DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Pity the Police---and the Rights of Responsible Americans!

I understand you thing to bring up a cops point of view, but what about the poor people's point of view?

Bro you gotta realize, growing up on the hood, cops were looked at as borderline slave drivers.
They were scary. They didn't represrnt protection to us. They represented death.

I've been "pro-police" but the Eric Garner case was incredibly bad. However, like I said before, someone needs to put a leash on the media. They're trying to turn everyone into some freedom fighter and justifying their actions.

I think your right. I think the media is pushing this thing to see just how bad they can make it. They come across as us against them. They provoke the masses. Anyway, I know we don't agree on anything football, and as much as I don't want to admit it, I think the 'ol respect meter just went up a bunch. I feel ya Bro.

The generation before us was known as the Greatest Generation for the things they overcame and the problems they solved.

This generation is the weakest, most wishy-washy generation. We talk and talk but do nothing. We coddle the unproductive and the criminal.

Half the Country is on the government dole and what good has it done?
The Mentally ill are no longer institutionalized and are on our streets.
Gangs are running wild.
Jobs no longer pay a livable wage.
The War on drugs has failed.
I could go on.

It just seems to me that America with all its strengths and achievements can find a way to conquer these and other problems. But we continue to talk and are more concerned with the people caught up in the problems than actually solving the problems. If we solve the problems by getting to the root cause, the people will be taken care of automatically.

It is time for action America!

Curfews?
Work for Welfare?
Institutions for the Mentally ill with halfway houses to get them productive again?
Law and order a must, no excuses?

I thought E. Cleveland was a section of the city of Cleveland? To hear you talk about it, one would think you group up on a plantation

But let's talk about the "poor people's" perspective. I grew up with a couple Christmases (what IS the plural of Christmas? Chrstmi? Christmoos?? anyway..) where I didn't get a single present. We simply couldn't afford it.

But despite how little income my folks made, they somehow managed to instill the concepts of right and wrong in me. And do you know how much that cost? My dad never pulled out his wallet for such lessons. The only leather he pulled out was his belt.

The problem with your premise that lack of money and education should be excuses for those who commit crimes is that it takes very little of either to teach and learn "right and wrong".

Furthermore, the premise that most crimes committed by poor people are crimes of necessity i.e stealing food and water and other basic needs. That's just flat out false. Every now and then you get someone who shoves $200 worth of meat down their pants, but by and large people steal things that people don't need in order to "survive". The motive behind most of your property related crimes (larcenies, burglaries, and even extending to some violent crimes like robbery) is born out of "Just because I can" and a sense of entitlement.

j/c

Mayor Bill de Blasio has spent weeks expressing his respect and admiration for the New York Police Department, while calling for unity in these difficult days, but the message doesn’t seem to be sinking in.

When he spoke at a police graduation ceremony at Madison Square Garden on Monday, some in the crowd booed and heckled him. This followed the mass back-turning by scores of officers when the mayor spoke on Saturday at the funeral of Officer Rafael Ramos; the virtual back-turning the day before by an airplane-towed banner (“Our backs have turned to you”), and the original spiteful gesture by officers on the night Mr. de Blasio visited the hospital where Officer Ramos and his partner, Wenjian Liu, lay dead.

Mr. de Blasio isn’t going to say it, but somebody has to: With these acts of passive-aggressive contempt and self-pity, many New York police officers, led by their union, are squandering the department’s credibility, defacing its reputation, shredding its hard-earned respect. They have taken the most grave and solemn of civic moments — a funeral of a fallen colleague — and hijacked it for their own petty look-at-us gesture. In doing so, they also turned their backs on Mr. Ramos’s widow and her two young sons, and others in that grief-struck family.

These are disgraceful acts, which will be compounded if anyone repeats the stunt at Officer Liu’s funeral on Sunday.

The New York Police Department is going through a terrible time, and the assassinations of those officers only underscore the dreadful dangers that rank-and-file cops face every day. And, in truth, there is some thanklessness to being a cop. Officers often feel beleaguered, jerked around by supervisors and politicians, obligated to follow rules and policies that can be misguided, held responsible for their mistakes in ways that the public is not, exposed to frequent ridicule and hostility from the people they are sworn to serve. It has always been that way with cops.

But none of those grievances can justify the snarling sense of victimhood that seems to be motivating the anti-de Blasio campaign — the belief that the department is never wrong, that it never needs redirection or reform, only reverence. This is the view peddled by union officials like Patrick Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association — that cops are an ethically impeccable force with their own priorities and codes of behavior, accountable only to themselves, and whose reflexive defiance in the face of valid criticism is somehow normal.

It’s not normal. Not for a professional class of highly trained civil servants, which New York’s Finest profess to be. The police can rightly expect, even insist upon, the respect of the public. But respect is a finite resource. It cannot be wasted. Sometimes it has to be renewed.

The failures of some cops, the misguided policing tactics that feed a sense of oppression in parts of the city, the offensive provocations of some in the police-reform protest movement, and the horrific killings of two officers, have led the city to a dangerous point.

But there is a way out of this cul-de-sac. It was stated at Officer Ramos’s funeral by an exemplary public servant — and stout de Blasio ally — Commissioner William Bratton.

He put it beautifully: “The police, the people who are angry at the police, the people who support us but want us to be better, even a madman who assassinated two men because all he could see was two uniforms, even though they were so much more. We don’t see each other. If we can learn to see each other, to see that our cops are people like Officer Ramos and Officer Liu, to see that our communities are filled with people just like them, too. If we can learn to see each other, then when we see each other, we’ll heal. We’ll heal as a department. We’ll heal as a city. We’ll heal as a country.”

The mayor will be meeting Tuesday with leaders of the five police unions to lower the temperature and to move the city forward. He has been doing and saying the right things, but he also seems to be taking great pains not to say anything to set off the cops. Surely many officers understand and accept his conciliatory words and realize that the things Mr. de Blasio has done — like hiring Mr. Bratton, increasing financing for the department and modernizing its equipment — are motivated by an honest desire to do right by the Police Department.

The grieving rank-and-file need to recognize this and also see the damage that many of their colleagues, and their union representatives, are doing to trash their department’s reputation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/opinio...lasio.html?_r=0

In his first year as mayor, many in the department feel that de Blasio has demonized the police. Despite his repeated praise for cops and the difficult jobs they do, they feel his actions have belied his words.

Supporters of the mayor — this New York Times editorial may say it best – point to increased funding for the department, the end of “quotas” for arrests and summonses and the falling murder rate as evidence that de Blasio has the best interests of the police at heart.

Still, he has embraced Al Sharpton, one of the most polarizing figures in the city, who has been an unrelenting critic of the department over the years. At a City Hall event last summer — supposedly to help unify the city following the “chokehold” death of Eric Garner as police attempted to arrest him — the mayor seated Sharpton next to him with Police Commissioner Bill Bratton on the mayor’s other side. Whether intended or not, the mayor symbolically elevated Sharpton as Bratton’s equal. Bratton himself has said that he regrets the seating arrangement.

Since then, the mayor has continued to court Sharpton. Attending his 60th birthday party in October, the mayor described Sharpton as the nation’s preeminent civil rights figure and “a blessing for this city.”

“The more people criticize him, the more I want to hang out with him,” the mayor said.

Then there was De Blasio’s reluctance to fire Sharpton’s former spokeswoman Rachel Noerdlinger, whom the mayor had appointed as his wife, Chirlane McCray’s, $170,000-per-year chief of staff.

He seemed to shrug off the arrests of Noerdlinger’s live-in boyfriend, Hassaun McFarlan as well as McFarlan’s and Noerdlinger’s 17-year-old son Khari’s anti-police postings in which they both called cops “pigs.”

Only after Khari was arrested for trespassing at a known drug location in the Bronx did Noerdlinger take an “indefinite leave of absence.” De Blasio has continued to support Noerdlinger since the announcement. He referred to news media reports on Noerdlinger’s personal life as “repulsive.”

The mayor also orchestrated a whopping $41 million settlement to five non-white teenagers [four black and one Hispanic] wrongly convicted in the Central Park Jogger case, which for 25 years has fanned the city’s racial flames. Complicating the picture is that, on the night of the rape, police believe the five were part of a group of 30 assaulting others in the park, though no charges were filed. In addition, their confessions to the police and prosecutors each implicated each other in beating the jogger, to within an inch of her life.

To win such cases, plaintiffs must prove they were not merely convicted wrongfully but that the police and/or prosecutors acted willfully: in the jogger case, that they convicted the five teenagers, knowing they were innocent.

In its settlement agreement, the city specifically stated that neither the police nor prosecutors had acted wrongly.

Then there was de Blasio’s recent announcement that he had warned his biracial son Dante about the dangers of dealing with the NYPD.

“Because of a history that still hangs over us [and] the dangers that he may face, we’ve had to literally train him as families have all over this city for decades in how to take special care in any encounter he has with police officers, who are there to protect him. …

“There’s so many families in this city who feel that each and every night. Is my child safe? And not just from some of the painful realities of crime and violence in some of our neighborhoods, but are they safe from the very people they want to have faith in, as their protectors?”

While nobody can deny that a black teenager or adult is more likely to encounter trouble from the police than a white one, de Blasio seemed to be going out of his way to make a political point. His remarks led cop union president Patrick Lynch to say the mayor was throwing cops “under the bus,” and that he would not be welcome at any future police funeral. De Blasio has repeatedly said that he has made many efforts to support the police.

Finally there were the anti-police demonstrations that began after a grand jury failed to indict anyone for Garner’s death. Before they began, Bratton announced that protesters would not be allowed to take over the city — either its roadways or bridges. Instead, they were allowed to do just that.

A group of marchers was seen on TV, shouting, “What do we want? Dead cops!” Other marchers are charged with attacking two police lieutenants on the Brooklyn Bridge and beating them to the ground.

The initial response of the mayor’s press office to those attacks was to describe them as “alleged,” rather than substantiated fact.

During his mayoral campaign, de Blasio’s mantra was a “tale of two cities.” Now, as his first year as mayor ends, he seems to have become New York City’s Great Divider.

-from REUTERS
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/20...ce-are-at-odds/

Vers,

Having been in law enforcement for the last 5 and a half years I will tell you I appreciate you trying to tackle this subject. Having read the thread, I think you can see how difficult it is to get a discourse that is productive when it relates to topics like these.

You are 100% correct that the media through irresponsible reporting is purposefully trying to fan these issues. While we all know the media at large can't be trusted, just be careful not to accept their premise that tensions are high between whites and blacks. If you factor out the media coverage, have you honestly noticed a difference in how people of different races interact with each other on a day to day basis? Maybe you have, but it hasn't been my experience. And this has certainly been a topic I've had conversations with people, both while in and out of uniform. The usual consensus is that we don't need some loud mouth racist like Sharpton, Holder, or Obama to tell us that we hate each other and that we aren't getting along, because by and large, we clearly ARE getting along. Not as whites and blacks co-existing side by side, but as citizens, together.

Back on the other team boards I said when it came to issues like these I wouldn't just arbitrarily side with a cop, just because they were a cop. I said that when it comes to these incidents I would try to explain the legal processes and considerations that are looked at and used when arriving at these conclusions: things like reasonable suspicion vs. probable cause, lawful authority, use of force standards... the majority of citizens are generally pleased with how their local law enforcement conducts themselves. While the overall quality of law enforcement is quite good, where my profession has failed miserably is in educating the public as to these concepts, particularly when it comes to force. NO matter what level of force is used, it NEVER looks good. Whether its an active shoot out with an armed suspect, or wrestling and trying to get an unarmed suspect in to custody, or even putting hand cuffs on a 100% compliant subject... something as simple as that most people find rather unsettling to witness. Believe me, the first time I put handcuffs on someone was no insignificant event in my own life.

Over the last 20 years the concepts of Community Oriented Policing have become pretty main stream, many agencies have actual designated units to address specific community needs. Now, a 'community police' squad may have different looks, ranging from organizing community watch programs all the way to something more aggressive like a gang suppression unit.

And trust me, where other professions talk about "diversity" because its PC, law enforcement understands just how valuable and effective a diverse agency can be. Problem is, certain neighborhoods view policing just like they view education and wearing your pants up around your waist.. its a "white" thing. It's a shame too because coming from an underprivileged background presents enough challenges without having to be negatively influenced or held down by certain elements in that neighborhood.

How do you feel about law enforcement agencies doing themselves no favors such as Rodney king, choking a guy to death in NYC, and other similar issues? There's some sort of undercurrent which shows there's some sort of issue in law enforcement. Go search through many threads about personal anecdotes about police experiences. Racial profiling is a pertinent topic to discuss that everyone wants to avoid.

I will just say this.

If a Muslim wearing a turban is getting a plane with you, you probably have that flash of a thought that he may be a terrorist. Even though the common sense in you dissolves that quickly, I bet the thought flashes through your head.

A white kid in a polo shirt driving a Mercedes, your thought is spoiled rich kid.

A black kid in baggy pants, gold teeth, funky sock on his head you thing hoodlum or gangsta.

It's human nature to profile, and those profiles are based on what we see/hear, and Hollywood and news media show us each type. It is actually a natural defense mechanism, that has a negative side in today's society.

You can call it racial profiling, you can call it cultural profiling, but anyway you describe it, we all profile, for good or for bad, we all do it.

When I was younger, sure. As I grow older much of that has changed.

I've been around a majority of people from different cultures, backgrounds, and ways of life to teach me to avoid such stereotypes.

to an extend, but not really.

I don't go around thinking every white guy with a porn mustache is a child molester.

Hey, this is a very sensitive topic. 40 and Devil.........I completely get you guys, but in our current world, one comes across as a racist if we question such things. I think it is a big-time double standard that rivals the huge double-standard that used to swing in the other direction.

Devil...........I feel for you man. It's gotta be tough being a cop right now. My son and I were discussing it today. We're both pretty tough guys, but both would be nervous as hell being a cop right now. Too many degenerates are going to use the excuse of all this clamor to commit crimes against cops. It freaking sucks.

Look, I don't agree w/what the cop did by choking that guy. He was dead wrong. The Ferguson issue is different. That was no "innocent kid." I think there are idiot cops, just like there are idiot teachers, just like there are idiot blacks, just like there are idiot Germans, just like there are idiot women, just like there are idiot actors, etc, etc etc.

However, for anyone to classify all policemen as idiots is ignorant and just as prejudiced as those they have been railing against for decades.

I knew I would take some flak for starting this thread. Lowlifes and bleeding hearts will try and say I am prejudiced. That bothers me because that is NOT who I am, but I have always been this kind of guy......I don't care what race you are, what sex you are..........if you are a good person I will tell you so and if you are an idiot, I will tell you so even if you are a minority. Screw that politically correct crap. I wonder how many of these bleeding hearts have supported a black homeless person for 8 months and gave him money to go to college?

Devil, I got your back. I have the back of all those who try to make our world a better and safer place. I don't like all cops, but I respect the "whole" of your profession. You get paid like crap and have an extremely tough job that just got tougher because of a couple of idiot cops, a media that thrives on sensationalism, an uneducated and amoral group of people, and the spineless majority. Just know this..........if my son and I see these thugs messing w/the police, we will not hesitate to have your back.

Glad I'm considered a low life. Whatever.


It's funny in this board in general.

Guys like me, ha know, "hood" guys, we have to understand what cops are going through. Yet nobody tries to understand what others in the hood and MYSELF a go through.

It's always "think about the cops pov", "put yourself in the cops shoes" or "cops are humans too"

Yet nobody does the same for me. Or others that grew up or are growing up like I did. There's always some excuse.

Like I, as a child, had an option to not live in the conditions I did.

That's why this thread pisses me off. I gotta constantly watch mofos give cops excuses while I gotta live everyday wondering if imma get harassed by the cops and treated inhumanly.

Screw this thread.

Screw you!

I never said that about you. Quit freaking whining. I actually respect you. You served your country and are trying to work for a living.

And I will tell you one more thing.........I am sick and tired of black people ripping on whites w/our any repurcussion, but how dare any white person say a negative word about a black person. It's freaking hypocritical, and if you can't see that.................screw you!

I didn't say one damn thing about whites.

I said cops.

Cops.

One more time. Cops.

Try again. I've been harassed by white and black cops. They are all the same to me. Untrustworthy.

Swish:

Here's one for ya.... straight from me to you.

I DON'T give all cops a pass in threads like this. I just haven't spoken up until now, because this thread has gone the way most of these threads have always gone.

Up until now.

Congrats to you, for pushing me to jump in to this conversation. If you weren't on the verge of totally giving up, I might not have bothered at all.

Let me jump in, for what it's worth.

I grew up in what's known as a 'marginal' district. I lived one block east of the street that divided my town from the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. Because of where I grew up, I actually went to school with "the haves."

Growing up (when and where I did) was a total trip. At school, I could push the Caucasian American students to the limits of what they could achieve. I was fearless, relentless. In school, I was a force unleashed... and even the bigoted teachers who had me for 9 months per year couldn't hold me down. I was a freakkin' FORCE, yo- and the school system didn't know what to do with me. Teachers who weren't prepared for the likes of me would routinely send me to the Principal's office, simply because I'd ask them questions that they weren't trained to answer. If they were found wanting, I'd press them beyond their abilities to answer... and get dismissed from class as a "disruption."

When I returned home- one block east of Woodlawn Ave, I was just as much out-of-place.

In school, the teachers saw me as a "smartazz Hood Rat." At home, I was seen as a "Smarty-art-azz Nigga."

----------------------

As I lived trough this tortured, "mixed-signals" childhood, I was being raised by a Cop and His Wife.

I will only ever know My Dad as the Man who raised me. But I do also remember him as this:

1. A man who lived his life according to the highest principles that define what a man is.

2. A person who would stand up for what is right... and never waver from his convictions, no matter what came his way.

3. A man who always knew the difference between right and wrong... and never let his "job pressures" sway him from the decisions he was forced to make.

---------------------

If he were here to see this discourse of civic expression, I KNOW what he would say:


"Folks won't understand this problem until they've been humbled by their own mistakes. Son- the Real Story is always one step removed from the obvious..."


________________________

Swish:

There are cops out there who really do understand The Truth. Not all of them are The Enemy.

My Pops found a way to 'fight the good fight." He staged the first "sit-in" in our town, rose to the rank of 'Top Cop' in our town's Uniform division... and NEVER gave up The Fight.

I wish you\ could have spent some time with My Pops. He'd have taken some real time with you.... and I'd have been a willing observer, as he schooled you about how to make change through communication.


I love the youthful passion you have for issues like this, Swish- I really do. But I have to tell you this, as well:

Not every cop is a bad cop.

I get that.

But just like deployment(yes, I consider it just that when I think about growin up) I can't trust that all Muslims aren't insurgents out to get me.

Just like I know all politicians aren't dirt bags, but I can't trust that because there are far too many that are snakes. I have no way of knowing.

And worse yet, there are "good cops" who turn a blind eye on the illegal crap the court cops do. They are just as much of a problem. I get the whole "loyalty" thing. I would never snitch on my soldiers to another command. But that's being part of the problem at the end of the day.

The biggest difference? In not in a position that I interact as a profession with civilians everyday.

I simply can not trust the police force, not after what I've gone through and seen my entire life.

And now these people got MRAPS a and military gear?

Clem: explain to me why Im having flashbacks of down range when I see these cops with MRAPs. Am I back in Iraq now? Are here anti tank mines and IEDs on the road I'm not aware of? Are there guys on the rooftops with RPGs aiming it at cops?

And here's another thing that pissing me off with cops and government agencies.

We all seen the whole Nevada incident on TV. We all remember the photo of the white guy with a SNIPER RIFLE aimed at federal agents about to go to war.

And what the ranch owner did was ILLEGAL. And people supported that!!

Let's be clear, Do you realize what would happen if that was me or you or Lurker out there? They would've opened fire in a heart beat, and we be called thugs, the n word, and a bunch of people would say that we felt entitled and didn't want to pay taxes.

So yes. I'm scared as crap all the time, everytime I leave the house. Everytime I see a cop, my hands start sweating, my heartbeat races.

So what you guys are saying is all fine and well. Good for you. But MY reality is far different. How I have to go about everyday life sucks.

Nn

Thanks Clem for allowing your heart to talk to your brain prior to responding. All of us here can tell you care.

It is unfortunate, Clem, you had the educational experience you share here. However, it is my best guess that some of it made you the fine man you are today!

Swish, it is my best guess that you are correct, many cannot and never will understand your life. We can only listen. Please, keep talking and sharing. There is good food for thought coming from this for ALL of us. But when we are never going to live one another's lives, this may be the next best thing.

Thanks to many of you who care and want better social relations in this country.

We all do care and want a better way!

Imo it's probably time for a 50 state week long "Blue Flu". Rest assured after a week, most of the haters will like em A WHOLE LOT BETTER.

The flu IS goin around you know.

Swish you make some very good points in your posts.

As a White upper middle, I had to raise my kids with the Cop speech. When they were little, if you get lost or have troubles, the Cop is your friend, seek him out.
When they became teenagers, I taught them if they get pulled over to be polite and respectful. If you did nothing wrong, tell the Cop everything, without fear and you may be on your way. If you did something wrong or have something illegal in the car, be polite and respectful and demand a lawyer or a call to dad because the Cop is not your friend at this point, he is building his case against you and you don't want to say anything to help his case.

I was also upset to see the Cops with everything but tanks theses days! What the heck are Cops doing with Military gear!?

I didn't know what to think about the Military gear but once I started asking around, I came to the realization that when a group of 10 heavily armed terrorists bust out of that warehouse and start killing people by the hundreds, it will be the Cops who are our first line of defense. They must hold the line until the State and Federal people arrive.

My thinking now is maybe they should train on that equipment but leave it home when dealing with the general public.

Swish - I cannot relate to your upbringing and experience, for sure. I grew up in really small town Ohio in a school that was K-12 in the same building. We had zero Blacks or Hispanics or even Asians in my school. growing up in the 70's, the only exposure I had to real ethnic differences, was TV -honestly - that was my only exposure, good or bad.

When I was in 6th grade, we had our first 'black family' move into the area and the son was in 6th grade as well. We were so excited [don't hate me for saying this] because he joined out BB team and could touch the rim! I was the first one to spend the night at his house and all was good.

That summed up my childhood race relations, until I joined the service [Air Force Desert Storm Veteran myself -non combat] and my culture expanded to becoming really good friends of Asians, Blacks, Hispanics etc. The brotherhood of life overseas is something I wish most people could experience, as well as travel a lot.

My point is that personal experience will trump all - which most folks forget. My sample size as a kid, with exposure to blacks was 100% positive, so that stayed with me my whole life, allowing me to hang with families of many cultures.

Your comment above - IMHO - goes to the heart of race issues - and is where prejudice has its root...our personal experience (good bad and ugly) is the reality of our prejudice, and those how don't have those bad experiences cannot relate or understand.

The question then becomes, how do we change it? In my signature (quote by Twain) I think is part of the answer...I think of so many great civil leaders of the past who showed that Love is the great cure all...when we love our brothers (we are all brothers) we will all win - and we love through actions and words ... Something the media will never be.

He only part I don't agree with is they are the first line of defense.

If a full scale attack happened unexpectedly, it wouldn't be the military, or cops responding first.

It be you. Me, arch, PDR, CHS, rock, Ted, YTown, pit, toad, crjae, dawg talker, WHOEVER first. Anybody with their own weapons.

And that's how it's always been. Even with local stuff.

The cops don't show up until the damage is already done. People need to remember that. It's evrryday citizens who help each other out all the time, and THEN call the cops.

Man bro traveling and living abroad is one of the big reasons why I don't trust the cops even more than I use to.

I loved in Germany for five years. I also go to turkey to visit my family twice a year since I was young.

The way I see cops interacting with citizens, and hell even me is soooooo much different than over here. It's night and day.

Are anecdotal stories the new standard in terms of evidence to support claims that there are "systemic" problems? It would be convenient if so because the actual statistics simply don't back up that premise:

DOJ's Policing Statistics


Three is a pattern, they say, and protesters in Times Square and elsewhere can cite more than three examples — Michael Brown in Missouri, Eric Garner in New York, and John Crawford and Tamir Rice in Ohio — to back up their claim that there is a pattern of excessive force by white law enforcement against black citizens revealing itself in America. But, compelling as these anecdotal examples may be, they are outliers amid a decade’s worth of data that indicate nothing in the way of systemic bias in encounters between law enforcement and citizens (of every color).





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Among a variety of other findings, the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ (BJS) Police-Public Contact Survey (PPCS), collected triennially since 1996, estimates the number of citizens who interact with police annually, how those interactions came about, and how citizens assess them. Because BJS conducts interviews with a sample (some 40,000 to 60,000 persons, depending on the year), then extrapolates to the larger population, the numbers are not perfect, but they do offer one reasonable indication of police contact with the American public. In 2011, the most recent year for which data is available, 62.9 million U.S. residents age 16 or older, or about one quarter of American adults, had at least one encounter, face-to-face or remote, with police. Half (49 percent) were police-initiated; traffic stops accounted for four of every ten encounters (42 percent), as did citizen requests for assistance (38.5 percent).

The unlikeliest reason (1 in 50) for encountering law enforcement was a “street stop,” in which a pedestrian is stopped by a police officer. The reasons for such a stop are more varied than for a traffic stop, which helps to explain why 24.5 percent of those involved in a street stop claimed that police did not behave “properly.” Even so, a mere 3 percent of those dissatisfied citizens filed a complaint. In raw numbers, of 1.45 million pedestrians stopped, only about 9,900 filed a complaint.

These statistics help to contextualize the cases protesters have cited. Both Michael Brown’s and Eric Garner’s run-ins with law enforcement could be classified as street stops; both are in the even smaller class of cases that allege “improper” police behavior; and given the legal action the families are pursuing, it is not unreasonable to categorize both among the vanishingly small minority of complaint-worthy cases.

One could consider these situations from another perspective. Of the 40 million Americans (16.9 percent) who had a face-to-face encounter with law enforcement in 2008, only 1.4 percent reported having force threatened or used against them. Three years earlier, the number was 1.6 percent, and in 2002 it was 1.5 percent. As a percentage of the population, averaged from 2002 to 2008, blacks (3.7 percent) have been slightly more likely than whites (1.2 percent) and Hispanics (2.2 percent), but the rates for each racial group have remained approximately flat.

But, considering police-public interactions more broadly, are there indications that police disproportionately initiate contact with minorities? In short, no. When it came to traffic stops in 2011, black drivers (13 percent) were stopped more frequently than white (10 percent) or Hispanic (10 percent) drivers. That is hardly a damning finding. Moreover, while blacks (7 percent) were slightly more likely than Hispanics (6 percent) or whites (5 percent) to be ticketed, they were also slightly more likely than whites to be let go with no enforcement action (2 percent versus 1 percent).





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These disparities are small, and they square with citizens’ perception of police behavior: Eighty-three percent of black drivers who were stopped believed police behaved properly, compared with 87 percent of Hispanic drivers and 89 percent of white drivers. Furthermore, racial differences between citizen and officer made little difference in these perceptions. Black drivers were equally likely to believe they were stopped “legitimately” whether the officer was black (71 percent) or white (70 percent), and among black drivers who believed they were stopped legitimately, those stopped by white officers were in fact more likely to report “proper” officer conduct (94 percent) than those stopped by black officers (92 percent). The dynamic, however, reverses among drivers who believe they were not stopped for a legitimate reason: 87 percent of those stopped by a black officer reported the officer behaved properly, compared to only 58 percent of those stopped by a white officer.

Street stops present more disparate data: Seventy-seven percent of whites stopped said police behaved properly, while only 38 percent of blacks did. However, the BJS notes that the number of responses to the question in its sample was so small that those figures must be “interpret[ed] with caution,” so clearly additional information is needed. More reliable are figures about street-stop rates. As a percentage of the total population, whites, blacks, and Hispanics were all stopped at the same rates (1 percent of the respective groups in a given year).

None of this precludes the possibility of instances of racism among law-enforcement personnel. But taken as a whole, Police-Public Contact Survey data suggest that no racial group is unjustifiably targeted by law enforcement as a national matter and that black Americans by and large find little objectionable about their encounters with white police officers. There are, to be sure, isolated incidents of police malpractice. But whatever happened in Ferguson, Staten Island, and the few other cases cited by protesters, according to this collection of data, the events seem to have been statistical anomalies, not indicators of any pattern.




I mean, if you'd like to go with anecdotal stories as evidence, we can send it both ways. What would you like to hear about? The motorist who's pissed because you wrote him a ticket for doing 50mph in a school zone with elementary kids walking by? Do you want to know about the woman who beat her 1 yr old so bad that he had 2 broken legs, a broken arm that was partially healed, and 3 broken ribs? How she didn't care? The homeless man found dead from exposure and his next of kin won't claim the body because they've been that alienated?

Or how about the less traumatic stuff? How about the number of motorists who refuse to get out of the way for emergency vehicles trying to get to someone's family member who's just been struck by a drunk driver and is bleeding out? The best part is they actually look you in the eye while talking on their cell phone before cutting you off!

And it goes on and on.

I don't bring this up to excuse bad conduct on the part of police, but merely to get on the same page about what standard we are going to use.

Using the same DOJ stats, a department who not only helps cover up police corruption, but also created and adapted a system that purposely jails poor people for profit prisons while giving rich people slaps on the wrist.

No bias there, huh devil?

Like Dawg Travler, I had little exposure to other races in school. Mostly from tv.
I remember how disappointed I was when I got out into the world and discovered that most Blacks didn't yell Dy-no-Mite!!!

Hey, I'm no fan of the head of the DOJ considering how much of a racist he is and his lack of the pursuit of Justice he has shown.

But do you have any LESS bias? I'd suggest that you don't just based on things you've posted.

I obviously don't know what you've experienced and its actually quite saddening that you and I could randomly sit down next to each other at a Browns game, shares some beers, have a great time, console each other for cruddy QB play.. and have that all washed away at the end when you find out what I do for a living.

Its saddening that without even actually meeting me you trust me much less than the elderly woman in the 'hood who is old enough to have actually marched with MLK, and be bitten by police dogs and hit with fire hoses. Those are the people that I would not blame for refusing to speak with me and hate me.

Yet these are the first people to call the police. These are the people who will tell you who just shot up the neighborhood instead of giving us some BS "I ain't no snitch" or "I didn't see anything" (as the recorded it on their phone)answer. These are the first people to THANK the police for coming in to the neighborhood and "harassing" the drug dealers and idiots who want to imitate them.

Its THAT person who the police are in the 'hood for. Its for the single mom trying to shield her small kids from all of that so they have a chance to get out of poverty. Its for the dad who got in trouble early on, but is back trying to keep his sons from falling in to the same pattern so that they can have a chance. Your assumption is that the police look at poor black people like they are worthless dirt. The truth is that the police see a portion of our society that is relentlessly victimized by their own. This is why the police in Ferguson went back to work instead of letting it burn. Those are the people who get priority and respect, not the idiot with his pants down promoting and/or living/associating with the CRIMINAL gangsta thug lifestyle.

Stop with the righteous cop crap.

You guys don't care about poor communities. You only do enough to keep it from spilling into the high income areas. Don't want us to be a inconvenience to those with money.

I haven't seen a cop in east cleveland in a while. They are about to go bankrupt, but that was even before bankruptcy.

But I see them in cleveland heights, Univeristy circle, all over the west side. Lynhurst, beachwood.

But not where all the broke people are at. Nah, gotta keep us contained like we are viruses, right?

And let everybody on this board get something clear: while I respect history, it has no bearing on MY experience.

So when it comes to right now, your stories about old people getting hosed down has no place in MY experience.

My experience is cops harassing the crap out of me. MY experience is getting searched for drugs all the time and bei embarassed in front of my family. MY experience is the cop going to my wife on the passenger side of the car and asking her if Shes ok multiple times like I kidnapped her or something. MY experience is getting charged with disorderly conduct while my white friend didn't get charged and got driven home. I told that story on the other board. That's right, 17 years old, no priors, just like my friend, but he gets into no trouble while I get charged and on probation.

Oh and by the way, that's why, if YALL didn't know, I joined the army. Cause I couldn't find a damn job after high school, and I couldn't afford college, while good ole white boy gets to get a good job and go to school. And all that would've been FINE, but because I saw the justic system FIRST HAND not be fair. I got screwed. So the army was the ONLY thing I had going for me. Joined in the beginning of 2006.

Man, some old wounds got opened up. Man SCREW you cops. I absolutely do not like YALL. At all. You don't serve any purpose in my eyes. Except to hand out traffic tickets and harass poor people.

I don't wish Bad on cops. But Vers, don't ask me to show ANY support for them. It will NEVER happen.

You were fine up to this point. This is where people are going to rip you. Although I expect you realize this.

I don't care. I get ripped all the time.

That's the truth. If people wanna rip me for the truth my experience, then whatever. It isn't the fire time, and it won't be the last. Me and my friend talk about it all the time. Dude has an awesome life, and I can only wonder what it's like.

I'm not saying my life would've been different if I didn't get charged just like him........ Actually, yea, Im saying that. Man I wanted to do HUGE things man. My parents did everything they could to get me into private high school my junior year. And just because we got into a scuffle at the mall with other kids, not even an actual fight, all of that changed?

Man bro.... Man......

B

Wonder if you ever stop to think what the person's experience on the other side of the coin has been. Perhaps it plays in to their choices, actions and perceptions. This world can be a scary place for all of us and it can and does effect our interactions with others.

Nj

Just thinkin out loud Swish

I have.
But I don't understand it.

Two 17 year old kids. Friends. None of us has priors. Both of us was in the scuffle at the same time with other kids.

There's only ONE difference between us.

So whatever their experience is prior shouldn't matter. If I got charged, my friend should've got charged, if I didn't get charged, same should go for my friend.

But that didn't happen. So what explanation could there possibly be? What experience would a cop have that would make me get charged and not my friend?

Is it because he thinks blacks are criminals anyway and it doesn't matter? That he thinks I wasn't gonna do anything with my life, but this white kid will?

I think Julesdawg made a good point about this. When people are loud, rude, destructive and in your face why do you think people will respond positively? You may gain some support from people on the fence, but you will probably do the opposite for just as many other people.

li understand what you are saying. However, I was referring to the actions of officers and others who you have grievances against. What might their past experiences be? What are the thoughts in their heads during threatening or tumultuous circumstances?

I am in no way, shape or form invalidating your thoughts and concerns. I am simply reiterating that when we encounter others in life, we cannot understand or anticipate what their past experiences are or why they might respond the way the do. Their past experiences may indicate responses to situations.

All we are as humans at any given time is a sum of our whole life experience.....some positive some negative. For all of us, it is how we respond to and attempt to overcome negative experiences in life.

I understand. I get that it works both ways. I absolutely get that.

For instance, there's no way in hell I would expect to the cops to not profile in Say, Compton. Or east side of Chicago. Or areas with a lot of illegal immigrants.

My issue is, how come cops, who are mostly white, rarely profile their own people? I was in Parma when we got arrested. Straight up suburbs.

I wouldn't have a problem being profiled it say, a cop profiled a guy that looks like a child molester, of profile a mom with 4 kids cause she might kill them.

Why is it that stereotypes are only validated by cops when it comes to minorities OR really poor whites?

Like I think it was Eve dawg who said she was assaulted by a black dude.

She has every reason to be scared of blacks. Especially if her day to day contact with blacks are severely limited and/or NONE. What could o really say about it? Nothing.

But the difference between us is this: we aren't cops. We aren't in a position of authority over civilians. They shouldn't have that luxury or be able to be bias for the most part.

Cops have a higher standard. And they SHOULD, because they constantly TELL us they have a higher standard to uphold the law and blah blah blah.

So when they blatantly FAIL at that, I feel it's my job to point it out. Especially because their failure has had a huge impact on my life.

I may not have supported someone like that. However, I sacrifice a "regular/normal" young adulthood for a great cause.

I don't think you'll get ripped for prejudice so much as being incapable of having a rational or intellectual debate.

You basically just blurt things out without any thought or basic research, to the point where you can't even back up your statements or accusations. You just wind up having to deflect or change the subject because you don't seem to be capable of thinking a move ahead. You just blurt out whatever feeling or emotion grips you, and hope no one challenges it. I'm not even sure if you consider the prospect of it being challenged, actually, which is why you often find yourself backed into a corner where your only recourse is to pretend like it didn't happen.

I feel the victims, the threats and fears are on both sides of this issue. Within the minority and poor neighborhoods as well as among law enforcement.

In Ferguson, the media not only focused on what they tried to pertray as bad police officers, but on the looters and rioters rather than the peaceful protestors. In both cases, the media focused on the negative and painted both sides in a bad light.

There are far more good cops and protestors that congregate in a peaceful manner but none of that makes the headlines. Thus making people on both sides victims. The entire us verses them mentality is what furthers division.