DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Pity the Police---and the Rights of Responsible Americans!

That and the inability to separate individuals and institutions is primarily why these issues rarely gain any ground.

If you're looking at 'cops' or 'blacks' in a defined collective, you're probably looking in the wrong direction.

Far too many are looking for individuals to be indicative of institutions, and vice versa.

U.S. Dept of Commerce
Welfare Statistics

Total number of Americans on welfare............ 12,800,000
Total number of Americans on food stamps........ 46,700,000
Total number of Americans on unemployment insurance 5,600,000
Percent of the US population on welfare.......... 4.1 %

Total government spending on welfare annually (not including food stamps or unemployment).......................... $131.9 billion

Welfare Demographics
Percent of recipients who are white 38.8 %
Percent of recipients who are black 39.8 %
Percent of recipients who are Hispanic 15.7 %
Percent of recipients who are Asian 2.4 %
Percent of recipients who are Other 3.3 %

www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

Well in that case I thought I would dig around my gun case to see what would be big enough to do the job....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=382_1420246482

about the best way to plant watermelons I have ever seen.

believe I will try that this spring

I knew you would like that vid. There are still some on these boards that appreciate the finer things in life.

How practical is that thing really? I always see it as a problem with gun culture in the U.S., where it becomes more of a hobby instead of what guns are built for: Killing people.

Well in that case I would say mission accomplished. It would also be a great carry weapon while fishing in Big Bear country.

East Cleveland is NOT a section of the City of Cleveland. East Cleveland is a small inner ring suburb of Cleveland in between The Glenville section of Cleveland and Cleveland Heights. At one time East Cleveland was the murder capitol of the US. East Cleveland is not to be confused with the East SIDE of Cleveland.

I just wanted to than the refs for allowing versatile back on the board. I dont know where else to find this kind of entertainment for free

I hear what you are saying Vers and I give you kudos for bringing up such a topic...it's like discussing religion and politics...very difficult to get sustained, reasonable discourse.

The comments of the nations top cop and its "leader" have created this heightened tension with police - as well as racial tensions in general. The attack on our nation's cops has been disgusting. The general lack of responsibility and accountability in this country has now expanded to those who break the law but hold law enforcement accountable for such acts.

Cries of "Hands Up...Don't Shoot" born of the Ferguson tragedy is utter BS. Do the protesters using such cries understand that Mr Brown's hands were NEVER up? These people don't even have a grasp of the facts, yet they get face time on TV and athletes demonstrating with their hands up. Do any of these people know the FACTS of the damn case? What point are they trying to make when the foundation of their protest is completely non-factual?

As usual, the sensationalism of what actually happened completely destroys any meaningful learning or message that can come from the tragedies.

What do we have to gain from demonizing our police forces? From the constant race-baiting? It's as if these things are being done with a purpose.

The general lack of responsibility and accountability in this country has now expanded to those who break the law but hold law enforcement accountable for such acts.


As usual, the sensationalism of what actually happened completely destroys any meaningful learning or message that can come from the tragedies.

What do we have to gain from demonizing our police forces? From the constant race-baiting? It's as if these things are being done with a purpose.

Couldn't agree more. Your point is well taken. Until we all unite and stop the likes of Sharpton and Jackson, or at least pay them no heed, this will continue. Some folks do not realize they are simply being exploited by these vultures who are using the media for personal gain in these situations. Vulnerable folks are easily exploited by these vultures in the name of "justice". Sad

Perhaps on purpose thanks to Obama, the great National Divider.

All he had to say was Yes, we have troubles and mistrust between African Americans and the Police but in the case of Fergusion, the kid had just robbed a store and attacked the Police officer. The kid was out of control and brought about his own death by his own actions.
He wouldn't even have to mention the fact that some witnesses lied under oath saying the kid had his hands up. Turns out those witnesses weren't even there.

Just like he used his IRS to undermine Conservative groups and covered up his own lies about Libya during the election.

Just like he said during his first run for office about the Conservatives clinging to their Guns and Bibles.

Yep, history will show him as the Great National Divider. Now there's a legacy for you.

Perhaps by some. At the same time, History has a habit of being more even-handed in its accounting of presidential tenures than most current-day assessments.

Time and distance bring perspective. And that's true no matter who the president is/was.

I think his legacy will be pretty much like most: far from perfect, but not a colossal failure, either. How we citizens view a sitting POTUS (both during and soon after) will always be tinted through our own lenses, and true objectivity is hard to come by. IMHO, we won't really have a true feel for any presidential term until about 20 years later. It takes that long for the ramifications of their policy decisions to be fully fleshed-out... and those bios most likely WON'T be written by that POTUS' contemporaries

Actually, I think it's better that way. Politics in the here-and-now are always too emotionally charged with immediacy.

In time, he, like all other presidents, will be assessed in a pretty balanced way. It just won't be happening any time soon.


.02

Uh, well, ugh, eeeya grunt.
Oh sorry Clem, fell asleep right in the middle of your calm, unemotional, rational post.

Now let me read it again.

Yea, history will remember him as history decides.
Heck, Carter is remembered as a good man, which he was.

I know how I will remember him though, pfft, next!

Anyhow, I for one support the Police...
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=eda_1420478852

[insert wry chuckle here]

You know what, screw you Swish and your whining and moaning about how life has been unfair to you. Thread after thread, post after post I see other posters trying to bend over backwards trying to ensure they don't offend you when they are trying to get a better understanding of your point of view. After all, you're the one who keeps on with the "y'all don't understand what its like to be black" and "why don't we look at it from the poor people's perspective".. then you hardly ever offer anything constructive past that. If you were truly treated the way you claim, I'd never condone what was done and I don't think anywhere in these threads I have done so.

Frankly I find it shocking that you dismiss how older blacks were treated back in the 50's and 60's as if it were nothing. It probably was wrong that as a teenager you were charged and the other guy wasn't.. but apparently to you that is worse than someone who peacefully protested and was hit with fire hoses, bitten by dogs, and watched as their loved ones were dragged out of the house and lynched??? Really?

Man, I don't know what else to say to you on the subject without running the risk of getting kicked for a period of time so I won't. I try to make it a rule to not let things get personal between me and a faceless person on the internet. Its just not healthy.

Sorry Vers, been meaning to reply directly back to you, but I haven't had a whole lot of time on the boards as of late.

First off, I really do appreciate the support. And even though we will probably never meet, I do take it to heart hat you and your son would support an officer in need because it "might" be me.

I'll never forget the first piece of advice about being a cop I was given, and I pass it on to every rookie I come across. I was a pre-hire, meaning I had been hired, but the academy had yet to start, so I was assigned to assist in one of a bunch of different areas within the department. For me it was working in the quartermasters office. Anyway, we all got to do a ride-along with an officer for a day. I got paired up with one who had a few years experience. Discovered we were both Marines. I tell you, this guy was built like a linebacker. Looking at him I had no doubt that this dude could take anyone at anytime in the streets if need be. The first thing we do is park right in front of a house where the night before a Blood had been killed in some gang vs. gang nonsense. Pretty ballsy I'm thinking. But then look at this guy, who's going to mess with HIM?

He says to me: "as long as people give you the chance, treat them fairly and with respect. Do it even when they don't." He then when on to say that "one day I'm going to be getting my ass handed to me on the street and I won't be able to get to my radio for help. The person sitting on the porch across the street will remember me from last week, whether they were a witness to something, or I had arrested them. And they are going to remember how I treated them. Even if I arrested them, if I treated them fairly, that may be enough for them to make an anonymous 911 that gets me help."

And that's how I approach my job. And it may not be me who needs the help, but how I treat a person one day, may be the determining factor on whether or not they place that 911 call for another officer.

When it comes to discussions about race, you're right, there is a double standard. Its like the people who claim there needs to be a 'discussion on race' the most, are the same ones who refuse to hear anyone else's perspective on anything. But what does race have to do with being a decent human being? Why are so many people caught up in skin color when we SHOULD be asking why so many people choose to victimize their neighbor?

When relevant, I think most everyday people ARE willing to talk about race when there is an incident where it is an issue. But the current people in charge of the 'civil rights' movement have ZERO credibility. They talk about the number of black men killed by police in one year, use that to say that its proof of a biased system, and conclude that "black lives matter". The statistic is something that for every 1 black man are killed by a police officer (of any race)... 50 black men are killed by another black person. If "black lives matter"... why is that swept under the rug? Why aren't people protesting that? Why is that 'black lives' are treated like the N word? If your black you can drop the N word left and right and its ok, its acceptable, it means something different... but if you're white and say it, its now offensive and brings up all kind of pain. Black guy kills another black guy, "Meh, that's just life in the 'hood"... white guy i.e. cop kills a black guy for ANY reason, people threaten violence and to destroy communities! Black lives matter.. just like anyone else's. But you don't get to pick and choose when it does.

When it comes to Civil Rights, how do we go from the great abolitionists like Frederick Douglas and Grandma Moses... to people like Martin Luther King Jr and Rosa Parks... to Michael Brown???

The Eric Garner case I have yet to form a position on because the info I have heard is conflicting and I honestly haven't made the time to sort through it. But based on what I've heard from BOTh sides, I think the likely scenario is this: Officers take enforcement action on Garner for selling loosies (stupid law.. but it IS what the citizens got passed)... Garner is in very poor health but thinks he's in good enough shape to duke it out. Now I will tell you, in my experience, when someone has already started to fight or otherwise resist being arrested, they will say things like "Ow" or "I can't breathe" even though they aren't in pain or obviously can breath. They're hoping you let up just enough to give them the advantage. If it truly hurts or you can't breathe, then stop resisting. LEt them get the cuffs on. Based on what limited info I saw of the ME's report, I think Garner severely over exerted himself, beyond what his body could handle. This put him in a medically fragile state. I think it probable that the position his body was in AFTER he was handcuffed is what ultimately did him in. Even in this scenario, there would be some degree of negligence on the part of NYPD because of how he was positioned after being cuffed. Officers are taught to put arrestees in positions that aren't ultimately detrimental to them i.e. you don't put someone face down in the back of the car... there's a chance they can smother themselves. If THAT is what the Grand Jury concluded happened, it now is n o longer an excessive force issue. Admittedly I don't know NY statutes so I don't know if there is a criminal offense that covers his death as a result of negligent positioning.

But I will say that I am surprised that SOMETHING didn't come out of the Grand Jury.

I will comment on one more thing as it relates to NYPD, and that is the thousands of officers turning their back on the mayor. I agree 100% with what they are doing. I'll even go so far as to say anyone who thinks they are acting inappropriately is a hypocrite. Deblasio ran on a decidedly anti-law enforcement platform. He's allowed many of the anti-leo protests to get out of hand, even to go so far as to say his two officers were "allegedly assaulted" when it was clear that's exactly what happened. His associations with Sharpton are pretty damning. While I wouldn't say he has played AS big a role in inciting the riots and misinformation like Sharpton, Holder, and Obama has, Deblasio has had a hand in it. This is the same environment that inspired and gave motive to the man who killed the two NYPD officers. The only reason Deblasio spoke at the funerals IS to try to cover his butt politically. That's why I find it ironic he's claiming the thousands of officers turning their backs on him are the one's making it 'political'. NYPD is a tight knit family. By contributing to the current climate, Deblasio DOES hold some degree of responsibility for their deaths. He's the one who has no business being there.


I've been a cop over 5 years now. Looking at the Brown case in particular, for the first time it got me wondering if this job is even worth it. By all factual accounts, Darren Wilson was the good cop that everyone says there needs to be more of. His career is now over because of a two bit POS who acted more like Debo from Friday than the supposed teddy bear his mother would have you believe. Is it really worth the risk of having my life turned upside down when I run in to MY Michael Brown? I've directly saved 2 lives, and watched/assisted my squad mates literally save 10x that ranging from administering 1st aid to rescuing a woman from her kidnapper who later admitted he planned to kill her.
In my 2 instances I was in the right place at the right moment. I don't say that to brag, but I only talk about it because they were very humbling experiences for me. If I'm not there when I am, those two men likely die.

But is it worth it? The Brown case shows us that the mob isn't interested in the truth. Even on these boards people were calling for Wilson to be charged before any of the evidence came out. There are STILL people who think he should be put on trial to "prove his innocence". That's scary because trials are NEVER about proving your innocence. The same people who accuse Wilson and law enforcement at large of denying Brown his 'due process' would seek to do the same to him.

I'll tell you this: If Wilson were indicted in spite of the facts, you'd see an exodus from the law enforcement profession.. and the majority of those would be the good cops.

Thank you again for the support and I hope you never need us!

You realize how dumb that thinking of "it could've been worse" is?

You still clearly don't get it. What blacks went through back then is head and shoulders worse than what I could even imagine going through.

But that doesn't make what I went through any less significant for ME. I CANT relate to other people back then, so I can only based my experience off my Thought process. So for ME, right NOW, it's bad.

You're getting defensive because you're a cop. I got it. I understand. And I expct you to defend cops.

The difference? At the end of the day, I get why cops do what they have to do. Even if I don't agree with a lot of it. You still CLEARLY don't get the poor people's side of it. Nor do you seem like you want to.

Which is the entire point. So if you or others think I havent offered anything constructive past that, then you haven't been paying attention, thus provi my entire point:

I gotta understand cops, but nobody does it vise versa. Have a good day.

Do me favor and post the numbers of corporate welfare. You know the welfare where the government gives subsidies to private corporations. Our money is giving them advantage and they are using that to pad the pockets of their shareholders.

The Us government subsidizes some very big companies Walmart, Xerox, IBM, Dow Chemical, GE..... but yet people are upset with the poor. How much did we bail out wall street?

So why are people upset with the poor getting welfare?

Here is the problem, when jurors are coming out and wanting to speak because they feel that the process was wrong does not make the public think that Mr. Wilson was this squeaky clean innocent police officer.

The facts that you speak of are muddy as well as the process on how everything was handled.

_______

Michael Brown: Juror sues to speak out about case

A juror on the panel that declined to charge a Missouri police officer for killing a black teenager has filed a lawsuit to speak out about the case.

The juror wants a federal court to lift the lifetime ban on grand juries talking about their deliberations.

He or she also alleges Prosecutor Robert McCulloch was incorrect in saying all jurors agreed not to charge Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.

The grand jury decision, after months of deliberations, sparked much unrest.

Michael Brown, 18, was shot and killed by Officer Darren Wilson in August in the St Louis suburb of Ferguson, Missouri.

His death led to nationwide protests over how police treated minority communities.

The complaint, filed on Monday with the help of the American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri, seeks an injunction from the court to allow the juror to discuss the proceedings without fear of being charged.


Mr McCulloch, St Louis County prosecutor, released much of the evidence presented to the grand jury after they declined to charge Mr Wilson. Nine votes from 12 jurors were needed to charge Mr Wilson with a crime.

But the juror, who had served on a grand jury in the months prior to the Wilson case, alleges the presentation of evidence, focus of the evidence and counsel to the jury "differed markedly and in significant ways" from hundreds of previous matters presented.

In interviews with local media after the grand jury decision, Mr McCullough has said grand jurors were aware some witnesses called during proceedings were lying.


"In Plaintiff's view, the current information available about the grand jurors' views is not entirely accurate - especially the implication that all grand jurors believed that there was no support for any charges," the complaint says.

"Moreover, the public characterisation of the grand jurors' view of witnesses and evidence does not accord with Plaintiff's own."

The juror also alleges evidence was presented with the "insinuation that Brown, not Wilson, was the wrongdoer".

Lawyers for the juror say the unique circumstances around the Wilson case should outweigh the prohibition on discussing the grand jury proceedings.

"The First Amendment prevents the state from imposing a lifetime gag order in cases where the prosecuting attorney has purported to be transparent," Tony Rothert, legal director of the ACLU of Missouri, said in a statement.

I am a squeaky clean person, and EVERY Time I see a police officer behind me in my car I get nervous, EVERY TIME. I am also super nervous of the police every time I drive through suburbs at night, even the one I live in.

I understand exactly where you're coming from.

But according to devil, it's you and me with the problem.

Well technically he is correct, we do have a problem lol

Black lives do matter and if people will do just a small bit of research there are many initiatives that show how people are trying to fix the gang/crime/black on black violence. I live in Columbus and I hear of initiatives all the time, at church, local radio shows, social media, flyers. So people might feel that’s it been swept under the rug because the media is not reporting it but that doesn’t mean there is nothing happing, people just need to do a little bit of research rather than just making an opinion.

The N word…. I think it’s the same thing, how women can call each other B’s, Sl*ts and other derogatory terms and its ok. Better yet (I see it here all the time) how whites call each other derogatory names such as “red…, hon….” ect and its ok. Better yet, how gay people call themselves derogatory terms. (I have experienced this first hand from various friends) Now if I would refer to the woman/white person/gay as the derogatory term then it would be disrespectful. …Get it??


I think it’s funny that people always want to talk about how blacks can call it to each other and it’s no problem but everyone does it to their own social group based on the relationships they have with people in their social group.

Why people want to debate this specific point to death just doesn't make since considering there are so many other important things to debate about.

I've always felt there were victims on both sides of this. Are there bad cops? There certainly are. But there are a lot of good cops that get a bad wrap.

Just like the black community. The vast majority of those who wish to take action concerning those bad cops are not rioters, looters and violent criminals. Yet on both sides, the media accentuates the negative. They help divide people, not point out anything positive.

And yes, bad cops could be eliminated if the good cops would call them out. It could also be said that if those with peaceful intentions would call out those violent protestors that cause the voices of the peaceful protestors to go unheard, this would also help.

But there's plenty of victims to go around on both sides of the fence in this situation. Picking a side and pointing the finger at either side only helps continue the division and does nothing to help solve the problem for either side.

Yes, we have troubles and mistrust between African Americans and the Police but in the case of Fergusion, the kid had just robbed a store and attacked the Police officer. The kid was out of control and brought about his own death by his own actions.
Next you have witnesses LYING under oath to the grand jury! Turns out they were not even there!

Pick your battles wisely. Get your own house in order. Then maybe I will listen to rational citizens complaints. The complaints of out of control, lying, violent citizens fall on deaf ears.

I absolutely no not want to offend anyone, but there is a reason why many Black people are looked upon more suspiciously than White people.

Black people are 13.2% of the total US population, 2013 Census Data yet according to the FBI, commit a disproportionate level of certain crimes.

2012 FBI Data

Blacks committed the following percentages of specific crimes:

28.1% of all crimes
49.4 % of all murder and manslaughter
32.5% of forcible rape
54.9% of robberies
34.1% of aggravated assaults
30.8% of vehicle theft.

The rest are there as well. I wonder why the statistics do not break out those of Hispanic descent as well. They only track White, Black, Asian, or Native American. Those numbers have to include Black Hispanic, and White Hispanics in the Black and White numbers.

I think that a lot of that has to do with poverty, but some has to do with culture. According to the report, Black juveniles accounted for 51.5% of all juveniles arrested for violent crimes. That is a huge number given their overall percentage of the US population in general. Why do police profile? Because, unfortunately, the numbers often say to do so.

However, I think that law enforcement needs to do a better job of working with people of color and communities of color .... but also that those people and communities of color need to do a better job of working with law enforcement. It has to be a 2 way street. There are too many people blaming one side or the other. We all have to work together to find solutions that work for all law abiding people.

I can see why police may stop a Black driver in certain circumstances, but those stops should be done in an absolutely respectful manner, keeping the Constitutional protection of "innocent until proved guilty" in mind. (and also remembering that drivers pay taxes, which support the salaries of police and other safety services) Police should not being their own biases to the traffic stop, but rather conduct the stop, and if nothing seems out of the ordinary, nothing that would cause that officer to take further action against any other driver, then the Black driver should be allowed to be on his/her way without any further disruption to their day.

In the end,we are going to have to figure this out, or implode. If we are to figure it out, it cannot just be one side doing so. The police can institute changes, but if those changes do nothing to address concerns of Black people, then they do not accomplish their goals. Conversely, if the concerns of Black people are addressed without the concerns of police also being taken into consideration, then it will be a wasted effort. One thing I am certain of is that while I don't know what solutions we can arrive at, if a conversation never starts, then any solutions with any value are highly unlikely.

The problem with profiling is that it singles out a specific group of people, and if you are profiling that specific subset of people you are going to have more arrests in that subset. Also you are not factoring in that these juveniles are not getting the same opportunities that other races are getting and are judged more harshly then others.

Think of it this way if a police officer pulls over 10 juveniles and 7 of them are black, 2 are hispanic and 1 is white. The data says that you will have a higher amount of the black juveniles being arrested at a higher percentage because they are being stopped more.

Perfect example with the Fegurson event, the search rate was 12.13% for blacks while the white search rate was 6.85% almost double the amount, however the white contraband hit rate which says that they had some type of illegal contraband on them was 34% while blacks with some type of contraband was 21%. So factual data says more black guys were stopped then white guys but more white guys had illegal contraband... Also to the arrest rate for blacks were 10.43% while the arrest whites were 5.25%. This is interesting because whites who were searched less, had more illegal contraband but they went to jail twice as less. Do you see how this plays out? imagine that happening across the country and much worse and bigger cities like Cleveland, Chicago, LA.



http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

I will like to also add that these juveniles are judged more harshly in the court of law which is another big reason why some of the data is inflated. For example lets say black guy gets in a drunken fight a bar, they might get a tougher charge such as battery, resisting arrest, while their white counterparts might get disorderly conduct charge or put in the drunk tank for the night and released in the morning for the same exact drunken bar fight.

So are blacks inherently more prone to violence and crime, or are there other external factors that lead to these numbers?

(if there's any words there you don't understand, I would recommend looking them up before answering)

Are you saying they were born this way, like Gays?

A lot of people think it's inaccurate to say that poverty may be more responsible for the over representation of blacks in crime statistics.

Blacks also are over represented in poverty statistics, but it's become accepted to state they only have themselves to blame.

A question mark (the curved line with the dot under it) at the end of a sentence (that's the collection of words) indicates a query, which is a request for information or opinion.

I got save that for a a later discussion lol.

Dude you're killing me lol.