DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns parting ways with OC Kyle Shanahan and QB coach Dowell Loggains

I agree.

Between Hoyer's tailspin and the suffocation of the media, he didn't have much of a choice.

In my opinion, Pettine stood up against the panic move as long as he could.

I don't blame him for that. Brian Hoyer and the media/fanbase played a hand in his options.

It's naive to pretend that the media and fanbase don't play a role.

I think the FO dictated that Johnny Drunk play and the coaching staff was overruled.

Also factor in Chud's firing after 1 season. No, Hoyer wasn't getting it done, but the team still had not given up on him. If Haslam hadn't already shown he's willing to jettison a head coach after 1 season, I think he would have ridden the season out with Hoyer.

I think everyone knew Manziel wasn't anywhere ready, coaches to players. But if Pettine wants to be here next year, he's got to give the boss what he wants doesn't he?

At the point in the season Manziel was called on he probably should have played. The season was pretty much over and Hoyer turned back into a pumpkin.

I think you're smart enough to know that things aren't as black and white as you make them.

Man, when you get on a track, it's like a train going 110 mph with no brakes. You allow yourself to believe that things are in a certain identical fashion. You latch on to anything that will support that, and scoff at anything that states differently.

Even if your "connecting of the dots" is accurate, it's still not as black and white as you make it. On any issue.

I'm not ttying to get into a pissing match with you. I'll leave that for you and PDR. But you come across as only being able to see one side of any given issue. And I know you're smarter than that.

Thanks for the discussion on Shanny, Manziel, and the FO.

Hope you feel better now...

I do. Thank you.

I agree. With the way Hoyer was playing, something had to be done. You have a first round qb on the bench and it's not unreasonable to play him in week 15 to see if he sinks or swims.

I don't see how anyone can think Hoyer is a viable starting NFL QB unless they are so emotionally invested in his story that they can't make a rational judgment on the guy.

I am not a huge Hoyer fan because I think his arm let us down many times during the season. I also noticed how he started throwing off his back foot when pressured during the middle of the season and onward.

However, I thought he looked a heckuva lot better than Manziel and I supported the drafting of Manziel. I can admit when I am wrong. And Hoyer was way better than Manziel. It wasn't even close.

Hoyer has some limitations, but we did have some success w/him. We did lose three offensive Pro Bowlers for most of the season. That has to count for something.

I don't think he is a franchise qb, but I don't think it is as black and white as your comment suggests.

I think you have to consider the following things before you conclude he's not a viable starter:

1. The chance he could get better with more experience.
2. The fact that he was coming off an ACL.
3. The fact that he played his best when he was calling plays on the field in a hurry up. Shows he's smart.
4. The fact that he just might be the best option this off season.

I don't think anyone would claim he's a franchise guy. But I think he's the best option for next year. And I don't think he's a finished book yet.

That sounds like a load of excuses. When he needed to perform he didn't. And not only did he not perform but he was atrocious. Like worse than Brandon Weeden atrocious. He is a good backup. The only reason I would have him be a starter is because there are no better options. I think he might be one of the best QBs available, but he has almost no upside. We aren't going to win more than seven games with him as our QB. I wish things were different because I genuinely like the guy.

Are you sure BTTB?
-------------------------------------

YES

I'd have a hard time believing Loggains wanted no part of Manziel based on the gushing he did earlier in the year. That wasn't toeing the company line type speak. He sounded in love with the guy. Not to mention it's been fairly well reported that he wanted him to start from day one.

When looking at any and all accounts, it becomes extremely difficult to buy the premise that Loggains wasn't a fan of Manziel.

Pettine, on the other hand, seemed clearly put off by Manziel. I've never seen a head coach talk so dejectedly about a starting QB. Pettine is very keen with the media, but even he couldn't hide his despair and fear.

Shanahan, I've heard it both ways. Some say he wanted him, some say he didn't. I don't know what to think there, but the fact that the kid was so utterly lost leads me to hope/believe no one on our staff thought it was a good idea.

The more that comes out, the less upset I am that Shanahan is gone

I'll take that a step further, it could be said that during the 2014 season, Shanahan and Loggain's first priority was to get Manziel ready to play football. In that sense, they failed miserably. For that reason alone, they probably deserved to be fired.

I agree with this entire post.

Hoyer had quite arguably the worst 4 game starting stretch in the history of the Browns. I still cannot fathom how any QB could lose the Indy game and, yes, Hoyer lost the Indy game 100x more than any other player in that game.

I love the story and the reported work ethic of Hoyer. but, I think he's maxed out what he can do and that is a really good backup QB to a bad starting QB option (see: Orton, Fitzpatrick, etc.). That's not a bad gig and I'd love to re-sign him to be a backup. I just know that is not likely.

I don't know what to do about Manziel (most of it's up to him and I am going to believe very little until we see him play again because we won't know how hard he IS or ISN'T working). Obviously, what he gave his rookie year wasn't enough.

We should be looking to acquire another starting QB. It doesn't mean we'll find one this offseason, which is so frustrating especially considering our division and schedule (the Wests) next year.

I agree. I think Loggains was head over heels for Manziel. I think Loggain even said in the Arkansas radio interview that he think Johnny could start Day 1 in the NFL and win.

Pettine was in Hoyer's corner until he couldn't be any longer.

The only one that imho did not want Manziel to strt much earlier was Pettine. He wanted to avoid playing the rookie. I also think everyone was on board with the selection of Manziel. they were all gushing over the pick including Farmer, Haslam, Shanny and Loggains. Pettine seemed determined from day 1 to put the rookie in his place. I admire him for it.

I want to comment on those saying Haslam forced Johnny on them, and about the text messages.

First, Haslam owns the team. Haslam also has been around football for years, his family has also. I find it funny that people expect guy to pay a billion dollars for a team, and then hide in a closet. Isn't that what Lerner did.

Posters on this board think they are smarter than professional FO people in the NFL, and often claim they would know better what move to make. But I want to ask this question, if you owned the team, and watched Hoyer fall apart and basically kill your chances at the playoffs, wouldn't you try to have some input on what should be one?

If an owner sits by, knowing he has a first round pick on the bench, and lets the team falter from bad QB play and says nothing, then he should not own the team.

IMO, personal dislike for Haslam has taken over many folks thought process. He has every right to"meddle" in decisions the team makes, he friggin owns it.

As for the text messages, I say the story has been trumped up by the media looking for viewers. First of all, has anybody seen coaches on the sidelines texting? I doubt highly that any coach was being texted by the FO. To me it would appear that somebody upstairs was texting someone not on the coaching staff and made comments about play calls and such. That person probably mentioned the texts to somebody on the staff and pissed them off. To think Haslam or Farmer actually texted coaches complaining during the game, in my eyes is so far fetched it is hilarious.

My last point is this. If you owned this team and saw what was going on, just as many of us have stated in game threads and post game threads, wouldn't you start questioning the staff you hired about it. The play calls made when Manzeil was in were atrocious, I would want answers from someone.

As for Shanahan wanting out, signing a two year contract with an opt out clause is all anybody needs to look at. I don't think he ever wanted the job, and took it as a last chance effort to get a paycheck. The development of manzeil was directly on him and Loggains. They failed miserably. The kid was not prepared, and that is on the staffs resume'.

I find it hard to believe that they couldn't see that the kid was not progressing. Nothing was said all year about his preparation, and when anything was said it wasn't negative. Shanahan comes across as someone who believes he is smarter than everyone else, and that type of person is dangerous in a team situation.

The playcalling at first was good. I attribute that to it being unknown to opponents. But as the season progressed, it became repetitious and sometimes predictable. Pettine lets his coaches coach, and I believe the RB situation was the doing of Shanahan and Montgomery. To me when Shanny changed the play calls for Johnny, it was stupid. Hoyer was doing roll outs, which was supposed to be one of Johnnies strengths, but yet, when he was playing, most calls were for staying in the pocket, and the ridiculous read option crap.

I think Kyle is a good coach, and does design plays well, but I also see him as a power hungry type, that is upset when questioned. I see him going with his father somewhere, so he can do as he pleases without question. IMO, those two ruined RG3, and nothing said can make me believe differently.

It is done now, we need a new guy. I hope the players keep their budding optimism and winning drive through the change, but do not look forward to watching a whole new system being installed and the time needed to adjust to it.

I'm saying I have no idea how one could come to the conclusion that Loggains wanted nothing to do with Manziel.

The guy did everything short of kiss Manziel on the mouth. It was blatantly obvious that he loved him.

wasn't Dowell the guy Johnny texted to draft him and wreck this league?

I don't think anyone has attempted to argue that he doesn't have the right.

But if you have an owner who is pushing to draft a late round project QB in the first, or pushing for him to start when he's clearly nowhere near ready to...then that's a pretty strong sign that you don't know what you're doing, and yeah, that's a problem.

And I don't know that a preconceived 'personal dislike' plays a role in why people don't like him so much as the fact that he's been a joke and the laughingstock of the league since he got here.

I can't say for certain that he 'meddled' regarding Manziel, but I suspect as much, and if that's the case, yes, it absolutely is problematic for the franchise going forward.

I didn't say what I said out of a sense that everyone should have the same opinion as me.

I said it because there is absolutely no evidence to suggest Loggains wanted nothing to do with Manziel, and a heap of evidence to suggest he adored him.

Literally no one would agree with the sentiment that Loggains wanted nothing to do with Manziel.

No one.



I never said I wasn't snarky and condescending. I very much am.

What I've said many times is that it's not a disposition that suits you, as you're very thin-skinned and whine if someone is condescending back at you.

If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

How does anybody Know he pushed for Johnny to start? This is one of the things that bother me, nobody has proof he did this.

I don't know the details behind the Loggains/Manziel situation, I do know that Loggains overstepped his bounds in several different situations and that put the team in a tight spot.

I am glad to see him gone and I think it says a lot that he is the only guy on the staff that got straight up fired.

As I said in my post, I don't know that he did, but I suspect as much.

If our coaching staff who saw him every day thought he was ready...that's pretty scary.

I've been wary of him since the "wreck this league" story that made the organization look like buffoons.

Even worse is that he wasn't fired after telling it, which leads me to give credence to its validity.

Yeah, I would have fired him right there on the spot. That is hard to do at that point in the off-season and we already had enough trouble fillinf out our staff as it was.

Like I said, I am glad Loggains is gone for several different reasons.

Just so I'm clear...you feel this story gives the impression that Loggains wanted nothing to do with Manziel?

I hadn't read that since it happened. With hindsight it looks like the worst thing that Loggains could have possibly said.

cfr and nologo, I don't mind standing by myself on this one.

I am not willing to close the book on Hoyer as a finished product. And in light of the circumstances, I think we should bring him back as the starter. I just don't see any better options.

I think it's very easy to be down on him. And I think the odds that he becomes more than he is now are probably low. But that doesn't dismiss any of the points I made and certainly doesn't make them a load of excuses. The fact is we don't know what he can be. The sample size isn't large enough.

I think we give up on people - players, coaches, FO - way too early sometimes. It has become part of the culture of being a Browns fan. We never take the time to develop anyone or let anyone grow into their job. We expect perfection day 1, season 1. And while we hold out for that magic formula that will produce that, the Ravens are building themselves a January Joe and the Bengals are winning with a guy named Dalton. These organizations are developing and growing their players. We are starting over every year expecting instant results.

We are not a laughing stock because we lose way more games than we win. We are a laughing stock because we never stick it out with anyone.

Johnny Manziel said he wasn't prepared as much as he could have been when he started Week 15.

Dowell Loggins wanted him to start Week 1.

What exactly did Loggins do this season?

I can understand not wanting to make a coaching move after you'd just had so many documented issues getting guys in, but if I'm Farmer or Haslam, I fire that guy immediately. I would be embarrassed.

The fact they didn't - or at least publicly scold him- makes me think it happened that way.

Last week, the Cleveland Browns accepted the resignation of offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan and fired quarterbacks coach Dowell Loggains. On Saturday, head coach Mike Pettine released a statement through the team, as did Shanahan.

Pettine on the Resignation of Shanahan & Firing of Loggains


"After conversations with Kyle this week we’ve determined that it would be in the best interest of the Cleveland Browns that he pursue other opportunities and we have accepted his resignation. In Dowell’s case, it was a difficult decision but one that we felt we had to make. We wish them both well. Our focus quickly turns to finding an outstanding coach to lead our offense and I am confident we will bring in highly qualified individuals to help us develop, improve, and achieve the success we are all seeking. I look forward to working with the staff as we go through this process to bring in coaches committed to helping the Cleveland Browns lay a strong foundation to take our offense to a consistently high level in the 2015 season and beyond."

Shanahan on His Departure & How He Was Portrayed


"I appreciate the opportunity Mike Pettine, Ray Farmer and Jimmy Haslam gave me to lead the Browns offense in 2014. The Browns organization is committed to improvement and winning. I regret how the inner workings of the organization were represented publicly over the last few days. Ray and Mike both have the work ethic, experience and talent to work together to turn this organization into a winner. In light of the circumstances, I have decided to resign. I’m grateful for my time with the Browns and wish them great success going forward."

The writing was on the wall for Loggains being fired. He is the person who foolishly went on the radio and conveyed the message that Jimmy Haslam wanted Johnny Manziel. Whether his version of the story was valid doesn't matter -- once he put it out there, it's going to stick in everyone's head. Also, he wasn't able to help Brian Hoyer snap out of his midseason slump, nor was he able to have Manziel prepared when it was time for him to start.

This is a bad look for Shanahan. It's the second time in as many years that he has departed an organization on shaky terms, and one could say that the problem is more with Shanahan's inability to work with others rather than the Browns having any wrongdoing.

Cleveland's search for an offensive coordinator is ongoing, and we've already covered several potential candidates.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/1/11/7...anahan-loggains

yea they did. they made him wear a im stupid hat for a day.