DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... PDR's olive branch/challenge to Christians

I would be willing to bet that you dodge your fair share of rotten tomatoes too.

I am still in the balcony and I am still praying for you buddy

[quote]I make a pretty good living off of it. /quote]

I'm curious to know what that is.

"I'm very happy and satisfied to admit God is in your mind, but I would ask for you to respect me enough to not make statements about my beliefs."

I didn't say anything about beliefs Rock.

This might be a little existential for your tastes, but simply put, if you think about god, that's in your mind. That's all. Nothing about beliefs.

Yet you quickly gave into that impulse after this post. And I'm glad you did. I love the PDR-arch exchanges. Priceless.

my problem with bible thumpers/republicans(yes, one in the same) is this:

If jesus was born a few years ago, he'd be labeled as a fraud, a socialist, commie, and lack true christians values.

Unfortunately, you might be right that many, many would do just that.

I think I understand you better now. It really wasn't an inability to grasp existentialism it was more of a misperception of a slightly vague statement.

I understand what you're saying now, but I read it as, "even an atheist must admit God exists" which led to my response.

As far as God being in my mind I still feel a need to make it clear that God is not in my brain unless others are speaking of His existence.

If you meant God is in "our" brains as humans on this Earth I would agree with you 100%.

It would be quite interesting as the Press interviewed Jesus and asked Him his views on Abortion and Homosexuality.

After that, the liberal press would produce a tape of Jesus saying he hates Blacks by Andrea Mitchell and Brian Williams would tell of how he crashed in a helicopter while observing the crowds. They would say He is the product of a broken home and raised by a single mother.

They would be happy that He is thin and doesn't smoke. There would be rumors of Bullying with money changers as reluctant witnesses.

If you ever have the chance to go to the National Cathedral in Washington DC, you will see the entire wall behind the altar is a painting of the Jesus you will all see when we next see him. It is not the Crucified Jesus, it is not the tortured Jesus with head held low, it is the Risen Christ!
He looks down upon you with judgement in his eyes and a serious expression on his face. His eyes follow you to every point in the Cathedral! It is very impressive.

If he was born a few years ago he'd be 6 or 7 years old at the most as I understand the meaning of the word 'few'.

I'll give a more serious response when I get home from work.

If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be--a Christian.

Mark Twain

I find it odd how people believe that some drunk Catholic painter knew what Jesus looked like.



Actually, having been a carpenter before any type of equipment was developed, it would have been a very hard and laborious task. It would take a strong man with muscles to do such work.

I highly question that Michael Angelo or the paintings of some weak looking thin man are anywhere close to a true depiction of what Christ actually looked like.

so Jesus actually mentions homosexuality, or do you guys just make that up?

You judge the artist harshly. Interesting. I don't know him.

Do you think Jesus was a clean slate when He arrived in the World? He was a Jew. An Old Testament Jew. He followed the laws of Moses. He said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Did he mention Homosexuality directly? Go look for it yourself and let me know.

This is in part where I was planning to go with all of this.

If you strip away the fairy tale parts about magic and resurrection, you're looking at a nonjudgmental socialist who denounced amassing wealth.

And for the poster who was curious as to what Jesus would say to interviewers about abortion and homosexuality... probably nothing negative.

His sidekick was a prostitute.

He was harsh with moralists, not sinners.

He is correct, Jesus is Jewish.

herein you have prejudiced your original thesis.... a doctor doesn't heal the healthy only the sick Jesus himself alluded that he did not come here for the righteous but for the sinners.

But your original constraint was to strip away anything that remotely touched on miracles, God etc... so the reason he was with the sinners can not be used in the discussion, that makes that discussion and calling sinners and his relationship with them, into the conversation.. moot.

s for abortion etc.... I would suggest he would non judgmental of anyone persons personal actions and decisions, Judge not lest ye be judged. Also to that end he would not be concerned with the politics of anyone and would dispute any attempts to pigeonhole him into one ideology over another.... yes he would be for sharing of food, housing clothing etc but he would also favor giving to Caesar what belongs to Caesar

He gave us two commandments... love God ( which is also a moot point here) and love your neighbors as you love yourself.

I contend that message would not change.

Man's understanding of GOD is limited by man's limited understanding, Man created GOD in the image that was most acceptable to man.

I don't believe that Jesus directly mentions homosexuality. He does say that Marriage is a union of one man to one woman, for life. Paul does mention homosexuality, and continues the Old Testament opinion that it is an abomination to God.

Homosexuality is mentioned in the New Testament several times.

1 Timothy 1:10: the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

1 Corinthians 6:9: Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Romans 1:26–27: For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Now again, this does not mean that homosexuality is somehow a "worse" sin than any other sins. That is not what God judges us on. When we ask Jesus to become our personal Savior, and repent of our sins, we are expected to turn away from those patterns of sin that have previously ruled our lives. Man is a sinful being, and we will always sin. Christians do not somehow become perfect simply because we become Christians, other than when God looks at us at judgment, He sees the perfection of His Son, Jesus Christ, instead of our sins.

Now, I do not believe that God wants us to profess to be Christians, and still go out to the bars several times/week, picking up women for sex, and so on, as a man may have done before he committed himself to Jesus Christ. Will we slip up? Absolutely. Will we sin? Without any doubt whatsoever. However, it is my belief that God does not want us to be out reveling in sin, and living life in a pattern of sin. If we make a mistake, then that is a mistake. If we disregard what God expects of us, that is rebellion. I think that is the difference.

Since you brought it up, the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. Does that mean that being a homosexual is a sin? No. Does it mean that having homosexual sex is a sin? Yes. That is what the Bible says. It is the same as enslavers, liars, sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, perjurers, and other sins mentioned as such in the New Testament. Is sin immediately a death sentence for a Christian? Not if they repent of their sins. Being a Christian is not a license to sin. We all sin, and while we should try not to, it is inevitable, as imperfect beings, that all Christians will sin. It is my belief that it is not a sin that is problematic for a Christian, but rather a pattern of sin, where they disregard the teachings of the Bible, the urgings of the Holy Spirit, and their own consciences.

Which begs the question -

Was Christ a noble person whose myth was elevated or exaggerated to include claims of deity, or was he an insane person? Or entirely fictional?

None of the above. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, one third of the Holy Trinity that is God, who came to earth to pay the penalty for our sins, and to redeem mankind.

I do like it how you only put in options that you would agree with.

which further begs,,, how can the term Deity be used to describe the mental state of a person when the term Deity is forbidden to be used to describe the person himself within the discussion?

or you cant use the fact that a person attests to being a GOD as being insane when you have taken those actions which to some prove his claims out of the equation.

that argument commits a fallacy,, ignoring the precedent.

In this case the precedent being certain actions of Jesus, i.e. rising from the dead, prove to some he is a deity.

Leviticus 20:13
13“ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

"The bible says one man should not lay with another.

But I don't think the good Lord would send a man like you to Hades"

Carl Childers

"The bible says one man should not lay with another.

But I bet you the good Lord wouldn't send no one like you to Hades"

Karl Childers

j/c

Any "considered thesis" here yet?

sorry but i will never understand this old/new testament stuff.

Somebody switching up the rules just because their son died doesn't make any sense. That means God isn't perfect.

The rules weren't switched.m they were FULFILLED in Jesus because we couldn't fulfill them. That's why the Bible says we are 'the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus'.

Like autism said, God looks at those of us who've asked Jesus into our heart and sees his Son's perfect life, not our imperfect life.

That's also why we say he is the sacrifice for all our sins.

Allow me to try and explain, as best I can.

In the Old Testament, there was once a sin free earth, and its inhabitants were Adam and Eve. They sinned, and this sin not only resulted in them being thrown out of a paradise, (Eden) but it also stained the entire human race with their sins.

God was still willing to forgive His people. He chose the Jewish people to be His people. He led them out of slavery in Egypt, performing miracles that showed his power. He protected His people, and took care of them, though he did increase the time they spent in the wilderness because of their continued rebellion and sin. All God wanted was their obedience, love, and worship, which, if God is God, then I think we can all agree He would be due. God gave them the 10 Commandments as His Law. They violated the one against Idolatry immediately. Still, God forgave them. However, because of their disobedience, He set many laws, including ceremonial laws, designed to create discipline among His people. He wanted as close to a sin free people, and He set up laws and rules designed to bring them to repentance. They continued to violate the Laws, and God considered wiping them from the earth on a number of occasions. Anyway, the book of Deuteronomy uses one phrase many, many times, (repetition is very prevalent in the Bible, reinforcing points over and over) and that phrase is "You must purge the evil among you". (NIV translation) God created laws, and yet man continued to break those laws. That is why, according to the Bible, God allowed His people to be conquered time and again.

Anyway, over time, the Jewish people took the laws of God, and expanded upon them with their own laws, designed to amplify sin. Why would anyone want to make people "more sinful"? Because it shows the need for God's forgiveness.

How could God forgive an imperfect people? If God is perfect, as I believe Him to be, then He knew all that would occur, even if He chose not to step in and "take over" mans minds to prevent it. He allowed us free will, to make our own decisions, and to set our own course. Anyway, since we are an imperfect people, born into sin, how can we ever be sin free? (a requirement for God's forgiveness?) Well, one way was that God allowed sacrifices for atonement. He allowed His people to bring forth animals and other things like olive oil, grains, and so forth, to be sacrificed in their place, for their sins. This was the way it was for the Jewish people, throughout the Old Testament.

However, in the Old Testament, there was a promise of a Messiah, one who would take on their sins, and sacrifice Himself in their place for their sins, past, present, and future. Could this sacrifice be an animal? Of course not. What animal could justify such complete forgiveness for all who ask for it? Could the sacrifice be a man? What man, born into sin, and imperfect, living in sin, could be such a sacrifice? None could. There was only one option. God had to become man, and sacrifice Himself as a perfect sacrifice for all of the sins of mankind.

God made the rules. He made the laws, He cannot break His own Word. He cannot break His own laws. God, being just, perfect, and perfectly just, cannot just change His own Laws. He required a sacrifice for each unintentional sin. Intentional sin was death. Period. That was the Law. So, God sent His Son, (who is actually one part of God Himself) to live a perfect life on earth, according to every law of God and man. That was the purpose of Jesus. Jesus came to earth, in the form of a man, to live a perfect life, to teach, and to sacrifice Himself for us. He allowed Himself to be crucified, and to die for us.

This is the love of God.

Further, think about the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross. Crucifixion was a horrible death. Rome had special forces who specialized in prolonging the agony, suffering, humiliation, and actually the lives of those who were crucified. Crucifixion was an incredibly horrible way to die. I have studied this, to an extent, and this is what I have found. The man who was to be crucified was tortured before he was ever hung up on a cross. Often he was beaten. He carried his own cross to te site of his death. (actually, the condemned probably "just" carried the cross beam, and the upright beams were permanently erected on the site of the crucifixion) He was stripped down, often to nothing. The condemned would be nailed to a cross, with nails through his hands and his heels. (and the bone they put that heel bone through has is a place with some of the most nerves in the entire body) They then would put the man on a little seat, so his body would not completely slump, and bring on death too quickly. They tied his arms and legs, so that his hands and feet would not pull through the nails and cause him to come off the cross.

They displayed the men killed in this manner on the main road leading into town. Think of being one of the 3000 or so men it is estimated that Rome killed in such a manner. It was not only horribly painful, but it was absolutely humiliating as well. Imagine your mother standing there, as you are hung, naked, on a a cross, in a manner sure to bring about death, but a death that could last for days. Imagine being given vinegar (spoiled wine) to drink when you were so thirsty that you would drink anything. Imagine having to wretch that up after drinking, and maybe not even being able to do so. The soldiers would stab the men hanging on these crosses with spears of a sort, that caused large, open wounds. Imagine being hung on this cross, being stabbed in such a manner, and then being given spoiled wine, essentially vinegar, and being given it by a sponge on a stick, to that it flowed down your body into the open wounds.

This is what God did for us, in the form of Jesus Christ. This is what He endured for us. He was humiliated on the cross. They hung a sign above His head, in 3 languages, that said "Here is the King of the Jews". The soldiers taunted Him. (as did some of the people who gathered around Him for just that very purpose)

Did Jesus curse the men? No. He asked God to forgive them, because they "knew not what they do". (essentially, that they had to do what they did)

This next part is really hard to understand, and this is just my interpretation of Scripture, but while hanging on the cross, God the Father turned His back on God the Son. All of the sin of mankind descended upon Christ. He took it ALL on Himself. He became offensive to God the Father. He cried out, in his agony, and His despair, "Father, why do you forsake me?" To forsake is to abandon, to give up completely, to renounce, and in some vases, it can even mean to disinherit. God had to turn His back on Christ, because He had taken on the sins of the world, and He became offensive to God. Imagine being God, and doing this for your children, so that you would not have to just wipe them out and start over, because that is what your justice would require otherwise.

Jesus then died. Some say that he went into hell and battled the devil. I don't know if that is the case or not. His purpose at this point was not to defeat Satan, but rather to defeat death. He died, and the sins He took on Himself died with Him. He was resurrected, and came back, again, in perfection. The sins of mankind, those who ask for them to be removed, are taken away, and sent to the grave. They are removed completely for those who believe. This is the whole purpose of the live of Jesus Christ. He came to save us from ourselves.

That is the difference between the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament looks forward. to the Messiah. The New Testament looks at the Messiah, the Savior. The New Testament is the life of Jesus Christ, and the formation of His Church. In many ways the Old Testament shows the wrath of God as much as His grace. The New Testament completely shows His love for us. He cane to save us, not through our own actions, but through our acceptance of Him as our Lord and Savior. We do try to do better as a result of this, but not as the cause. We are not saved by our actions, but rather our actions should be the reflection of the Lord Jesus Christ's love for us.

The New Testament truly is a love story, the story of God int eh form of Jesus Christ for us, His children. The story does not show any imperfection on the part of God, but rather the extent to which He went to save us from the Law He set forth, and which we disobeyed. It is perfection. It is the perfect, and only possible way that God could obey His own Laws, and save all who would believe. God's Law required sacrifice for sins. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He now awaits us, sitting at the side of the Father. Perfect justice, executed perfectly, for our sake.

Ok that makes sense.


But Here's a question.

If Jews are God's chosen people...then why isn't the main religion Judaism?

It is, but it is modified Judaism. Basically, Christianity takes Judaism back to its roots, with basic rules for living, and a perfect solution for sin. It was all one long process.

God, essentially, pardoned us because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (as long as we believe, accept Christ as Lord and Savior, and repent of our sins) We are expected to live a life that reflects the values of Jesus Christ, but not necessarily all of the ceremonial laws demanded before there was a solution for sin.

In which one of YOUR fairy tales does that beg the question?

*zing!*

touche'

"Those that have not sinned cast the first stone" that was when the crowd wanted to stone Mary Magdalan believing she had sinned. My point being whether your a believer or not if we all live by that teaching of Jesus I,d say this would be a better world IMO

Your opinion is a good one.

This is absolutely a wonderful goal, but let's avoid legislating in His name.

OK with me as long as we try to accept the message and live by it,believe me Rock my intent was not to preach or will I ever