Is this triumvirate of idiocy and entitlement worth keeping around for potential contributions? I for one am sick of waiting and hoping for a player to get his head on straight. I'd have more respect for the coaches and FO if they sh!tcan these bums. Not one of these clowns has contributed anything positive to this team this entire season, and all we have is their word that they have learned a lesson and will work harder. Then, after giving us their word, they pull this crap. IMO, the negative effect on the rest of the team outweighs any benefits these clowns MIGHT bring to the table IF they somehow completely change their mindset and work ethic.

If "I" were the coach, they'd all be gone yesterday. Granted, I'm old school and would much rather lose with guys who are smart, disciplined and do the right things than win with guys who are arrogant, undisciplined idiots. But that's just me.

Hard for a pro organisation where literally hundreds of coaches and scouts and jobs are on the line based on wins/losses to make that same call.

We shall see.

Without.

Get rid of all of them.

Can't have these type of cancers in the locker room.

It might be one thing if they were competitors in addition to being knuckleheads, but I don't think Manziel or Gilbert really want to play.

And their actions show that. And they are competely disrespecting the authority on this team with their antics.

It's sad in so many levels. So tired of this crap.

What about the guys who brought these players into town ?

I don't think taxi drivers should lose their jobs.

Gordon will be gone. Manziel should be gone. Gilbert may be salvageable without the influence of the other two.

More concerning is that Farmer's 1st round draft is looking worse than the Weeden and Richardson draft. It was hard to imagine that was possible. I have zero confidence at this moment there is hope for for success with next years two 1st round picks.

I'm not sure what I would do, but this is an atrocious end to the season.

I guess I'd dump Manziel ASAP ... he'll never be an NFL QB

I'd trade Gordon ... he's either a lost cause OR trying to get out of CLE

I'd give Gilbert an offseason to prove something

I think he meant the homeless guy that told Haslam to take Manziel.

Yeah doesn't speak too well to the homework we did (or didn't do) regarding the mental toughness, intelligence and intestinal fortitude of the guys we scouted does it?

It takes more than looking at the college stat sheet and the combine #s to make a good NFL player.

Pettine is in a horrible situation but Haslam should go ahead and fire Farmer and Pettine is in risk of being canned as well by not having his team under control. I like Pettine and hope he stays but Haslam may look to can him, team collapsed down the stretch and he has no control over this team.

Getting rid of 2 first rounders and your only real offensive weapon, just isnt gonna happen although it probably should. I would not be shocked to see Harbaugh in here sadly.

Well this should be fun......

mike freemanVerified account
‏@mikefreemanNFL
Browns veteran player texted to me he'd give me his thoughts on Manziel later this week. Wanted to "calm down first."
Oh boy.

Link

I think Haslam is more of a problem than Farmer and Pettine. There were reports earlier today that the Browns tried to trade Gordon last year and Haslam vetoed each offer. All indications point that he forced Farmer's hand into drafting Manziel.

The team problems start at the top and roll down hill. Firing Pettine and Farmer would create even more instability and do nothing to resolve the problems a meddling owner creates. Petting and Farmer need to be given time. This year's train wreck should be a lesson learned for all, most of all Haslam.

We don't know if we are better without them yet.

We don't know anything right now. Does it look good so far? Absolutely not.

However, Gilbert hasn't had enough PT to say he's the reason we lost games.
Manziel isn't the reason Hoyer started slumping.
Gordon can't be blamed for HOYER acting like a teenager with a new car when he came back from suspension.

However, they are a bunch of knuckleheads. But they are young as hell.

As much as I want them to act responsibly, like other young players have shown, I have to remind myself that if I was 20-22 and got millions in the back, no wife no kids, there's no telling WHAT my mentality would be.

And none of us on this board knows either. That's the biggest problem as well, some of us have this high horse on this situation like we know what they are going through. We don't.

Manziel, seems like he's been a snotty rich kid his entire life. Hard to change.
Gilbert snd Gordon, don't know their background but if it's the typical story, they went from growing up broke to millions in the bank.

I'm not defending their actions, as Gordon specifically has had more than enough chances. But to me next season will not only tell what these three guys mentality is, but how good our coaches actually are.

Good coaches know how to reel in troubled players. They do it all the time, every year.

But these guys have serious talent. Our team can't afford to just give up on talent. We aren't good enough to. We aren't the patriots, we aren't the steelers. We need everything we can get right now.

So if I was the coach, or GM, I wouldn't cut them, and with the right angle the coaches can reel these guys in.

I rather have divas that can help us win, then care bears on the squad, and we win the "moral code" award and continue going 5-11, 4-12 every year.

I don't know the answer to that one, but it's a good question.

All I do know is that the ending of this season is very depressing. I was so jacked for awhile. After the Atlanta game, I was sending out group text messages to people about the Browns being back..........and now I am saying they are back to their usual ways.

Man, it's like this season couldn't have ended any worse. Meanwhile, the Steelers and Bengals are in the playoffs and the Rats might make it, too.

Sadly this season ending FUBAR has brought a sense of relief to me.I had envisioned this organization finally turning a corner and being,you know professional.
That doesn't appear to be the case.I'm back in that oh so familiar territory of "Good God what will the Browns screw up next".And that's good,I don't know if I have the desire or energy to actually give a crap and view this bunch of dysfunctional losers as serious individuals deserving of respect.
I'd dump all 3 of these knuckleheads,and Farmer with them.
I will ask all of you that if you see me again being positive about this cast of thieves.dopers and slackers,that you reach thru the internet and smack with a sledgehammer.

I hear you, but these particular divas have not helped us win.

I'll tell you whose opinion I want of Johnny Finger. One Joe Thomas. I bet behind closed doors THAT post-season discussion would be priceless

You know, as bad as Hoyer was playing (and it was bad) there was one guy who said not to make the switch to Mr. Jamboogie because it would signal to the whole team that the coaches had given up on the team and the season. The players all knew the kind of guy, ego, lack of knowledge of playbook, not putting in extra time, lack of preparation that Manziel was...thus why they felt that way.

And sadly, just as one well respected vet on this team warned, as soon as the switch was made, the team has packed it in. Their play on the field shows it and so does all this mess of garbage off the field being late for meetings, out partying etc. It reeks of a group of individuals who decided it was time for Christmas and the off-season and football was pretty much an afterthought.

Hate to say it but we were warned.

Gordon helped the Atlanta game.

Gilbert had a pick six on that monumental defensive effort against the colts.

The only one who hasn't is Manziel. But even you said we can't know what we have wih him with only a game and some change played.

Right now it's all speculation, for the fans and the coaches.

...and people said Mangini was crazy for wanting high character guys.

I have to agree with that and apologize to one Mr. Joe Thomas, who I chastised for the statement.

Simply put he he has his pulse of the team and the comment was very damning toward Manziel. It was just hard to see how much was beneath the surface.

Shame on Pettine for playing Manziel. He had to know.

The ending was depressing for sure, but the light at the end of the tunnel looks brighter (and not a train ). We'll be 7/9 or 8/8 - we showed vast improvement, come from behind wins, on the road division wins. Just like other team, we fought bad calls, injuries, bad games and the like - but dang - week 15 we were still talking playoff and legitimately!

We ask our players to commit to the team and now the team has a chance to commit to the players. Keep all 3 - IMHO - work on development and the character side. Build clubhouse leadership that holds these guys together and focused and disciplined.

Getting rid of 'problems' and starting over has killed us in the short term. It's like we couldn't handle the success - so maybe we just need to learn how to live in our new raised expectations - and that is a sign of the new Browns! IMO.

J/C....

Browns' frustrations over Josh Gordon, Johnny Manziel growing
December 28, 2014 9:30 am ET

Josh Gordon's days with the Browns appear to be numbered. (USATSI)
Josh Gordon's days with the Browns appear to be numbered. (USATSI)
The Browns suspended former star receiver Josh Gordon for today's season finale after he missed a walk-through Saturday, while first-round quarterback Johnny Manziel was fined for being late for treatment after throwing a big party Friday night attended by many members of the club. It's just the latest puzzling decision by both players who suffered, in essence, lost seasons after the Browns entered the season with hopes they might be able to lead the offense.

Gordon will file a grievance with the team, sources said, on the suspension, which, as it takes away what would have been his sixth game on the roster, precludes him from obtaining an accrued season toward free agency.

Gordon was viewed as a perpetual problem by the Browns former regime, who tried repeatedly to trade him last season only to be vetoed by ownership, sources said. He struggled to integrate to the team despite the Browns spending considerable resources to try to guide him, he was habitually late to meetings and practices, and that behavior has continued in head coach Mike Pettine's rookie season at the helm, sources said.

Gordon “has to go,” according to several members of the organization, with his drug suspensions and lax behavior a growing problem and something they are concerned could rub off on young players on the roster. Of course, it remains to be seen if Browns owner Jimmy Haslam will be willing to take reduced compensation for the diminishing asset, after being enthralled by Gordon's breakthrough 2012 campaign.

Gordon has superior athletic talent but is a failed drug test away from having his career back in jeopardy and with another long offseason looming, expect the Browns to try to reap whatever little compensation they can get for him and move on.

The pairing of him and Manziel -- whose nighttime activities and work habits and practice performances continue to worry the organization -- is particularly troublesome, and the timing of Manziel's party, and subsequent tardiness of certain players Saturday has not gone unnoticed in Cleveland. Gordon's poor practice habits have been bad for the team, the Browns have actually decreased offensively since he returned from suspension and his performance in games has been suspect as well.

Manziel was also not present for Saturday's walk-through. The Browns had to send security personnel to Manziel's house on Saturday to try to locate him when he was absent from the building, according to a source with knowledge of the situation. While it's not unusual to be absent given that he was placed on IR this week with a hamstring injury, considering Manziel's missteps in college and since entering the league, his own vow to take his job more seriously and his stated desire to be the starting quarterback next season, some on the team thought he might be around for the walk-through session.

There is also mounting frustration with the steep learning curve and maturity level from Justin Gilbert, the team's top first-round pick, who has failed to develop as expected and whose reputation has sunk within the organization.

Article


It appears Bernie and Joe Thomas knew what they were talking about. Back to the drawing board.

If such a thing as purgatory existed, being a Browns fan is it.

Their actions certainly suck, but they are still under contract. Barring huge problems behind the scenes, I would think they will be told they need to grow up and get their heads in the game.

Come next year during ota's and training camp, that would be when you either trade them or cut bait in lieu of a better harder working player.

I thought Gilbert was showing improvement on Sunday's, Gordon was worth the shot in the supplemental draft but is a liability now, and Manziel could develop just not as a QB.

How Gilbert turns out and how Buffalo's pick is used will pretty much determine IF Farmer's draft is salvageable. SMH

I guess I am just another reactionary fan who would run the team like George Steinbrenner. I wasted Manziel to start; now I want him gone. I was so excited to get Gordon back, and I made excuses for him. Now I want him out, too. They ought to send Joe Thomas, Whitner and Dansby to interview prospects at the combine. Those guys would see right through the idiots and we would never have to worry about some moron throwing a party on Friday night before we try to go 8-8.
I don't think Gordon or Manziel are ever going to get it. Gilbert might, but it would help him if we showed way happens to idiots that hurt the team. Trade them, cut them, I don't care. Get them out of here.

The coaching staff can not be happy about the conduct of Gordon and Manziel. Gilbert may develop with some good coaching.

The question is, will the owner and GM be on the same page as the coaches?

This is the 2nd time I've seen this . The guy can't even out-run DE or MLB, let alone a DB and you expect him to put in the work to learn a new position?

I've got some land for ya....

The idea of Manziel playing a noter position is just silly. He doesn't have the work ethic to play the position he's been playing. How can here-invent himself. I say either cut him, or make plans for next season with him here as the second or third string guy.

J/C...

On a side note, resigning Buster Skrine just became a huge priority.

skrine was always a priority signing.

That's why I put in the "huge" for emphasis!

I want to know who these sources are. Gordon failed the test last year and the team supposedly knew about it for months before it was leaked shortly before the draft so what team was gonna trade for a player looking at a long suspension? And is it even allowable?

+ 1

P.S. Excellent word, jfanent!

Triumvirate:

(in ancient Rome) a group of three men holding power, in particular ( the First Triumvirate ) the unofficial coalition of Julius Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus in 60 BC and ( the Second Triumvirate ) a coalition formed by Antony, Lepidus, and Octavian in 43 BC.

a group of three powerful or notable people or things existing in relation to each other.
"a triumvirate of three former executive vice presidents"

2. the office of triumvir in ancient Rome.

Here are my thoughts .... now that I have had a couple of seconds to think about things.

I get rid of Gordon. There is no way he is on this team next year.

I sit down with both Manziel and Gilbert after this game today. I let them both know, in no uncertain teams, that any more of the BS and they are out the door. Period. They each have no strikes left. This is a team, not a babysitting service. If they want to continue to screw around, then they will be unemployed really quickly.

I then shop all 3 around this off-season and see what I can get for them.

As I see it, Pettine is a horrible personnel manager. These are kids, if a coach can't manage them, then he isn't doing his job. It's like it never occurred to him that Manzel came in with national hype and Gordon was the darling of the organization and that he was a no name coach with no experience. They may be kids but they need someone to look up to. It seems he never made any attempt to reach out to them. It doesn't seem to be in his personality. Didn't Hoyer say something about feeling like he wasn't a part of the team when he passed Pettine in the halls during rehab? Haslam needs to bring in another FO guy to manage football operations and work with Farmer to make most/all personnel decisions. Limit Pettine to coaching. Pettine also needs to work on his personality, he doesn't come across as a warm and friendly guy. You have to get the respect of the players and if you are a head coach with little experience then that means the kids need to like you and want to play for you.

This isn't little Jimmy's weekend soccer league where everybody gets a ribbon for participation. For the love of God. Nobody in this league is a "kid". If they are, they don't belong here.

Hell of a job by Pettine to get these kids to come out and play this hard when they had nothing to play for and all the Manziel, Gilbert and and Gordon stuff.

Listen to his pressers before the Cincy game.

He knew.

I read / heard the pressers.

But its hard to tell how deep below the surface it goes though before the fact.

Yeah in hindsight it's easy to see how bad it is now.

Jc

Man, the news is all over front page on yahoo and other sites.

Our two rookies and Gordon just made us a complete joke.... Again.

We got all the negative speculation with drafting Manziel, and none of the good.

I was telling everyone way before hindsight that Manziel would bomb like the Hindenburg.

No translatable NFL skills + moron = disaster

I know. You keep reminding us. In every post. In every thread. Would you like a statue? Or maybe we can dedicate a thread to you? Or maybe I can change my sig to honor you?

Pick your award. You've earned it.

How long did you spend telling me that I 'just didn't like' Manziel (with arrogance, I might add)?

How about just that long?

How many times has crap like this happened in the past decade and we never heard a word about it? I bet this isn't the 1st year that Gordon acted like a moron. We have heard rumblings of stuff in the past, and the coaches said stuff like "We just handle all of that stuff in house". Well, maybe some of these guys need a little public exposure.

I go back to a guy like Bill Parcells. He would never put up with crap like this. He would have veterans call out players, or he would call them out himself. (Remember him calling Terry Glenn "She"?)

I think that veterans are fine with this stuff. In fact, a lot of the veterans have been around a while, and they want to win. If there is a guy who is keeping them from winning, especially because he just doesn't seem to give a damn, then they want his butt benched. (or gone)

Pettine was not perfect this year, but this team never gave up. I think that players know that they have to be accountable, or they will have their butts sat down. They also know that draft status means nothing for playing time. I think that a solid foundation has been set, and they will build on it from here.

Read the original question and skippid every post to reply because I have no need for input from others on this - yes, they'd be better off.

Trade them, cut them - don't care. Don't care what is invested in them or the level of egg on the faces of those who selected them.

GET ALL THREE OUT OF CLEVELAND.

If they ACTUALLY had any added value they'd make us a joke. Being two totally and one nearly irrelevant players make this laughable.

If it weren't this the media would find something.

We have to think about this from an economic standpoint.

Gordon has made it easy for us to delay the decision. But he's also a disgusting example of entitlement and stupidity. I say you bury him on the roster. Bring in receivers who can play and build the group as though Gordon doesn't exist. He'll more than likely blow himself up anyway. Don't waste any more resources on him and see what happens. But I'm done with him.

Same with Manziel. He's been full of crap and totally defiant. He's now your 3rd string QB. BURY him on the roster and see what he does. This kid has "suspension" written all over him with the way he conducts himself. And his BS sincerity is ALWAYS contradicted by what he does. He's a salesman, pure and simple.

Gilbert is just stupid. We have him for 4 years and he'll live as a 4th or 5th corner until he changes. I don't believe that he will. He's a punk, same as the other 2.

Reality is, we blew it with all three and not a single one of them isn't worth what we spent for them. Not that getting value for them would change anything. These guys can't manage high picks anyway.

I'm furious at the 3 stooges. It's not enough this franchise is the butt end of every league joke, year in and year out,but now they've made me want to hide in a closet for a few weeks. I wouldn't care at all if they were cut tomorrow.

I'd say we'd be better off without them. I was not a fan of the Johnny pick to begin with. He's TINY and a run first QB. BAD combination. And trading down to get Gilbert when we desperately needed a WR really stumped me too. But as long as Gilbert turned out to be a stud corner I could live with it. Now it turns out he is perhaps a bigger head case than Johnny? NOT good. Missing on two first round picks in the same draft is death to a franchise. Are we supposed to hope Farmer gets it right this year with two more firsts? Then we have West and his off field crap. Costing him games where they had to sit him.... Two firsts and a third, all head cases. This isn't good.

Not sure what we can do about it either.

I'd trade them all for a third.

One cancer in the locker room is bad enough, but three means you bring out the knife and cut.

I think you're right. That none of them are worth what we gave for them. But this bodes the question? If Farmer blew BOTH of his first round pick last year. And West has shown he's got an attitude problem as well... do we keep Farmer as GM? If he blew two firsts last year, why would we believe he won't blow both first round picks this season?

Then don't you cut out the guy that drafted them too?

Gilbert isn't a cancer. He's just an idiot.

Gordon and manziel are cancers and contribute to the most ridiculous locker-room culture I can remember here.

I think that Whitner, Dansby and Haden can control the idiot and without the influence of the other two jerks, may have a chance.

It's a roll of the dice. There weren't a lot of people out there that didn't believe the line of B.S. Manziel spewed out when he said he was going to out-work his Johnny Football persona. I know I bought it.

I think that Farmer blew the picks but I can see what he was thinking. High reward, high risk. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. And you look especially stupid when it doesn't.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense to trade Gordon and even less sense to flat out release him...and I don't think we will.

1. At this point in time, we won't get a high pick. He clearly has issues and other teams will leverage that in trade talks and his current drug status with the NFL.

2. His on the field talent outweighs mid-to-low draft picks in return. You can be pissed at him all you want and pray he is gone but the talent outweighs current market value.

3. The FO just possibly added another year of "ownership" of Gordon by suspending him.

4. His contract is so minimal at this point, it does you no wrong holding onto him. Not sure about his 2015 contract, but spottrac lists 2014 at 950,000 and 2015 at $1.7M. Not sure what contract Gordon will be held to in 2015 if the year gets bumped back, but either way it is chump change.

5. You've seen his talent in 2013. It's there and not like the "what if" of Manziel and Gilbert to compare the other two in the title of this thread.

In the end, I just think the minimal risk to hold onto Gordon is worth it. He's not worth much on the open market due to issues and he's not worth much on the balance sheet in Berea either.

There were reports that Farmer wanted to trade Gordon at the draft last year, and had a decent trade in place for him, but Haslam did not want to let Gordon go for less than he thought he was worth. Well, I don't think there will be that debate this time around.

I have had the feeling all along the JM is gonna do the opposite of anything he is asked to do. He is like one of those kids in school who played pranks on folks just to see if he could piss them off. He gets off on it.
The other uncool kids around him thinks it is funny too the "followers". I say dump JM. Send Gordon to the practice squad until he learns to show up and practice better than the guys who do not see the field and show up every day. And those practice players need to come at him with bad intentions. Gilbert needs to beat someone out. If he does not this off season. Cut him. Next man up. Tired of these prima-donna players who have not shown anything when it matters. OH and Farmer?....IT IS THE O-LINE STUPID!

I see no way we don't hang on to Manziel, and Gilbert hasn't been disruptive to the team environment like the other two have. Gordon is gone and we will get a mid to low pick for him......really wish we would have dumped him last year for a 2nd.

The rookies have a chance to mature....Gordon isn't a rookie anymore and is still the biggest cancer. You can cut Gordon and send a message to the rookids (as well as the vets these 3 have pissed off). I'll be shocked if he's here past the draft.

Not sure Gordon is eligible for the practice squad.

Bottom line for me though, is that Gordon will be looking at the business end of a lifetime ban in a few months regardless. He hasn't had a year of football that he didn't screw up somehow.

That guy is finished and there isn't a GM in the league that doesn't know it. The offers would be somewhere in the 6th or 7th round for that guy. And that's about fair.

I honestly can't remember a bigger jerk. Maybe Andre Rison?

Gordon is not eligible for the practice squad, and he wouldn't go there anyway. He would become a free agent, and someone else would sign him up on a flyer.

So you cannot bust players down to the practice squad? No wonder these guys think they are untouchable.

You can still sit a guy, and make him inactive for games.

Gordon will not be a player in the NFL.

He will not make it through another year clean and that will spark a mandatory lifetime ban. And none of this will matter.

I am nearly 100% certain of this.

I take a 6th for Gordon and turn it into a top kicker.
A gain in my book.

I am willing to shop them, trade them, or cut them. A llittle poison in the waterhole goes a long way. How often do you let the same people cut your throat? Too often.

I haven't read this thread but I'm going to go No, No, No.

Gordon is a talent - I'd prefer we trade him for value, but he is a legit top 15 guy.

Manziel seems to be unawares that this is not college. His un-preparedness (is that a word?) this year is alarming and disrespectful to the franchise and his team mates.

Gilbert has got better. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I'd prefer Manziel and the circus gone. If he played like the hype, I'd be swooning. Shaw looked like Manziel today, albeit more prepared.

Cut Manziel - he has no trade value, get what you can for Gordon in a trade - or cut him if you get no takers, and put Gilbert on strict notice that he's out of mulligans.

Dallas owner Jerry Jones makes no bones about how much he covets JM he would anti up a good trade if offered

Better without Gordon, to early to tell about Manziel/Gilbert. They still may grow up. If JM doesn't grow up soon, not only will he be off the Browns, he will be out of the NFL. So will Gilbert.

The best chance for getting anything for this kid, in my opinion as well.

I'd take a 3rd in a heartbeat.

With all due respect Rev, that was before anyone saw him play.

I think those of us who want to cut Manziel need to remember his age and the fact that he did some amazing things in college.

If he was declarin eligible he'd be in the conversation with Winston, Mariota, etc coming out now.

I think he needs to decide that he wants to be great. If he doesn't, that's cool, just go do something else.

It also proves that for the most mature, savvy, important decision making position, you draft rookies to fill that hole. Doesn't happen in any other sport or industry lol

Get rid of Manziel and Gordon. Once those two are gone I think Haden and Skrine can possibly help turn Gilbert around.

Gilbert is stupid but JFF and Gordon are just bad influences and clearly do not care about anybody except themselves.

With Gilbert remember he had a superb combine...yet he absolutely ZERO buzz after the combine to the draft...I'm thinking scouts found something...and obviously we overlooked it...I never thought wed take a corner #8 overall...then again with this team nothing surprises me..

Manziel was the wildcard QB in the draft...I told people that Manziel gives up on plays far top often and free lanced...and he would get killed with the faster, smarter, stronger, disciplined NFL defenses...noted he isn't fast nor big enough...

That being said..Manziel played what 7 quarters of football...far too early to calling him off...he still has a pretty high trade value...if the team decides to go that route..

Gordon I'd trade him away..been wanting it for years...not sure of his value...maybe like Tampa with Mike Williams so like a 5th...maybe a 3rd...

Gordon will not be back, will be traded or let go.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/12/28/7...n-irresponsible

Quarterback Johnny Manziel's future with the Cleveland Browns was reportedly in doubt on Sunday after he hosted a Friday night house party that may have led to the rookie and wide receiver Josh Gordon being late to team events on Saturday. After Cleveland's 20-10 loss to Baltimore on Sunday, Browns owner Jimmy Haslam had harsh words for Manziel, even without mentioning the quarterback directly:



Follow

#Browns owner Jimmy Haslam said team will work w/young guys who messed up, but if they can't grow up & be responsible, they won't be w/team.

#browns owner Haslam said "clearly qB is important and we've got to figure it out"

#Browns LT Joe Thomas on Josh Gordon, Johnny Manziel, Justin Gilbert being punished: "It's part of the #NFL. Everyone has bad apples."


Haslam: This is ultimate team game & players who can't show up 4 meetings, can't make practice & weight lifting "disrespect" team, coaches


#Browns owner Jimmy Haslam said if those guys can't grow up & be responsible to team & fans, "then they won't be with the Cleveland Browns."

#Browns owner Jimmy Haslam: "We're not going to tolerate people who are irresponsible no matter what round they're drafted in. ...

Yes we would. He is what I feel this Organization needs to do in order to gain the respect of its fan base and the NFL:

1. Cut Manziel and Gordon or try and trade them. They should not be on this team next year
2. Hire Bernie Kosar in some capacity and let him help you find a Quarterback
3. Haslem needs to make a statement saying I forced the Coach and GM into drafting/keeping certain players. I was wrong, I learned my lesson, and it won't happen again, period
4. Sit Gilbert down and lay it all on the line, be a pro or you are gone

AMEN ... Why beat around the Bush

This post brings up some good points and makes me wonder just how much as a Browns fan if we really want bad boys on this team...

We have some bad boys... one can produce some as in Gordon and the other two just can't..

I guess what I'm getting to is some including myself would like to see a guy like Suh come here... Knowing his bad antics but also knowing his on field play..We could accept it because we know he could be a game changer.. Which makes it easier to accept.

As of now I can't accept JM... Gilbert I would have
rather of seen seen Mike Evans... And Gordon.. If we can hook him up with a QB that can help him kick ass.. then I'll deal with him... as we know most WR's are head cases anyway..

Sounds like the Browns will be drafting or signing a QB in 2015.

Suh wants to play for a big market team or a true SB contender.

This would take some testicular fortitude. Not sure how to make of this IF it comes true.

TEAM OF DESTINY!!!

I'm sure he does.. but that wasn't the point I was making in my post...It was about us dealing with difficult players.

the same fortitude that it would take to fire a coaching staff after their first year?

So you're ok with difficult players as long as they produce?

of course I am... as long as they don't become a locker room cancer.. I know it's a fine line.. But I believe some can fit in and have the players back as long as they do perform well

I agree.

You have to be ok with difficult players.

Winning games is winning games.

Richard Sherman produces, although he's just a loud mouth, but I'd love for him to be on this team.

Marshall lynch produced.

Aldon smith from San fran produces.

Part of coaching isn't just on the field, it's off as well.

Haslam and other fans let emotions and hype get in the way when choosing Manziel. Anyone who used logic and rational, KNEW Bridgewater was a better pro prospect.

Without being in the locker room it's hard to get a true bead on what the players are doing during practices or what the other players think about our "bone-headed 3". But my best guess on what will happen is.....

Gordon gets traded or dumped by draft day. I think even Haslam has seen enough of his BS. I always felt his talent warranted a little leeway but this last incidence is the last straw. He has to go, no matter what.

Manziel will be told in no uncertain terms (if he hasn't already) that one more dumbass incident and he's toast as well. If they can get a 3rd (or better) draft pick in a trade (unlikely at this point) he'll be traded by the end of the draft as well. Although, I don't think this will happen it would not surprise me in the least.

Gilbert is actually a harder case to figure out. At least for me. I think he has the talent to be good. Really good. But without being around the team to judge his desire and intelligence I cannot say what will likely happen. I think that if Pettine stays so will Gilbert. But, obviously, his leash is almost as short as Manziel's.

I have to say I am more sad than mad. The season showed so much promise 2 months ago. Now it's pretty much the same as every season since '99. To think that so much talent is wasted on guys with dime store brains is just depressing. That I now have to watch the Steelers and Bengals stroll into the playoffs along with the Ravens only makes me wish that I had the good sense to follow some other team. Sadly, I do not. So I'll be be back watching the Browns next year. I'll just be doing so with a lot more beer in the fridge......

Go back to after the Thursday night at Cincy ... and then look at the team right now

Man, what a debacle

It would be a "Conditional" (dependent upon his subsequent performance). Don't know what round, perhaps a 3rd with moving up to the 2nd. At this point we don't know when in time a trade could occur, but I would expect the pick would be in the following years draft...

Its odd because Blake Bortles looks horrible...yet noone is calling for his head and he has his teams backing...switch Manziel for Bortles...and we'd be calling for Bortles head...I'm not a Manziel lover and had Manziel ranked behind Bridgewater and Bortles and tied with Carr...I understand Manziel has irked many with questionable dedication (pisses me off too) yet I understand he is still a rookie and rookies all struggle (some more so on the field, some off the field, some with both) Manziel deserves blame for not knowing a majority of the playbook and for being late to his treatment yesterday...

The reason Manziel looked so poorly is because we had to run him in the limited plays that he did know...strictly on Manziel...all of our QBs struggled behind this line and with our wideouts dropping a lot more passes later in the year...

Regardless...QB is still a huge question mark

Bortles didn't have to have the team security go and find him because he was partying instead of taking his job serious

Good point.

Good point.

I'd cut or trade gordon... Manziel And Gilbert I'd sit and have a serious talk with before offseason but would shop manziel a little just to feel out what he's worth.... But if he doesn't tout in the work this offseason I would make him inactive every game and let him sit until he learns or we can trade him

I think with the new rules...doesn't Gordon have more leeway as far as being banned? Like if he messes up again its another full suspension without ban? Perhaps I read it wrong...I think Gordon compares to Mike Williams yet has shown to be an elite War and superior wide out...both had or have issues...Williams went for a 6th I believe...I can see us receiving a 4th easy for Gordon...or at least hope so.

So were Bortles and Carr

I'm sure Bortles has partied this year...many times to boot too...problem is he didn't miss a meeting or his treatment for an injury...and like I stated I'm irked with Manziel as well.

Wow, it may be getting bad....

https://twitter.com/ruiterwrongfan

Wow - tweeting like it is! I like JT - We need stability! . Did you catch the tweet where Pet and Farmer will be back?

I don't tweet or have an account. What was said by whom?

Without!

I think at this point, if you agree that Manziel is not going to be a good pro, and that Gordon is a screwup that you just don't want to count on anymore, you could get rid of both and send a very positive message to the rest of the team, especially Gilbert. There really is not much to lose. Sure you could try to get a couple of third round picks for those two idiots, but you might get more by sending the message.
Manziel is not going to be a good QB. I thought he could be, butte's an ass, and he is not that good. Gordon will just break our hearts for as long as we keep him around. After all he did to screw over his teammates, he STILL has the bad attitude. And who would bet a paycheck that he won't flunk another test? It would be great if we cut those two morons tomorrow.

Jimmy ain't takin' no *(*^(^!

[quote]"I think is the ultimate team game and I think a player who can't show up for meetings, can't make practice, can't make weight lifting, disrespects himself," Haslam said. "But I think more importantly, and I think this is what these young guys miss -- they disrespect the team, the coaches, the staff, the fans. There's a lot of people in our organization whose livelihood depends on how well we do, and we're not going to tolerate people who are irresponsible no matter what round they're drafted in.
"So these young guys, we're going to give them a chance. They're young kids. We're going to work with them. Hopefully they'll grow up, but if they can't grow up and they can't be responsible to their teammates and the coaches and our great fans, then they won't be with the Cleveland Browns."/quote]

Now we're talkin'!

J/C

I sincerely hope that Pettine/Farmer (and their respective staffs) have enough humility to be able to look at themselves and recognize mistakes made, opportunities lost, and work at becoming better in their second year in their respective positions.

It doesn't bode well that their two first rounders became what they became this year. It isn't their fault Gordon can't exercise self control.

And don't forget about Ben Tate.

We have had some winners, K'wan Williams, Crowell, Gabriel . . . to name a few that give me some pause that perhaps they have something upstairs and can use that something to acquire better talent either through free agency and especially, the draft.

J/C

I was a supporter of all three and wanted them to succeed, but now I hope we can get draft picks for Manziel & Gordon and move on from them. I'm willing to see if Gilbert can develop, if he can make it through the off season, but I'm not opposed to cutting ties with all of them if that's what it takes to move forward. This team can't afford to have high draft douch bags who don't perform. Take the hits and try to do better next draft. If they're too stupid to realize the incredible opportunity they have to turn around a storied franchinse with some dedication and hard work, and if they're too lazy to put in the effort it takes to be a high level pro, then screw them, they do not belong here.

I don't know about the Kosar thing, but it probably wouldn't hurt to have him consult, he certainly knows his X's and O's but the reason I quoted this is #3. Haslam really needs to do something like this both as a vote of confidence for Farmer but also an assurance to the league (free agents mostly) that he'll be letting the football guys make the decisions from here on out.

Just reading a tweet from Mary Kay where she linked an article that said that Gilbert and Johnny were banished to the trainers room for the Ravens game. Mid game, Johnny "favourited" a tweet about Chris Rocks' divorce and rightfully got pounded by Browns fans (tweet later deleted). This guy just had no radar for not doing idiotic things. In light of everything that's gone on, all that you said, you'd at least think he would consider just maybe not drawing attention to himself when his team are out there giving it all for a lost cause. Just wow.......

I was willing to give Manziel the benefit of the doubt but after the antics of this weekend I am done with him. The guy's an idiot. Time to move on. This franchise has already lost too much time waiting on people who are a waste of time. He can take Gordon with him. These guys are both losers.

I'm done with Gordon (Vers was absolutely right), keeping Gilbert for his potential, and one of Hoyer/Manziel has to go as it appears they cannot co-exist, amongst other reasons...

I just don't think he cares about football all that much.

Which is the most surprising part to me. All the reports coming out of college were that he loved the game and was a competitor. But his actions certainly show something different. He seemed to relish in being on the sidelines. I dont think he's a moron. I just don't think he cares about playing all that much.

I've been saying this for years. It's going to take a special kind of attitude at the QB position to bring this team out of this funk. Someone who looks across the field at Roth and isn't impressed. Someone who possesses that inate confidence in themselves. An ultimate competitor that the rest of the team will follow. Obviously the skill needs to be there, but their confidence lies in part because they know they possess the skill as well.

I thought we were getting many of those attitude attributes with Manziel, but he's proving to be a politician. I think he has some skill and can improve in that area, but guys don't follow him. They don't play for him. That means there is a ton going on behind the scenes that is not a good reflection on him. And he just doesn't seem to care.

I'll never doubt JT again...I'll say that much.

There's some scuttlebutt that Manziel and Gilbert and Gordon are purposely acting out in hopes of getting released. I don't think there are many legs to it at this time, but I have a hard time believing they are as stupid as it appears. There's something else going on here. My personal speculation is that Manziel and Gilbert feel wronged about being outed in the media by Dansby and Whitner and Pettine. This is their way of fighting back. Just more justification to cut bait.

That would be so incredibly immature...

I think that could be giving too much credit to these morons. Was it part of Johnny's master plan for getting released to not learn the playbook all season and to play seven quarters of football that makes it impossible to believe he could ever be good? Was it part of Gordon's genius scheme to get himself out of here when he missed a meeting and totally screwed himself out of free agency?
Nah, these guys really are just that stupid and selfish. Now, they could really hate it here now and want out, and be saying that this is why they have acted this way. But don't believe it.

I don't know that I'm ready to give up on Justin Gilbert or Josh Gordon, but honestly after the way Shaw played yesterday, I don't see Manziel improving enough to become a starting caliber NFL quarterback.

Connor Shaw was an undrafted rookie and he looked A MILE ahead of Manziel.

If we can get a 3rd or 4th round draft pick for Josh Gordon I almost consider making the trade, I'm sick of hearing about him getting in trouble at this point, and one more failed drug test is a season long ban.

Gilbert is on his first strike. Don't trade him yet.

I have read the comments from the Browns and you guys. I watched yesterday's game. And I have had a bit more time to think about this. A few thoughts...

--I think it is wrong to blame Pettine and the coaches for "the kids" problems.

--Haslam made a lot of sense when he spoke of these three guys disrespecting their teammates, coaches, ect.

--I think it also makes sense that the Browns will work w/these guys, but will get rid of them if there are further infractions.

--Not sure why people are defending Gilbert over the other two. Gilbert has received more criticism from his own teammates and coaches than the other two. I am not there to know, but he might be the biggest idiot of the three---he is just hidden because he is more obscure.

--I thought the team played better yesterday w/out the three problem children.

--Some people say that you have to put up w/problem guys. They mentioned players like Richard Sherman. What? Sherman is loud, but he practices hard, plays hard, and puts a ton of time in studying the game. He recently called out another teammate for not performing. There is a difference between being loud and being a problem. Look, if you are missing--and being late--for meetings and practices........you ARE a problem. That selfish attitude adversely affects the entire team.

--I think it might be best if the Browns follow what Haslam said--as in trying to help these guys, but not putting up w/more nonsense. However, I won't have a problem w/the Browns if they get rid of all three of these guys.

--I do think it is a very real possibility that Gordon will be gone and they will give the two rookies another chance. Not sure why I think that, but I do believe there is some merit to it.

--Joe Thomas' tweet about "a few bad apples" was very telling. Wow!

--People defend Gordon because of his talent and say he helps us win games. Okay, what was the Browns record w/and w/out Gordon this year? What is the Browns overall record in games that JG has played? Is he really winning games for us? This season went sour after he came back. I am not placing all the blame on him, but I am not buying how he is winning games for us w/his talent.

--I hope we keep our GM and HC. However, I sure hope that they do a better job in the draft than they did this year. The Gilbert/Manziel draft might actually be as bad--or worse--than the TRich/Weeden draft....and I didn't think that was possible.

NE Patriots can drop guys like this, and easily find guys wanting to come to NE and fill the gap.

Sadly, we do not have the same reputation and winning culture, so filling those gaps is often done with 2nd rate players, who probably aren't any better than what we drop.

This is where the vets need to step in and straighten up the locker room. As Haslam said, this behavior is an insult to them and their efforts, even more so than the 3 problem players.

Farmer made some interesting comments about Gordon before he came back, now it appears he was on to something about Josh, and the Browns clicked while he was out.
He came back and things got worse after his first game.

He truely acts like he wants out and it's rumored he does.
Gilbert...and Mazniel probably will be back but both are going to compete for playing time, but I would not be shocked if they were offered something , the Browns might be tempted to move them. I have more than a tiny hunch they want to move Gordon.
He's forgotten they gave him tons of chances and he's bit the hand that fed him.

We own the contract for Manziel and Gilbert for 3 more years. They are not making much money at this point. Manziels base next year is under 800k, Gilbert just north of 1 mil.
We own Gordons contract for one more year at a base of 1.068 mil.

I think I would sit all three down and give them the talk. But all three situations are different. For Manziel, if this crap keeps up, I would try to fleece the cowboys and send him packing if they want to overpay. If not I would sit him in bench purgatory and ruin the whole Johnny football crap because he isn't going to get the endorsements for not producing. I would financially make a significant dent in his earning power.
If Gilbert is showing he has the potential and made a couple boneheaded mistakes, I would try to save him. Having him and Haden is something we haven't had since Hanford and Minny. I hope he is anywhere near that good. But we have a couple more cheap years with him.
As for Gordon, I would put him on the market and see what it gets. He is cheap next year and probably will be gone after 2015 anyways. Or we keep him on the cheap next year and wait for him to screw up again so he can go back to sales. I would keep him on a very short leash.

We have talent on this team. However, the schedule is tougher next year with the AFC & NFC West teams.
Also, I went back through the first couple rounds of last years draft and was just sick on what we passed. The lineman, the receivers. Sickening. We just got to draft better.

Last year's 1st round was a goldmine for GMs ... OL,DL,WR,LB ... and we end up with the two worst players

I don't know if we'd be better, but we wouldn't be any worse. Of that much, I am absolutely certain.

Manziel brings absolutely nothing to the league except for hype. To paraphrase a tweet I saw yesterday: "he's RGIII wrapped in a Justin Bieber body". He's Tim Tebow with a slightly different cult following and without the "he just wins" diatribes.

Gilbert offers promise, and has flashed some. However, he has a lot of work to get to the point where he can even have his name spoken in the same sentence as Joe Haden's.

Gordon suffers - intentionally, it seems - from an acute case of cranial rectalisys. All the physical talent in the world, but when it comes to how to conduct his life, he's a complete moron with the maturity level of a puppy. He could truly be a freak in this league if he just learned how to work and how to set aside "the lifestyle", but he can't get out of his own way. He's the Ricky Williams of wide receivers, which makes him a dime-a-dozen guy. You can find a career that flames-out early just about everywhere, no need to look very hard.... it's a common story.

I'd cut bait on Manziel. Didn't like the pick in the first place so I would have no issues with the front office admitting a mistake and moving on. Gordon and Gilbert might at least be able to help us win so I'm ok with whatever they choose to do with those 2. But the team is built to win next year. Manziel is a project at best and a loser punk at worst.

I'd rather ask the question, Would this team be better if I were running it.

Well, it depends on when I would have started, They'd have Tannehil right now, he's really coming into his own down there in Miami.

Today my thinking is, they need to keep this team together, go find a ... Another... #1 tight end to carry onto the roster next season, including Dray, Barnidge, and Cameron,.

A #1 TE helps the run game. The run game starts with the TE. And a #1 TE helps the passing game. And a #1 TE doesn't push anyone of consequence off the roster.

.... ...

Trestman was fired after a 13-19 record over 2 years.

Given next years tougher schedule, Seattle, Denver, 49ers, ect, ... Do the Browns have the foresight to keep Pettine in spite of a likely 6-10 record or worse, .. meaning 6-10 would give him the same 13-19 record after 2 years that Trestman was just fired for.

Another thought. All around the AFC North, (outside of Cleveland) I find HC's Qb's and major players, and major asistants that have been on that team for 4 years or more, or almost.

When are the Browns going to get a 4 year person at ANY!!! of these. You have to build around someone.

Gordon Manziel and Gilbert. ????????


It is official, NOBODY ! - can retire a Cleveland Brown. Oh my gosh.

Last year's 1st round was a goldmine for GMs ... OL,DL,WR,LB ... and we end up with the two questionable players
........................................................

Every time Farmer or Haslam speak , I think about the above !

I think that's exactly what the vets like Dansby and Whitner and to a degree, Thomas are doing. They are stepping up and telling these guys (Manziel and Gilbert) what they need to do and calling them out for not doing it.

I'm not sure who if anyone is talking to Gordon but someone needs too.

I'm not in the camp that said, DUMP them now. I'm of the opinion that they (the Vets and coaching staff and owner) are sending a CLEAR message to these guys.

I can't tell today if the message is getting through or not. Too soon to tell given that the message was just given recently (as least publicly anyway).

Besides, you won't get diddily for any of them today.

Manziel has no real value that I can see.
Gilbert has no real value that I can see.
Gordon is a former probowler and thus has value, but that dog has fleas. I wouldn't expect to get even a second round pick for him.

So, with that, it might just be better to stick with them to see if the message that was just delivered publicly has any effect.

I have great doubts that it will work, but we've invested in these guys and we need to follow through.

Given all that has transpired up to this point with these clowns their behavior is hard to fathom. Can you imagine this happening with Vince Lombardi or Paul Brown. The team would have beat the crap out of them.

Josh Gordon with all his talent is a lost cause. I mean how many breaks and life consoling advice has been given to this guy. Everyone has "been in his corner". Everybody from Haslam on down has tried to help straighten this guy out. Sad when great talent does not reach full potential.
Enough already trade him. And I do believe that is what is going to happen.

Justin Gilbert. Hard to say what this guy is thinking. He has been a disaster. He was drafted as a favor to Pettine over Watkins because he would help build his scheme, which utilizes press corners. You can forgive struggling in a CB's rookie year. You can not forgive effort. They have no choice but to work with him. The investment has been made.

Johnny Manziel. So much attention; so little content.
What can you do with him? His value in trade is zero. You put him up for trade and you admit it. I really do not think there would be any market for him. He is under contract. Again not much you can do but see what happens.
How Manziel was given a first round grade by the Browns is beyond imagination.

The Browns are back to square one. Deja Vou all over again. Find a quarterback. At this point Hoyer may be their best option. From what I have read Sam Bradford is still in the plans for the Rams. It would still be worth going after him. All they can say is no.

Their chances of drafting Mariota are zero. Tampa and the Titans are going after quarterbacks. So maybe they look at guys who will not be in the first round. After picking Manziel I have no idea who they will even look at.

If Shanahan is still with the Browns maybe he will vote to go after Cousins.

The Browns inability to identify a quarterback is so glaring it does give one much hope that they can find a guy in the draft. So the shirt list is likely to still grow.

for what its worth..

Manziel said that he did not throw a party-had 3 friends in from Texas and stayed out a little late and overslept and Josh was not with him at night.
And about an hour ago Manziel addressed the team below

Manziel apologized to the team, veterans, etc. "Either i'm going to learn or I'm going to be finding something else to do"

unprofessional at best...liar at worst

He has spewed this rhetoric before. I don't buy it and I doubt the Browns vets do either. I don't think he can be a leader on this team.

j/c...
Stud WR with Tude...bad tude at that. I don't mind a cocky tude that much...bad tude and Gordon is no dummy he chooses to be who he is. Right now a MALCONTENT. Cause we didn't give him a shot at 200 yards every game after his return. We wanted him to run actual routes? Coaches didn't kiss his butt?

It would be great to have a STUD with the right TUDE - but we saw how well our offense had flow without Gordon - with a bunch of nobodies at WR. I'm not saying to upgrade on them. I want to upgrade. But to become a championship team you need SOLID at WR more than GREAT. Give me a STUD who plays hard like DEZ...Please go get him. AJ Green? I'll pass on that. My point I guess is give me FOOTBALL PLAYERS who happen to be decent WRs!

So Gordon we get a 2nd round or more...trade him. Do we still have him for 2 years? Cause of the final suspension he still didn't fulfill the year for his contract so it doesn't count. That should make his value higher.

Gilbert, that would be a big loss if he wants out. Pouting for not being a starter...if he doesn't work harder than ever for next season that might become the case, a talent never making it and a waste. What I do like is DeSir who shows maybe the same potential as Gabriel and is closer to fulfilling it by the strides he made this season. Beginning to now...big time difference. Williams...those two might make it easier to just put him on the burner let him play special teams or QUIT...don't release him as long as we don't need the money!

JM...Young and stupid cannot last forever. He gets one year to turn things around. Regardless if he's a starter or back up to a better starter. He better show his all out effort to become better.

I still think he is worth keeping around - he is not all hype he actually has the tools. He is not a running QB we better use him in the pocket even if its a moving one.

jmho...Accuracy is the key for me at QB. JM is accurate when he's playing the QB and he's accurate in the pocket.

I missed the article or presser where that was stated as fact. Hell, I don't think I've even heard that as speculation before.



Hope that's not true... McCoy beat out Cousins in DC.

I agree with everything you've said until you got to Manziel. I can't believe you're still backing this guy. Young doesn't last forever, but stupid sure as hell can. Could you not see that Shaw was better prepared and a better quarterback than Manziel on a short week's worth of preparation! Even with a terribly weak arm (frankly, I don't know how he stays on a roster with an arm that poor) he was light years better than Manziel at playing the position.

Now I know that you're going to say it was because of Shannahan changing the playbook but he should have shown something...anything...

I agree with everything you've said until you got to Manziel.

Well that doesn't actually surprise me at all...lol You've been pretty much done with JM for quite a while. I didn't expect to agree...you are entitled. Probably at this time I am the minority here. Please don't mistake my championing his potential for me stating he is all that. I'm actually disappointed in his "ALL THAT" - I do think he is more young and stupid then - Hype with nothing to give. It don't make it right. We will give him another season for sure. Unless he gets arrested for something then I can see the party being over that would be NFL party.

But do I think he is a demon for throwing a darn tooting Christmas party? No just Young and Stupid, so glad I haven't seen video or embarrasing pics.

Shaw without a doubt impressed me but we are talking about a possible QB for the promised land. It might be or might not be Manziel. What I do know it won't be Shaw. Average arm we can get away with...Hoyer is average. Shaw unless it was nerves or something. But he won't be able to make deep outs. He's a QB that would get burnt by D's playing Zone and there aren't too many of them in the NFL. Prepared yes, also he played Hoyers O not that new Manziel O Shanny tried to put in that Nobody really knew. But you said it yourself...terribly weak arm. You are saying...judge Manziel the right now and judge Shaw over him why??? terribly weak arm says NEVER to be a major player as a starter. Also how old is Shaw? just curious.

I agree Manziel should have shown something anything. Well all I got on that glimpse thing you are asking for is the Buffalo game. He showed me something there. I'm happy that Shaw showed he is getting it. But he will never be the GUY (shouldn't say never cause you NEVER KNOW...lol ) If you can read between the lines. I'm saying nothing close to handing him the reigns without him earning it. Just saying he still is Young, Stupid and loads of Potential. I would give him one more year to change. If not I'm with you like just about all Browns would be. Position is worth the chances for progress!

I believe each player is different. Gordon has been here. He has been given support and chances to do better. Yet each time he has failed to answer the bell. To me it would be fitting to show Josh the door to send a message to the rookies. It would send a precedent and show these rookies that they better shape up or they too will be shipped out.

I don't think it's wise to simply give them all the boot. While that sounds good in theory, I believe a lot of that is based more upon emotion than reality. Kicking Gordon to the curb sets a clear example and message to both Manziel and Gilbert which they can't deny.

Give the rookies one more year after they've seen first hand the consequences they will face if they don't change, then deal with the aftermath. They gave Josh those opportunities and if they don't give these rookies a little more time, I don't believe that sends a good message to anyone.

I think most peoples opinions on weather they should stay or go relate to how they feel as them as a player..

Does it suck that super talented people get more chances at life than others? Yeah but guess what.. that's life..

Manziel has an attitude, has admitted to it, and said he would do better.. and immediately didn't.. Add into the fact that a Practice Squad player looked more prepared than him.. and he looked like crap.. and getting rid of him doesn't seem like that bad of an idea...

Gilbert has shown to have some sort of attitude. But he has at least "flashed" at times unlike Manziel. And while CB is easier than QB.. it obviously takes time to learn the position in the NFL.. And back to my earlier point.. because I liked the pick.. I'm going to give him more time..

I would trade Gordon to the highest bidder at the first opportunity.. He's the most talented of the three, and one of the most talented players on the team.. But even beyond his suspensions, when I watch him play, I don't see a guy that cares.. And I'm just tired of having to worry about him being able to play, running the right routes, or giving any effort if the ball isn't perfectly placed in his hands.. or even catching it when it is..

I'm with you on Gordon but the question is, will there be a market for him? I mean other teams see the same things we do. There's always someone out there that thinks they can "fix" that sort of talent but I just don't know if they're going to give us anything for him.

But do I think he is a demon for throwing a darn tooting Christmas party?

Well that turned out to be a MEDIA LIE? Who reported that...they should be fined...lol

So that would make JM just a tad less Young & Stupid...but young and stupid never the less.

Just no part - no part of Gordon's disappearance, Gilbert what is the truth about him?

Seems to be that makes it worse all around. That means these guys indpendently blew the team off, it wasn't even just poor judgement as a group...

As did I. It is way too soon to judge his transition to the NFL, and although his early play was sub-par, he did show good progress. Hopefully he gets his head on straight for we need bigger CB's than Buster (but with his heart/hustle)...

If you call a team like Oakland, or the Jets on draft day, after they missed out on say an Amari Cooper.. And offered Gordon for their 3rd.. Or maybe Gordon and a pick for their 2nd... Teams like that that are starved for offensive talent.. I doubt they won't think about it..

As much as people wanna say Gordon has "No value" he obviously does.. We just have to find it.. and make the deal and not look back..

I would tip my cap to Farmer if he could get a conditional fourth for him.

On what planet does a guy who has never completed a full season with any organization without being arrested, suspended or failing a drug test going to get you a second or third round pick?

This reminds me of when guys were throwing out the possibility of getting a second or third for Colt McCoy.

Wishful thinking not rooted in reality.

And that's the sad truth.

We don't have a legit QB

We don't have a legit NFL GM

We don't have a legit NFL HC

And we have Haslam

This mix will stink for years. Wasting a decade of Joe Thomas is what all those years will be reminded of.

Who knows what a team, who has a QB, who has the other pieces except for that WR threat, would be willing to risk on taking a chance with Josh. Let's face it, whether we trade him, keep him, whatever - whoever he is with is going to be taking a "chance" on him.

As PDR said, he's not completed an entire season... and he hasn't shown any progress on the "growing up" and maturity side. Given how we played with Gabriel, Hawkins, Benjamin and Austin in Gordon's absence and if I were Farmer... I'd be keeping my ears open and I'd have no qualms trading him. I've not given up fully on him like I did with Greg Little, but faith is so low that a small gust of wind could tip me over.


JMO

Joe Thomas' career has already been wasted long before Haslam, Farmer, and Pettine ever entered the picture.

And while you may be right about still needing a QB, can't we give Pettine and Farmer more than one year before writing them off?

Why do you think that Pettine and Farmer can't be the guys?

I bet Belichick would love to have a Josh Gordon for Brady to sling it to. The Pats have had great success with guys like him.

Please Explain???????

A common theme on this board, is that when someone likes a previous regime, and they are replaced, then everyone that follows obviously sucks and everything they do is wrong.

Mistakes are exaggerated. Successes are downplayed.

I actually have more hope left for Pettine, something like 25%. I have close to zero faith in Farmer though.

He traded up for two players in last year's draft: Manziel and West. Both have no talent and are showboat idiots. He's either incompetent or has a soft spot for that kind of combination, which, again, makes him incompetent.

The entire draft reeked of "outsmarting first year GM". Picking players from small schools and/or hyped up late season Bowl participants. I'm seriously NOT joking when saying that I fully believe that he lucked into Bitonio by throwing darts at this kind of profile. Bitonio was a "late season sleeper" from a small school who flew up boards, so he fully qualifies. If you select a handful of those, you might luck into a good one eventually that puts in the work to fulfill his upside, that's Bitonio, because on tape he wasn't that good, thus why he was a mid/late rounder before the offseason. Too bad he 's a OG and there were starting OG everywhere in the draft. Sometimes GMs make good picks with a bad philosophy, it happens. But overall, an amateurish philosophy will give you what we got overall.

West, Desir, Manziel, Gilbert were all "hype over tape" kind of players wih that "I'm smarter than all of you" written all over it.

Another issue: punting the entire 3rd day of the draft despite this being the deepest I've seen in the last 10 years. I can't give him credit for Crowell or K.Williams since those UDFA guys go where they have the best shot at sticking (usually weaker rosters). He had a 7th after burning multiple picks to get Manziel and West and gave it to Ozzie for a 6th this draft, which is much weaker at the top and depth, instead of picking Crowell or Gabriel or Williams. But you know what? He felt smart after doing it....that I can assure you

Long story short: I can't (edit) trust a guy who:

- fell for the Manziel hype (and offseason hype over season's worth of tape in general. He either didn't do the work or was easily swayed away from it, pick your poison)
- took flash over tape and consistency (Gilbert's size/speed and "playmaking" ability over Fuller)
- drafts two small, small school prospects he probably scouted off of offseason practices (West, Desir)

Too many red flags of incompetence for me to trust him

Yeah, I was a total LomBanner homer, lol

I actually was excited to have them gone and gave Farmer a chance. He disappointed in FA and crapped the bed on draft weekend...and I don't say that kind of stuff in hindsight.

I wanted him to succeed and he had a big chance with Bridgewater falling into his lap, plus a future 1st in the pocket. He failed...miserably. It was a very important draft for us, because his predecessors failed the two drafts before. A good 1st round and we're looking at probably POs, but we drafted two duds, who did nothing to help this team...in a round full of high end talent, some making AllPro and PB teams as rooks.

I hear you on this, but to be blunt here... and to do nothing more than speculate really - but I think this pick was on behalf Mr. Haslam's, or under major influence on Mr. Haslam's behalf... JF I wished would have been picked earlier so that way we would have been forced to go elsewhere.

And, for me, it's not really about how poor he's played on the field, but how much negative attention he brings off the field. It's really getting absurd. One time, okay... two times... hmmm. Three and even more - c'mon kid get your $hit together!

Justin is another story. What a joke if he's had multiple team infractions. A high round draft pick, I really can understand why Hitner said what he said as did Dansby. Who knows how many infractions that the media didn't catch wind of and maybe explains his reps being shredded to almost nothing and being slapped behind undrafted rookies, late round pick rookies and etc. Hell, if we had Chris Owens still, I think he'd have gotten more game reps than Gilbert. Horrible for a high-round pick.

Josh Gordon, it's about time to hit some sort of tipping point. About all I can say. He's been an utter disgrace and it's a wasted year for him. Can him play one FULL season without getting suspended for something?

To sum it up, would the team be better without them? Guess that would depend who they were replaced with. For the most part, probably yeah. They're not a good example for those trying to make a living playing at the highest level of football the world has to offer, like a K'uan Williams, Isiah Crowel and etc than those who weren't even drafted. I'd not be ashamed if either of them were traded. Not a single bit.

Farmer and Pettine don't sound like fools to me.

It is amazing how you down play everything that they have done, or judge them prematurely.
We drafted a qb and corner in the first. Aren't those 2 positions the hardest to transition to in the nfl?

Both Manziel and Gilbert were talked about high. You act like we drafted some no name guy in the first. Both look to be failing due to maturity issues. They both look bad, but the story isn't over yet. I think Pettine did the only thing he could with these guys. Embarrass the publicly, punish them for the stuff they did wrong, and i'm sure layout what is expected to them next year.

As for the rest of the draft, how can you say it was bad? West had some problems, and seems to have learned from them. Crow as well. Bit and Kirksey played well for rookies, and Desir looked good in the limited time he played.

How do you find fault in that? Cause they didn't pick who you wanted? And we had a ton of production from free agent rooks. You can say all you want that they had nothing to do with it, but if that's the case why isn't every team getting such good production from them?

I'm sure i just wasted my time, but you certainly have the hindsight is 20/20 thing down pat.

Unlike others, I'm not flip-flopping. I criticized Farmer for a weak FA to fill needs and bolster depth. Could and should have done more. He went into the draft with too many needs and picked accordingly and we still had no depth....as always....and as always it cost us down the stretch, ending with 5 losses after some injuries (and yes, other teams had injuries too).

I've agreed with you on most everything you've said and I'm still 100% in Farmer and Pettine's camp but come on, we missed in the first round, at least as far as players who provided an immediate impact. I'm still holding out hope for Gilbert but there were certainly quite a few other players that we could have gotten at 26 that would have made a major impact this season. I mean how would a Justin Gilbert/Kelvin Benjamin draft looked to you?

I am going to defend Dj in that he absolutely hated Banner and Lombardi, so ThatGuy, your accusation is off.

Dj, like you......I don't like what Farmer did this off-season either. We could have acquired quality ZBS guards in FA. We could have drafted Teddy and Beckham and still had Buffalo's pick. We could have done much better in round 3 and 4.

But, w/that said............it is one year. Way too early to give up on them. I think he did some good things, too. He got rid of a cancer in Ward. He upgraded w/Dansby and Whit. He got good players in Crowell, Bitonio, and Williams. He got rid of Weeden. Ooopps...sorry about that one.

I think continuity is important and that we should give this guy a chance before we write him off. We are all sick of losing and I find it amazing that we can't even luck out once in awhile.

Seriously.......I wanted Teddy. Guys like Mourg and Steve wanted Carr. We argued like crazy. Truth be told, we would be way better off w/either guy than Manziel. And what is crazy is that a bunch of us like the two I mentioned, Toad, tab, and others had Manziel rated number two. Most of us did say he was a boom or bust guy, but we either had him ahead of Teddy or Carr. It just sucks how things always work out for the Browns.

It seemed to me, whomever was drafting for us or forcing the hand for drafting purposes...really seemed to panic...I don't think any of us had mocked us picking a corner in the top 10...I think they saw "well the CBs will be off the board at 1B...so lets pick one now" And I remember Gilbert was mostly viewed as the best corner in the draft...but his stock went down from the combine to the draft, he had no buzz...which to me sounds like he was red flagged in interviews...I noticed Gilbert seemed to a better hybrid (CB/Returner) than pure CB...superb return skills seemed to bump him up fairly well.

I shook my head when we took Manziel over Bridgewater...I loved Bridgewaters ability to stay firm in the pocket and throw the ball even with defenders closing on him...his awareness seemed strides better Johnny...I mentioned prior to the draft that Manzie...took perfect standing plays and would break the play by himself, causing hysteria which works in college but not in the pros...I know he had no chance with stronger, faster, more advanced and disciplined defenses...He reminded me more of Michael Bishop than someone who was gunna damage the league...

Bitonio..was hearing a lot about him late in round 1 as a RT...cant say I hated it, but did want a WR initially...was a very good pick by our FO...he looks to be very good-elite...

Somebody really turned me to RB McKinnon...I literally drooled when watching his tape and combine...I think we may have really wanted him, then Minny grabbed him...we set in panic mood...and traded up for T. West...He seemed a tad slow even in a horrible division of play...Played pretty decent for a rookie...his fumbles and attitude are concerning...both will get you out of the league fast.

I saw Christian Kirkseys tape while looking at Christian Jones tapes...Kirksey was really active, and actually would line up and cover Wrs too...he was all over the field...however would be thrown around rather easy too...he seemed to get into blockers heads with his constant pursuit...I never imagined him as a 3-4 backer...so didn't see us picking him...however I think he played the pass very well this year.

I will admit for 3 years on these boards now Ive been advocating for taller bigger CBs to match up with the bigger dominating WRS that have been tearing up the NFL...we drafted Desir (I never saw him play in honesty, never really heard of him) I was actually really cool with grabbing corners with 6'0+ frames...was basically a redshirt year from Desir...


If the light comes on for Gilbert...we have a superb duo at CB...ok at worst we have Justin Miller...a dime corner whom was severely overdrafted on his return skills...at worse let him be our returner and backup corner
Not a big fan of Manziel...but we gave Weeden 2 years as our QB...7 quarters for Manziel...I don't want to give up on him that quick...

In all honesty...I think coaches told Manziel he will be redshirting this year all along...so he thought he didn't need to learn this playbook this year and could take a year off...he slacked off big time, did what he wanted...and in those 7 quarters it showed he was behind in his learning and translation...(to be fair all Qbs at the end of the year had to deal with our WRS dropping some easy balls, A horrid interior line play, and an exhausted defense) I believe Manziel will be better than what we saw...but I believe his size greatly hinders his vision for throws and I don't see him being a pocket QB that sets his feet and throws...he abandons plays and runs like a kid at recess far too often...

Not quite true. I had us picking Gilbert, but at #9. I believe one other of us had the call correct as well...

We'll revisit this comment after 2 more seasons and see how premature this was...

Nice post, tru. Very rational even if I don't agree w/all of it.

Farmer liked Watkins a lot.(he was asked about someone else and he stated Watkins would have been the pick if Buffalo had not made an offer of another first.) He was ready to take him. I have read(PD most likely) that was the case. Buffalo wanted Watkins bad. Pettine wanted a press corner and Gilbert was the guy they liked. If Buffalo was not willing to give up a first Watkins would have been a Brown.

Shanahan has been linked to Cousins before. He was good at executing his offense. He could had for a third or less.

Cousins has looked good at times but inconsistent. He is still a young guy. He would be at least competition.

If I trade Gordon, I'm sending him to some team that will bite with an offer, but won't likely hurt or or come back to bite us... like the Raiders.

Perhaps farmer took a liking to your mock :0 lol yeah I remember most of our 1A picks were being mocked at WR, QB, OT, or LB Mack (if he lasted) just don't recall many calling for CB ther...I do remember a lot mocking CB Kyle Fuller at 1B. though

j/c

Gilbert hardly played this.
Manziel hardly played and when he did he looked terrible
Gordon missed 11games this year and the team looked better without him. And it sounds like he made several mistakes that directly lead to interceptions.

I don't see how getting rid of any of them would make us worse but do see how their attitudes can be an anchor on this team.

Thank you kindly Vers...I'm trying to stay optimistic while many want to crucify others around here lol

j/c

Q: Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?

A: short answer- Browns already WERE better without them. In Games 1 through 10.

Gilbert hardly played at all, once he got snatched after those awful first few games.
Manziel: no play at all, after the "Manziel package" was shelved.
Gordon: 10-games out of the practice facility.

While we were playing well, I didn't miss a single one of them. When we were playing poorly, not one of them did anything to help turn things around. If they were to be cut today, I wouldn't miss them any more than I already did.

I was all for giving these guys their fair share of chances, and if the team sees fit to bring them back, that's OK with me. However, if any or all of them are gone I won't lose a bit of sleep.


.02

I'll never forget as soon as Josh Gordon came back...our QB play went from iffy-ok...to downward horrid...he seemed to not be able to create separation nor catch it cleanly...and your right a lot of passes that went for INTs were coming his way...we seemed better without him, oddly enough...Gilbert was so awful at the start of the year...he actually was playing pretty solid towards the end of the year (does a good job interfering ((legally)) with he ball and receiver) while I think Skrine is perhaps the worst at this...But like you said he barely played and was mainly a #4 CB...would have been a lot happier keeping McFadden as our dime, and drafting Beckhum Jr...imagine that now with Bridgewater later in round 1...keeping our trade up picks for Manziel...and then just trading up for Jeremy Hill in later portion of round 2...

Beckhum Jr, Bridgewater, Bitonio, Jeremy Hill...obviously its ok to day dream

I admit though I thought Cooks would be the find at WR after Evans and Watkins...what a superstar the Giants have at wideout

Your two cents are golden.

It's pretty obvious that most people on this board despise Manziel and have given Gilbert a pass, while deflecting blame away from Gordon for years, but it seems to me that the players and coaches are seeing things a bit differently than you guys are:

Manziel:


Gordon:


Gilbert:

vers...an opinion by a player who is afraid to attach his name to the story...worthless opinion.

...and just one worthless opinion.

Of course it is worthless, mac. It doesn't align w/your agenda to coddle Gordon and Gilbert, while acting like Manziel is the devil.

I translate Pettines comment to mean that Gordon is on notice that his conduct during this off season will be a determining factor as to where he plays next season...or if he plays at all.

I believe if the Browns could trade him for a second round pick, they would. I think he's gone...

vers...come on...stop this "your agenda" crap.

Manziel had my support until he proved that he did give a damn about playing in Cleveland this year. He did this to himself with his conduct off the field and his play on the field.

You want to debate or defend either of those, Manziel's play or off the field conduct, fine...but stop the agenda BS.

Gilbert...same thing with him...I support him because he is one our players but I judge him according to his performance on the field and conduct off the field.

Gilbert play was bad and he has been called out for his lax conduct by the leader of the defense. As bad as Gilbert was, he played better than Manziel which was not hard to do and his conduct off the field was not good, but nothing like Manziels.

Gilbert gets another year to grow up.

Bottom line...these players are a reflection upon those in the draft room as well as the strength of our scouting department.

They drafted these under-performing head cases and it really hurts this franchise when top draft picks end up being "projects".

Haslam, Farmer need to work with Pettine, helping him find the players needed to get the Browns to the playoffs.

We were very close this year, but in the most critical game of the year, the Browns took a timeout to see how well Haslam and Farmer drafted. That move cost the team a chance to make the playoffs.

This team is not that far away and whether the Browns make the playoffs in 2015 depends largely on management and the decisions they make.

That's where I come down as well, Gilbert's problems speak to immaturity, Manziel's speak to character. One you can grow out of, the other is who he is.

I think this perfectly summarizes the situation with these two. Thanks for wording it like that.

Once trading is allowed, I'd offer both Manziel and Gordon up to the highest bidders, but hold onto Gilbert for the time being. Maybe an off-season and understanding that the Browns won't deal with players crap will help him.

I'd think we'd get a 4 for Gordon and mid/late rounder for Manziel. I'd call Dallas and see if they'd take both for a 3rd and be happy I didn't have to cut them both.

I'd be very surprised if Gordon could get a 4th.

I don't know anyone in their right mind would pony up anything for Manziel. I doubt we could get a 7th.

If I am Ray Farmer at some point I call Jerry Jones and say "do you want the keys to win your division for years to come?" "I will give you Josh Gordon for your first rounder". I would also ask him if he had interest in Manziel. Just see what he would give for him. Then make a decision if the offer was worthy.

For me there is nothing that matters but winning. If I can improve on what I have in order to win then I am all in. No matter what kind of talent you have in my book you either are all in or you are off the bus period. There is no room for players who do not give you consistent effort.

"Farmer said the club will alter its draft interview process to avoid the mistakes it made this season."

Sorry Ray you can not put the toothpaste back into the tube. I thought that work ethic was scouting 101.

"He said(Farmer) the fact that Manziel can be a solid starter can be enough, because a team doesn't need an elite quarterback to win."

Really Ray? Do you see any light weights in the playoffs (except maybe the Cardinals)? Let's see who wins it all. I will take my chances with an elite quarterback thank you very much.

"Farmer said today that Johnny Manziel can develop into a solid starting quarterback, but that he wouldn't hesitate to draft a quarterback in the first round."

What are you saying Ray? If Manziel can be a solid starter and that is all you need why consider a quarterback in the first round?

Ray go buy yourself a pair of stones and start making decisions that win championships.

Manziel is a liability to the image of the franchise and I will be surprised if Haslam doesn't have him cut. A team like the Raiders will give a 4th for Gordon. You keep Gilbert for another season and try to coach him up to his ability.

Link below is a podcast of Jim Donovan on ESPN-Cleveland's Really Big Show yesterday. He talks mostly about our "3 knuckleheads", and what might be done with them. Interesting note at around 12:30 of the podcast when Donovan relates a conversation he had with Brian Hoyer about when things fell apart offensively and why ... the short answer: when Gordon came back.

http://www.espncleveland.com/page.php?page_id=109

There is truth to that. I noticed it right away. We went from playing as a team to not. Gordon's body language and poor route running was a major factor in our collapse. And that is why I started that thread about Gordon being a punk.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the offense seemed to work better on Sunday as well.

what I never understood was this: why did we not just go back to what worked, leaving Gordon on an island as decoy?

Our strength was spreading the ball around- teams didn't know who to cover or how. We were coming at them from all angles, and it was a joy to watch.

It's like everyone from Shanny on down got a lobotomy the minute Gordon came back. That's on them for giving him so much influence in the way plays were called/executed.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

I'd have maybe targeted him 2-3 times a half, and keep the chemistry going with them what got us to 7-4. I couldn't believe it while it was happening... and I still gots no answers.

No ONE player should be able to upset an entire squad like that. Gordon deserves his share of the blame, but bad choices were also made.


Dumb, dumb, dumb.

No. It wasn't.

I think this team would have had a much better playoff chance if Gordon's suspension was a full season. There is NO WAY he could have entered the mix without throwing off the chemistry that had already been built in his absence. UNLESS... he was used very sparingly. To have him being featured was a colossal bone-head mistake. It felt wrong from the start... so please- no remarks about hindsight here. Even the love child of Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller could have seen the total breakdown.

I find myself agreeing with you more and more on our "bonehead 3". This, of course, worries me....LOL

While I hesitate to call anyone I do not know personally a punk, I can certainly put Gordon in the category of a guy with million dollar talent with a 5 cent brain. The first miscue next year, of any kind, and he needs to be sent packing.

Gilbert apparently has either a superiority complex or his maturity level is that of a middle-school kid. Or both. He can be salvaged but the effort will have to be all his and I wouldn't waste more than another half season waiting for him to figure it out before I cut him loose.

Manziel is a different case than the other two, IMO. I do believe he has the intelligence and talent to make it as an NFL QB. His problem is his lack of maturity. Maturity can be "learned". His mistakes so far are not huge. Compared to the other two guys they are almost non-existent. What he needs is a good smack upside his head once in a while and for once in his life it appears he's getting that in the last couple of weeks. The fame that he's earned in the last few years are his own worst enemy. The national press just follows him around waiting for him to make a mistake, which most 22 year old guys do in abundance. When you and I went out and got stupid drunk when we were 22 no one cared. When he has a couple of cocktails there will always be someone there to record it and dissect it 5 ways to Sunday. He needs to learn that and either stop that kind of behavior or restrict it to such a degree that it's not worth mentioning any more. I think he can do this. If not then he'll be out of the league inside of 2 years.

The original question was, "Would this team be better with or without Gordon/Manziel/Gilbert?" The answer is obviously, we would be better off with them. But only if they become the players they are capable of being. As with most important things in life the answer is up to them.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one Clem.

Making Gordon the focus and #1 read for the QB was a huge mistake as well. I had hoped that wouldn't be done although it did work pretty well his first game back.

But you don't walk away from what had been so successful up to that point in the season.

What leads you to believe he is intelligent?

He absolutely is intelligent. His test results demonstrate that.

Whether or not he has common sense and drive are to be determined, but he is an intelligent kid.

What test results? Are you talking about the Wonderlic?

Have you ever seen or taken one?

It's not really a good indicator of intelligence. It's more of an educated guess when it comes to one's processing skills.

'Absolutely intelligent'? You do know what the word 'absolutely' means, right? I know word meanings isn't your strong suit.

yeah unfortunately Vers ends up right on most of these.

I'm hoping this regime ends this vicious cycle. Vers has to be proven Wrong! I'm sure he'll be happy to be wrong.

Gordon - my patience has grown thin. I did state the offensive flow seemed to be amiss since he came back. But one thing and a dig on Hoyer. Why lock onto Gordon? Did his incorrect routes ruin all the others. It was when Gordon came that I saw Hoyer locking onto to him and looking more n more like Weeden.

So he has to take some of the blame. I know I mentioned how important the FLOW is to the offense and not the ELITE WR. We need WRs. QB and Flow is more important.

jmho

I suppose that he could have lucked into the right answers, but i doubt it.

Here are some reports on Manziel from prior to the draft:

What to make of Johnny Manziel's 32 score on the Wonderlic? - CBSSports.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/nfl-d...n-the-wonderlic

The high score for Manziel doesn't come as a shock as he is clearly intelligent on the field with a quick-paced style that requires him to process everything at lightspeed. His smarts show with his pre-snap reads and quick eyes to survey and find favorable match-ups. As the point guard of the offense at Texas A&M, Manziel clearly understood what he saw and knew how to apply it on the field.

A test obviously doesn't tell the entire story and Manziel still has room to improve his decision-making in the pocket, but his positive Wonderlic score surely won't hurt his case as a top-flight NFL prospect.

----------------------------------------

@JohnMiddlekauff
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Talked to multiple assistant coaches who have had Johnny on private team visits. All raved about his intelligence.
3:18 PM - 10 Apr 2014

-------------------------------------------

There were other similar reports. (though it seems that they have now been buried under his recent events)

Further, listening to him speak at his pressers and such, he is not a stupid kid. he has intelligence .... he just seems to lack common sense, and obviously has not put in as much work as he should have.

He can't get through a presser without saying something 'sucks', or making an idiotic statement.

You think his pressers display intelligence? Seriously? What about them indicates intelligence?

And you didn't answer...have you ever seen or taken a Wonderlic test?

If so, what about it leads you to believe it's a dependable assessment of intelligence to the point where you would believe it 'absolutely' proves intelligence, or even serves as an adequate indicator?

My point is...he talks like an idiot, and acts like an idiot. Pretty much since he hit the national spotlight. And yet people don't hesitate to say he's 'intelligent' as if it's an obvious afterthought

I think part of the problem was that Gordon was running some incorrect routes. I think at first it was maybe an incomplete pass, or maybe a pick. They did feature him a lot. It turned out to be a mistake and they scaled back his targets. At first though it was like they were trying to get him up to speed in a hurry. I understand it, but it didn't pay off.

Now Hoyer starts hesitating, trying to see if Gordon goes the right way. This throws the timing off, and is not what is supposed to happen in the WCO. Ball is supposed to be thrown at the same time the receiver is going to make his cut.

So now you have more time for pressure to get to him, timing and rhythm off, basically a cluster, and thats what we saw. Gordon was probably the first read in his first game back.
I would imagine Hoyer could go elsewhere with the ball, but we really don't know who was open.

Don't know how often we were floating a back into the flat either due to pressure up the middle either.

Good point stetson..

I think someone (mac maybe) indicated that there were off field issues with Gilbert, I hadn't heard that before. I understand that he didn't put the time in and didn't work in practice as the Browns wanted him to, but that's a far cry from off field issues of the type that manziel is known for.

Hoyer as a seasoned veteran QB whose biggest asset might be decision process. Simply put should have went to his next Progression or check down. There is no playbook in the NFL except for possibly a developing Screen play - where its designed to stay onto to the Primary WR...stay on stay on stay on. A rookie mistake is not to go into progressions quick enough. What I'm saying things changed in HOYER when Gordon came back and that was one of them him locking onto Gordon way too long. Wrong route...move on get into his progression.

And I'm not sticking up for Gordon. I'm saying get a 2nd round or better and get rid of him. But some of the OFFENSIVE flow going South is on Hoyer.

jmho

Now this is a crazy thought, and I am probably gonna be ridiculed. But how about we trade Manziel, Gordon and a pick for Dez Bryant? The Cowboys have all kinds of salary cap problems, probably worse than anyone in the league. Dez Bryant's contract is up, and they have to franchise him at $12M or so, or sign him to a longterm deal. If Gordon doesn't screw up, he's just as a good a WR at a 10 percent of the price. Jerry gets Johnny and we toss in a pick.
Now, bring it on …..

We should also trade Taylor Gabriel, Connor Shaw and a pick to Green Bay for Rodgers.

PDR, I put a little more thought into it than that. The Cowboys can't keep restructuring Romo and they have major salary cap problems. Dez is about to get his first big contract.
I know it isn't likely, and it is just talk among fans.

No harm in just spitballing, but I just don't see even a sliver of realism in Gordon, Manziel and a pick for Bryant.

I would laugh and hang up the phone.

Wouldn't you agree though that a professional passing attack is developed as ALL of the receivers run their routes? Perhaps he wasn't as much locked on to Gordon as trying to see if he was going to screw up any of the other routes?

I follow ya. We are sort of saying the same thing. I'm saying this might have been why it happened, and your saying yeah it did and it was a mistake.

One thing i don't agree on is the 'seasoned vet' part. Hoyer has been in the league, but it was still his first year starting. Imo this was his rookie year, I still would love to see what he did with his 2nd.

But yeah, Gordon coming in threw a wrench in the gears for sure.

A few comments since I was last on the thread:

Clem and Pit: While I respect what you guys are saying, I have to disagree. I put no blame on Shanny. If you have supposedly "the best WR" in football, you get him the ball. Calvin Johnson has missed time and teams roll their coverages to him, but Detroit still throws him the ball. The difference is that Calvin is a pro and Gordon is not. Let's not blame Shanny. I fully believe that this guy is an outstanding coordinator. I think he is our most valuable coach. I don't want to lose this guy. Please, let's not run him out of town like we did Arians.


Otto: I almost had a heart attack when you said you agreed w/me and I laughed my ass off when you said that scared you. I thought your post was spot on and I also agree that I probably should not call him a punk. I'm sure he would make short work of me in a fight. I just don't like the way he handles himself. I have made plenty of mistakes in life. We all have. Most of us are contrite afterwards and want to make amends for our misdeeds. Gordon does not seem to get that. I liked what you had to say about Manziel. I agree w/you about all of that.

tab: Yeah, I hope I am wrong when I knock our guys. I've been wrong before. I thought Russell sucked and he turned out to be a darn good player. I thought Holcomb would be good, but he wasn't. I didn't like the Kirskey pick, but he looks good. I hated the Hughes pick, but man, that cat can play. He really helped us last week. Do you remember when Leon was let go? You made a post saying you were surprised that I was down and thought I would be happy. Bro, I am never happy to see a Brown fail. I hope all three of those guys prove me wrong.

Cowboys do have a lot of FA coming up, they do have some monies coming off that should help.

They will also look to restructure Melton and Smith and I bet they do Romo again, I think his hit is over 25 Mil next year iirc.

that said teams always seem to find the money to keep a player they really want.

Oh believe me, I don't want Shanny gone. I do believe after that second game though he should have had the ball spread out a little more.

Send them packing. They do not want to put in time to be a good pro.

'Enough talk, Browns should release Johnny Manziel and Josh Gordon'

http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...and-josh-gordon

By Pat McManamon | ESPN.com

BEREA, Ohio -- Every player on the field for the Cleveland Browns in Baltimore on Sunday showed what it means to be a professional.

Their two teammates who could not even show up for work on Saturday did not.

It’s time for the team to put words to action and release Josh Gordon and Johnny Manziel.

The team might miss Gordon’s talent, but it won’t miss the complete lack of professionalism the two have shown. Waiting on them to change is waiting for Tinker Bell. Enough.

The Browns should cut their losses and move on. The team will be better for it -- and the team is what it is supposed to be about.

"We're going to take our time here," coach Mike Pettine said Monday. "We're going to step away from the emotion of it all. Get some time off. Come back. We'll have all the players written up and evaluated and in a much less emotional environment evaluate the roster and talk about each position and what changes need to be made.

"That's something I'm sure all positions will be discussed. How do the players on our roster given where they are now ... should they be here or should they not be here?"

Teams have to stand for something. When a situation gets to this point, preaching without implementing principles is empty talk.

Manziel and Gordon missed their last Saturday of work. Various reports said several Browns were late Saturday, but a team source denied that. The only two missing were Manziel and Gordon. And both were missing for the large majority of the morning -- with security knocking on Manziel’s door to find him.

The Browns could try to trade Gordon; he has rare talent. But what other NFL team would give up something for a guy with two league suspensions and one team suspension, not to mention his speeding tickets and his DUI and all else that goes with him?

Guys are entitled to a life and to have fun; Manziel and Gordon surely weren’t the only two to go out Friday night. But they didn’t get up for work the next day. As Pettine said, their actions affected their job.

“You’d expect a middle-schooler to show up on time," tackle Joe Thomas said. "Why can’t we expect NFL players to show up on time?”

The cap hit for Manziel is not cheap -- $5.5 million -- but Gordon’s is a mere $600,000. The price for principle, and the team, is worth it. Add in Manziel's five first downs in seven quarters (two by penalty) and nine three-play possessions and Gordon averaging three receptions in his final three games (and his key drops against the Colts) and the cap cost becomes nearly irrelevant.

Rookie cornerback Justin Gilbert’s situation might be a little different, though his teammates' blistering words indicate it might not be. The team properly handled Gilbert being late for a meeting on Saturday night -- after the trip to Baltimore -- by making him inactive.

For this trio, the final weekend reached the point that the team suspended Gordon, and Pettine had Gilbert and Manziel sit in the locker room during the game. That sounded like a third-grader not allowed out of class for recess.

Owner Jimmy Haslam talked tough after Sunday's loss to Baltimore, saying players who don't show up for meetings or practice "disrespect the team, the coaches, the staff, the fans."

But if Haslam and the team turn a blind eye to what happened Saturday then what do the words really mean except that the Browns are merely enabling this behavior? This all harkens back to the day when former Brown Braylon Edwards was told not to go to an Ohio State-Michigan game, then helicoptered there and returned late. Edwards went on his merry way, dropping passes and letting his teammates and the fans down.

There were examples of professionalism all over the field in Baltimore, from Joe Haden playing with the flu to Karlos Dansby coming back from a knee injury to Andrew Hawkins playing after having his thumb in a splint all week. No fan can or should be let down in the least by the effort or dedication the team showed. They represented the Browns the way a team with a proud heritage should be represented.

Unfortunately they have “teammates” who don’t.

Everyone is responsible for their actions. Actions bring accountability. It’s time for the Browns to hold these “players” truly accountable.



(end)

I agree... if you want to be a pro.. act like a pro.

I don't. Waive Gordon and watch Cincy, who has a team of misfits, pick him up. Every year you'll face both Green and Gordon twice.

It is Gordon and Manziel decision to play. Browns have them on rookie salaries. They either step up or warm pine. It is not like they are eating up cap. My opinion, why give another team a chance or get lucky turning these two into professionals.

I go back and forth, like probably a lot of folks. Cut them now and send a message, we didn't get a thing from either one of them this year, Manziel probably can't be an NFL QB (he would need a overachiever's work ethic to surmount his limitations, and you just can't suddenly develop that), and Gordon is almost certain to flunk a pee test soon. You could make a point without risking much.
But, you could also glue them both to the bench for another year and sooner or later, they might realize that their only hope for the future lies in getting their acts together. It wouldn't cost much.
I don't think these two idiots are clubhouse cancers in the traditional sense, because I thin they are marginalized. The guys you have to worry about are guys like Ben Tate. Everyone in the locker room knows Gordon is an idiot and JFF is a punk. They don't have much influence.
I guess if you can trade them, explore it before their value craters even more.

I keep going back and forth, for sure, as every new "report" seems to be a different angle. IF they are true morale and clubhouse 'Debbie Downers' then they must go. IF their antics are more juvenile, then crack down on the discipline - if that means benching - then bench, fine, take away their phone!

We are a young team trying to build something good and can't withstand these types of antics at this point and we need everyone to commit. When they show up at practice - how are they doing? Do they put in the time to watch tape, get better, lift, etc..

Do they have the talent to consistently help the team win games?

I agree. Sitting them hurts them more than releasing them.

First, my first time being able to login to this site for months.

Bye to Manziel. Didn't like the pick from the beginning, but enjoyed the national attention. The conversation now seems to be how to re-program him. Why? He doesn't have the basic skills and after you remove the Manziel factor, what's left? I want a QB that gets the ball out very quickly...like Hoyer did in the beginning. Manziel will never be that QB.

Keep Gordon and Gilbert and hope they get it. They have the desired skill sets. Selfish immature players are going to be common, so we need to figure out how to manage them.

I'm not giving up on Hoyer. Patch up the OLine in front of him and I think he will return to QB he was before. Give me the Hoyer that we saw earlier...quick read, get the ball out quick. But get him some receivers with size and fight. Not smurfs.

It's a fun sentiment, but you don't release players that you could potentially trade.

Yep. Even players with attitudes can be assets. No sense giving away, and paying, a player you might be able to trade for something later on.

And points such as this are things that often times get lost in the emotion and fandom side of things.

I know I was the one who posted the article that says to release them, but I gotta agree with ya here.

Such drama.... It's almost like a TV show sometimes!!! You know?

But what do you think you could get? I would be surprised to get more than a 6th for Gordon with his track record. He is beyond the "change of scenery" phase of his idiocy.

Manziel is hard to say. I certainly don't think anyone would give up a first for him. I could see someone maybe give a third for his potential and team friendly contract.

Gilbert I would keep. Without bad apples around him, one player can be reclaimed.

Mike Williams had a big contract and troubled past (maybe not to extent of Gordon, then again Mike Williams never had a season like Gordon did in 2013) Williams went for I believe a 6th and had a big contract...I believe we can fetch a late 3rd or early 4th...I wish Benjamin had a market...I would dump him for a 6th and draft his replacement with it (Christian Jones from Bama maybe?)

j/c

I've steered clear of this thread while giving it some thought. Personally I think if we keep Gordon until the draft and he is not suspended yet again for pot or whatever other reason, then we have decent leverage for a trade or we could keep him for one last chance. If he's clean and it looks like he'll play next season at draft time, he could easily be bartered at the draft for max value. If he seems to be getting his act together at that point, then a real 1 year last chance would be good too.

Too Much Talent That We Desperately Need! Keep all three and hold them accountable!!! Like any professional organization, our veterans need to continue to step it up and actively engage in mentoring and developing these young talents. My opinion -- I don't think we've COMPLETELY done our part as an organization - ACTIVE engagement at every level.

Give them another chance, and only then "if you can't change the people, then change the people".

Even our pro bowl corner back had some issues (see link):
Joe Knows[/u][u]

I'm off the emotional roller coaster of a season now. I figure we keep them as trade bait and if nothing comes of that we see what they bring into camp. No need to get in a hurry now. I'm betting Gordon gets suspended again, Gilbert shows improvement, and Manziel spends another season holding a clip board. Of the three, I'm most concerned with Gilbert.

That's funny, he's actually the one I'm least worried about. He showed real promise at times last season. I'm not sure what the problem was, clearly it's one his teammates recognized and spoke up about.

I have to wonder, what if they'd brought it up in the press sooner.. Maybe mid season?

If we can only get a 6th, then we take it. No sense in releasing someone who you can get something for in a trade. I think we can do better than a 6th, but even a 6th is something. We can use to draft a kicker or take a flyer on someone we would normally hope to snag as a UDFA.

With a trade, we can control where he goes on top of getting something in return.

PDR asked me why I believe Manziel to be intelligent. It is a fair question although fairly hard to answer. Add in the fact that when PDR asks a question like that you know he just wants to show you that you're wrong while at the same time making (or trying to make) you look stupid and the question becomes even harder to answer. But making myself look stupid is one of my strong points so I'll give it a shot.....

Can I point to a test or something similar to say, see, that proves he's smart? No, not really. He did reasonably well on the Wonderlic, as I recall, but as with any IQ-type test that can be misleading. What I have seen when he speaks is certainly not a Rhodes Scholar level speech pattern. But he doesn't have to be. He gets his point across reasonably well even if he takes a detour or two along the way. He knows the right thing to say even when he sometimes is doing just the opposite. I chalk that up to immaturity not stupidity. The fact that he sometimes speaks like he's from the 'hood and not from the rich suburbs of Dallas I attribute to the fact that he's young and has spent a lot of time with teammates that are from the 'hood. Again, possibly annoying to some but not necessarily an indication of a lack of intelligence. The on-field intelligence will come with repetition. Or it won't. It's far too early to tell, IMO.

At this point, I feel it necessary to mention that before the Draft he was pretty low on my QB's I'd like to see in Cleveland list. I felt that Bridgewater or Carr would have had much better success, at least initially, than Johnny would have. But we didn't draft those guys. We drafted JM. Once he became a Brown I felt, as I do with most of our draft picks, that it was a more satisfying course of action to support the pick/player than it would be to spend most of my time bitching because they didn't pick "my guy".

Anyway, at this point in time it's fruitless for us, as fans, to rant on and on about how they need to cut this guy or that guy loose before the sun sets. They are not going to cut Manziel or Gilbert before they, at least, run them through another training camp. It just wouldn't make sense for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is these guys have real talent that can be useful to the Browns if the guys can pull their heads out of their collective asses. I think, well, hope, they can.

Gordon is another story. As much as his talent is obvious and is a pleasure to watch when he's playing like a true professional his personal demons will be his ruin. And they can take the team down with him. In this case, the risk outweighs the possible reward. He must be cut loose before he infects the locker room any further than he already has. I wish this was not the case. Hell, in two years he might be looked at as the best WR in the league. Or he could be back selling cars. Neither would surprise me. But whichever one it is, it shouldn't be in Cleveland.
JMHO

Not sure why Manziel would fetch more than Gordon in a trade. Gordon has at least produced in the NFL. I could see a team who thinks they're a WR shy of a Super Bowl giving up a 4th round pick. I mentioned the Pats earlier, and they might be able to win a Super Bowl without an elite WR, but imagine if Brady was throwing to a focused Josh Gordon. Scary.

Man, did someone hack your account?

I agree w/almost everything you said.

That's because I'm such an agreeable guy.....

Good point. I probably should have said something like "Of the three, I'm most interested in how Gilbert responds." He's still an interesting prospect to me. Gordon? I can take him or leave him. Same with Manziel. Of course it would be nice for Manziel to prove us all wrong and all that but I'm really running short on wishful thinking these days.

As it is, my Browns looked better this year than the have in a long time. How many days till training camp?

How about a fifth...a fifth of whiskey. About all you could get for these losers.
Plus you need it to drown your sorrows rooting for a team continuously run by a bunch of clowns.

Johnny & Josh partying in Aspen ... this can only end well.



http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/01/johnny_manziel_and_josh_gordon_1.html

http://bustedcoverage.com/2015/01/16/johnny-manziel-partied-with-josh-gordon-in-aspen/

That’s the same Josh Gordon who was suspended to end the season for partying with Manziel.

Is that responsible journalism? If anything was established is some doubt that the two were together partying before that last game. How can they say that as a matter of FACT???

All I saw was a couple of pictures of normal people having fun. Ooooo I saw some beer and wine involved? My goodness.

Actually I would hope Gordon spends more time partying with Manziel and not with his normal circle of friends who have done what? Landed him like 10 failed drug tests?!?

Look at those pics...ooooo partying. This is beyond ridiculous!

well.....if you try to look at it from a positive angle, atleast the QB and WR are gonne build chemistry and trust with each other?

i tried.

Interesting that you seem to blame Gordon's friends more than you blame Josh for his suspensions. And while I'd normally grant you that this is a non-story ... for these guys, at this point in time, in this locale, its a story.

Maybe they are trying to build trust with the chemistry of a nice Riesling.

Tab's got a point.

if we was just dealing with two guys that just parties way too hard, then really, theres no big issue.

but gordons friends, combined with his mentality, like to party with weed. thats an issue.

right now we need to take this one step at a time. manziel's friends is i guess technically an upgrade over gordon's.

i'm really just trying to stay positive with all this. i have no idea whats going to happen to these guys this off season.

I am sure Tom Landry, Chuck Knoll, Bill Parcells and even Bill Belicick would say "party on boys".

They look wasted.

Interesting that you seem to blame Gordon's friends more than you blame Josh for his suspensions.

I stated a fact. Of course Gordon has responsibility for his actions. My bad I thought that was obvious. But also in the years he has been here discussing on this board it has been Josh with his Circle of friends who openingly have POT with them in his car, toking away at parties that Gordon had to get away from partying with his circle of friends to have at least a shot of staying clean.

Blame? Who cares about blame. I'm talking reality here. Take Gordon away from his HOME TOWN environment where they as a crew are really into their pot. Put him with the Wine and Beer Crowd. He has a better shot at staying clean...HE as in his choices stands a better shot.

I think some of you pee on posters thoughts just cause you have a loose bladder

I wouldn't necessarily take it on faith that Gordon has abandoned his stoner friends, just because he likes drinking with Manziel. I also wouldn't necessarily assume that Johnny and his friends are strangers to the chronic. Its not a zero-sum proposition.





I don't even know what that means. I wasn't peeing on anything, just posting an observation based on what you posted. I tried to couch it politely by saying "you seem to blame ...", but you're pretty quick to take offense, imo.

How is hanging out with Johnny Owl Eyes a technical upgrade?

well maybe he will not do pot anymore.



thats a upgrade right????

Completely agree with Swish and tab. As long as Johnny didn't bring any $20 bills, I'd have to say I'm glad he's got Josh there with him. How many people on here have said Gordon needs new friends, now he is hanging out with new people and the media wants to bash it. Hmm. Pretty lame if you ask me.

Time will tell

so far manziel and his friends, haven't heard a run in with gordon's kryptonite: weed.

so its an upgrade.

I have defended Manziel, but I am really getting the feeling that he has a serious alcohol problem.

It's one thing to drink a bit to have a good time and it's another thing for it to start to take control of your life.

If these guys were winning(and they still might) no one would care about their partying. The partying has been going on forever. Remember Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Sonny Jurgensen and even Bobby Layne in the 50's just to name a few. Difference is those guys won. That's the bottom line with most.

i'm concerned too.

but its the offseason. these guys are on vacation.

man when i was on leave, i can't tell you how stupid trashed i got. it was crazy. but when it was time to go back to work, i had to lay it off.

so this is manziel's first offseason. lets see what happens come OTA's, training camp.

gordon on the other hand. he's walking on egg shells. he knows he can't even get threatened with someone calling the cops or whatever sympathy the coaches and FO was gonna give him goes out the window.

he needs to stay away from weed. and he needs to make sure ANYBODY but him is driving.

if he can survive just one offseason without incident, then who knows, he MIGHT just get it.

i'm expecting the worst, hoping for the best.

i get that. but its not like manziel started the entire season TO win.

lets see if they can make it through the offseason without embarassing themselves.

Gilbert I would hang onto Gordon and JF would get the Ax.

Gordon has some trade value and JF none at all so I just cut him...

If he were serious about his craft he would be in Cleveland working on his game, instead he is in South Beach followed by Aspen doing what he came here for partying.

The message IMO needs to be clear if your here for the party the party is OVER. It's about football and being the best anything else get the hell out.

We got picks for Colt McCoy. We could definitely get picks for Manziel.

Take what you can get and move on. He is a loser and this franchise has had enough of those over the years. If he was really interested in improving he would be putting in the work other franchises are watching and they wouldn't give up anything for him, or at least I wouldn't.

What a waste......................

If that is the case, then can't the Browns step in? Might be a good time to nip this in the bud...not sure how you go about it though...

Substance Policy

Unless Manziel shows up drunk to a team function I don't see how any of this is provable.

I was thinking missing meetings due to partying the night before...I agree though I have no clue as to how you go about this...

He was late to treatment. Gordon missed a walkthrough. Neither are huge offenses, it is just that guys that committed them that make it a big deal.

I can't prove it. I think I was clear about that. I thought I said........"I get the feeling..." or something like that.

Not sure how long you have been around the boards, but how many times over the years have I been wrong about stuff like that?

I am not basing my opinion because I saw the bottles in that photo. It's a culmination of things. There is a ton of isolated incidents that point in that direction.

I think the biggest thing that makes me think he might have a problem is that he makes comments about becoming more serious and the very next night he is out on the town. He has to know that every person w/a cell phone is gunning to take his picture, yet he can't seem to stop himself.

I have some first-hand and a ton of second-hand experience on how alcoholics behave. I am seeing a pattern w/the kid.

I could be wrong. It's only speculation. We'll see what transpires.

I don't know what you are responding to, but it seems pretty reckless to speculate on whether or not someone is an alcoholic based on what the media has found out.

LOL..........reckless speculation on a message board. That would be a first.

Hard to tell Vers. I mean the kid literally has a pic taken wherever he is - heck even the bathroom.

We see him not fall down drunk (this year the 22 year old Manziel) he is with what seems to be sensible fun. Beer and wine. I don't see shots being put down and falling on a table or something. Looks like some good clean fun.

When he relaxes it sure seems like he enjoys his beer. I have two boys - they both played sports but they both could be referred to as Nerds. They love their Beer. Not an every day thing but if they go out or have friends over - they buy their different kinds of beer and enjoy.

People with drinking PROBLEMS...I would think the tell tale is the DUI not Insta gram pics of bottle in front of him along with others in the crowd.

Personally I actually see a difference in the pictures showing perhaps actually maturation. Lets face it he will be in that BACHELOR form till he meets a young lady and she tames him down.

Almost two months.

Way to go, Johnny.



I can't say whether or not he has a drinking problem. But he certainly has a problem with common sense and/or intelligence.



Staggers the imagination.

The mind sees what it wishes to see.

Does he know how to enjoy life outside of football without alcohol? I no longer think so. Its a real issue for a lot of folks from highschool to the pros and beyond.

The mind sees what it wishes to see.

Just be sure to look in the mirror when u say that.

I see no lack in judgement to be with a few select friends with some good looking young ladies in Aspen for fun and games sitting outside with about a hundred other youths doing the same exact thing. Having fun eating a meal and having some Wine and Beer. All during a closed session of your Organization where all are on vacation.

These pictures seem so so docile compared to the wild party in Las Vegas - where I get off saying possibly we can see some maturity. Just cause he doesn't take pictures and have them go out on the internet for 99% of his time. Oh look this is me reading a book. This is me studying the new playbook, hopefully by February we will have one.

Those pictures in Aspen look about as All American as I can hope a 22 year old can be.

we get it you dislike him. you wish to portray our FO and new Coaching staff as a joke. You wish to believe what most of the Bozo's wish to portray the Browns as dysfunction. But having a NORMAL (normal if you got the dough) good wholesome time on vacation.

I choose not too. I see the best record we have had in 7 years. I see the best record we had in the first season of a new HC.

What I do not see is a Sure fire established Franchise QB. This is true. The plan was to never play JM in 2014. We do not know what is in store for that position - we will know more after FA and the draft. But unless we re-sign Hoyer it appears JM will be the King of the Hill and somebody will have to knock him off of the hill.

QB is the only negative I see of this team. Manziel is not established yet. If he can will still be determined 6-7 quarters will not define anything.

jmho

unless we re-sign Hoyer it appears JM will be the King of the Hill and somebody will have to knock him off of the hill.

what if we do resign hoyer? how do you see that shaking out?

if we resign hoyer, i think we draft winston or mariota if by god's grace they fall to us at 12.

to me that would mean they have zero faith in manziel.

Any other QB/wr combo going toaspen we would be like, yea thats a great bonding experience. Hope it transfers to the field. With these two, its great they go to party in a state where marijuana is legal lol. I worry about both.

On the flip side, Johnny has the talent to be a really good QB in this league. He got his feet wet this year and struggled and that was probably the best thing for him. The doubters will break u or motivate you. This was really big for his future. Can he come back and put in the time required and do the things that are required for the position.

Can he come back and put in the time required and do the things that are required for the position.

for our sake i hope so. if he doesn't put the time in this year though, i doubt he will ever get it.

He actually doesn't, which is why drafting him in the first was a massive blunder.

I can't think of a single elite trait he possesses at the NFL level. He's undersized, inaccurate, can't read a defense, constantly has happy feet and poor mechanics, throws ducks unless conditions are perfect, isn't very bright, etc., etc. He was an uphill climb from day one, and should have never been picked before the 3rd-4th round.

what if we do resign hoyer? how do you see that shaking out?

I would consider him the returning starter...he would start out the king on the hill and have to be knocked off that hill.

JM would be given every opportunity to do so - as would any top 50 draft pick.

Trade or FA QB brought in with high regard is a different story. Actually I wouldn't think we would sign Hoyer and another FA QB.

Hoyer signs unless its only because he couldn't get a FA bite anywhere else and he comes back to us for a contract. But if we go after Hoyer and have him sign prior to the FA market. He's the king of the hill.

jmho

Sadly, I think you may be right. I didn't want us to draft Jm but when we did I got behind him 100%. I still hope he will become a good qb but I have my doubts.

that's exactly how i would like to see it. is this years FA really any better than hoyer anyway? i really want to see him back and have the new QB coach work on some of the fundamentals that put him in his slump. something happened to him mentally that can be fixed. other than that i truely believe he's a winner.

Agreed. Bh's best chance for success is to re-sign with us. It might be our best chance too until we can get someone better.

Keep in mind I am not endorsing or suggesting that is the way to go. Just answering your question.

I will leave this up to our NEW OC, Pettine & Farmer.
They know exactly what went on who is to fault. If they simply know that Hoyer is not an answer they will not sniff a 2nd contract.

When Hoyer was good I loved it. Him deteriorating just didn't make much sense. He just might not be Accurate enough for what we need.

jmho and not much more.

He is a guy. He isnt going to win you any games and the best you can hope for is he doesnt lose them for you. Backup at best.

Him deteriorating just didn't make much sense

i agree with that. that's why i say it was mental for what ever reason, and there's quite a few reasons to choose from. if he had it going before there's no reason to doubt that he couldn't get it back.
thanks for the response.

Perfectly said imho

It was perfect except for the fact, he has a strong arm, tremendous mobility, had the highest completion percentage of any QB drafted last year when throwing from the pocket and he is really good when outside the pocket throwing on the run. Other than those silly little things, it was a flawless post by PDR.

Now, now Mourgrym...don't go interjecting facts into a pissing match.

Had BH not regressed so incredibly, JM would have never played...then...we would have no idea what we actually have in JM.

Sort of exactly how it is right now.

I wouldnt say strong arm but ill give you the mobility.

AS far as, highest completion percentage?????? thats a stretch of a stat to use. Either way.... he was overrated, undersized, and under experienced coming out of college with questionable maturity issues. AND He play with Mike EVans, who bailed him out of many situations.

That's not a stretch.

In his final year of college, he had the highest completion percentage of any other FBS QB when throwing from the pocket. That means that he made plays in the pocket, which is what you want your QB to do most of the time.

I actually think that Manziel's biggest problem was that he expected the NFL to come as easily as college and high school did. He came into the NFL as a 22 year old kid. He had major maturity issues. He now sees that he has to grow up, and that he has to work hard if he wants to succeed at this level. Whether or not he will do so is the huge question, but I think that he does have the ability to play at this level.

Yea highest completion percentage inside the pocket is just one of those stats that you really have to interpret. I mean its not like he has the highest completion percentage of any QB in the history of the SEC, career wise. O darn, I was wrong again, he does. I guess i just have to learn how to interpret stats.

I thought we were talking NFL not college w his first year in the league compared to other rookies.

If it's true that that turns out to be his biggest problem, it's fixable with hard work, film study and practice...

the question is, will he recognize it and put in the work to fix it? He's done nothing since he's been here that leads me to believe he'll do that.

I think the first key to him being successful, would be him just being able to calm the hell down on the field..

The prototypical "needs to get used to NFL speed" thing first.. But he just needs to be confident.. Knowing what he has to do.. If that's only installing a couple reads with a dump off fine.. You can build from that..

The best thing that will help him is a great running game, and improvement on defense.. Pick up a few WRs and a nice TE and you're hopefully on your way..

True. But, that's also true of any quarterback - in the nfl, in college, in high school.....

NO!!!!

1. Johnny Manziel* 68.95 2012 2013 Texas A&M
2. Tim Couch* 67.15 1996 1998 Kentucky
3. A.J. McCarron* 66.86 2010 2013 Alabama
4. Tim Tebow* 66.43 2006 2009 Florida
5. Connor Shaw* 65.48 2010 2013 South Carolina

So what is your point .... that a college QB with a high completion percent from the pocket will fail in the pros?

You always rail against false equivalence ... well, there it is. Manziel may fail, but it is not because he had too high of a completion % in college, or that he compared to the other guys listed in that one regard.

My point is that it's ridiculous to cite someone's college completion percentage as evidence that he's an accurate passer.

Windows are huge in college. You can throw ahead, behind, high or low and stand a decent chance of making a completion.

In the NFL, that window slams shut, and what one could do in college won't translate.

The rule-of-thumb is to expect a 10% drop from college to the NFL...

Our other lil trooper, Colt McCoy, had a 70.3 comp pct at UT. Granted it wasn't the SEC, but still, 70.3% is pretty impressive. Too bad its doesn't translate to the NFL, for the reasons you mentioned.

Whose rule of thumb?

It's a generalization. Who knows where it started and I don't remember where I heard/read it, but I recall it was from a recognized source...

j/c

According to the of some our posters, we should draft guys who have a terrible completion percentage from the pocket in college and who also has a very low Wonderlic score, because after all, guys who score lower on that test are actually smarter than the guys who score high on it.

But no, they're not haters.

I don't think anyone is saying completion % isn't important, but it has to be viewed in the context that produced it ... college defenses simply do not provide enough of a challenge to read-option spread offenses at the college level. They're playing pitch-and-catch.



Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.

- Vin Scully

I think the point being made is that with the read option and the college game, while accuracy is an indicator, it's not an iron clad cure all.

If so, we drafted one of, if not THE best QB's of all time in Colt McCoy. That's actually the first thing I think of when I hear that stat.

I think a QB's improvement from one year to the next is every bit as, if not more important than anything. JFF met that criteria too. It just goes to show that drafting a QB is a huge gamble no matter which stats you look at IMO

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Pit, I have been very critical of Manziel's play in the NFL. However, there are people on this board almost acting like a high completion percentage from the pocket in college is a bad thing and having a high score on the Wonderlic test means you are stupid.

It's beyond ignorant. There is no logic to the thought process. It's just more crap from the same crappy posters.

"Almost" as in 'no one has ever remotely even implied that'.

Dawgtalkers..

Where Everyone is Someone..

Almost is No One..

No one is Everyone..

I certainly don't disagree with you that many cherry pick what they wish to dwell on and ignore what they wish to ignore.

JFF did a good job throwing from the pocket his last year at A&M and it is a very important factor in evaluating a QB.

Cool.

And bro, I am not saying he is a good pocket passer. I haven't seen it in the pros.

My point is that when a couple of guys are so insecure that they need to diminish everything a guy does in order to make themselves look right....well......let's just say that we need to at least question where they are coming from. Everyone guesses right at times.

However, there is a difference between guessing and making a sound evaluation.

The rule-of-thumb is to expect a 10% drop
First I ever heard that. You mean from college to rookie season drop?

PDR. If you read the Pats report on Manziel. It was assessed that he refused to check down and would always go for the gusto. So what complimented that stat was the fact he didn't dink and dunk like many on that list.

The other thing comes to actually watching the games. What impressed me was not JM's stats or his accomplishments. It was that he did these things against great foes and he did NOT have the - 5,6 second pocket of a Lienhart (USC) he was in congestion a lot, his backside was in decent hands but that was it. What I also was impressed was the many targets and completions with NFL type Windows. Not that 3-5 yard spread from the CB. I'm sure there were occasions but in the big games against some great defenses. He had many NFL type conditions in his pocket integrity and small windows to the WRs.

Of course this has to get transitioned to the NFL. He is a project. But you diss stats when they don't go your way. Then you bring up arbitrary conditions that are very general in College to NFL and then you INCORRECTLY staple them to JM when actually it was the complete opposite. You know - make stuff up...lol

smh