DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Mike Pettine

That sounds great an theory. But I believe if you look at the vast majority of successful NFL teams, you'll find that if we never have a great QB, we'll end up looking a lot more like Cincy than Green Bay. But to each their own.

Pit, would you consider Eli Manning great? No, not saying Johnny is equal. Eli had a terrible first year too. Flaco is another....good or great?

I always thought the level of a QB makes a great discussion, but it always goes to heck about the third post!

Find it interesting that Bridgewater won just 1 away game, against Tampa (19-13 OT), in all his starts. Is he a dome QB?

Minnesota didn't play in a dome.

I believe that Minnesota played at U-Minn's stadium this year, which is an open-air stadium.

Our WRs were not a strength. We did not have anyone that could go up and get the ball. Our best WR was a past-his-prime Austin who didn't make it through the season.

We had a bunch of complimentary WRs playing as 1s and 2s. It was not a strength of the team. Gabriel's 621 are not impressive nor predict future success. Someone had to catch the ball. Hell, Greg Little had 709 yards and 2 TDs his rookie year. Gabriel is a dime a dozen receiver.

I think your assumptions are off with Shanahan believing WRs are plug and play. It was evident with his playcalling how enamored he was with Gordon once he returned.

While it may not be completely fair to judge a draft, specifically the first round after year 1, the play on field is a good indicator for future success. In fact, I don't recall a player(s) we drafted that failed so miserably their first years and went on to thrive in the future. Warren? No. Brown? No. Green? No. Quinn? No. Weeden? No. Richardson? No. Wimbley? No. Couch? No. Faine? No.

What a list. I'd say our biggest adversary is not the Steelers, but the first round of the draft.

Bottom line, Farmer's first round draft class appears to be a complete and utter failure that may continue to set the franchise back. What's new.

Not only didn't they play well for us they didn't play well for anyone after we got rid of them. It's sad, a lot of wasted high picks. That's one of the biggest reasons we don't win.

Tab, being the best QB for the Browns since 1999 wouldn't put you in "the great" category. Don't be so defensive man. I believe the difference between a sold starter and a "great QB" is pretty obvious.

Just pointing out that your hyperbole is a little over the top sometimes. No biggie.

You do understand that in Shanahan's offense, there typically won't be "one receiver" who dominates the scene, but rather a spread the ball around philosophy. Shanahan gets guys open with scheme, and we had numerous guys who ran wide open and were just missed. We had guys wide open who would have scored with better throws. The receivers did a really nice job this year. Are they small? Yep. Did adding a big and big play receiver in Gordon help the team? Nope. Shanahan's offense is a precision offense.

Our receivers did a very nice job of operating within the offense.

Yes, I understand that Shanahan spreads the ball around. Much like 95% of the rest of the NFL teams do.

He schemes to get guys open? Groundbreaking! Other OCs that scheme to keep guys covered should take note.

As far as the "one receiver" who dominates, see Andre Johnson's numbers with Shanahan as the OC in 2008 and 2009.

The reason he may have appeared to spread it around more in Washington is because they had mediocre WRs like Jabar Gaffney, for example, much like the Browns. They made a point to go out and get a top FA WR in Pierre Garcon when given the chance.

Gordon's a knucklehead who will likely never help this team.

Actually, if you look at his schemes, they are very innovative. Look at Shurmer's offense, which is also a WCO based system, and we struggled to get guys open. If our receivers stunk, then how did we get guys so wide open so frequently?

Garcon wasn't a prime wide receiver until he thrived in Shanahan's offense. Prior to his big year with Shanahan, his biggest season was 947 yards. That is respectable, but hardly groundbreaking. He was a free agent target, but hardly a guy that teams everywhere wanted to throw huge dollars at. That one year was the one that got him a free agent deal with DC. That is also the 2nd best season of his career. (behind his huge season in 2013) Other than that, he has been remarkably ordinary.

This year with the Redskins, he caught 68 passes for only 752 yards. For comparison, Hawkins caught 63 for 824 yards. Gabriel caught 36 for 621 yards. Our top 4 receivers had a higher yards/catch average than Garcon. (Gordon did too, in lesser duty) All of our TE had a higher yards/catch average than Garcon. People can say that the Skins had QB problems, but so did we. He is a good WR, but I like Hawkins just as well. Our WR did not get the chance to catch a lot of "gimme" type TD passes, because we ran the ball so well in close. We were ont of the best years in 3rd/4th and 2 or less, and in goal to go from the 2 or less. Other teams ran play action off of those situations. We just stuffed the ball into the end zone. We had 17 rushing TD, the 4th most in the NFL. That limited TD opportunities for our receivers.

Man, how many times did we have receivers running just completely wide open that went unseen by the QB? I bet that there were probably 1-2 in every game. Those are opportunities a team has to take advantage of. I bet that we would easily have had 2 1000 yard+ receivers if we had a higher quality of QB play, consistently throughout the season.

This scheme Shanahan runs is very good. We have a pair of very good receivers. Do I think that we need another receiver to add to the collection? Yes. I would also bring Austin back, as he was a sort of player/coach when he was injured, helping the receivers see things on the field. I am unsure what to think of Benjamin, I think that he needs to show a lot in the return game early in camp ..... or else really dominate camp at WR, or he could easily be gone.

The Browns have consistently said that Shanahan doesn't need big cost targets in his offense, and he has proved it many times. Has he used them when he has had them? Sure, Who wouldn't? However, he has had success with his system, even without the big names.

I think that those who expect us to take a WR in the 1st round, or even in the 2nd round, will be sorely disappointed. Someone posted an article that said that the Browns will probably bring in Shorts and attempt to sign him as a free agent. He is a very good WR, but hardly a guy who competes for the title of best in the NFL. he is a quality piece though, and I suspect that is what we want ... pieces that fit.

I would think 'belongs in the NFL' is a step that comes before 'solid'

For whatever it's worth, I tend to agree with you that Manziel will not be an "average" type QB. When we drafted him I said that I thought that he would be a huge boom/bust risk, but was a chance worth taking. He is incredibly talented, but he has to bring that talent to an NFL system, and study and prepare like never before. I think that a lot of stuff came so easily to him until this year that he was stunned when he went out and laid as huge an egg as he did against Cincinnati. Hopefully it was a wakeup call, and he dedicates himself 100% to his profession. I think that he can be a very successful QB if he does, or a huge bust if he does not. I do think that the talent is there.

The conversation wasn't about Shanahan and if he was good or OC or not. I've stated in a previous thread I think he is a solid OC.

What I disagreed with was that our WRs were a strength of the team. I think they are very average.

I don't think anyone is going to claim they were great.

"Average" is pretty good for what we had.. Hawkins fell off towards the end of the season..

And everyone crying about Watkins..

Watkins: 65 catches 128 targets, 982 yards 6 tds
Gabriel: 36 catches 71 targets, 621 yards 1 td

We got "comparative" stats from an UDFA..

and drafting Watkins apparently makes your HC quit!!!

Wait, what? So nearly double the receptions, 50% more receiving yards and 6x more TDs and that's comparative??

Listen, I'm not completely bagging on our WR group. Overall, I believe it is a very average group.

Yes, nearly double the receptions.

128 targets.
71 targets.

What a coincidence....

You win. Watkins and Gabriel are pretty much the same.

Yeah.. that's exactly what I was saying...

That's why I stated "pretty much"

You need a lesson in Math..

Well, you're a really bright guy, so help me out.

At no point was I comparing the players themselves...

I was comparing the stats we got out of a UDFA versus the stats for the #4 overall pick..

Basically twice as many receptions, with only 50% more yards? With twice as many receptions, math would tell you he would have twice as many yards. Pretty simple math.

Now, the td's - that's a different story.

Still don't see where my 'math' was wrong. Now, the story behind the math is another matter.

orrrrr..... it tells you that they are two totally different types of receivers that get totally different types of looks.

One is a #1 type that is often the primary read, the other is a role player normally in slot duty that tends to get big chunks because defenses overlook him as he isn't in on that many snaps.

Prp...I think you've cracked the code. Well done!

We had 17 rushing TD this past season. Buffalo had 7. They gave their receivers a lot more opportunities for TD catches.

People complained cause we didn't draft WRs when they knew about Gordon..

I feel like had we drafted a WR in the 1st round, and then the news came out.. people would of complained that we didn't draft ANOTHER WR..

Regardless.. Are we as a team that much better with Watkins? or Odell?

Hell if Odell doesn't make Crazy Amazing Catch on Prime Time (in a game they lost btw) he's just another Rookie WR that had a good rookie season..

Which still beats crappy rookie CB who can't beat out an UDFA and 4th rounder or crappy rookie QB who looked like an UDFA, no?

We could of drafted Odell and Kelvin Benjamin.

We still don't win more than 7 games this year..

I'm not going to defend the Manziel pick..

But going forward I believe in Gilbert's talent. I loved the pick at the time.. And will be rooting for him..

I'm not sure I'd call 91 catches, 1,305 yards and 12TDs in just 12 games just another good rookie year either. But that's just my opinion.

Beckham led the NFL in yard per game.

I agree we may not have won more games this year, but the future might be a little brighter moving forward.

You are arguing w/hard heads.

I think Shanny's play design and route trees made our WRs look way better than they actually were. I didn't see a lot of great moves or routes. I didn't see a lot of broken tackles. I saw guys coming wide open by play design.

I will say one thing about our WRs, though...........that little Gabriel guy is a baller. He's a tough little guy who ran the best routes on the team. His hands were pretty sure. He seemed to make some hot reads. Pretty good little player. I like the kid.

If the ball hits Gabriel on just the plays he had the defender beaten horribly, he easily has a dozen TDs. It wasnt just on the bombs but he was wide open in the redzone \often as well and was overthrown by a country mile. I was really shocked at this kids level of skill. He is a hard target to jam. He runs great routes. He gets open deep like Steve Smith. He was a steal.