DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Did Dr. King's Dream Happen?

I agree, I have never once heard their names brought up in any conversations with my friends, there are so many more important things to talk about

Yet thousands of people show up for his protests and marches.

Have you ever seen the video of Jesse Jackson in Ferguson? Where he is told to go home because "we don't want you here"?

They are not as relevant(or well liked) as you think.

No, but I have seen him leading some of the marches.

You saw a member of the press on TV? Wow.

"Thousands of people" Ok and? Ferguson has about 21k residents. Even if 1k people came, which I doubt, that's still less than 5% of the population. Not that many people comparative to everything.

As a Hispanic, I really can't talk for the black community. While Latin@s and AA communities share a lot of culture, we're still different. However, I can say discussing civil rights with my black friends (As cringe worthy as using a "black friend" card is) we've never discussed the NCAAP, Jesse Jackson, or Sharpton in any serious tone, except to point out their flaws and corruption. While their parents and that generation remember Jesse Jackson being the next civil rights leader after King was assassinated. My generation, and the one before it, doesn't. We see them as false prophets.

I had along discussion with My Pops about those two back in the '70's. I was a teenager then, and was forming opinions of my own about the world around me, but was still at that age when a Father's opinion held some weight/influence. I asked him what he thought about those two. Instead of giving me his take, he asked me what I thought. That was HUGE. Dude was discussing socipolitical issues with me like I was his equal or something!

After hemming and hawing a bit ("this trait is good; this trait is bad... yadayadayada), I finally wrapped it up. When I asked him his opinion, here's what he said:

"Dr King stood tall, and wore a coat with real long tails. Those two got famous by riding on that coat- but they'll never be able to fill it."

This assessment came from someone their own age. I don't think it was a generational thing, so much as it was a gullibility thing. After Dr. King's death, The People felt leaderless, and were willing to glom onto pretty much ANYONE who could fill the vacuum. Enter Tweddle Dum and Tweedle Stoop.

The serious Black intellectuals left the front lines to find their places in academia, conventional politics, etc. The public void was filled by these attention-seeking carnival barkers. What galls me the most is how they took Dr. King's mission, and monetized its caricature to make a lifelong career for themselves.

I still believe that Dr. King was never in it for fame, riches, or to see himself on TV. He truly believed in social justice- which is why he couldn't be bought off, shut up or compromised. His mission went far beyond the boundaries of race, too- which lent extra gravitas to his message. He was just as much a champion of the poor rural White citizen as he was the disenfranchised urban Black. He saw a rigged system, and spoke about it under many different frameworks. It's why he was viewed as so 'dangerous' by the Establishment. In essence, he was the most influential social gadfly of his time- and an unimpeachable source for massive social change across many conventional fault lines. He was much, much more than simply a "Black Leader."

It's why his name is still relevant almost 60 years after his death... and those two are still chasing legitimacy while they are still alive.

Gold coins won't ever be substituted with slugs... unless you're dealing with a fool who doesn't know the difference. Most of The People I know haven't been fooled.


.02

The guy was about to tackle the poverty problem. I think that's what pains me the most about his death, honestly.

One could make an argument that his death was a result of that.

Advocates of socialism with a large following tend to meet their end with a bullet to the head (or nailed to a cross).

I've seen David Duke leading marches.

What's your point?

The point is that a guy like Sharpton has created a business out of the racial situation in this country. That is his business. His presence, especially when he is leading such protests, diminishes the messages those protests want to convey. (exactly the same way David Duke's presence would diminish a protest led by him)

I don't disagree with that at all.

But this isn't the first time you've made it out to sound like a major problem in the black community is their willingness to listen to or follow men like Sharpton or Jackson.

Others say something similar when they make it sound like the Muslim community is at fault because they don't denounce people who murder others with every other breath.

The fact that people walk behind two verbally persuasive demagogues isn't the responsibility of black people or those who oppose a justice system that is beyond a shadow of a doubt tilted against the poor.

Very true. Tonight I went to see Kathleen Cleaver speak at OSU. For those of you who don't know, Kathleen was a BPP member and the first woman in their voting body. She was married to Eldridge Cleaver who wrote "Soul on Ice". She could have easily been some sort of a leader in the post-MLK landscape, but with everything going on she decided to go to academia/business becoming both a lawyer and a professor. She's just one example, and not an out of the ordinary person.

It also helps that the way COINTELPRO was operated that other Civil Rights Leaders who could have picked up where MLK left, had their names disgraced and ruined, some even killed. Kwame Ture was already a great Civil Rights leader during MLK's life (Often influencing MLK), but he ended up leaving the country and having a lot of fights with the inclusiveness of white people into the black power movement. I agree with you that JJ and Sharpton were just there. They weren't wanted or deserved, they were just needed.

Would you at least say that a big problem FOR the black community is the APPEARANCE that they are willing to listen and follow Sharpton and Jackson? I mean right now these guys are THE names that first come to mind for everyone on any issue related to race. Sharpton has done very well for himself (though that probably has more to do with the $4 million in taxes he pocketed instead of paying ). But it doesn't help when people like the President add legitimacy to people like Sharpton by inviting him to the White House to provide counsel.

IMO what's missing in this discussion at large are two things:

1) better definition of what the relevant issues actually are. Is an issue really about a person's skin color? Or is it really about the poor? I don't believe they are necessarily one and the same. And once you define the problems, you have to look at them in a comprehensive manner. Frankly it's not enough to just throw out the claim that the justice system is skewed and to only look at the end result (sentencing, levels of incarceration) for the root of the problem. The sad truth is that the overwhelming majority of people incarcerated ARE guilty of whatever it is they were charged with. It's just as relevant to seek the reasons as to why people CHOOSE to commit a crime. Why are there so many repeat offenders? And equally as relevant is to look at the laws themselves. Do certain things NEED to be illegal? Can/should certain offenses be decriminalized? Are the application of said laws fair? Do we need to revisit sentencing structures? I for one believe that there needs to be a comprehensive overall and re-classification of certain felonies to misdemeanors, etc.

2)I think we are also missing that individual who reflects TODAY's issues and people. Who is the Frederick Douglas, Booker T. Washington, Grandma Moses, Dr. King, Rosa Parks of THIS generation?

It's this persona that was missing in Ferguson. Peel away the rioters and the people who flooded the area who don't live there... I'm talking about the average Ferguson resident that was lost in all of that? Who here can state definitively what their protest was about? We're told that Ferguson is 70% black but 50 out of 53 (now 52) cops are white and that is supposed to be proof of systemic bias.... but is it? Were they protesting the way their local police conducted themselves on a daily basis? Or were they protesting the incident? Two very different things. What happens if the Justice Department comes back and says that they did not find any evidence of racial bias within that department? Who would be more surprised... the people who live there or the people who don't?

FOr all I know they may come back and end up taking over the Ferguson PD because they do find evidence of wrongdoing. We won't know until the investigation is concluded.

But like I mentioned earlier in the thread, there is a feeling of inclusiveness that is missing within the equal rights/civil rights realm these days. Civil rights isn't about skin color. It's about an individual being treated just as fair and provided the same opportunity as another individual.

Frankly I'd rather see Clem or Lurker being invited to the White House for their advise and point of view than the people that have been invited. You guys have a much more balanced approach to the subject than the likes of Jesse and Al. Its discussions like here where actual progress can and is made.

CHS and Clem, it looks like you guys have more knowledge than I in this area. Any thoughts as to WHY there was, I guess a migration (for lack of a better term??) of these personalities in to those other areas instead of taking up MLK's mantle? Was it maybe the next logical step in the movement, to walk it out (pun intended) of the streets and in to education and politics, two realms where you could expect to enact effective and meaningful social/legal change?

Or was MLK's assassination that significant that it effectively halted all the momentum they had experienced to that point? Without such a unifying figure, did they just kind of dissolve?

It's hard for me to speak on such things. I'm not too knowledgeable about the non-violence movements post-King or even pre-King. I've always thought that non-violence movements, to be effective, had to depend on the consciousness of the class in power. This makes in non-effective in many cases. So, I never really read up on it, instead focusing my thoughts on people like Kwame Ture, Malcolm X, the BPP and various revolutions across the globe.

That said, I think two key points where the Civil Rights movement failed, are two things that we're talking about today. Police brutality and income inequality defined by race. While voting rights, desegregation and other major problems were handled during MLK's life time or just right after, these two were next on his agenda. The problem was, no one had the ethos of MLK to reach to the broader audience. I know Ralph David Abernathy took over for the SCLC, but he wasn't King, so their campaigns failed. Honestly, I'm not sure MLK could end police brutality and income inequality. Those are just two interconnected players in institutionalized racism.

I think the idea to head towards academia, was because that is where these leaders came from. The Black Panther Party was started at a college, the SNCC were a bunch of college kids and CORE was founded by college kids. It was just natural for them to return to their roots IMO. I think many were also disillusioned by the murder of MLKL. I think MLK was their main hope, because a lot of the leaders in the Civil Rights movements weren't exactly angels and were hard to really build trust for white allies. Not to mention, police brutality and income disparity are both very hard to see problems. You don't see it unless you become aware of it. That's part of the problem with fighting against these things today. As far as leaders in today's movements? It's still a young movement, made up of young people. A leader will emerge sooner or later.

I hope Clem can add some of his insight. I wasn't alive for a lot of this and don't have any real first hand insight.

Would you say that a big problem for the white community is the appearance that they listen to and follow Rush Limbaugh?

I don't get that.

Whites can shake of Rush Limbaugh likes it's nothing. But blacks gotta jump through hoops to prove we don't like sharpton?

I just don’t understand how a community can be judged based on appearance. The assumption is that we all listen and follow Sharpton/Jackson blindly because we are black. I have never in my entire life had a meaningful discussion regarding Sharpton or Jackson. Ever. The only time I discuss Sharpton is to make jokes on how he looks crazy because he lost all that weight. I think it’s you, that thinks that black community are listening and following them. So now my assumption is that you don’t talk to many black people nor have friends where you can openly ask these questions.(I am not meaning that as a diss) Like CHS said the younger generation does not hold him to the high esteem that people think we do. Jackson/Sharpton might have been important in the civil rights movement but that doesn't mean anything now. The younger generation is 1-2 generations removed from era and have absolutely no clue what their significance is. (You are not taught that in school). Let’s say you uncle goes in detail to tell you how amazing the band “The Beatles” are and how Metallica is not as good as them , you sit down and listen to “The Beatles “ and you will probably say ”wtf is this crap,” Why? In your uncle’s time they were the biggest and best thing, you are in a different generation and music has evolved from the 60s which gives you a different take on it. You will never understand the significance or know how ground breaking they were because you didn't live in that era.

The equal rights movement was very important to everyone for the progress of America, because of the civil rights movement we have accomplished many things that we take for granted.(sitting down to eat at a restaurant together). I am not sure if there will be another black leader that can emerge because honestly people of color are in different types of economical classifications and from that perspective “we’ve made it”. We do not have a common goal, so how can a community unite or why would we unite? I own 2 homes, own a luxury car had multiple opportunities to advance myself, I cannot relate to my older brother who lived his entire life on Kinsman when there were 0 opportunities to advance himself, except for crime and violence. We both cannot relate to our cousin who was raised in Solon and does not associate or want to associate with anyone of color. We are all different and unless something affects every black person there will not be a need for a leader. Me personally, I am not going to follow anyone that doesn’t align with my own morals and outlook. I will add I never had a discussion with my friends of needing a black leader, we talk about what we can do to help the local community. What I can/should do to make a difference.

I agree that if you do the crime, you do the time, everything that you do is your own personal choice so if you do something illegal it’s your fault. On that some point there are things that are stacked against people in poverty, you are born in to the red. You are raised in system where it’s taught that you need to hustle in order to survive? My question is why is that? There is substantial data that explains why people are in poverty and specifically why people of color are in poverty but it seems that people are not willing to listen to the rational data and refute, ignore, or not talk about it. After they refute, ignore the data they want to blame them like it’s their fault that they are in poverty. I have posted a few articles about 5 separated times and not one person ever acknowledged them. My questions I why? Is data not valid anymore? How can a person pull statics that support their argument but then ignore statics show the reasons why their statics are true.

Do you know what solves poverty? Jobs. That is the main reason why the Ferguson things were so bad, they had no jobs, everyone was in poverty and couldn’t afford to simple things. If a man can afford to buy something why would he steal it?


ferguson's real problem is poverty jobs solve most of it

Thank you. You expressed my thoughts better than I would have.

There are theories which claim Hoover put in the hit on him for this very reason; I'm not too sure I buy that theory.

PDR- What does Limbaugh have to do with this topic?

Swish- I'm not suggesting anyone has to "prove" anything. I know that there are black people that don't subscribe to what Sharpton is preaching. But objectively speaking, the perception for many people is that he does speak for the "black community". It would be nice if he could just be casually dismissed, but he is given credibility through the support of other prominent blacks (Obama, etc). This is a HUGE problem for progress in this area on three fronts:

1) His divisiveness scares a lot of people away who would actually want to help become a part of the solution
2) When he gets involved, he inflames a situation to a point where the last concern addressed is the original one
3) Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but he and people like him have got to be a pretty big obstacle to the progress that needs to be made?

I'm not saying every over generalization needs to be addressed or countered. But there are some things that when they get big enough that do need addressed. For example, lately its gotten quite fashionable to hate on law enforcement. When people say that it has become over militarized, is systemically racist, and is nothing more than a bunch of white guys who were bullied/bullies in high school on power trips who's sole purpose is to trample on every Right possible... No one is going to be satisfied if I just say "well, that's not me" or "Not every cop is like that".

Lurker- You've made some very good points and provided some very valuable insight. Before I go in to it, let me be clear, just because I'm asking about appearances and perceptions, please don't take that to mean that these are my personally held views and experiences. When talking about the broader context of the issue I'm (trying) to come at it from a more objective approach. I'll try to do a better job of drawing these distinctions.


I've got a lot more I'd like to touch on but I'll need to sit down later and hammer it out.

Ok, Let's give it a shot.

I think it’s you, that thinks that black community are listening and following them. So now my assumption is that you don’t talk to many black people nor have friends where you can openly ask these questions.(I am not meaning that as a diss)

You're right in that I don't often find myself in a position to discuss this all that often. My immediate group of friends are who they are and outside that the bulk of my interaction with people occurs while on patrol. This isn't to say I haven't had conversations about the likes of Rev Al. I have to preface this by saying that by and large our department has a pretty good relationship with our community. Even in spite of the headlining incidents (Brown, Garner), it isn't uncommon to be approached by citizens of all races and cultures, and be thanked, wished well, or even approached to tell us that not everyone thinks that way. Some are more eloquent then others... I once was approached by a black gentleman who appeared uncomfortable, and he said "I just wanted to tell you that you guys do a pretty good job around here. You're not like those other cops going around killing people". An over simplification of the issues I think, but I really appreciated his intent. I only bring up his race because the national narrative is that law enforcement and the black community are at complete odds. This man was clearly uncomfortable I think not knowing how I'd receive him, but he felt compelled to push through all that and say what he needed to say. Its situations like those where people are expressing their support that Al gets mentioned and they make it abundantly clear he doesn't reflect their values. But that's a conversation I've only had with older black people.. like 45 and older. I can't recall a time that I've had that conversation with anyone in the younger generation.

THIS:
The equal rights movement was very important to everyone for the progress of America, because of the civil rights movement we have accomplished many things that we take for granted.(sitting down to eat at a restaurant together). I am not sure if there will be another black leader that can emerge because honestly people of color are in different types of economical classifications and from that perspective “we’ve made it”. We do not have a common goal, so how can a community unite or why would we unite?

AND THIS:
We are all different and unless something affects every black person there will not be a need for a leader. Me personally, I am not going to follow anyone that doesn’t align with my own morals and outlook. I will add I never had a discussion with my friends of needing a black leader, we talk about what we can do to help the local community. What I can/should do to make a difference.

This is honestly some of the most insightful remarks I've come across probably anywhere and honestly these are the ideas the conversation ought to be centered on vs. the overall narrative of black community vs. (fill in the blank). Something has been bugging me for awhile about the term "black community" and I think you have been able to lay it out for me. Too often "black community" is used to indicate that what follows is the perspective of ALL black people (or conversely used to describe ALL black people). Like you said, there is no common goal... so how can anyone rightly claim the perspective of ALL black people? The more people someone tries to claim under "community", the more it loses its meaning. The majority of problems are local, and so should the solutions be.

BTW, I'm not surprised to hear you say that you and your friends don't ever discuss needing a leader. Why would you when that's exactly the role you and your friends fill when trying to improve things.

This is why I think things like appearance and perspective shouldn't always be ignored, no matter how false. Based on my experiences and upbringing I KNOW that all black people aren't in lock step behind Sharpton or anyone else for that matter. But it is very difficult at times to get to a point where you can come to that common point. I mean, look at the number of threads that have been about race over the last several months. It's gotten intense and personal at times. But also look how much BS and 'appearance' and 'perspective' from all angles that had to be sorted through before we could get to this point? And this is in a forum where most posters come in to it with the intention of being open minded and trying to come to a common understanding.

Now I just wish I knew what to do about the media in this country. The sensationalism before journalism philosophy that they take at large has created this constant "War of the Worlds" environment where the Martians are anyone who isn't me.

I appreciate the thoughtful responses