the Jets on draft day, after they missed out on say an Amari Cooper.. And offered Gordon for their 3rd.. Or maybe Gordon and a pick for their 2nd... Teams like that that are starved for offensive talent.. I doubt they won't think about it..

As much as people wanna say Gordon has "No value" he obviously does.. We just have to find it.. and make the deal and not look back..

I would tip my cap to Farmer if he could get a conditional fourth for him.

On what planet does a guy who has never completed a full season with any organization without being arrested, suspended or failing a drug test going to get you a second or third round pick?

This reminds me of when guys were throwing out the possibility of getting a second or third for Colt McCoy.

Wishful thinking not rooted in reality.

And that's the sad truth.

We don't have a legit QB

We don't have a legit NFL GM

We don't have a legit NFL HC

And we have Haslam

This mix will stink for years. Wasting a decade of Joe Thomas is what all those years will be reminded of.

Who knows what a team, who has a QB, who has the other pieces except for that WR threat, would be willing to risk on taking a chance with Josh. Let's face it, whether we trade him, keep him, whatever - whoever he is with is going to be taking a "chance" on him.

As PDR said, he's not completed an entire season... and he hasn't shown any progress on the "growing up" and maturity side. Given how we played with Gabriel, Hawkins, Benjamin and Austin in Gordon's absence and if I were Farmer... I'd be keeping my ears open and I'd have no qualms trading him. I've not given up fully on him like I did with Greg Little, but faith is so low that a small gust of wind could tip me over.


JMO

Joe Thomas' career has already been wasted long before Haslam, Farmer, and Pettine ever entered the picture.

And while you may be right about still needing a QB, can't we give Pettine and Farmer more than one year before writing them off?

Why do you think that Pettine and Farmer can't be the guys?

I bet Belichick would love to have a Josh Gordon for Brady to sling it to. The Pats have had great success with guys like him.

Please Explain???????

A common theme on this board, is that when someone likes a previous regime, and they are replaced, then everyone that follows obviously sucks and everything they do is wrong.

Mistakes are exaggerated. Successes are downplayed.

I actually have more hope left for Pettine, something like 25%. I have close to zero faith in Farmer though.

He traded up for two players in last year's draft: Manziel and West. Both have no talent and are showboat idiots. He's either incompetent or has a soft spot for that kind of combination, which, again, makes him incompetent.

The entire draft reeked of "outsmarting first year GM". Picking players from small schools and/or hyped up late season Bowl participants. I'm seriously NOT joking when saying that I fully believe that he lucked into Bitonio by throwing darts at this kind of profile. Bitonio was a "late season sleeper" from a small school who flew up boards, so he fully qualifies. If you select a handful of those, you might luck into a good one eventually that puts in the work to fulfill his upside, that's Bitonio, because on tape he wasn't that good, thus why he was a mid/late rounder before the offseason. Too bad he 's a OG and there were starting OG everywhere in the draft. Sometimes GMs make good picks with a bad philosophy, it happens. But overall, an amateurish philosophy will give you what we got overall.

West, Desir, Manziel, Gilbert were all "hype over tape" kind of players wih that "I'm smarter than all of you" written all over it.

Another issue: punting the entire 3rd day of the draft despite this being the deepest I've seen in the last 10 years. I can't give him credit for Crowell or K.Williams since those UDFA guys go where they have the best shot at sticking (usually weaker rosters). He had a 7th after burning multiple picks to get Manziel and West and gave it to Ozzie for a 6th this draft, which is much weaker at the top and depth, instead of picking Crowell or Gabriel or Williams. But you know what? He felt smart after doing it....that I can assure you

Long story short: I can't (edit) trust a guy who:

- fell for the Manziel hype (and offseason hype over season's worth of tape in general. He either didn't do the work or was easily swayed away from it, pick your poison)
- took flash over tape and consistency (Gilbert's size/speed and "playmaking" ability over Fuller)
- drafts two small, small school prospects he probably scouted off of offseason practices (West, Desir)

Too many red flags of incompetence for me to trust him

Yeah, I was a total LomBanner homer, lol

I actually was excited to have them gone and gave Farmer a chance. He disappointed in FA and crapped the bed on draft weekend...and I don't say that kind of stuff in hindsight.

I wanted him to succeed and he had a big chance with Bridgewater falling into his lap, plus a future 1st in the pocket. He failed...miserably. It was a very important draft for us, because his predecessors failed the two drafts before. A good 1st round and we're looking at probably POs, but we drafted two duds, who did nothing to help this team...in a round full of high end talent, some making AllPro and PB teams as rooks.

I hear you on this, but to be blunt here... and to do nothing more than speculate really - but I think this pick was on behalf Mr. Haslam's, or under major influence on Mr. Haslam's behalf... JF I wished would have been picked earlier so that way we would have been forced to go elsewhere.

And, for me, it's not really about how poor he's played on the field, but how much negative attention he brings off the field. It's really getting absurd. One time, okay... two times... hmmm. Three and even more - c'mon kid get your $hit together!

Justin is another story. What a joke if he's had multiple team infractions. A high round draft pick, I really can understand why Hitner said what he said as did Dansby. Who knows how many infractions that the media didn't catch wind of and maybe explains his reps being shredded to almost nothing and being slapped behind undrafted rookies, late round pick rookies and etc. Hell, if we had Chris Owens still, I think he'd have gotten more game reps than Gilbert. Horrible for a high-round pick.

Josh Gordon, it's about time to hit some sort of tipping point. About all I can say. He's been an utter disgrace and it's a wasted year for him. Can him play one FULL season without getting suspended for something?

To sum it up, would the team be better without them? Guess that would depend who they were replaced with. For the most part, probably yeah. They're not a good example for those trying to make a living playing at the highest level of football the world has to offer, like a K'uan Williams, Isiah Crowel and etc than those who weren't even drafted. I'd not be ashamed if either of them were traded. Not a single bit.

Farmer and Pettine don't sound like fools to me.

It is amazing how you down play everything that they have done, or judge them prematurely.
We drafted a qb and corner in the first. Aren't those 2 positions the hardest to transition to in the nfl?

Both Manziel and Gilbert were talked about high. You act like we drafted some no name guy in the first. Both look to be failing due to maturity issues. They both look bad, but the story isn't over yet. I think Pettine did the only thing he could with these guys. Embarrass the publicly, punish them for the stuff they did wrong, and i'm sure layout what is expected to them next year.

As for the rest of the draft, how can you say it was bad? West had some problems, and seems to have learned from them. Crow as well. Bit and Kirksey played well for rookies, and Desir looked good in the limited time he played.

How do you find fault in that? Cause they didn't pick who you wanted? And we had a ton of production from free agent rooks. You can say all you want that they had nothing to do with it, but if that's the case why isn't every team getting such good production from them?

I'm sure i just wasted my time, but you certainly have the hindsight is 20/20 thing down pat.

Unlike others, I'm not flip-flopping. I criticized Farmer for a weak FA to fill needs and bolster depth. Could and should have done more. He went into the draft with too many needs and picked accordingly and we still had no depth....as always....and as always it cost us down the stretch, ending with 5 losses after some injuries (and yes, other teams had injuries too).

I've agreed with you on most everything you've said and I'm still 100% in Farmer and Pettine's camp but come on, we missed in the first round, at least as far as players who provided an immediate impact. I'm still holding out hope for Gilbert but there were certainly quite a few other players that we could have gotten at 26 that would have made a major impact this season. I mean how would a Justin Gilbert/Kelvin Benjamin draft looked to you?

I am going to defend Dj in that he absolutely hated Banner and Lombardi, so ThatGuy, your accusation is off.

Dj, like you......I don't like what Farmer did this off-season either. We could have acquired quality ZBS guards in FA. We could have drafted Teddy and Beckham and still had Buffalo's pick. We could have done much better in round 3 and 4.

But, w/that said............it is one year. Way too early to give up on them. I think he did some good things, too. He got rid of a cancer in Ward. He upgraded w/Dansby and Whit. He got good players in Crowell, Bitonio, and Williams. He got rid of Weeden. Ooopps...sorry about that one.

I think continuity is important and that we should give this guy a chance before we write him off. We are all sick of losing and I find it amazing that we can't even luck out once in awhile.

Seriously.......I wanted Teddy. Guys like Mourg and Steve wanted Carr. We argued like crazy. Truth be told, we would be way better off w/either guy than Manziel. And what is crazy is that a bunch of us like the two I mentioned, Toad, tab, and others had Manziel rated number two. Most of us did say he was a boom or bust guy, but we either had him ahead of Teddy or Carr. It just sucks how things always work out for the Browns.

It seemed to me, whomever was drafting for us or forcing the hand for drafting purposes...really seemed to panic...I don't think any of us had mocked us picking a corner in the top 10...I think they saw "well the CBs will be off the board at 1B...so lets pick one now" And I remember Gilbert was mostly viewed as the best corner in the draft...but his stock went down from the combine to the draft, he had no buzz...which to me sounds like he was red flagged in interviews...I noticed Gilbert seemed to a better hybrid (CB/Returner) than pure CB...superb return skills seemed to bump him up fairly well.

I shook my head when we took Manziel over Bridgewater...I loved Bridgewaters ability to stay firm in the pocket and throw the ball even with defenders closing on him...his awareness seemed strides better Johnny...I mentioned prior to the draft that Manzie...took perfect standing plays and would break the play by himself, causing hysteria which works in college but not in the pros...I know he had no chance with stronger, faster, more advanced and disciplined defenses...He reminded me more of Michael Bishop than someone who was gunna damage the league...

Bitonio..was hearing a lot about him late in round 1 as a RT...cant say I hated it, but did want a WR initially...was a very good pick by our FO...he looks to be very good-elite...

Somebody really turned me to RB McKinnon...I literally drooled when watching his tape and combine...I think we may have really wanted him, then Minny grabbed him...we set in panic mood...and traded up for T. West...He seemed a tad slow even in a horrible division of play...Played pretty decent for a rookie...his fumbles and attitude are concerning...both will get you out of the league fast.

I saw Christian Kirkseys tape while looking at Christian Jones tapes...Kirksey was really active, and actually would line up and cover Wrs too...he was all over the field...however would be thrown around rather easy too...he seemed to get into blockers heads with his constant pursuit...I never imagined him as a 3-4 backer...so didn't see us picking him...however I think he played the pass very well this year.

I will admit for 3 years on these boards now Ive been advocating for taller bigger CBs to match up with the bigger dominating WRS that have been tearing up the NFL...we drafted Desir (I never saw him play in honesty, never really heard of him) I was actually really cool with grabbing corners with 6'0+ frames...was basically a redshirt year from Desir...


If the light comes on for Gilbert...we have a superb duo at CB...ok at worst we have Justin Miller...a dime corner whom was severely overdrafted on his return skills...at worse let him be our returner and backup corner
Not a big fan of Manziel...but we gave Weeden 2 years as our QB...7 quarters for Manziel...I don't want to give up on him that quick...

In all honesty...I think coaches told Manziel he will be redshirting this year all along...so he thought he didn't need to learn this playbook this year and could take a year off...he slacked off big time, did what he wanted...and in those 7 quarters it showed he was behind in his learning and translation...(to be fair all Qbs at the end of the year had to deal with our WRS dropping some easy balls, A horrid interior line play, and an exhausted defense) I believe Manziel will be better than what we saw...but I believe his size greatly hinders his vision for throws and I don't see him being a pocket QB that sets his feet and throws...he abandons plays and runs like a kid at recess far too often...

Not quite true. I had us picking Gilbert, but at #9. I believe one other of us had the call correct as well...

We'll revisit this comment after 2 more seasons and see how premature this was...