DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Secularists Erect ‘Holiday’ Exhibits in Florida, Michigan, Angering Believers

Okay it could be extraterrestrials, Om Zuba Zuba or whatever. But I'd say they better hope there's a higher life form than man who cares enough to help save us of our own self destruction.

Is that better?

All very good points.

Do you think that as an American I don't have the Right to fight for what I think is right and to work against laws I think should not be laws?

Do you think that as a Christian American I should not be allowed to vote for those who support my views? Is my fighting against what I see as wrong thinking the same as forcing my religion on others?

So would you support the rights of adulterers to marry multiple women legally with Government approval?

J/C

Do dogs have souls?

No. They have Pads.

I'm curious, what's your serious answer? No?

My serious answer to you is "Geez man, I dunno!
I sure do hope to see my puppy in the next life though.

Supposedly, all dogs go to Heaven. Right?

Well, Thats what the movie said.

Probably only the Christian ones tho.

j/c

Pit was right. (did I just say that??????)

My job is NOT to judge others. My job is to make sure I am being/living right with the Bible and my Christianity. Truthfully, that's a full time job.

Love the sinner, hate the sin? Yup - and accordingly, there are many things in my life I dislike and need work on/with.

I'm not much of a Bible quoter, but here goes: Why worry about the speck in someone else's eye when you have a plank/log in your own?

But the Bible also says something along the lines of "believers should spread the word."

So, I shouldn't judge others, but I should spread the word. That's a tall task - to be able to spread the word, but to do it in a manner that comes across as non-judgmental.

I'm not perfect - that's the first thing, and last thing, I need to worry about.

Yes! I like what you said!

Just a few problems tho...

We must judge people and situations every day of our lives.
Do I lend this guy money? Does he seem honest?
Is that guy with the angry face and the crowbar coming at me? Is he angry?
Is that guy alright to babysit my kids?

We are not to judge if people are going to hell or heaven tho. That is God's job, not ours.

I think that if people want to be offended, they will find a way to be.

In Luke 19:23-26, Jesus said: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it. 25What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self? 26Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."

To me, that is pretty clear that we are to spread the word and message of Jesus.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Do you think you'd live your life differently if you knew there isn't a Heaven?

I would hope not, however I think that I might think twice, for example, before putting myself in danger for another's sake. (as I think that most honest people would also admit)

I am glad that I don't have to worry about that.

1. That depends upon the law in question and its interpretation. In this case, we're talking about a law that makes it legal for gays to be married. It is not a law that forces churches to perform those marriages. In this instance, the church in question is still free to operate as it wants. In my scenario, all entities involved have the freedom to make the choices as they see fit; in your scenario, you reserve the right to deny these other Americans their civil rights. To me, one is acceptable; the other is discriminatory... and is not acceptable.

2a. No. As an American, you should always be allowed to vote your conscience for whatever candidate you choose. You should also be allowed to not vote at all, if that be your choice. 2b. Trap question- and a non-starter in this case. You are not forcing your religious beliefs down another American's throat, but you ARE advocating for the restrictions of another's civil rights. They are two different things. One is acceptable in a secular society which allows freedom of (and from) religion; the other is not.

Do you hear a common a theme being sung here? Do you see the consistency of my position yet?

3. Another trap question. First, we must define the use of the word "support." If you mean advocate with active lobbying, then no- I wouldn't "support" it in that way. If by "support," you mean accept it as the law of the land, without adopting it as my personal lifestyle choice, then yes, I would. I would never choose it for my own life, but if the government said it was perfectly legal to practice polygamy, I'd stay the hell out of those peoples' business, and live my life according to my personal code of ethics and values. One thing I would never do is actively lobby for the government to overturn that law because it allows other Americans a choice I'd never make for myself. That's not my place as a citizen.

I hope this gives you some insight as to my take on civil liberties and rights. I'm simply NOT into denying others what I feel all should have. My Parents fought too hard to overcome wretched race-based laws for me to start practicing my own brand of hypocrisy now.

Like I said before: either we're all free, or none of us is free. For me, this is absolute.

I sure hope that my dogs will all go to heaven.

As far as whether or not they have souls? I don't know. What is the evidence of a soul? The ability to love? To sacrifice for someone else? If so, then I think that they just might. Dogs have moved into extreme danger to protect their humans. I think that dogs demonstrate affection for humans, and even maybe love for their human packs.

I was actually thinking about this, in another way, the other day. I was thinking about the most perfect of animals being sacrificed to God on altars in the Old Testament. The Bible says that new earth will be populated by animals of all kinds, and that they will all live in peace with one another. I wondered what better animals for God to start with then those who were sacrificed to Him?

As far as dogs, they have been such a huge part of the lives of people,and are loved by so many, that I think that almost they have to be there. Whether or not my dogs, specifically, will be there? I sure hope so!

Actually, you're doing it right, especially if you look at exactly how Christ lived his life. Those fundamentalist Christians who pass judgment on others quickly have it wrong, IMO, as much as those who make condemning consernations against Christianity have it wrong. You see both perversely on this thread.

agreed.

The insight I get from your statement is the fact your parents fought for the noble cause of all men being equal and my hat is off to their work.
You on the other hand seem to feel that every kind of human behavior should be supported as a civil right as long as the law allows. Is this not a lack of moral character on your part. Right and wrong in the name of his holiness the law?
Is this the god you serve?
I on the other hand am not deceived, My God says it's a sin, well thats good enough for me. I won't support it.

Either we are all free to do whatever our hearts desire or none of us is free. Could be the words of a Roman Senator.

-I know I'm blunt about it but I don't know how else to ask.

Has the church FORCED their beliefs on government? I know they have protested, fought, and influenced, but I don't recall ever FORCING.

Ahhh, somebody gets it.

Seems to me if you share your beliefs or question the beliefs of others, on a discussion board, it doesn't make you a zealot.

If some of us see sin and point it out, we are not forcing anyone to do or think anything. We are simply pointing it out and getting feedback. To us it is an important subject.

There are like 100 different Christian Religions alone and we don't agree with each other.

No, it's not- at least as far as I'm concerned. It's simply a refusal to pass moral judgement on things or people that I have no expertise in or authority over.

From your description (re: the word "behavior"), I'm assuming that you believe the act of two people of the same gender sharing their bodies is a willful act done in active defiance of "God's Law." I do not. I believe that sexual preference is determined by biology, not ideology- and that gay people are born that way, not made that way. If my assumptions are correct (and I think they are), then it's anti-American for me to actively work to keep them from being treated like the rest of us.

Additionally, you seem to have quite a binary way of interpreting my intentions: that if I'm not actively against something, I must be actively in favor of it... 40- my mind simply does not work that way. The fact that I'll accept the ruling of congress and the Supreme Court that allows such "behaviors" does not automatically make me some sort of fan. It makes it none of my business. And since it's none of my business, I shouldn't be getting in the way of their business. It's not my right.

Like I said before, I'd never choose a polygamist lifestyle for myself even if it were legal, simply because it's not right for the way I want to live MY life. Our exclusivity unto each other is one of the things that makes my marriage special above all other relationships... and I value that more than anything a different life could ever offer. I feel the same way about sexual preference issues: gays being allowed to marry takes nothing away from the quality of my marriage, nor does it impinge upon my pursuit of happiness in any way. When it comes to US law, these are civil issues, not theocratic ones. That's why we have the separation as we do... to keep some of us from imposing restriction upon others of us, based upon personally-held beliefs. You may believe that it's God's will that you actively crusade against these people, but your actions would be directly antithetical to the tenets that shape our nation.

Here's the bottom line: I would never dream of standing between you and your beliefs, even if I shared only part or even none of them. It's not my place as an American citizen to impose my will upon you. Likewise, I'm in the same position when it comes to people who live a life that you find in need of repair or reprimand.

It really IS about The Law, and nothing but the law. I believe that gays should have all the same rights and priviledges as the rest of us... not because they're gay, but because they are Americans. It really is as simple as that. I don't have to approve, advocate for or embrace their lives to want them treated as equal Americans. It makes us stronger, not weaker as a nation if we uphold the Bill of Rights for ALL our citizens.

As for moral character: I believe that my moral character is determined by the choices and actions I take in the living of my own life. I hold myself to a higher code of behavior than the law of the land because that's how I was raised. This is true whether I meet your definition of a moral, righteous person or not.

You're using semantics and a false singular object to try to disprove his argument. The reality is there's no such thing as a singular "church" makes it impossible to answer your question. Granted, you are using Swish's own words against him, but the message was clear even if it wasn't written clearly.

To answer your question to the best of my ability considering their is no singular church of the United States, yes. The Christian people have forced their beliefs on government. They've not only done that, but worse. Or did we forget about Slavery.

40, stop posting. Take your L. You've just insinuated that Clem is a baseless man. Honestly, just stop talking. Clem is by far the best poster on this forum and I'd argue to say best person. His life work, teaching the youth (IIRC not always the best off youth) the joy and wonders of music, should speak for his character and his morals. Honestly you insinuating Clem is base, because he doesn't share your Nazi-Authoritarian philosophy on "God's" law, is the most despicable, irritating and over the top thing I've ever read on this forum. Considering that I don't have Anarchy on ignore, it's not a small task to do.

I used to think I wasn't judgmental, then I merged onto the freeway.

Ok Clem, I think I get where you are coming from now. Thanks for your patients. Respect.

I do question this statement...

The fact that I'll accept the ruling of congress and the Supreme Court that allows such "behaviors" does not automatically make me some sort of fan. It makes it none of my business. And since it's none of my business, I shouldn't be getting in the way of their business. It's not my right.

How would you react if Congress and the Supremes passed a law taking away the Civil Rights of African Americans due to recent troubles? Would you be morally against but ignore and accept it as law?

You stop posting CHS, I don't know Clem from the man on the moon but I am lucky to get the chance to get to know him now.
Seems to be an educated and good man who has shown patients and manners in our conversation.
Something he could teach you.

Which part?

I'd probably proceed as My Parents did... with peaceful demonstration, positive activism, and a eye toward getting my voice heard in DC. Those things worked in the past, when folks had less to work with than we do now. My blog would probably get more of my attention than it does now (read: blow UP! ), and I'd be using the power of ideas and the pen to sway the country back from such an awful course.

At the same time, I would also understand it if others were content to let me fight the fight. I'd appreciate their assistance as did my forbears, but would not shame them in any way, should they choose to sit on the sidelines. There are more than enough people willing to do the whole "If you're not for us, you're against us" routine (more of that 'binary thinking' I talked about earlier), so they don't need me adding my voice to that strident yet counterproductive chorus.

Even though I've answered your question to the best of my ability, I still have to call it out as a false equivalence, given the context of our previous exchanges. In this context, rights already granted are being rescinded, which is a new wrinkle that we now discuss. In the previous example, rights have not yet been granted, and some Americans are actively working to see that they never do get granted. Both are wrong, in my opinion... and should be anathema to a republic that espouses equality and freedom as its central founding principle. But they are not the same.

In all of this, I've been consistent down the line. The fight that AA's underwent in the 50's and 60's is exactly what the LGBT Americans are engaged in now. It doesn't matter whether it's color, national origin, sexual orientation or anything else... if you're an American, you deserve the same rights as all other Americans. Anything less than that tarnishes our reputation as a world leader, keeps us from legitimately owning any international "moral high ground," and ultimately leaves us short of the ideals espoused in the Bill of Rights.

As long we continue to do this (deny basic rights to legal citizens), we can never be the America that was outlined in our founding charters. Until we're all free, none of us is free.

Thanks for the time and honesty Clemdawg.

I have a question.

A young child, maybe 9 or 10, gets into a car. Somehow he manages to get the car started. The windows are part way down, but the doors are locked, and he gets the car into gear. The car starts moving, starting out slowly, and picking up speed.

The car leaves the child's street, and somehow he manages to steer it clear of other obstacles just enough to continue picking up speed. To him it is a game, as he careens off of other cars. The child has no idea the danger he is in. All he has to do is turn the key off ...... or put the car in park, or even just step on the brake .... but he does not know what to do ...... or maybe doesn't even care.

The car picks up speed, and heads toward the freeway on-ramp at rush hour, and almost certain death, or injury, for the child.

You see all of this happening. Maybe you are the only person who sees it happening. What do you do? Do you stand idly by while the child heads towards almost certain death for himself and maybe others .... or do you do everything you can to try and save him from disaster and death? Do you cry out, telling the child what to do to save himself? Do you run after the car, and at risk to yourself, try to jump on the car so you can get in and get the car under control? Do you maybe take your own car, and try to get ahead of that car so you can block the child's path, and stop the car?

Or do you stand idly by, and say "what a shame it is that the child will probably die"? Or maybe "I know that the car is heading for destruction, but that child had a choice to make, and he made it. Let him live with it"? Possibly would you just say, "It's none of my business"?

Or, would you stop at nothing to try and save the life of that child?

Why is a child's eternal life any different? (or even the eternal life of an adult) If a Christian truly believes that a person must accept Christ and repent of their sins, or else die for those sins, then why would that Christian stand idly by and watch, callously and heartlessly, and just accept that the person has made their choice? Maybe that person does not even truly know the message of the Bible. Maybe they have heard ... once or twice .... but the message has been drowned out by the clatter of everyday life? No matter the situation, if a Christian believes in Jesus Christ, and that He is the ONLY way to heaven, is it not an act of love and compassion to act to try and help them to accept Christ, rather just just saying "Oh well, that person will die"?

I understand that some people are uncomfortable with the subject. However, if a Christian truly believes in Jesus Christ, and salvation through the Grace of God, then isn't it selfish of that person to remain quiet, to stand idly by as a child of God destroys himself? I do not believe that God wants us to stand quietly off by ourselves, worshiping in secret and so quietly that no one outside of that worship would ever hear The Word of God. If God is a loving Father, as I believe Him to be, then wouldn't He want those who have been saved to do everything they can to try and help save others?

I am sure that there is very little more that grieves God more than one of His children who has some basic belief in God, but who never takes the step to accept His gift of salvation. God is ultimately just, and even if it pains Him horribly, He will follow His own Law. That is why He sent His own Son to save us from our sins. he sent His only Son to die for us all. It doesn't matter who we are. We can be rich or poor, healthy or sick, educated or not, Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, or any other race. God wants us all to come to Him, but He will not force us to do so. It must be our own decision.

God made Himself a sacrifice for our sins in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He took our pain and punishment for us. It is up to us to get this message out to everyone we can. God wants all to be saved, even though He knows that many will reject Him. He mourns for those lost, but he did not give up on those He saved, and we must not give up in trying to help others to find salvation either.

It is that important. It is too important to stand idly by and watch other children of God perish, because we are afraid we might offend them, or their human beliefs.

Wow, Preach it Brother

The main difference is the possible belief that the child and the danger are real, even when their part of an analogy to prove the existence of God.

I could as easily ask, what would you do if you knew someone who refused to see reality and made behavior choices based on the fear of not meeting God and going to hell?

Shouldn't I tell this person to stand up straight, make decisions based on reality, and the provable benefits of right versus wrong, instead of relying on a faith crutch to guide them?

Should I explain to them that shepherding over others is more of a benefit to the shepherd than it is to the perceived sheep? To me coercing others to, "See the light!", IMO is a behavior to prove to God you're doing right and still on the path to heaven.

If I give guidance that's in direct conflict with someone's beliefs there is no spiritual benefit to me. In fact IMO it goes against any sense of spirituality and falls into selfishness.

I choose to respect others' beliefs and would ask the same from them.

Offers of "salvation" are insulting, whether that differs from your beliefs or not.

We have a "Like" button now!!!

Cool!

So what kind of bad behavior choices can be made by obeying the Bible? I am serious. In the New Testament, Jesus teaches that the greatest 2 Commandments are to love God with all of your heart, mind, and soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

What bad behavior comes of that?

I admit that some make bad choices because they misinterpret that which is plain as day ..... but that if not a flaw in the Word. We have moved out of the Old Covenant with God, and into the New Covenant. The Old has been fulfilled, and the New has taken its place.

So I will ask again, if someone follows Jesus, and does as He instructs, then what dire consequences are created for the person that does so?

People do this anyway. On this very thread I have had my faith called a fairy tale. It's not a big deal for me, because God has given me faith in Him. He reinforces that faith on a daily basis.

Once again, I want to ask you what I have asked others.

Suppose we go through life, and I am right as to how God handles the afterlife? I have gained everything, but others have lost everything.

Let's say that I am wrong, and that everything I feel in my soul is 100% wrong, and there simply is nothing after this life except a permanent dirt nap. What have I lost?

Let's say that those who believe that "how you lived your life" are right, then what have I lost by trying to help others?

Let's say that those who believe that there is an afterlife, but it is nothing but an extension of nature. If they are right, then what have I lost?

If the Muslims are right, then Allah had already decided my fate before I was born, and so nothing I did upon this earth mattered in the final decision as to my afterlife destination.

Jesus Christ is the only way that really guarantees that I make it to heaven. The rest ... well, if I do as Jesus instructed, then I am sure to make it anyway. It truly is a no lose proposition.

What do I give up to be a Christian? I give up guilt. Jesus cleared me of all my sins. That does NOT mean that I am perfect, and I continue to sin because I am imperfect, but I do my best to stay away from circumstances that would cause me to sin. If i do slip, though, I know that God is Faithful to forgive me.

I miss out on certain things that God has told us not to do.

I miss out on worshiping other gods.

I miss out on having graven images of idols.

I miss out on taking the Lord's name in vain. (that one was a difficult habit to break, because unfortunately, it had become ingrained in my daily speech. With God's help, I am clearing it from my life, and frankly, I don't miss it at all)

The Sabbath was addressed in the New testament.

I miss out on not honoring my mother and father. That was another hard one, given that my father had taken off when I was only 10 years old, but God brought him back to me (and my brother) and helped us to forgive him. Ask anyone who knew me even 5 years ago if they thought that there was any way on this earth or any other that I would ever forgive my father, and they would have laughed at you. However, it has happened with God's help.

I miss out on committing murder.

I miss out on committing adultery.

I miss out on stealing.

I miss out on lying about my neighbor. (and again, I am not going to pretend to be perfect, but I try not to do these things to the best of my ability, though I do slip from time to time)

I miss out on being jealous of things my neighbor has for himself. I miss out on wishing I could take them for my own.

Jesus also said that we should help one another, and while I am limited physically, I have been fortunate enough to have been able to help others in other ways.

There is nothing that I have given up as a Christian there that I miss. Not one thing. Do I slip up? Of course. I am a sinful being. I was born in sin. Everyone was, and everyone sins. However, I do not need to be in fear for my soul because of it, because I have been forgiven through the Grace and Love of God. That faith gives me peace inside.

I lose nothing by following Christ.



Again, if I truly believe, which I do ... then I have a responsibility to others to bring the Word of God to them. They have the right to not hear what I say. On this board, I do not bring my beliefs into football discussions. (for example) By the same token, I do not walk down the street with a megaphone preaching to anyone in sight. I do, however, speak to others about their faith if and when the subject comes up, and believe it or not, it has come up more and more often, and in completely natural ways, lately.



That is your right. Again, if we met on the street, and the subject did not present itself, then it might never come up. However, I will say this, offers of salvation are the expression of God's love for us all. I would take it as such, and try not to be offended by them. Life is too short to be offended by things offered in good intentions. You can always choose not to listen, or to politely excuse yourself.

I can understand the philosophy behind proselytizing you present, but the analogy doesn't really work because the kid and the car are tangible.

Your faith is based in fairy tales and magic. They can't be explained beyond that.

One of the dangers is real. The other is based in fantasy.

At that point, you should question whether your belief system is one that is worthy of presenting to a society or individual as a real danger.

If you're talking about omnipotent wizards and magic, there isn't any evidence of tangible danger, as there is with the child and the car.

Even if no one sees it but you at the time, it's still real.

A more apt example would be something along the lines of 'Let's say you see a kid, 9 or 10 walking along a path, and you hear a rustling in the nearby woods, which you assume to be Goro, a six armed alien from the planet Bing Bong who eats children. What do you do? Do you yell out to him, or just risk him being eaten by Goro?'

As I said in my later post, my faith costs me nothing at all, and it offers me so much. My faith does not limit me in any way I miss whatsoever.

I truly feel bad that you have decided that you will never know the feeling. God does allow us all free will, and each much decide to come to Him on their own. God won't "make" you, and no one else can.

I would also add that just because God does not register on a "spiritograph", or a "God detector", does not mean that He is not real. There is a reason it is called "Faith" ... and that is because we need to take a step out without scientific proof.

Proof is putting the cart way, way in front of the horse.

There isn't even minimal evidence beyond 'I don't know...magic?'

I'm just wondering if I can hire Goro for the next neighborhood block party?

I would supplement your home insurance first.

Most basic plans don't cover child-eating aliens.