DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... PDR's olive branch/challenge to Christians

If you aren't familiar with The Jefferson Bible...

Thomas Jefferson once edited the New Testament to remove anything that didn't involve Christ directly, as well as any of his acts of miracle, nor any reference to him being the son of God.

So it's merely the story of a man trying to do good.

If you can't find a copy, break out your unabridged and read with the above parameters in mind.

Does anything in doing so change your perspective? Yes, no, why?

Take time to form opinions. Feel free to let the thread sink until you've thought it over and considered it.

Agina:

Does anything in doing so change your perspective? Yes, no, why?

Examine Christ by words and actions only.

That would be a nice story, but it would only be a story. You cannot remove Jesus divinity (or His humanity for that matter) from the New Testament without completely changing the entire meaning of the account.

It would be a story of a nice man, and no more. It might be an uplifting story, but that's all. It also would not be an accurate representation of the 1st person accounts of those who wrote the Gospels of Jesus Christ. It is changing what those men wrote, because the reader/editor wanted a very different outcome. I suppose that you can do that to a book .... but you cannot do so without changing it at its very core, and to the point where it is no longer the same book.

Although I'm an atheist I don't have a problem with most religions for the most part.

I will listen to those who support their faith with their bible.

I don't mind most religions because good or bad they provide some structure for society, by encouraging brotherhood and care for others.

There are some troubling and vague parts to the bible and I usually don't listen to anyone who tries to use it as a legal document.

Here's another challenge. If someone were to remove the condescension, arrogance, baiting and insulting nature from PDR's posts, would anything in doing so change our perspective?

examine Christ by his words and actions but do not include any words or actions that mention, lead to support, or are based on the fact he is the son of God?

That is sort of the entire thesis isnt it, the faith that Jesus was the son of God, God incarnate on this earth, part of the trilogy? interesting.

Obviously it changes the paradigm of Jesus, "reducing" him to a man ... but in the end.. I am not sure it changes his ultimate message, peace, love, forbearence,(sp), benevolence, the common welfare and understanding in yourself, for yourself and everyone else.

All of those are found within you, ( even Jesus made mention of that)so yes in effect it does change things some... the message remains the same, but the stimulus for doing these things becomes more inward than outward I guess, perhaps in retrpspect that is something Jesus wanted us to realize.... does that make any sense?

Matthew 7:6 in Jesus's Sermon on the Mount: "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Take away all stories of miracles and all that, and you still have a story of a man, WHO, if we ALL strive to be like, this planet would be a MUCH nicer place to live.

yes, I agree here.

I lend support to the Jeffersonian Bible because it is a nice gateway text for those who do not believe to understand the moral principles on which Christianity stands.

It can lead to faith through the rest of the text left out or it can possibly lead to a person merely leading their life in a better way for humanity on Earth or it can lead to some becoming more understanding and accepting of their Christian brethren. In any of these fashions, I believe that it does good, so I do not understand those that try to squash it.

The path is different for each person, I would not want to be the one that judges which path is the "only" one to take when many of them lead to the same destination.

Just my thoughts.

Agina?

A lesser known disciple, he actually took the picture at the last supper so he was not in the shot.

I thought that was the guy holding the platter.



I know Comicus was his given name, but I thought he was renamed by Jesus, much like St. Peter.

No, that's the waiter.

interesting story... Jesus didnt like him much and stiffed him on the tip.

when asked about it Jesus said '' there will be no tip , but on your death bed you will achieve total conciousness" it ended up being left out of the bible but was used in a modern movie.

Actually PDR, it changes nothing about my perspective.

I've always considered the actions of the way Christ lived his life as the most important part of the Bible and the type of people we should all strive to be.

Since I'm not a minister and can't perform miracles, what you described is exactly why the things you have pointed out are my main focus.

It's why I have so much trouble supporting a certain political mind set. It's why I see so many that profess Christianity as being so far from it.

I believe Christ was sent as an example for mankind to try to follow. While we all sin, his life is there for us to draw from.

Many don't see this the way I do. I don't belittle anyone for their beliefs or lack there of. I don't believe that's a productive or respectful way to treat anyone. I believe it only puts up walls that makes it much harder to have any real or productive discussion.

That may be why I expected this thread to be a little different according to the thread title. I guess I'll have to wait a little longer to find out if the olive branch part of the title is sincere or not.

JMHO

Well said. Also, whether it be political, religious, or sports, I do prefer people who can show each other respect in debate.


Matthew12:25
Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.

:-)

Thomas Jefferson evidently didn't read the entire Bible before he did such a foolish thing ...


REVELATION 22:18-19 Jesus said "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Just Sayin'

Considering the title, I assume the real purpose of this thread is to prove that Christians are close-minded, don't read anything that doesn't agree with their beliefs, and refuse to think critically about their religion. Judging from the responses posted so far, I'd say PDR has made his true, albeit disingenuous, point. Nevertheless, I'll respond to this thread seriously in the hope that this "discussion" might amount to more than mere Christian sniping.

I have read the Jefferson Bible, so I am qualified to answer the question.

"Does anything in doing so change your perspective?"

Yes. The story becomes uninteresting and pointless. Thomas Jefferson possessed little narrative taste. As for the re-examination of Christ, he is rendered pedantic, innocuous, and ignorable. But most problematic of all, he is rendered incoherent, as is the entire text itself, and in some places, scenes of the utmost seriousness become comedic. For example, in the standard text, the conflict between Jesus and the moral authorities of his time depended on his claim to be God. From a purely dramatic perspective, this is what makes the Gospels so interesting. Once this is removed, the story is barely readable.

Furthermore, the motivation of the moral authorities in seeking his death becomes incoherent. Yes, they are concerned he is "stirring up the people," and the Jefferson edition would lead one to believe that Jesus died for this fact alone. But this brings us to the first major incoherency in Jefferson's bible. Jesus is supposed to be nothing more than a moral sage and prophet of God, and based on his words and actions in that edition alone, there is no good reason to suppose he could be responsible for a rebellion so threatening that it would necessitate his death. The matter becomes more clear after Jesus is arrested and questioned as to whether or not he claims to be the Son of God.

Now, because Jefferson has cut out all of the previous text where Jesus does this very thing, the question doesn't make much sense. Instead, we get the impression that all of this Son of God business is projected onto Jesus by these moral authorities, (for what reason is anyone's guess), and when they finally get to confront him about it, Jesus's response is basically "That's what you think." I actually laughed out loud when reading this, not because it is a distortion of the text, but because the whole scene is legitimately funny. The problem is, I doubt humor is what Jefferson was going for. He states that he is trying to save Christianity from the corruption of metaphysics and supernaturalism, but the effect is trivialization and comedy.

I have more I could say about this, but I'll give others a chance to respond. But let's do one more incoherency before I stop. Despite the fact that Jefferson has removed the taint of supernaturalism from the character of Jesus, his text is still rife with supernaturalism. Look at how many times God is attributed personhood in this edition. Look at the references to heaven, hell, and the future resurrection of the dead, all of which Jesus confirms in his supposedly updated and enlightened words. What I can't figure out is, if Jefferson is okay with the personhood of God and the supernaturalism entailed in his edition, then is it really such a leap to attribute divinity to Jesus? In terms of the classic atheist argument, it's like Jefferson is saying he believes in the Spaghetti Monster, but he doesn't believe the Spaghetti Monster can fly.

So, in conclusion, my perspective has changed. After reading Jefferson's edition, I now appreciate the standard biblical narrative even more.

To share the information on who Jesus was without talking of His miracles is like telling us about MLK without mentioning or understanding that he was a Black Man. You are left with only a misunderstanding of who the man was. An incomplete description, a half truth.

Jesus was God's attempt to communicate with us in a way we could understand. Jesus was God made flesh.

He forgot the "V."

That was a really good post, Pit.

The Bible without Jesus is like a car without gas it won't get you anywhere ...

HUH?

What's an Agvina

I am so happy now that PDR has become a Christian.

Pastor Marc, I really don't want to get into a religious debate but I have a serious question about the verse you quoted here; Jesus referred to the bible in REVELATION 22:18-19?

If so you are telling me that the bible was compiled with his knowledge while he was living? Because I've always thought the Bible was written some 100+ years AD? Also, I don't think I've ever read this verse before because I just can't get over how violently he (Jesus) says God will punish you for doing it... To me this sounds much more oriented around the time of the inquisition and Catholic rewrite of everything.

I'm not Christian, but I picture Jesus as a good hearted never hurt anyone type and definitely not threatening. I picture him as a very chilled out guy that would give his all to take away the pain/suffering of others (even strangers) So somehow I just can't see him shaking his fist and making heavy handed threats.

Most of the new testament was written my the Apostle Paul IIRC, and Revelations was written by the Apostle John. Others by Mark, Luke and Mathew which are their accounts of their time with Jesus.

it is believed that the holy Spirit guided their writings, particularly the areas where Jesus was alone, yet we have accounts of his conversations with God and such.

The New Testament was put together into one book some 400 years after Jesus from the writings of the Apostles and others that had been passed down and gathered over the centuries.

Think Jesus was sweet all the time? Read...

Mathew 21:12
12And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."…

IMO too many people make God in their own image instead of reading who He truly is.

I believe what the Bible says I speak what it says and God also speaks to us His Words were recorded by man with the Guidance of the Lord thru the Holy Spirit ...

2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.(NKJV)

There wouldn't be anything left. The post would cease to exist.

Read it while I was in high school... Thought it was good but didn't change my beliefs much... Of course there are w lot of things that I might not agree with some of mainstream Christians... Good read thiugh

The money changers story is about the only time Jesus gets revved up though... think about it. Then he's going to make a threat like Pastor Marc quoted???? Doesn't mesh, but to me none of it does.

jc

Anyone ever read the Book of Enoch?

It was one that didn't make the cut into the Bible.

Very intriguing.

Are you familiar with the Bible at all? The book of Revelation details the events of the judgement of the world at the end of the world. It was given to the apostle John by a vision. This is long after Jesus has been crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended to heaven.

You have to remember, when considering God, you have to consider the 'justice' as well as the 'mercy'.

The money changers event is also not the only time Jesus got 'revved up'. You also have to consider the times he was in hot debate with scribes and pharisees, when he was rebuking scribes, pharisees and lawyers calling them hypocrites and vipers. These things happened often.

He also cursed a Fig tree. Either way, he always seemed pretty laid back except when authority figures seemed to step out of line.

He got upset when those who were supposed to be messengers of His Father's message instead used their roles and status for their own personal gain, rather than to help people. It wasn't authority that upset Him, in fact, he said to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. It was when those who were supposed to act in accordance with God's Word used their positions for their own edification, and at the expense of those who they should have actually been serving instead. The Pharisees had it backwards, having the people serving them, instead of serving the people, and being more concerned about their own human rules than the laws of God.

I have recently heard this quote from CS Lewis. (From Mere Chrsitianity)

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

I come back to this thread everyday to read a response from PDR. Still waiting.

I'm surprised by how many people, including Christians, think Jesus was mostly a "chill dude" and that his moral teachings define him most. I suppose on a selective reading that is seeking a Jesus that fits a contemporary worldview, that makes practical sense, but it's not an accurate understanding of who Jesus was and what he actually said. Jesus was a radical and his message was apocalyptic and exclusionary. How anyone can read his parables and private teachings and think Jesus was just all about love and accepting everybody is beyond me.

Well, actually it's not. Most Christians don't read the Bible, and Catholicism is the worst offender when it comes to this kind of selective understanding of Jesus.

Brace yourself bro.

Hie message was about love though. This is the story of the love of God for His creation, that God was willing to sacrifice His Son, to turn His back on His Son as He hung on the cross, and allow Him to suffer in agony and humiliation for us.

Jesus is God, and God hates sin, yet He still loves the sinner. This was obvious throughout the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. The one thing that Jesus did despise more than anything else, though, was hypocrisy among those who were supposed to care for His flock on earth. The religious leaders who used their station for their own edification, to be "above" the rest of the people, and for their own material gain, were a frequent target for Jesus. Why? Read the life story of Jesus Christ. He was the most, yet He became the least. He served others, despite being God in human form. He hated the Hypocrites who pretended to be Godly, yet violated His basic precepts for life.

Jesus is love, yet He is also a message to those who would follow Him that they are to serve others, not to make others serve them.

The whole point of Jesus' message is that we cannot "do" anything to gain salvation, except to admit that we cannot do it on our own, and that we need God's help. (and His grace)

I think that Jesus will have a lot to say about several organized religions when He returns. Jesus said that not all who call out to Him saying "Lord! Lord!" will be saved, In fact, some Jesus will answer by saying that He never knew them. This is because people think that "almost" doing as Jesus said will be enough, or that doing only what we agree with will be enough. If we believe in God, and that Jesus is God ...... in other words, if we are Christians, then we should follow that which God (Jesus) said for us to do. That means that we follow God's Bible. The New testament is clear as to how a Christian is to act, and what they must do to be saved. We are to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior, repent and ask God for the forgiveness of our sins, that they be washed away with the blood of Jesus, and "take up our crosses and follow Jesus". This means that we try to live a life according to what Jesus taught us. We will never be prefect, because we are sinful beings born into a sinful world, but we can repent of our sins when we fail, and expect to be forgiven if we do as Jesus instructed.

God is about love, but He is also about perfect justice. He took the penalty for all who believe in Him, and follow Him. The penalty for sin has to be paid. God made sure it was paid, even if He had to pay it Himself.

I agree with you that most Christians never read the Bible. I know that I have never read entire huge portions of the Bible. I am working my way through now. I started before the new year, and I am up to Leviticus. It is a lot of work to get through some of it, the ceremonial passages especially. I have a plan to read the entire Bible, and to do so in a way that I do my best to understand the entirety of the Bible. Everything in the Bible fits together. Everything has a purpose. I have 2 study Bibles, with all of the notes and references, and they are very helpful in putting the whole picture together. I think that is a problem many people have with the Bible, that they run into areas that they simply cannot follow, because they don't have the point of reference to do so. They give up, and just assume that they know what the Bible says. I agree with you that this is very dangerous. We have it easy today, and yet also very difficult. We are not persecuted like the early Christians were. We are not in fear for our lives because we are Christians. However, we face temptations unheard of in the time of Jesus. Sin is so easy today. In many ways, it is easier to sin than to avoid sin. However, we cannot just accept that we should live in a pattern of sin. God is willing to forgive us if we unintentionally sin. However, if we expect Him to forgive us when we basically thumb our noses at Him, while asking for His forgiveness, well that is exactly what Jesus warned against. Many will cry out "Lord! Lord!", and Jesus will respond that He never knew them. They never gave themselves to Christ, except as lip service. That is not what God wants. He wants to love us, and for us to love Him. That means that we do as our creator says to do. He is willing to forgive us accidental sins, but a pattern of willful disobedience is a different story.

But you were saying He was a softy and I proved you completely wrong! Wise up or get fryin'.