DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns' Mess Starts with Haslem

LOL..........you are still my friend even though you piss me off in these regime discussions.

I have not yet crossed my personal Rubicon...

The word 'addict' has appeared once in this thread, and that was just now, by you.

And it's been explained to you dozens of times by multiple posters, but no one is crying about you merely being snarky or condescending. The point that has always been made was that A) if you wish to be condescending, you shouldn't whine when you receive similar responses and that B) if you wish to be condescending, take time to ensure that what you're saying is correct.

You're getting angry at others for saying that a man in treatment for substance abuse has a drug or alcohol problem.

It's fine to have an opinion, but just know that you're closer to describing what you wish to be true than what is apparent on the surface. The notion that he has a serious problem with drugs and alcohol is a far more likely scenario than 'ah, he's just a kid who's into the 'party lifestyle' a bit too much and he's just making sure it doesn't become a problem'.

It clearly already is a problem.

Either is a speculative opinion, but there's certainly enough evidence to suggest that he has a problem with drugs and alcohol.

He's had apparent alcohol issues since college that carried over to the NFL, he was photographed rolling a bill in a bathroom, and he showed visible symptoms of cocaine use in just about every other photo he appeared in. He didn't show up for work and was reported to have been still drunk the next morning, and he's currently in a treatment facility for substance abuse.

And you want to act like it's an exaggeration to say he has substance abuse problems?

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't act like it's the most logical conclusion. Logic would say he most likely has substance abuse issues.

All signs point to it.

No DUI = no problem is on par logically with 'I bet Josh doesn't smoke weed anymore because that was in college, and people mature after college'

The proof is he is in rehab. All you really need to do is look up what rehab is for.

Now it's already known that going into rehab can automatically put you in phase two of the substance abuse program of the NFL. Why would anybody subject themselves to that if they didn't feel they had a problem?

The proof is obvious for anyone willing to look at it.

The noun rehabilitation comes from the Latin prefix re-, meaning “again” and habitare, meaning “make fit.” When something falls in to disrepair and needs to be restored to a better condition, it needs rehabilitation. People seek rehabilitation after an accident or surgery to restore their strength, or to learn to live without drugs or other addictive substances or behaviors.

On one hand, I agree with you. Let's face it - young, out drinking, rich........"hey guys, take a look at this", as he rolls up a bill. "what's it look like I'm doing?"

On the other hand, I have to question whether he was on drugs or not. No, there's no "failed test" that we know of. But, some on here have said a player that has never failed a drug test only gets tested once per year? Is that correct? (unlike JG, who, being in the program, got tested a lot more.)

Who knows.

I'm not sure, but the fact that he put himself in rehab would not have anything to do with the NFL. I don't think he is in any stage. Yet. Won't know until he fails something and then he would be in a stage.

I wasn't simply referring to the one photo where he was rolling a bill. I was also referring to the dozens of photos where he appears visibly high in cocaine.

And I'm not a lawyer or a journalist. I don't need to have definitive proof to make a statement. I can be asked to provide evidence to back my statement, and I have, as there is mounting evidence to suggest that he has a substance abuse problem, most notably that he has checked himself into treatment for substance abuse.

As for whether or not Manziel lands in the NFL's substance-abuse program, it's up to the medical professionals in charge, and it's confidential, according to NFL spokesman Greg Aielllo.

Manziel's decision, which comes a month after he admitted in his postseason interview that he'd have "to make some deals'' with himself, follows five or six years of alcohol-related incidents and a few run-ins with the law that have had those close to him concerned about his well-being for some time.

In a New York Times article in 2012, Manziel's father, Paul, revealed that he made a deal with Manziel when he was in high school: He'd buy him a new car if he abstained from alcohol during his junior and senior years. But one summer night, a store security guard smelled alcohol on Manziel's breath and called the police. Manziel was taken to jail, and his father picked him up the next day.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/how_johnny_manziel_raised_his.html

Yes, the NFL CAN put him in substance abuse policy by him entering rehab. Not saying I agree with that, but it is NFL policy.

Not only that, but I also highlighted that his dad even "bribed him or was willing to reward him depending on your point of view", from not drinking during his junior and senior year of high school and even that didn't help. It's been an ongoing issue, not something he simply felt was needed to help him "not go down that path". It's a path he's been on for some time.

All I can say, and this isn't pertaining to you per say, is that if JFF was so in denial as some posters on this board, he still wouldn't be in rehab getting the help he truly needs.

The glaringly obvious thing there that you're missing is that all of those people you just described had substance abuse problems. Whether or not they admit to a title like "alcoholic" is irrelevant.

You don't get to rehab without having a substance abuse problem. Period.

I don't know Tab, but after reading your replies to his problems, I certainly feel like I'm on candid camera.

There are reports dating back to his high school and college years showing just how much of a problem alcohol has already been to him. In college he had to go to alcohol counseling. It's nothing new. It's a long time trend just how much of a problem it's been.

If that isn't the proof you need, I feel only some horrendous event would do it for you.

This is correct, yes.

Manziel has taken at least one drug test since he has arrived in the NFL, that he may or may not have failed.

Either way, it stands to reason that passing one drug test is not a clear indicator that a man currently in treatment for substance abuse issues does not have substance abuse issues.

Okay, thanks. It seems to me I have also heard that the nfl does not "tell" if a player has failed a test - his first positive test - for "street" drugs. (non PED street drugs)

Is there an automatic suspension for a first time "failed" drug test? If not, John M. have just failed a street drug test that we are unaware of due to policy?

Sorry to be asking all these questions, and yes, I'm on the internet and hence I could spend hours researching the answers - but it seems to me there are some on here that have this knowledge already, due to previous research.

All of this is correct, yes.

Your first failed test for non-performing enhancing drugs is not disclosed or made public.

For example, when Gordon was suspended for codeine, he had already failed a previous street drug test.

You're trying to argue that it's an exaggeration to say a man who just checked into treatment for substance abuse issues has substance abuse issues.

How did you expect that to be received?

What does this look like?

Pupils the size of an owl, flushed face, wrists or elbows crooked inwards like the arms of a T-Rex, fingers crooked or waving like a wizard casting a spell.

I spent two years of my life struggling with cocaine addiction, I can spot a user from a mile away, and I would be willing to bet a paycheck that Manziel was doing his fair share of cocaine this year.

If one disagrees with me, so be it, but I find it beyond absurd that we're debating whether or not a man who checked himself into treatment for substance abuse issues has substance abuse issues. Especially when considering that one of his red flags coming out of college was potential substance abuse issues (and who spent his rookie year exhibiting signs of substance abuse issues)

Hell, I thought it was absurd that we debated whether or not a man rolling paper currency in a Vegas bathroom was doing so to insufflate narcotics

That took some guts to post. Congratulations on your recovery. What's done is done, but going forward, the Browns have to find a way to do a better job recognizing behavioral issues with potential draftees, especially in the early rounds.

One quote that always stuck in my mind was Dan Patrick recalling a conversation with an NFL scout who told him"when I want to know about a kid in terms of character, I talk to the equipment manager and trainers".

Whatever we're doing, it's not enough. It's been a problem for the organization for over a decade now.

And guys like Gordon and Manziel were practically waving red flags in our face

I would also congratulate you on your beating your cocaine addiction. That's not an easy battle to win.

I do have to ask, though, what is this wizard infatuation you have?

You're right.

Maybe he went to an inpatient treatment facility for substance abuse to get his teeth cleaned.

Maybe he has a problem with alcohol. (which seems very likely) Also, maybe he has a psychological problem that leads him to make bad decisions, and that needs to be addressed first, as it leads to the rest of his problems. We can make all kinds of assumptions, but none of us really know for certain.

I had always stated that I felt his lack of intelligence and poor decision making were more of cause for concern than his drug or alcohol use.

But who knows anymore.

tab...........give it up. He has a problem. It's best to admit it.

That is what I was trying to get you guys do w/Gordon when you all assailed my character for suggesting he needed help.

Ignoring the problem does not make it go away. JM checked himself in because he either has a problem or he knows he is going to get popped.......or both.

Back off of this argument. You have no argument. I am not saying that in a mean way. More as a friend. You need to let this one go.

vers...days ago I said that Haslam was big part of what is wrong in Cleveland...you obviously missed it.

Concerning the article Canfora wrote, the hatchet job on the Browns and Haslam, readers need to know...
"La Canfora is close friends with former Browns CEO Joe Banner, whom Haslam fired last February."..(*link below)

VERS...the part in quotes, above.. I didn't write that...another member of the media obviously thought the point about Banner and Canfora being "close friends", needed to be emphasized for his readers.

Now, why would a writer point this out to their readers?
...might be that this writer believes the readers need to know more about who is behind Canfora's article. Also, this writer is sending a message to Canfora and lil Joe, the media in Cleveland knows who is behind Canfora's hatchet job on the Browns and Haslam.


Joe Banner also played a role in hiring Shanahan away from the Browns...

..."At season’s end Shanahan, the lone bright spot on offense, perhaps, presented Pettine with a 32-point presentation on why he wanted to get out of his contract, sources said. And after much deliberation among lawyers and negotiation, in a bizarre precedent, a statement was crafted and Shanahan was a free man. He would end up in Atlanta, a coveted job, and a hiring that Banner, consulting for Falcons owner Arthur Blank, played a role in;"...(*link below)

This article points out that Joe Banner helped the Falcons hire Shanahan away from the Browns. I wonder when lil Joe's first contact with Shanahan was?

News that Banner was working for the Falcons was made public on Dec 24, 2014.

On Jan 2, Josh Gordon along with several of his teammates and Browns coach, Mike McDaniel, took a private flight to Vegas. According to Gordon, he thought he had completed his 2014 football season after the Browns last game against the Ravens on Dec. 28, 2014, when our season was over. So, on Jan 2, 2015, Gordon was drinking while on the flight and upon landing he gets a call from the NFL telling him to take a pee test within 4 hours....WOW, what a coincidence, right?

But in today's world of wireliss communication, all it takes is one text or phone call to the right person and certain wheels can be set in motion.

On Jan 6th, news that Shanahan was leaving the Browns first became public...on Jan 18th news linking Shanahan to the Falcons OC job became public...Shanahan was hired for the Falcons OC job with the help of Joe Banner. Mike McDaniel was fired by the Browns on Jan 15th and there is a possibility that he will be joining the Falcon in the near future.

On Feb 2 it is announced that Manziel checked himself into rehab. My first thought was wow, that sure was sudden.

Wanting to get a little background about NFL QBs who have entered rehab...I found that Brett Favre chose to enter rehab in May 1996, for his addiction to pain killers. According to wiki ... "Had he chosen not to go, the NFL would have imposed a $900,000 fine."...(*link below)

...yep, that would be enough to make a player understand the need for rehab before the NFL drops the hammer.

I don't know if Manziel was about to have the hammer dropped on him by the NFL and he entered rehab on his own before the NFL could imposed sanctions...but, it sure was sudden.

There is no doubt that Haslam has made some mistakes and being a rookie owner, it seems that he has to learn all his lessons the hard way.

He may not have understood it at the time but one "huge mistake" Haslam made was to hire Joe Banner, and I said that from day one, when it was announced that Banner might be part of Haslam's management team. Haslam didn't understand just how vindictive the man was and how the rest of the NFL viewed Banner... it's a lesson that Haslam is still learning.

So, Gordon got busted by the NFL on Jan 2nd.
So, Farmer got busted for texting, first reported on Jan 9th.
Manziel suddenly enters rehab Jan 28.

Did I mention that Joe Banner has friends in the highest positions within the NFL?

Now Banner is the Falcon's problem..it's just a matter of time before little Joe is sent packing again...but the Falcons need to understand, Joe Banner burns bridges every time he is fired.


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I don't remember anyone "assailing your character." What I remember is you found him guilty of things you had no evidence of -- not one iota of proof. You just declared him guilty without any facts to back up your charges.

If I declared Gordon a liar when he said that his .17 ng test was due to inhaling second hand smoke, I would hope people would hold me accountable. .17 is practically microscopic. How can I declare him a liar and a "punk" without any facts? The reports of his DUI were that he barely blew above the limit. Now we have that he drank two beers and had a couple drinks on a plane. Those are the facts. Those facts make it look like someone has it out for this guy. Now, there is no excuse on his attitude, actions, and effort on the field once he came back. I admit that. He acted like an immature kid (he acted like a punk but I don't know for sure he "is" a punk) who is bitter and resentful. Could the Browns have handled this kid better than they have over the past year? Looks like we got him a freakin job at a car lot.

You declared Gordon guilty of any and all of the "Vers charges" although the alternatives, which were based on fact, were (and still are) very plausible.

One thing I never read on this board is why guys like JT, Mack, etc... aren't ever held accountable, haven't created a locker room where crap like this is never tolerated? There are a number of teams that make it clear the second a "me" guy arrives in camp that there is a line you don't cross -- or else. The Brown's have a serious lack of veteran leadership on this team and especially in the locker room. Instead of talking about guys leaving or retiring how about asking them to step up and help turn this around?

I don't see EO as "ignoring the problem." And, I'm not sure what he's supposed to "give up." I see him as holding on to the possibility that our GAMBLE last year might pay off. A miracle? Yes.

Every Browns fan that wanted to pull the trigger and get Manziel knew it was a shot in the dark. A chance to get that "special" guy -- a winner. A quarterback who is a winner. Many of us were willing to roll the dice. Gambling is still gambling. The big gamble was laid in our lap and we bit. High risk, high reward.

PDR and Vers have not been proven right. EO has not been proven wrong. Right now the Manziel haters believe they have every right to pile on. To some degree they do.

I stated in the "Usage of Johnny Manziel" thread that we were using him exactly as we should. Keep him on the bench and do not let him touch the field. The second he hits the field his value will either go down, or we will be in a situation where we are stuck if the coaches believe he is not the guy. We put him on the field. His first drive went 80 yards against a good defense, with him trotting into the end zone.

If we kept Johnny on the bench we can only speculate on what his trade value might be right now.

I believe Pettine knows that, knew that, and I believe (feel) like he was hoping to make it through those last few games.

Johnny can make all the throws. His arm is plenty strong enough (when he is fit and in good form). I think he can develop in the pocket. I believe he can read a coverage in a split second (feel it) and know where to go with the ball. The problem is his thinking. He may know where to go with it and then decide to do something else. This is the NFL. He doesn't have 5 years to sort his thinking and decision making out. He may have 5 games. That might be it. He believes he is the new Farve. I hope he realizes he's not going to get the same opportunities that Farve got. He's not going to be able to get away with as many things as Farve got away with. Things are different.

We are stuck with him. Is he an immature, BS artist, with a booze problem? Looks like it. Maybe even worse. I was one his biggest pimps on this board. It would be nice if he dropped his posse, worked a real AA program, arrived at 6 in the morning every day, listened to mentors, etc...

There is a chance, although most of us would never bet on that happening. A chance he turns the whole thing around. Its a long shot, but that's all I have. Homer time, I'm a Brown. There are some who seem to passionately not want that to happen, no matter what. They seem to want him to fail. I'd like Haslam, Farmer, Pettine, and Manziel to all turn this thing around and succeed. When I read the board it seems the end of the story has already been written.

What we can do is take an honest look at where we are. JFF is in rehab which is the only possibility for him to ever show his true ability to play at the NFL level. Now people can say "It looks like it" when describing "he might have a problem". But there is solid evidence coming from his own family dating back to high school that there is a real problem.

Much evidence has come to light that Farmer indeed did send texts from the booth to the sidelines in violation of NFL rules.

The problem then becomes a question of denial, not the evidence. While the book hasn't been written, the chapters have been outlined.

To be fair, Gordon's first interview with Cleveland media consisted of him admitting that he had lied about failing a drug test. And he has lied on several occasions since then in his short tenure here.

So I don't think it's dubious or without basis to call him a liar.

He is absolutely on to something. When Haslam took over there was much fanfare over him meeting with Kraft and others on how to build a successful franchise.. is he doing what they told him?

There is a reason this doesn't have a Browns logo on it.. and its the same reason they just won the super bowl..

Yes, honesty and reality.

Less drama.

For anyone to speculate that Carr or Bridgewater will win more playoff games than Manziel is simply blowing hot air. I'm tired of reading we should have drafted them. There isn't one issue I've ever disagreed with more on this board. If Bridgewater or Carr ever make it to a second tier status, not elite but second tier starting NFL quarterback status, I will be blown away.

I don't want to hate on them, I think they both are probably really good guys, but it will take more of a miracle for either one of them to overcome their deficiencies than it will for Manziel. IMO

We gambled on Johnny's upside and his upside was huge. Bridgewater and Carr are who they are. Unless they have a major transformation their ceiling has practically been reached. When things get tight, when games mean something, when its late November, when they are playing against a top defense in weather, when its third down and nine, then and only then will it matter to me what they do.

j/c:



https://twitter.com/nfldraftscout

Or Booze addiction?

Not for nothing, but randy Lerner met with Kraft when he first took over as well. I'm not sure what that means.

You can't do what Kraft has done unless you have your Bill Belichick.

All the good thoughts, belief systems and plans don't mean diddley unless there is someone to carry out the plan and see vision to completion.

Kraft didn't really do squat until he got his Belichick. That's when things began to happen.

Really, Kraft only made two good decisions. Hiring Belichick and letting him do his job.

Now that's a lesson that Haslam might want to spend a little time contemplating. that is of course if all the rumors being circulating are true about him putting his nose into everything.