DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns reach out to Brian Hoyer's camp about extension

Agreed, Dave. How do you miss or overlook the decay in Hoyer over weeks? And it was so huge, so needed to be fixed, what was the QB coach working on instead of that. Pettine should have assigned it or it was unfixable. I thought might be tired arm" on top of bad habits.

I have no idea what his benefits to us were, but fixing QB play wasn't it in any capacity.

I'll openly admit that under the circumstances I believe resigning Hoyer is the best option for the Browns. I'm not suggesting he's the long-term answer but he's the best answer right now. If anyone wants to characterize that as an "agenda" that's their deal. Still I find it perplexing when I see these really strong statements about what the FO wants or what a player wants. From the outside looking in I don't believe it matters in the least if JM in on the team or not. There are no other opportunities in the league where Hoyer would be guaranteed a starter walking in the door. If he were to go elsewhere he'll likely face stiffer competition than anything he'll see from Manziel. He's already out performed JM and nothing that I've seen from Manziel would lead me to fear competing with him.

Given how the JFF experiment worked on the field and what we're hearing about Manziel's approach off the field the coaches and the FO would be committing professional suicide to hand over the keys to the offense to JFF without demonstrable evidence that he's earned it. Hint - they tried that already and we all know how that turned out.

j/c
It really seems as if posters are looking for a QB solution that doesn't exist. The two best QB prospects come with their own shortcomings. Mariota, although talented represents many of the same on-field deficiencies as Manziel. Spread offense, little experience under center, unfamiliar with pre-snap reads, etc. Winston is as big or maybe bigger gamble with his off field antics as Manziel. Can you imagine, a roster with Manziel, Winston, Gordon and Gilbert? I can and it's not pretty. Anyway the Browns will have to reach to get either of these imperfect Quarterback solutions and by so doing, jeopardize good options to address other glaring needs. Free agency offers no slam-dunk can't miss options either. Trading for a guy gives us the opportunity to overpay for another mediocre option as well.

There was some discussion, perhaps in another thread, about how the overall composition of the teams didn't have many glaring deficiencies. I don't think that's true even though the team is more talent rich than it's been in some time. It is doable to improve the run defense in this draft. It is doable to improve the pass rush in this off season. It is doable to improve the running game. While that is being done the team can incrementally improve the receiving talent on this team.

There is a lot of skepticism about motives and methods of this front office. Maybe it's justified maybe not. Only time will tell. One thing they say that I do not question is that the Cleveland Browns must build for long-term sustainable success. Running around with their hair on fire to make drastic changes in the QB room this year puts the team farther from achieving that goal.

I guess we will now see if Gordon was the reason for Hoyer's decline.

Hoyer obviously doesn't want to be here if Manziel is here.

how in the world do you come up with that?

Hoyer obviously doesn't want to be here if Manziel is here.

how in the world do you come up with that?


Well, just look at what Hoyer and his agent have said in the last year. Then compare it with how Hoyer performed in training camp while there was still a "competition". And how he performed after there was no competition - at least until there was plenty of film on him. Couple that with the persistent rumor that Hoyer wasn't all that pleased with Johnny being on the team and, in my opinion, it's fairly obvious that Brian feels that he won't get a "fair" shot at the starter's job here.

Obviously, you disagree. That's fine.

I've read this comparison of Mariota to Manziel enough times to feel like I have to speak up. Mariota is 6-4, 215, with a frame that can easily add 10-15 lbs. He has been clocked at sub-4.5 in the 40, much faster than Johnny (4.69). He has much better throwing skills, better arm, better mechanics; way better athlete. He is a good runner as a QB, but he's not a scrambler. You won't see him freelancing behind the LOS; if he tucks the ball, he's running - North and South. Last, he has shown the intangibles that Manziel never showed - work ethic, leadership, high character. People say they were both "system QBs", but of the two, I see no reason to believe that Mariota's ceiling is confined to the read option. Its just the system he played in - it doesn't mean he doesn't have the wherewithal to adapt his skills to any system/scheme.

Probably doesn't matter anyway; he's going 1 or 2.

This is the most important point. Teams that need QBs don't trade their pick if their is a QB they like on the board. There are three teams in front of us (including the two teams that pick first and second) that need QBs.

We have no shot at Winston or Mariota.

i know what he just recently said and that is all he wants is a legit chance to compete for the job.
as far as training camp goes, i have no idea what happened then. maybe he was still gun shy about his injury. maybe he was a lot more rustier than JM because of the time he had to sit. who knows a lot of QB's look shitty until sept starts. all i know is he brought a lot of hope and a lot of smiles to faces around here after the season started.

Couple that with the persistent rumor that Hoyer wasn't all that pleased with Johnny being on the team and

my god man that stuff is a writers bread and butter. don't be pulled into that stuff.

it's fairly obvious that Brian feels that he won't get a "fair" shot at the starter's job here.

if he is resigned i have every bit of faith that he will get the fair shot that he's asking for.

Obviously, you disagree. That's fine.

we all disagree all of the time. we just don't need to get all combative and juvy about it.

peace baby

i know what he just recently said and that is all he wants is a legit chance to compete for the job.

True. But he keeps on saying it even when it's obvious that if he's deemed the better QB he WILL get the job. Mainly because he already has once. Here.

my god man that stuff is a writers bread and butter. don't be pulled into that stuff.

I have more faith in writers than pretty much anyone on this board. I don't believe they make stuff up out of whole cloth. No, usually someone is feeding them the "rumors" that they report. Now that person may have a hidden agenda but that's why all rumors must be taken with a grain of salt. You can make up your mind about whether you believe this particular rumor. I happen to think there was some substance to it. I'm just not sure how much.

all i know is he brought a lot of hope and a lot of smiles to faces around here after the season started.

This is true. Until it wasn't. He may get a chance to prove me wrong, and that would be nice, but I believe that Hoyer is a good backup QB and that is all he'll ever be. That doesn't mean he won't be resigned or that he won't be our starter. It just means,in my mind,that he won't be the QB that makes all us old timers forget Kosar or Sipe.

I don't disagree with any of the things you say about Mariota. The still doesn't change the facts as I stated them. I have no argument about Mariota's potential to be a good, possibly great, QB in the NFL. But he is not a can't miss prospect.

The Browns are not in position to draft him. In my opinion using two first round picks to move up for Mariota or Wilson would be a mistake.

I think rather than trade picks, we use them for depth on the line. Keep Hoyer around until there is a prospect worth going for.

when will enough be enough though?

people keep saying "theres no can't miss guys, so i wouldn't trade up for <insert qb name>"

ok....so when then? it's like people keep wanting us to wait on a sure QB like luck, and don't even realize that with a QB like hoyer, we will go 6-10 to 9-7, and never be in a POSITION to draft a top QB prospect because we won't have the top 3 worst record in the league.

i mean damn, every year theres good QB prospects, but because they aren't Luck, people are like "well we shouldn't trade up to get him, he isn't a sure thing".

a sure thing almost never happen, so we have to go with the next best thing. I would absolutely trade up for Winston, and let him sit behind hoyer, unless he outright BEATS him.

drafted pieces only works when we have a Good QB. we DO NOT have that. we have more than enough pieces to be a playoff team. we was freaking 7-4 and almost a shoe in for the playoffs until hoyer single handily ripped defeat from the jaws of victory.

I would agree to that. Hoyer is proven to do good when the run game, play action and etc is pumping.

I'm swaying more to picking up a WR and OL in for our first two picks and hopefully we can retain Hoyer. Hoyer, Shaw and then Manziel in that order as QB depth. Then address the DL in the second round and etc. Either take a WR and a OL or a WR and a DL first round!

All JMO.

Knox, his agent is a mouth piece. This is a dog and pony show at this point. The FO will leak out what they want us to hear and Hoyer along with his agent will tell us what they want us to hear.

None of it really means anything. I believe our FO will "talk to" a lot of potential answers to the QB position and Hoyer will be one of them. Does that mean that's the direction they'll end up going? That remains to be seen.

Does Hoyer really want to come back here? None of us know for sure. Will he price himself out of the opportunity to come back here? None of us really know for sure.

I will say this. To say he simply "wants the chance to start" is a silly statement. We all saw JFF play and so did Hoyer. That situation alone makes the Browns probably the EASIST team in the NFL to get the opportunity to land the starting position.

To me, that says something much different. To me it says they want the Browns to re-sign Hoyer and not sign anyone else they think could beat out Hoyer. No Mallet, Glennon, Matt Moore or someone who could actually compete with Hoyer.

Cause we all know JFF can't beat him out.

I totally get what you're saying, and if I thought we could get high enough to get Winston or Mariota I might be on board with it, but like DawgLb just said, Hoyer was doing fine before all the injuries happened, specifically the Mack injury.
But no one is going to do well behind a bad line no matter what, and I think it's time we exercise enough patience to man the trenches first.

I think you have misinterpreted my intent and meaning.

--I never once mentioned that he will be better next year. I was talking about evaluating his play last year.

--No, I am not the only pushing that. I have heard the comments like he was "a rat," "a snake," "the Browns were going to fire him anyway," "he jumped ship because he is weak," "he is a ME person," etc, etc.

--My only point in bringing Hoyer back is because what else do we have and who can we acquire?

+Do we really want to give the keys to the car to Manziel w/out a competition?

--Are we going to gamble that Bradford becomes available? Same w/Manning? Those are pipe dreams.

--Locker will suddenly stay healthy and become accurate?

--Mallet will sign w/us? Do we know that he is even leaving?

--We are going to trade picks to move up for Mariotta, who has the same issues as Manziel..........no guys---not his height and weight and character, but his lack of reading coverages. There is a reason why his numbers were so poor in the red zone last year. Do we want another character risk like Winston? Do you guys really want to sell the farm to move up for one of those two? Do you even think that the Browns will give up on Manziel this quickly and trade multiple picks to move up in a qb weak draft?

+What if Manziel gets suspended?

I am not a Hoyer homer, but man, things look bleak on the QB front. He only wants a chance to compete for the starting job. We are taking a great risk if we do not resign him.

That is what I was saying.

The present timing of picking another first round QB when the team has not moved on from Manziel would be very harmful to disastrous, IMO. Where is the veteran presence at that position going to come from when Manziel and either Mirota or Wilson is on the roster? How much will it cost to even create that mess? What other need are you willing to ignore so that we get to achieve this? Are the Browns more likely to win more games with that QB roster?

If we drafted a QB that was supposed to be our "franchise guy," we would move on from Manziel. We would have to.

I don't think we will be drafting that guy.

I see what you are saying. And for the most part I agree with your assumptions. Hoyer probably is our best option. My point or points are that this doesn't mean he's gonna be the end-all be-all QB that his most ardent supporters think he will be. Add to that the fact that every time he or his agent make a statement the phrase "He only wants a chance to compete for the starting job" is mentioned. I take that to really mean that he doesn't think he'll get a fair chance to do that here which is BS because if that were the case he wouldn't have started any games this year. It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that the only way he signs here is if the Browns over pay him. Which they just aren't going to do. Not with the way he played the last half of the season.

As far as Shanahan goes you know as well as I do that he wasn't gonna be here longer than 2 years anyway. So who really cares why he left? I don't and at this point I don't see why you do. He's one of those guys that will always be looking for greener pastures. Especially if he doesn't have his father around to cover his back. Is he a good OC? Yes. Will he be missed? Maybe. We'll have to see. Does he seem like kind of a whiner? Ahhh....yeah, I'd have to say so.

Vers, you're pretty much saying exactly what I'm thinking. And as silly as it sounds we could use a choir boy or 3 within the Browns. He's never going to be a world beater but until you have someone to tank for he's probably the most stable possibility at the position. It's a shame we lost Shanny because he knew exactly how to script for Hoyer and we have a good potential to shore up all the positions that really let the offense down in the 2nd half last year.

I'm not unduly sorry that he's gone, but if there is a lesson to be learned, then yes, we should care. His departure shouldn't have been a total surprise as we generally thought that he was a "rental" for a season or two only. Was he a "whiner", an odd bird that didn't blend in with the staff, that when he didn't get his own way that he'd pick up his ball and leave? We don't know, we can only speculate, form opinions, based on little that we know. Pettine said it was "overblown"...perhaps so. But I would expect the FO will evaluate/discuss his departure and decide as to whether some policies will need to be adjusted going forward...

but I believe that Hoyer is a good backup QB and that is all he'll ever be.

you may be 100% correct, but i would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. he hasn't started 16 games yet. he's been in the league a few years but not actually starting.
i would like to make it clear that i don't think he's the franchise QB we all are hoping for, but i do want to give him the chance to prove me wrong. i would like nothing more than to bring in foles and hoyer and let the real competition begin. manziels not gonna get it and he will never get it. i want a legit QB in cleveland no matter who it is.

Yeah, I look at Hoyer as a safety net. I also agree that he is not an end-all qb.

Shanny......we disagree, but at least we discussed it in a civil manner, which is progress.

I'd say that is exactly what Hoyer is (and isn't). He never was more than that, but for right now, that is good enough until better comes along.

Whatever his in-season failings were, those need to be identified and corrected, but other than that, he's pretty much our best bet for 2015 - so far.

I would agree that Hoyer will not be our answer, but at this point it just make sense to front load a contract for him with a strong incentive package, then start the hunt for the guy that's going to be THE guy.

Use our existing cap room now and with lower cost future years that are incentive laden. Flip the script on the traditional low cost early years with a big signing bonus and just give him a good sized guaranteed salary in the first few years with declining costs over time. Is there something about the rules that precludes that?

I could live with that.

nothing in the rules, but it is likely to create a holdout situation.

I could see that, but that's why you'd want to put the incentive clauses in the back end so there's still something to work for. I know it's a business and these guys have to think about their futures, but I think it's reasonable to accept a front loaded deal knowing that you're either going to play it out or be released when the smallest payouts come...

It's also a moot point as long as cap carryover is still allowed.

'Brian Hoyer 'shocked' Johnny Manziel needed rehab, willing to battle him a 2nd time'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._social_feature

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on February 07, 2015 at 7:47 PM, updated February 07, 2015 at 7:49 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns quarterback Brian Hoyer admitted he was shocked to learn that Johnny Manziel had checked himself into rehab, and also re-iterated that he'd have no problem battling him for the starting job for the second straight season.

"You spend a lot of hours together (and) I never thought it would be anywhere close to where he's at now,'' Hoyer said at the The Great Big Home and Garden Show at the I-X Center. "I don't know the situation. We had a group message amongst the quarterbacks and stuff. Even up to a few weeks ago Johnny was a part of that and then I found the news out probably the same day all of you did. I was kind of shocked about it.''

Hoyer applauded Manziel for making such a difficult choice.

"If he decided that's what he needs, I think that's a big step and very mature of him to be able to do that,'' said Hoyer. "For all that's surrounding him - the media, the hype, all that stuff - for him to be able to take those steps, I think that shows he cares about himself and if you read the statement his family, his teammates and the Cleveland Browns, I wish him the best."

Hoyer, who was benched in favor of Manziel in the biggest game of the season against the Bengals, offered his support the minute he found out about Manziel.

"I reached out to Johnny and hopefully he gets what he needs out of it,'' said Hoyer. "I'm hoping for the best for him. I know people want to make it out to seem like we're enemies, but really, we became really good friends throughout the entire season. I never felt like he was trying to undermine me or anything like that. I felt like he was always very supportive and I hope he gets what he needs and I wish him the best.''

Hoyer, an unrestricted free agent on March 10 unless the Browns re-sign him before then, re-iterated that he'd have no problem competing with Manziel for the starting job for a second straight season.

"It's something I've already done once,'' he said. "I'm not afraid of doing it twice. For me, I've never shied away from any competition, whether it was here or whether it was in New England to fight for the backup job or wherever it may be. Like I said, that will all go into consideration for when I make that decision, but it's not something that's going to keep me from staying here. I know that that's been put out there that I won't come back here if Johnny's here. That's not true.''

Hoyer was also sad to hear that All-Pro receiver Josh Gordon had been suspended for a minimum of a year for violation the NFL's substance abuse policy again.

"It's disappointing it's gotten to this point,'' he said. "Hopefully the same thing for Josh -you wish him the best and hopefully he can figure it out."

He re-iterated that expectations for Gordon coming off his 10-game suspension for marijuana may have been too great. Many of Hoyer's interceptions over his final three starts were on passes intended for Gordon, who wasn't up to speed with the new offense.

"Like I told you guys before - it's hard enough to play games when you're practicing every week, every day of the season let alone be suspended 10 games and come back and be expected to be a key component of the offense,'' he said. "There were times when we definitely were not on the same page. When you're figuring that out in a game it can definitely hurt you.

"We were able to overcome some of that in the Atlanta game and still win. When you have those mistakes against a good defense it's definitely going to hurt you. You don't blame Josh. Josh is in a tough situation. He was brought back. Obviously everyone knows how talented Josh is. You want to get him on the field. You want to get him the ball. It just didn't work out for us."

Hoyer hopes that Gordon, who led the NFL with 1,646 yards in 2013, hasn't played his last football as a Brown.

"You just hope for a guy who's that talented, who's a well-liked guy in the locker room, for his sake he's able to get things right and stay in the building and on the field because he's capable of great things,'' he said.

Hoyer dismissed the notion that he's back in favor now that Manziel's in rehab.

"All of that is kind of outside noise,'' he said. "For me, I'm going to look at (his decision to stay or go) from my perspective and just how it affects my life. The stuff that's outside of that is up to the other people involved in this situation.''

Hoyer, who acknowledged that Text-gate and the circumstances surrounding offensive Kyle Shanahan's decision to opt out of the last two years of his contract will impact his decision on whether or not he wants to come back, agreed with general manager Ray Farmer that the hometown angle shouldn't be a reason the Browns re-sign him.

"Me being from here didn't make me the best quarterback for the Browns and me being from here doesn't make the Browns the best team for me, either,'' he said. "Not many people get a chance to play where they grew up and where they're from. It's a very unique situation."

He also understands why the Browns benched him for that pivotal game against the Bengals. In his previous five starts -- thanks in part to injuries to Alex Mack, Jordan Cameron and Miles Austin and the rustiness of Gordon -- Hoyer threw one touchdown pass against eight interceptions.

"You know what? It's hard to make an argument that they shouldn't have taken me out,'' he said. "You look at the numbers. But I think also there's more than just meets the eye, more than numbers. So for me, we had a good thing going. We had a few rough patches. And they made the decision to go the other way. I can't blame them for that."

He added, "if we had finished the season the way we had started it, I think we're having a totally different conversation here. So that's something that Ray and Joe (Linta), my agent, will have to discuss and they can hash that out.''



(end)

Hoyer on JF and the threat of JF:

lol, pretty much. As of right now, if Hoyer and manziel battled in camp, it would be a slaughter.

If Hoyer (or any FA QB) wants to be a starting QB, the avenue of least resistance right now would probably be Cleveland.

If I were him, I'd chase the money. Unfortunately, your stock may never be higher, so go to the highest bidder. I can understand the desire to play, and I imagine both of those things will make the decision. I can see a fresh start in a new environment playing into it as well.

I read his comments as a guy not closing the door, but ready to look at other options.

I don't believe Farmer was ever a fan of Hoyer.

I think Hoyer knows this.

That's why he's waiting for the texts to come out. He wants to see if there was anything disparaging about him in them. If not, he'll probably be willing to stay at the right price. If there is, I think he's gone.

He's gone from having little leverage to having leverage over the organization. The smartest thing the Browns can do is resign him. He knows that. He knows the organization knows that. He knows Pettine wants him. He's enjoying this a bit.

Honestly, I think he knows what was in the texts. If most of them were directed to Shanahan or about him I'm sure he shared them with Hoyer.

I also think that Hoyer holds zero leverage over the Browns.
The last 5 games he started were horrendous and that could be looked at as being kind. The only way he might hold leverge would be if those texts were asking, "Why isn't Hoyer playing? He's the best we've got". Do you really think that's what Farmer was relaying to the sidelines?

I think Hoyer is history as a Brown. I agree with Mourg when he pointed out that all their moves so far point to giving Manziel every chance to win the job. I also think they'll offer someone like Mallet a buttload of money to come here and try and take it from him.

Frankly, at this point, having seen a lot of Hoyer, a little of Manziel and a little of Mallet I can't really disagree with that strategy if that's actually what the Browns are thinking.

Any QB has at least some leverage over the Browns. Our QB's are Manziel and Connor Shaw.

Hoping Manziel can change his course and banking on it are two different things, and if we're doing the latter, we're in more trouble than what's being portrayed.

I have no doubt that the organization still believes that Manziel can be a viable option. I also see no way a team can rationally move forward with that not being the B or even C option. I fully expect us to sign a bridge QB in FA and/or draft one at some point. We will add 1-2 QB's that can reasonably be expected to start.

Manziel can't be our first option heading into next year, and any agent worth his salt will use that as leverage.