DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns' Mess Starts with Haslem

I wonder if Rush Limbaugh would still be interested in buying a team.

Didn't we also bring in Davone Bess? I know, it's not the draft - although we did swap draft picks for him during the 2013 NFL Draft.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2013/07/johnny-manziels-father-takes-subtle-jab-at-heisman-son



The kid is factually in rehab.

Would that mean we'd be running more to the (extreme) right side?

No, but it would probably mean we have someone in the owner's box that actually knows about football.

Mercy!

To me it simply shows that since it appears what Bernie was saying seems to be very close to what is being said now, there may be a lot more to it than some think.

While it does make sense to understand a lot of this is most likely being said by people leaving the organization, I believe it's also very realistic to understand that nobody within the organization would ever say such things whether they are true or not.

I mean saying such things about this FO if you worked for the Browns would be career suicide. Either the LaConfora or Bernie stories on their own may bring some suspicion, but when you put the two together coming from different points in time, you begin to see a pattern evolve. So to me that lends a little more credibility to it.

You see smoke, your first thought is there's a fire. You get closer, you feel heat tending to add to your suspicion. Closer still, you see actual fire = confirmation of your intial thought.

Sometimes however, upon closer examination, the smoke turns out to be water evaporating thus disproving your inital thought.

Moral of the story: Draw conclusions from observations/facts, not from suspicions.

Another moral to the story......

When you believe it's smoke, pretend it's only steam while your house burns down.

Your moral serves to prove mine...

Here's an article from a different perspective than we've been reading:

DBN

Since Wednesday's evisceration of how dysfunctional the Cleveland Browns organization is, my emotion can best be described as seething. Browns fans have been tortured unlike any other fan base in the NFL -- it's become almost second nature for somebody to rattle our cage with a few more controversies as we all roll our eyes and say, "here we go again."

I've heard team owner Jimmy Haslam, general manager Ray Farmer, team president Alec Scheiner, and the current culture in Berea torn to shreds over the past couple of days. I'm not seething at the current state of the Browns, though. Instead, I'm seething about the likes of Jason La Canfora and Kyle Shanahan, as well as the litany of fans and members of the media who have so easily bought in to the negative and twisted spin placed on our beloved franchise.

Believe what you choose to believe. If more evidence leaks out about the Browns, or if I see a reporter like Jay Glazer dish out the details, I'll admit I was wrong. Until then, I'm coming to the defense of the Cleveland Browns. Let's consider some elements about this whole situation, shall we?

Painting the Picture of Jason La Canfora's Sources
At the beginning of his editorial, La Canfora apologized to Cleveland fans for once praising Haslam, saying that, "things are actually worse than ever in Cleveland, where even a surprising seven-win season has been marred by the unraveling of the staff, the roster, and any faint hopes that for once, finally, this franchise might be on the upswing." He then goes on to say, "The culture in the Browns building is toxic, I'm told. Morale is beyond low. If you can flee, you are fleeing."

Besides being a part of The Three Stooges, prior to being fired last February, the adjective often used to describe the tandem of Joe Banner and Michael Lombardi was "toxic." Fair or not, that reputation simmered for awhile to the point where the attitude toward the Browns at last year's Senior Bowl was "disparaging to downright nasty." It's been no secret that La Canfora has always thought highly of Banner and Lombardi. Banner and La Canfora still shoot the breeze on Twitter, and when he's not enjoying a good old piece of propaganda about Banner, I'm sure the two connect over the phone every so often.

At the end of December, Banner got back into the NFL when he was hired by Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank as a consultant for the franchise. One of the things attributed to Banner was him bringing Shanahan to Atlanta after he negotiated his way out of his contract with the Browns. Considering the duo briefly spent some time together in Cleveland too, I'm sure they had a lot of stories to exchange.

Also, let's not forget about former quarterbacks coach Dowell Loggains (now with the Chicago Bears), who was the only offensive coach outright fired this offseason. He was on the way out well before last season even began after he blabbed/insinuated on a small radio station that Haslam was the guy who gave the final order to draft quarterback Johnny Manziel. Heck, I probably could've thrown a couple bribes at Loggains and gotten him to rat on his former team.

A Little Bit About Kyle Shanahan

When the Browns first hired Shanahan, I was intrigued, but I also questioned the negative reputation he had in the past. In fact, it was La Canfora who pointed out how petulant Shanahan reportedly was with the Washington Redskins and how distant his relationship was with quarterback Robert Griffin III. Is he a bright, young, offensive mind? Potentially. I praised his playbook and zone-blocking scheme the first half of the season, but the most impressive quality of a coach for me is how one can adapt when key personnel changes.

When Alec Mack left the lineup, we failed. The Browns went from averaging 4.44 YPC with him in the lineup to 3.19 YPC without him in the lineup. The team's points per game total dropped from 26.8 points to 15 points. Was Shanahan's whole offense that predicated on one player that he couldn't find a way to improve over a span of 11 games?

When Josh Gordon returned to the lineup, Shanahan didn't know how to utilize him.

When Johnny Manziel made his debut, we couldn't score a single point and for some reason, the entire playbook that had previously worked for the Browns, but just needed a greater degree of mobility from the quarterback position, was scrapped.

If the Redskins' gig was any indication, then I doubt that Shanahan's departure sent shockwaves in Berea, as La Canfora put it. The writing was on the wall all season long: Shanahan didn't want to work with Manziel. The second Manziel was named the starter, Shanahan quit on the team and on the season. Don't believe me? I have never subscribed to The OBR, but I've heard about how reliable their sources have been for a long time, and Lane Adkins has been putting inside scoops on Twitter over the past two months before the rest of the media gets to it. I trust his information before anyone else, so this holds weight with me:

LA - theOBR @LaneAdkins
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Orchestrated his exit plan, while season was ongoing RT @PatMcManamon: Smartest man in the room right now: Kyle Shanahan. #Browns
2:08 PM - 4 Feb 2015


How long before Shanahan moves on from the Falcons? Because if things aren't perfect, he's shown that he crumbles under the pressure or flat out walks out.

It's All About the Tone

Perhaps the most ridiculous parts of La Canfora's report are the ones involving Scheiner. La Canfora first vilifies the team president by saying that "Haslam and Scheiner were aloof, standing in the corner, and not involved in the celebration" after quarterback Brian Hoyer led a comeback victory over the Falcons. The source of their disappointment was the fact that they knew Manziel would not be starting the following week because of the victory. Even if Scheiner wasn't jumping up-and-down, have you guys ever seen Scheiner? The guy is always in a suit, talking about business with a dry sense of humor. People have different personalities -- if he's not chest-bumping players after the win, since when is that something that warrants criticism?

And then, there is this:

At 6 a.m. every Monday, Pettine is joined by Farmer and Scheiner to watch film, with the division between ownership and day-to-day coaching decisions becoming increasingly blurred.

It's all about the way the story is portrayed. Because the whole tone of La Canfora's piece is negative, people are questioning why Scheiner would dare be involved in anything related to film. From Adkins' Twitter account, it sounds like Scheiner would more so ask questions to gain a better understanding of film and personnel. I'm sure people will have different opinions on this (such as kanicki's take that Scheiner needs to stay in his lane), but I see nothing wrong with someone learning a few things about elements outside of their normal scope. If everybody was supposed to stay in their lane, then I suppose that Pettine shouldn't have had anything to do with reviewing the upcoming uniform changes, right?

If I had known that Scheiner was watching film and wrote a story on it, but represented it as a sign of a strong bond between the people in charge, would it even have been a story? I'll tell you this -- it wouldn't have pierced a single radio air-wave.

Things Aren't as Bad as They Seem

Do the Browns have organizational problems? Of course, but who doesn't? More times than not, you iron things out and that's the end of it. Not everyone has a former offensive coordinator quitting and then feeding a diatribe to the media in order to patch up his own reputation.

Does Haslam meddle in affairs more than he should? Probably, but we already knew this.

Was Ray Farmer wrong for texting down to the sideline or the coaching booth on gameday? Yes, because it's against NFL policy. As far as the context of the messages, we really know nothing about what was conveyed. What if it was about Manziel's health during the Carolina game? What if it was about Gordon not being involved on third down plays? What if it was a question about the running back utilization? This is the one issue that could raise problems for the Browns -- there is a time and place for conversing with the staff, and it's not during a game. It could also cost the Browns a draft pick. Beyond that, does it really make the environment in Berea "toxic" moving forward? We've always heard about how respected Farmer is inside and outside the organization, and I don't see how the switch has suddenly flipped beyond the point of no return.

Should Scheiner stay out of the film room? If Mike Pettine has an issue with it, I'm sure he can hash it out with Scheiner. It's certainly not going to cripple the organization.

Let's not forget what really matters: the 53 players who will be on the roster come gameday in 2015. Gordon is gone, but the team managed all of its offensive success without him last year. Mack will be back on a line that, when everyone is playing, is one of the best in the NFL. The defense looked ready for prime time last year. Between all of the cap room the team has in free agency and the picks they have stockpiled in the draft, the roster can be improved on a team that was once 7-4 in 2014. Figuring out what to do at the quarterback position is an integral part of trying to improve the roster, but that is something we've already known for awhile now.

Kevin Jones @Mr_KevinJones
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Browns players believe in Mike Pettine. That outweighs anything and everything.


After all of that, I loop back to La Canfora's piece: organizations across the NFL have issues, so why obsessively pick on the Browns in the manner in which he did? To satisfy others' revenge kicks? The Browns being a "dysfunctional franchise" is nothing but an overblown story about...nothing really. Heck, if we're a "dysfunctional franchise" now, then what the hell were we from 1999-2013?

Rest easy, and Go Browns.

he is in rehab. its not a exaggeration. he had and has problems. its a nice thought that he checked him self in but the timing is funny. the big meeting of all the head browns was sun, mon, and tue and wend he is in rehab.

naw if you use true logic and not your kind of fantasy logic you will see that you are making the exaggeration. jmo.

Oh, this very well describes my thoughts and emotions as well. It's heartening to see that there are others out there besides Rishuz, eotab, Memphis, and others, who are abhorred at the attack on our team and are willing to come to it's defense. We recognize that there may be issues that need to be corrected, but if you think you are going to vilify us without a response, think again.

Referring to someone in rehab as having a drug problem is not an exaggeration.

A different view, I suspect there is as much truth in this as anything anyone else has written.

That article was written by a former member of this board. He isn't really a media guy. He writes about the Browns on his site. He goes to training camp and sits in a lawn chair w/his brother.

But yeah, he is more credible than credited journalists.

And think about this.......you earlier said you would wait until the evidence came out about who actually did the texting. You said you w/hold judgement until then. Well, it came out and you still refuse to acknowledge it. It's all about regime wars w/you guys.

And he could probably do play-by-play from the booth too!

If you note, I did not quote any of his opinions/speculation, only the emotional perspective so it doesn't enter into play as to whether he is an accredited writer or not.

May be I missed a news release or something, but I will withhold judgement until the NFL releases its findings (if they have not already done so). And you never did respond (or missed it) to my post about playing the H & H ticket.

He was already said to be guilty. Are you reserving your judgement to see what the penalty is?

I ignored the H and H thing because I actually like you as a person.......I just think your opinions about the Browns are whacked.

Whacked? For coming to the defence of an unjustified attack against your team, my team, our team, that is unsupported by facts? I am appalled by the lack of support our team is receiving. I have repeatedly stated that I will not be swayed unless the allegations are proven, supported by facts...

What is unjustified and unsupported?

We have a first round quarterback who looked completely helpless on the field and who is currently in rehab, a second round WR suspended for a year due to continual drug issues, a top ten cornerback who barely saw the field and was publicly blasted by teammates, an OC who asked to be let go, a general manager who's under investigation for violating team rules...what part of portraying us as a dysfunctional mess is unsupported or unjustified?

Wait, wait, wait -- I thought we were just discussing hypothetical situations that might happen?

(Don't forget our owner who is currently under federal investigation for stealing money from truckers!)

BS! Your hatchet jobs on Mangini and Banner/Lombardi were legendary.

You did not support "your team" then. But, now you are some holy man for supporting your team and those who question the direction of the FO are demons? Pffftttt.

Believe me, what is being said about the Browns FO this year is passive compared to last year's full out assault. And that is despite there being WAY MORE EVIDENCE in this year's FO than last year's.

Save that lame argument for your cronies. There are a ton of them. You know, the same guys who continued to defend Holmgren even though he was hardly ever in town during his reign as team president.

You know what, man...........I really don't care who you guys root for, but when you get all indignant about supporting the team.........it makes me wanna puke.

Mangini this, Mangini that. Let's sign a petition to not attend a game until he is fired. Banner this. Banner that. One of The Three Stooges.

Get outta my face w/the BS!

So you too are not going to stand up for your team? You are going to pile on while we get ripped by LaCanfora et al...

If I thought the portrait that LaCanfora painted was inaccurate, I would probably say so.

But from where I'm standing it looks closer to the truth than not.

You know.........I think LaCanafora wrote his article w/a certain bias. He chose his words carefully to make the Browns appear bad. However, what he reported was not fiction.

I get why people wanna blame LaCanafora and Shanny, but they are NOT w/the Browns and the problems the Browns have will not disappear by ignoring them, just as Josh Gordon's, Justin Gilbert's, and Johnny Manziel's issues did not disappear when people defended them.

Rish was all over me about being non-sensical and he asked me what I wanted. I answered him. I thought it might draw some response........but no, he--and all but one person---ignored it. It just didn't fit in w/the grouping of people and popular opinion.

Nah, let's play the game of where we all have to agree. There has to be bad guys and good guys. People can't be right sometimes and wrong at other times. Regimes can't make good decisions and bad decisions. Nope, they are either all good or all bad.

Love the open-minded mentality.

Btw............speaking of open minded: Where is ddub? I knew he was sick of the type of posting I was just speaking of, but man, we could use his rational now. He is a lot like Clem.......logical rather than emotional.

There was no objectivity in that article. It was vitriol, unsupported by fact. I cannot, will not, stand idly by while our team is under attack (for there is no better word that I can think of)...

Not only did you stand idle last year while our team was under a much more vicious--and unfair---attack.......you freaking participated in it.

Again, we have a first round quarterback who looked completely helpless on the field and who is currently in rehab, a second round WR suspended for a year due to continual drug issues, a top ten cornerback who barely saw the field and was publicly blasted by teammates, an OC who asked to be let go, a general manager who's under investigation for violating team rules, and an owner who is under federal investigation for fraud.

Those things are all facts that support LaCanfora's assertion that we are a toxic, dysfunctional trainwreck.

Who the heck is ignoring potential problems? Prove your allegations with facts, then you will have my attention. All you have right now is my ire...

So basically, he's you without the brother and the lawn chair

I really don't care if I have your ire. You have been a good friend, but your opinions on the Browns are ludicrous. You ripped Banner mercilessly last year. Now, this year............you are talking about defending your team.

Pfftttt.......

Yep.

I'm glad you used that word "assertion". Your post was carefully worded, and I can live with that. It is when articles come out that state half-truths (perhaps the wrong word here) fueled by rumor, innuendo, and unsupported by fact. Specifically, 1) the texting - we do not have the final word as yet, and 2) Shanahan - yes, he seemed a good OC but what was the real reason(s) or sequence of events relative to his departure - we likely will never know...

Just about every beat reporter from local to national has come out and said that what LaCanfora said may be exaggerated and steeped in a bias, but that it's mostly acccurate.

So be it. And I'm still peeved that I didn't receive an invite to your Super Bowl party. (And you are right about Banner)...

Like I said........our Super Bowl party this year was pretty lame.

...because I wasn't in attendance may have contributed to that. I'm kinda mouthy (in a good way, I hope) when I have a bottle of a nice Rhone red in me...