DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... PDR's olive branch/challenge to Christians

Unfortunately, just talking about it is considered "Preaching" by many.

I didn't even think you were preaching Riley. I thought you were relaying a great message.

To me preaching falls along the lines of telling me I or others go to hell for not believing or my life couldn't be fulfilling or meaningful if I didn't accept the their deity.

Unfortunately there are a few of these people who believe their beliefs should decide our laws or enable their prejudices.

IIRC there is no proof that the woman to be stone and Mary Magdalan are the same person. I know it is believe by many, but the bible doesn't specifically state that.

Since I started this thread I feel an obligation to update. Those who wish to mock an aura of self-importance can use that as ammunition.

But I have to go back to Cleveland to bury a friend. I can do pithy comments, but the statement I want to make here should warrant the gravity I assumed it could have.

In the meantime, these are my words to a fellow Dawg via PM:

Aaand like I told you in this thread previously, the Bible doesn't say that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. How that got into history, I don't know, but it doesn't say that and you can't discount the fact that he also said, 'repent and believe'. To the woman taken in adultery he said, '....neither do I condemn you, now go and SIN NO MORE.'

I can understand you discounting the 'fairy tale' stuff as you call it, but you can't discount his words.

Please pass on and accept my condolences for your friend.

To this I would say Jesus was a 'spirit of the law' not 'letter of the law' man, but give me a few days to elaborate.

I.E. make Mary a whore or don't make her a whore...do you feel Jesus' reaction would differ?

How would Jesus' words and actions towards Mary differ in either instance - the one I suppose (whore) or the one you do (not a whore)?

And thanks, Ted.

What about his conduct? I could write you books about Christians who go into prisons to befriend criminals, those who start shelters to get drug addicts and prostitutes off the streets, those who feed the needy with no regard to their beliefs or lifestyles, those who work at food banks and kitchens on Thanksgiving day feeding the needy... and they all do it for the same reason Jesus did, to help people and to develop followers of Jesus/God.


And I could tear it apart just as quickly. I defy you to find me one thing Jesus said about the government filling anybody's needs or doing things for the "common good"... let's start with 2 Thesselonians 3:6-10 - 6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”


Jesus was extremely harsh with sinners. He told rich folks that to achieve salvation they should give away all that they owned. He flipped over the tables and threw the salesmen out of the temple.. and he ended most of his encounters with sinners with the same command in one form or another.. "go and sin no more".. See, Jesus was compassionate with most sinners, but he also expected them to change. This is embedded in our current dialogue, as a Christian, you are supposed to not only be compassionate toward a sinner but you are supposed to accept that they don't need to change, lest you are judgmental. Not once, did Jesus accept sin.


That he did, as he should have. If you are going to say something stupid, go for it... if you are going to say something stupid and say that I told you to say it, then I'm going to be much harder on you.


Ah but he did. He told her to go and sin no more...

It will be interesting to hear your view in "a few days". We've been waiting 3 weeks for your "considered thesis".

Sorry about your friend.

Government or community?

There's plenty of 'Render unto Caesar' text to tie Jesus to socialism, but his true stance would be to point out to the community that if they took care of their own, the government wouldn't have to force them to.

Welfare exists so that lazy and/or insane people don't fall into the unpredictability of hunger and the insanity it causes.

Jesus wouldn't make an argument for or against welfare. He would be too busy tending to the lazy/insane person.

That He was, in fact I believe that is one of the biggest reasons he was sent, to simplify the law.


I doubt his actions would have changed much. Jesus seemed to not really care where you came from as much as he cared where you were going. And in each case, he wanted people to put away their sins and follow him... So whether Mary was a whore or not before her encounter with Jesus is irrelevant because she was a sinner of some form or fashion..

Oh crap! Ran over here to read the "Considered Thesis" and found the same old same old.

Patience is a virtue of which I have none.

the king james version of the bible doesn't say that he was a documented pedophile.

but he was.

I quite literally just said a friend of mine died, I'm going to his funeral, give me a few days, if you still want to mock my self-importance, go ahead.

You went ahead.

Those are facts. Interpretation is up to the reader.

Outside of a belief that he was the son of God born to a virgin, I don't think we disagree here

Every argument you make against me is rooted in my assault on Christianity and in agreement with my feeling that many or perhaps even most followers of Christ don't even make a half-assed effort to follow Christ.

Your words which I quoted are well put.

_________________________

really... interesting... what documentation?

Sorry, didn't see that post. Good luck, sorry for your loss.

sorry bout your friend.


make sure you dodge the pot holes, or you'll never make it out of the city. or in, for that matter.

No problem.

Thank you for clarifying.

yes sorry for your loss PDR.

My 18 year old daughter just buried a good friend of hers ( 20 years old), there is no good way around it.

I will offer prayers for strength if that is ok.

The most important lesson I learned as a 17 year old covering obits is that people die.

The best honor you can give is to always try to remember them and let that have an effect on future decisions.

Thanks.

I thought the intent of this thread was to not really discuss his deity as much as it was to discuss his earthly actions...


Only when you mock and belittle. I know you are very capable of solid discussions on the topic.


I think the vocal, self-appointed leaders of the faith are often way off base, which is why they make such good news stories and why if Jesus came back tomorrow, I have little doubt he would start with them and not the homosexuals or other "sinners" those folks love to rage on about. I think your average butt-in-the-pew person on Sundays generally does a better job of following the example of Christ.

In fact, it would be pretty funny to be witness to Jesus return and land right in the middle of a gay pride rally with the outspoken, hate filled "believers" on one side and the homosexuals on the other and watch which side Jesus went off on first... because I feel comfortable that I know the answer.

Your contributions to this thread have literally made me smile and nod, and I sincerely thank you for your input.

Whatever..is that all you got

Good fight Riley! You had everybody scrambling for their Bibles and searching the net to find answers to your posts!

The Preacher man at church is not that successful.

Is there anyone one here who believes the Bible is the literal word of God?

This is true.

It is also true that Mary Magdalene is often mentioned in the Gospels, (more than even some of the apostles)and she was a woman who had a demon possession, which Jesus cast out. She became a disciple of the Lord.

The Catholic Church worried that she was becoming too popular, as one of those who stood by Jesus as He hung on the cross, one of those who helped prepare the body of Jesus for burial, and the 1st person Jesus appeared to in His glory following His resurrection. Thus, they made her into the prostitute. (Pope Gregory the Great)

My sincerest condolences on the death of your friend. I pray that you, his family, and his friends can find comfort in a tragic time like this.

I believe that it is definitely the inspired Word of God.

The Gospels contain minor differences in the stories of the life of Jesus, as would any eyewitness accounts. However, the major points are all the same.

The Bible uses words like "Forever" rather casually. The Bible speaks of mountains standing forever, and such, as a literary device, rather than as meaning eternally. The account of Genesis has 7 days, and I honestly do not know if that is an exact 7 days, or if that is a method of showing man how God followed His own Sabbath Law.

I have been reading the Bible, starting at "In the beginning", and I find truths and a pattern throughout it all so far. (I am up to the 1st chapters of Joshua so far) There are sanitary rules that were quite advanced, and prevented the spread of disease that wiped out huge numbers of other peoples. (Such as using the bathroom outside of the camp, in a hole, and burying the waste, washing hands before praying over dinner, isolation of soldiers returning from war who had blood on them so that they could not risk any infection that would then spread to the rest of the community, similar isolation for people with certain sores, and so on)

Considering that this was hundreds and thousands of years before Christ, this is pretty revolutionary stuff.

The Bible really is a pretty fascinating Book. I am really ashamed that I have never sat down and read it cover to cpver before now.

I absolutely do.

100% +1

I know you are dealing with something more important right now, but when you get the chance, I still don't understand this statement, especially in the context of the OP about Jefferson's revised bible. Jefferson didn't just cut out the fairy tales and magic. He also eliminated passages where Jesus shows himself to be explicitly judgmental. (I made a post a while back with some examples.)

Even if his self-deification is stripped away, I don't see how anyone can reach the conclusion that he was just some laid back dude. Jesus wasn't the first guy in Jewish history to claim a direct connection to God. One step back from the Son of God is Jewish prophet, and we know how judgmental those guys were. One thing we can say for sure, Jesus was building a movement, and there were clearly insiders and outsiders, and the outsiders weren't just the rich.

if you take away the fairy tales and magic, most people in America TODAY wouldn't even be christians.

The religious folks, who just so happen to be republicans a lot, would view Jesus as a communist, fraud, who hates America, and doesn't like rich people while trying to take their money and give it to those lazy poor people.

Jesus preached taking care of the man beside you. giving your wealth to help other people. Loving people regardless of sin.

The people who claim they are christians in politics do anything BUT that. Hell, a lot of christians in this country are only christian by affiliation.

example:

Leviticus 11:7-8
And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you.

yet I wonder how many christians on this board has eaten pork in the last week, or hell yesterday.

That's my problem. If you're going to claim to be christian, then be christian. Don't be a christian only when its convenient for you.

Plus, not all of Jesus' supporters were poor.

The man who provided the tomb where Jesus was placed after His crucifixion was one of Jesus' supporters, and was quite well off. Many women supported Jesus' ministry, and did not do so by being poor. Jesus point was not about money, but that rich people are more likely to put their reliance upon money instead of upon God. They were more likely to worship money instead of worshiping God. Money can easily become an idol to people if they are not careful. Money is not the root of all evil, but the love of money is. It can be a form of Idolatry as well as inspiring covetousness, and so on.

You are correct about Jesus as well with regard to His obedience to the Law. Jesus lived a life that was perfect in accordance to the Law. He never did anything that violated the Law, neither in commission of a sin, nor in the omission of an action that would be considered a sin. Jesus did rail against many of the ceremonial laws that the Pharisees had put in place, especially those that were designed only to make them appear to be pious, wearing their supposed devotion like a gaudy accessory.

Jesus did not just say "live and let live, and whatever people want to do is just fine." People misinterpret the whole idea of not judging others as well. The point is that we should not set ourselves up as judge and jury. That is not our role. However, pointing out when someone does something that endangers their life after this one is fine. Does anyone really believe that Jesus meant for us to stand by silently as people moved away from God, falling into sin and death? Not if they know who He was/is. Jesus wanted us to make sure that we understood that we are saved not by anything we do, but rather by the Grace of God, and as such, we should not be judging people from some sense of superiority, when we had no real ability to save ourselves and needed God's grace to be saved. This does not mean that we should ignore when others sin, and accept those sins as "OK". That is not what Jesus did. He did not say "what you have ding is just fine, keep doing that". He said "Go forth and sin no more". Now, do I think that Jesus expects us to literally never sin again? Of course not. The point is that he expects us to work to not sin, to work to avoid sin, and to root out sin so that it can be eliminated as best as possible. If we have done these things, then we are definitely allowed to help others who we see in sin.

I want to add one other thing that I find utterly preposterous, and that is that somehow Jesus did not "push" Hid ideas on others, and so we shouldn't either.... and in fact, we probably shouldn't even talk about them. What? Jesus had a huge ministry. He wasn't sharing cookie recipes. He was teaching people about God. He was teaching them about what sin was. He was teaching them about marriage and how He expected people to live. He said that the 2 greatest Commandments are "Love God, your Lord, with all of your heart, mind, and soul, and to love one another as you do yourself. All of the other Commandments hang upon those 2. If we love others, do we turn away from them, because we might have to inform them that God considers what they are doing to be sin, or that the only way out of sin is through Jesus Christ? Is that really loving others as we love ourselves? I don't think so. I think that Jesus warns us not to harshly judge and sentence people, since we were given forgiveness for free. However, we can codemn sins, while still helping the sinner turn away from the actions that result in death.

Anyway, I wrote too much again. Sorry about that, but I am really passionate about this subject.

If only you knew what you were talking about.

Get a Bible and read it, then post.

Jesus removed those ceremonial laws from us. He also did away with the need for animal, grain, oil, and drink sacrifices. Those were all part of the Old Covenant between God and man. Jesus Christ, and His sacrifice on the cross, created a New Covenant between God and man, one where man is saved not by his own works and deeds, but rather by the love and Grace of God, through Jesus Christ.

so is that not what it says?

Read Ytowns post just before yours, he is nice enough to teach you the Bible. I ain't.

Hebrew law... old testament... we Christians ain't Kosher

ahhh, so we are only using the standard of the new and improved bible.

k.

so how about these:

Corinthians 11:6
"For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."

Sounds pretty straight forward to me. wonder if your wife has her hair covered up?

I'll post the entire thing:

6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. 11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.

So basically, cool for a guy to walk around without a hat or something, but women? nah, better cover up, woman. Looks like the muslims got that part right.

here's another one:

Leviticus 19:28 “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.

Hope none of you guys got tats.

should i keep going? nevermind, i will:

Matthew 5:32
But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Thats like, half the US. I wonder how many christians fall into that category.


and heres' the biggest one i just absolutely LOVE:

matthew 5:42
Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

^^^^^^^^^^^ boy O boy. we have debates on this all the time in EE.

but the bible says so...so guess what 40? give up your crap. i want it. now.

Tell 'em Tex! Darned Kids.