DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Did Dr. King's Dream Happen?

Yes, no, why, provide an explanation.

I say no. And I cite this reason - a black person can never escape being black.

If a black man can speak intelligently, they're 'articulate'. When's the last time you heard a white athlete called articulate?

If you write a great book you're a black author.

If you make a great movie you're a black director.

If you are funny as hell you're a black comedian.

As a white artist...I would lose my damn mind if my ethnicity was the first adjective to describe whatever I chose to do.

We have made progress, so I don't mean to be a complete cynic...

But who here is willing to argue the dream became a reality?

Don't ask that question, unless you're truly willing to read a post that will make your eyes bleed.


Clemmy got himself a LOT to say about THIS issue, yo.....



(more to come later)

A nationally segregated school system, continued police injustice, and lack of willingness to rationally discuss race issues points towards no.

Jim Crow laws are gone. But, we see issues still pop up. No one wants to talk about redlining...

I'm reluctant to say no because some people may think I'm accusing them of being racists.

It certainly is a different world than the one when he made his speech, but race is still a deciding factor in many things.

Unfortunately most discussions fall along the lines of, "blacks are responsible for their own success or failures because anyone can succeed if they work hard enough". Some people believe that students can pay their own tuition like we did in the 70's. They believe that because we worked hard at a minimum wage back then and we could still manage to feed ourselves and pay rent then it's just as easy for anyone to do the same today.

Blacks did not come here with a plan or an ability to create a new identity. They came out of slavery with less than nothing. Many immediately became victims to the share cropping strategy to maintain cheap and dependent labor and when they escaped from that they still easily identified as a person who had little education and were assumed to have corrupt values. Many are still at a similar economic disadvantage today.

IMO the economy today is responsible for anyone who's already in poverty to remain there with little hope for advancement. Of course there's always hope, but in reality it's a fantasy.

Now there are something like 80 people controlling the world's wealth and there are still people claiming we are victims of socialism and anyone struggling is lazy and only want to sit while others do the work.

And unfortunately it is still a very common practice, though improving, to identify people by color, race or gender. Terms used to identify identical qualities shared by all races and genders are selectively altered for each race and gender.

I hope to read all of what you have to say on this issue.

As for DR King's dream I would have to say it is coming true just not fast enough.

One could argue we have gone backwards.

I would hope no one.

Progress has been made, but we have a long way to go yet. That progress has setbacks, and times of slow progress, but progress is being made.

I have said many times on this board that equality will take generations to advance, and there will always be some exceptions, but one day equality will be the "norm".

Each generation of children have more tolerance and acceptance of other races/religions/cultures/genders/etc etc etc. I attribute that to exposure to those differences at young ages, and the chance to make friends with differences before societies prejudices can taint their young minds.

Sadly, even then, some develop prejudice and hate later, which they learn from those around them, events that happen in their lives, and other influences.

Agreed.

We have a long way to go. Just watched a documentary on the O.J. trial. The verdict brought sharp disparity of reaction depending upon race. This tells me we can not yet look at the facts in this country without letting race color our emotion and opinion.

This would not be a desireable outcome in the eys of MLK Jr..

We have a long way to go but many struggle daily to keep the progress moving forward toward the dream....which by the way, has become the dream of many since this incredible human being shared it with the world on August 28, 1963 in D.C..

We're entirely too divided along racial lines in this country. We care sooooooo much about race that it becomes a dividing line.

I live in Western PA in some redneck towns and I still hear things like "Theres too many blacks there" and then I hear kids on my basketball team say "white man aint helping the black man enough"

I think there is a LARGE amount of issues within this country that are race related. I think that Minorities have this me against the world mentality that very much hurts their case. Black culture needs to stand united, but look only to big cities like Chicago and Detroit and other such places and you see them cutting each other down.

If you listen to the track Wolves on Dead Prez's Let's Get Free album...you get a terrific insight into the way our nation divides itself along racial lines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJktslo1P2w

On the track a man says...and I'm paraphrasing but I linked a video with the track

In the wild, hunters will bury a blade in the ice and let the ice freeze around it and they put blood on the blade. Then the wolf will come and lick the blade and cut his tongue, and bleed himself to death as he keeps licking the blade thinking he's eating but he's killing himself...and he goes on to say that the introduction of crack/cocaine in the black community has done the same thing...

Now...he says that you can blame the wolf...but you should blame the hunter.

In my opinion, you blame both.


I think that racial lines have been divided generally on these two principals...

White America...feels threatened in the whole equality push because...Minorities are minorities because there are less of the minorities...and the feeling that things should be equal threatens the notion that the majority gets the majority of things...If 75% of Americans are a part of White America...but they only get 50% of things...that's a problem for them...So They're doing whatever it takes to get and stay on top. I don't want to have less because equality is important. I want what I want...And they've become resentful of that fact...and it causes them to dislike. It's an entitlement to the American dream that they don't seem to understand...The American dream is that you arrive, and you earn your keep. If you work harder than everyone else...you get more than everyone else. And if you work hard, and don't have a lot...then you aren't working smart enough, and need to improve your work. You can work your butt off at Walmart or McDonalds or wherever but if you don't add anything...youre gonna stay where you are. Be valuable and youll receive more value.

Black America...feels very held down...but in my opinion needs to come together better to stand up for itself and get whats theirs. Now...Theres two things in my opinion that are keeping them from rising up to a point where they don't feel disrespected is the feeling that conforming to current societal ways is selling out. And hey...I don't disagree, why would you want to succeed at someone elses game...especially when that someone else has consistently told you you aren't good enough. So theres an impasse there. The other is that much of the time is spent cutting each other down as well...which cuts off an solidarity in ANY way shape or form down.
That makes it tough. If the entirety of black culture went the way of Diddy and Jay-Z and Obama and Oprah where they perfect a craft and provide value to the masses theyd be selling out to the White American system and way of life...Jay-Z did it a very different way. But lets say the entirety of Black culture gave up what has kept them poor in big cities, and went to school, excelled in school, and got an education, and a comfortable job, and lived the white American way...they wouldn't be happy with it because theyre living someone else's dream...and white America would think that they "made it" its a flawed system and its unreasonable to expect anyone to embrace a system that has held them back...

So where do we go in that regard...white America would embrace those that embraced their system, but minorities don't want to live that life. Black culture especially is divided in it because they've been held back by that very system and those in charge.

I think American society as a whole is flawed.

The entitlement of Americans has destroyed quality and solidarity amongst all of us...though it has manifested itself in many many different ways. The "I deserve" because I was born and I live here is killing America. That and an emphasis and priority placed in the wrong direction is killing our ability to be great as we once were.
We want our kids to be happy and successful, but in that, were losing the drive to achieve it.

A large part of Dr. King's message needs to be applied to everyone...
He may not have spoke it but he lived it...
If you want something...Work for it. Strive for it, and take EVERY opportunity to go get it. Don't complain about it. Don't say you deserve it. Go get it, and do it in a way that is respectable to you, and to those around you.

Black, White, or any race/ethnicity/skin color. Respect yourself...and this country will respect you. Value yourself, and this country will value you.

His dream has not been realized. But more because his dream is not being strived for correctly.

The European fault is that...it worked for us...so it should work for you...fall in, is killing the dream...and the you have held me down...so get bent...is killing the dream as well.
Where do we go from here?

I have a lot to say about this ... but I will need a lot of time to really put my thoughts together in a coherent manner. I tried here and now, and failed miserably, so I will have to start over at a better time.

However, I will say this: We can never "accomplish" Dr King's Dream. Never. The best we can ever hope for is to get most of the way there, and continue to fight to prevent the spread of ideas from those will always resist. Dr King's dream cannot be an "end" but has to be a continuing process, because the human heart will never be perfect. There will always be pettiness, and hatred .... and a need for some people to look upon others as less than they are. Some will always look at those who are different as being inferior. As long as we are talking about human beings, this will continue to varying extents, based upon the times.

We need to be on guard at all times, because any such battle can never be accomplished. It can never be a final victory. Look at how the Jews were treated by the Nazis. Can't happen to any other group, and/or here in America? Never bet against the desperation of people, and the willingness of one group of people to blame another for bad times. We must always stand against the seeds of such dangerous ideas again taking root. I would guess that there will always be 10% or so of people who will always hate another group. The will have no reason for their hatred, but rather simply hate, or maybe "just" distrust, for no reason at all other than the way they were brought up. We can try to contain such petty hatreds, but the human heart will never accept rational arguments to their darker demons.

Anyway, I hope that I can manage to put the rest of my thoughts on this into a reasonable order at a later time.

I think it would be very difficult for anyone to even try to argue that his Dream happened. I think a lot of it NOT coming to fruition has a lot to do with the fact that the leadership of the modern Civil Rights movement have abandoned MLK's principles.

Too much of the subject of 'race' is actually about politics... Rep or Dem, Con or Lib. Let's take people like Justice Thomas, Sec Rice, Sen Scott, Rep Love... they all have incredible stories and in their successes have achieved a level of historical prominence. Yet, they are called Uncle Toms, traitors to their race, puppets of the White Man. The NAACP took several days before they even commented on Scott and Love winning their elections, and even then it wasn't really congratulatory.

Even if Dr. King disagreed with some of their politics and philosophy, I have a very hard time believing that he would consider them 'less black' and seek to marginalize their success and historical importance.


I'm not so sure that the gap between black and whites is expanding, but it may be getting sharper. There are many things that the modern movement does that is actually counter productive. How often are we told there "needs to be a discussion about race in this country"? And how often when white people try to participate in that discussion, is the door slammed in their face? MOST people in this country are not racist in terms of the true definition of the word and their tired of being told they are when they aren't.

The history Civil Rights in America unarguably is the story about what was initially the freeing of black people from slavery to ultimately equal standing, respect, and opportunity. While black people are the main character in that story, there is a strong supporting character in the form of the thousands and millions of white people who have joined that struggle, often risking and sacrificing much. Hundreds of thousands of Northern soldiers died in the Civil War (at least 110k due to actual conflict). Many risked much as part of the Underground Railroad.

Fast forward to Dr. King's day. I wish I could pull up the article, but I had seen somewhere that nearly 1/3 of people lynched, were white. They were killed because they were collaborating with black people. Look at the pictures of the marches... there certainly wasn't a shortage of white faces in the crowd. And being inspired by his "I Have a Dream" speech is not something only experienced by people of one skin color.

I don't bring this up to try to claim credit for what white people did in the past. I bring it up to illustrate that even in the darkest periods of this story there were significant numbers of people willing to join the struggle for equality. Those people exist today and WANT to be a part of making things better. But the people like Sharpton who once worked to get "Whites Only" signs torn down, have put up "Blacks Only" signs in their place. Its your skin color, not your content of character that gets you admission. You can still come inside however, if you are willing to be told how you should think or feel (i.e. "White Guilt") or are willing to be told how you should think (i.e. "check your privilege"). I just don't believe that Dr. King would have let the movement become so divisive.


And when it comes to the issues of today, I doubt he would pick and choose what aspects were allowed to be talked about or considered. Yes, talk about how to make interactions with law enforcement and the black community better, but he'd also talk about the level of victimization that goes on within those communities via gang activity and the like. Yes, talk about the number of black men in prison and inequities in sentencing, but he'd also talk about why so many are committing crimes in the first place.


I didn't live in the 60's so I don't know, maybe a lot of the movement and how it worked and its impact has been romanticized by the time it got to my generation. Maybe I'm even a little guilty of doing that here. I just don't feel like its as "open armed" as it had been and should be. Maybe some of you older Dawgs can provide some better and more accurate perspective?

Did his dream come true? I broke it down, best as I could, so we can comment on each of his wishes and dreams...

1-But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.


2- Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning.

There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights.

3-But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred.

4-We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. They have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk alone.

5- "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality.

6-We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities.

7-We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one.

8-We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their selfhood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating "For Whites Only".

9-We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote.


10-I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

11-I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

12-I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

13-I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.


14-I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.


And when this happens, when we allow freedom to ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

DevilDawg2847

When you attack Sharpton and the NAACP ect… it makes your entire argument weak and discredits some of the good points in your post.

It makes it look you trying to sell an agenda.

It seems to me we have made much progress since 1963 on many of these points.

1- Still true today.

2- I think we all have the same citizen rights today. We have the same rights in Court, Government, business, access to public facilities, and to vote.

3-There is much bitterness today.

4-Tough one, recent protests combined with looting and burning are not acting with dignity and discipline. Physical violence is still prevalent which has indeed lead to the distrust by White people.

5-Seems to me the response of the Police to protest and marches can no longer be described as unspeakable horrors.

6-Everybody is in the Hotels and Motels today.

7-Still the same with some glimmers of light. Many more Blacks in the Middle Class these days, living in the suburbs.

8-Fixed!

9-Fixed!

10-All men ARE created equal and most Americans believe it today.

11-Fixed! Go to a business, government, church or town meeting today and see who is represented there.

12-Mississippi is an all inclusive state today. It still has its share of problems too. White: 1,754,684 (59.1%); Black: 1,098,385 (37.0%);

13-Improved but not fixed.

14-Fixed! 'Bama is can no longer be described like that.

Quite the contrary, it provides suggestion that the stagnation of MLK's dream is perpetuted by all races. He is simply noting possible reasons for the division that perpetuate racism and inequality or the perception thereof in this country.

So your telling me that one of the main reasons of this divide is because of the Sharpton and the NAACP? And that’s great support for his argument? Please read his statements again, I can count 5 times when Devil is pretty much putting the blame on black people for this divide.

Let’s not talk about education opportunities for minorities.
Let’s not talk about jobs for minorities or the lack of them.
Let’s not talk about minorities with minorities names won’t even get a call back for jobs.
Let’s not talk about black males who never went to jail have a lower chance then getting a job then a white man who went to jail.
Let’s not talk about the laws that keep poor people poor.
Let’s not talk about current Repubs and Dems catering to big business and the super elite.
Let’s not talk about the segregation in schools?
Let's not talk about the Media keeping people divided

However
Let’s blame it on Sharpton and folks, because obviously its Sharpton’s and folks fault for this great divide.
Let’s also blame the minorities because you know it’s their fault.

To me that is ridiculous and that is the type of thinking that creates this divide.

Personally, I think that Sharpton does more to hurt Black people than he does to help them. He strikes me as an opportunist, who is concerned more about his own pocketbook, and his own power, than any ordinary Black person.

From where I sit, there are definitely problems, but to pretend that Black people are completely blameless is naive and foolish. Both sides can do a better job of working together to improve things for all people.

sharpton needs to go.

i rather have rappers like common represent us then sharpton. at least Common shows respect and honor those dead cops at the grammys. dude gets it.

I will never say or said that black people are blameless however to believe that white and minorities are on the same playing field is absurd. Its not in the same ball park, and for some its not even the same sport.

It's not strong argument to say a specific person and people who are like him are the problem, or a significant problem because where I sit there are 30 other things I would talk about before you start talking about specific people.

"I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."


No, his dream has not come true. Progress is being made, but there is still way too much divide among both races. Not until blacks and whites truly see each other as equals, will his dream come true. It will take decades more before his dream is even possible, unfortunately. Racism will NEVER completely dissolve, there will always be ignorant people out there who are too stupid to look past someone's skin color, but we're making progress.

To me it's ridiculous that some try to put words in the mouths of others. Let me state it in a way you might be able to comprehend: when you are not part of the solution, you ARE part of the problem. Easier???

Cjrae

I came up with 8 possible reasons to your specific statement for possible reasons for the divide which I believe are bigger and more important then a specific person and your reply is about my comprehension skills????

i see you haven't learned that they only like talking points with no substance around here. good luck.

Lurker, where did I ever say Sharpton was the one and only cause? Never. I am perfectly aware there are a myriad of reasons. However, the post was specifically regarding Sharpton. Therefore, being a logical thinking focused person, I responded to a specific comment. Don't read more into it than that.

Otherwise, I agree with your post.

Swish is bored and out to stir the pot today! :-)

Lurker has proven himself to be a thoughtful person, and I don't think there's ever been any indication that he has comprehension issues.

I can't say the same for you.

Yes, admittedly, I do think at a different level! Thanks for the compliment. I am accustomed to that from you.

Exhibit A.

The Weather Report just said we have to watch out for Black Guys on the side streets! What is this world coming too?

black ice. but same thing.

Language comprehension isn't his strong suit.

Oh! Nevermind.

Progress has been made but the MLK dream is next to impossible to obtain as long as racism lives on within our leaders.

PDR I never responded to your original question.


I think so much progress has been made that Dr. King would be proud, in his generation is was unheard of simple things that we take for granted. As FloridaFan has said each generation it is getting better, and I am optimistic in 50 years from now we won't be having this conversation as much.

My daughter is 18 months, in day care, her best friends are white girl and a mixed boy, the staff and all of the parents call them the three amigos because they literately do everything together. Every time I pick her up, my daughter will give them a hug or blow them kisses. In the class room, their are Mexican, Indian and Asian kids her age. We are all different economical status, different education levels and different races. I am saying this because this would never happened in Dr. Kings time and this shows how much progress we have made. I know if Dr. King could see this very small example he would know part of his dream has been accomplished.

I am not saying that we are perfect or we don't need more work, but I feel that we are making progress and as long as people are not stupid we will continue making strides.

Towards the Sharpton thing...

He isn't a good voice for anyone because he doesn't arouse much cohesion.
Whether that is his goal or not...he doesn't bring people together well enough because I think his words are too pointed yet blanketing. He makes excellent points, but hurts them with blanket unattainable action to correct.

Lack of cohesion is the biggest issue this country faces as a whole...ESPECIALLY in the minority sector.

Everyone has their own plans and agendas and there is very little look towards the greater good...only my good.

No, Dr kings Dream has not happened. As long as we look at people as members of a group instead of an individuals, we can never evolve to a colorless society.

The goal isn't a colorless society. The goal is to acknowledge the rich quality of everyone. A colorless society makes everyone white.

Lurker, sorry it took so long to get back to this thread.

I criticize or in your words "attack" Sharpton because for better or worse, accurate or not, he is THE name in the Civil Rights movement right now. The problem I have with the man is that he is nothing more than a hustler making money by exploiting the poor black community. Certainly his tactics and message run contrary to Dr. Kings. Dr. King had a method of being ALL inclusive. Which makes sense right? I mean, if you have a message that seeks equality for ALL, you would welcome EVERYONE that has the same goal. Sharpton by contrast is divisive and through his irresponsible race baiting has alienated a lot of people of ALL colors.

Now I will submit that its highly likely that a lot of Sharpton's position and import is due to him being propped up by the sensationalist media. He's fiery and provocative and THAT makes headlines. That's why it was quite encouraging that to see so many people denouncing he and Jackson in Ferguson.

As for the NAACP: are there specific ways that black people can ONLY be considered successful? Why is it that if you're white you can be successful in ANY manner, but if you're black, success only comes from an approved list? Isn't much of the complaint today that people still stereotype and pigeon hole blacks? How is not recognizing the historic achievements of blacks in the political sphere solely because they don't match your political agenda or party NOT self imposing stereotypes? Many of the black conservatives I've mentioned before have some truly remarkable life stories that while not easily copied, would stand to be good role models. But I can't believe you would think that its ok to try to sweep them under the rug for no other reason than they have a R instead of a D after their name.

Look, outside the politics, I'm sure the NAACP still does a TREMENDOUS amount of good work on the ground level. But when you start to get in to the politics of it all, I have to ask the same question I do about other social issues that get turned in to political issues: Is this something best resolved through politicians, or is it best resolved through everyday people acting like everyday people?

Gotta check out, I might be bale to add a little more later.

I don't think any black kid or young adult cares about what Sharpton or the NCAAP says. I think the only ones that do are white people.

Same goes with Jesse Jackson.