DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... PDR's olive branch/challenge to Christians

I don't get it. Thats the original bible, the closest thing to god's written word you're ever going to get.

Jews are god's chosen people, so why not follow hebrew law?

i mean, y'all seem to want to defend their country so bad.

it's not adding up.

Cuz we are them grown up.

They never got the sequel!

*Sigh* In order:



In the time of this passage, the Israelites had enemies who used such things as part of their idol worship ceremonies. God did not want His people taking part in idol worship, so he did not want them taking part in any opart of such pagan ceremonies. Leviticus is also in the Old Testament, and part of the Old Covenant.

As far as the head covering verses, this had become a matter of dissension in the church at Corinth, and so Paul instructed them to go one way to maintain the peace, rather than becoming divided over such a minor aspect. The head covering was traditional at the time, among certain groups, and was not among others. Paul opens this section of his letter with a section that basically says "I have the right to do anything, but not everything I do is beneficial."

Further the woman is said t come from the man .... he is the "head", but not because he is superior, but rather, because he was first. (Adam) Paul says that the husband should be the head, and thus, symbolically, the head should be uncovered. The wife should submit, and cover her head. Was this a universal demand? I don't believe so. Jesus had many women in His ministry, who preached and prophesied. I believe that this was an attempt to settle pettiness in the church at Corinth, and to allw them to move on to more important matters.



That is precisely what Jesus taught. You are correct in that many Christians have disobeyed Jesus' teachings on this matter. In this you are 100% correct. Jesus said that marriage is one man and one woman, joining together as one flesh, for life. Divorce was allowed, but basically, a divorced person was expected to refrain from sex from that point forward. Now, if their former spouse remarried, then they were guilty of adultery, the one allowable reason for a divorce, and thus the 2nd spouse to remarry was not committing adultery. (at least not in that regard)



There is an inherent expectation of need in there. Someone who was not in need, in that time, would never ask for what you had. Most people would never ask, period. So, if someone asked you for something you have, the need must be dire, and we should do all we can to help those in dire need.

The problem here is that you try to pick put a verse here and a verse there, and the Bible really builds upon itself throughout its books. One verse. taken by itself, is often about as meaningful as a sentence taken at random from the middle of the latest best seller. Maybe you get lucky and find a key, "core" sentence that ties much of a main idea together in one neat package, (like John 3:16, for example) but many other ideas are explored at depth throughout the Bible, and cannot be have their full meaning shown from a sentence here or a sentence there. Many are exploring issues of the time the Books were written. Just as with any letter (and the books Paul wrote were letters to various churches he had started) the letters Paul wrote contained aspects that were specific to the church he wrote to. You need to read more than a few verses to get the full range of people he wrote to, and how these audiences differed.

If you are truly interested, I will try to explain this from a Biblical standpoint. It will have to be later though, as my back is at the end of its endurance, and I have to go lie down.

Please let me know if you really want me to try and explain this as I understand it. If you want me to, I will do my best to explain it.

I've read the verses before.

I had both religions force-fed down my throat growing up. Didn't like it.

the last verse, a person in need.

Thats a lot of people on government assistance that people on this ver board think are lazy and entitled.

the fact is the majority outweight the few that abuse the system. yet religious, mainly republicans, want to cut funding on that.

thats not very christian.

please, because i truly want to understand.

I will respond to this one as best I can after I get back up. I simply must go rest my back for a while now though.

1) I am Christian not Jewish, Jesus gave me a new covenant and 2 commandments... love your Lord God and love your neighbors as you love yourself.

2) God;s chosen people according to the Jews, they have their beliefs and I have mine. Jesus came to bring the word to Jews and Gentiles alike... those that heard (hear) and understood (stand) will come to know and believe by the grace of Jesus and the power of the Holy Spirit

3)Actually I really don't prefer to protect Israel, if it was up to me I would fence the entire Middle east in and let them decide it themselves. It's been their battle for the past what 4000 years?, we are newbies to the party.

H

Christians can and do act in ways to support folks to help them get to a better place in life. I see it daily in my life. Attempting to help others get to a different place in life may sometimes mean encouraging them to stand tall on their own two feet, not providing a perpetual cylce of giving. Being a Christian does not always include perpetual enabling.

I resent continuous analogies of Christians to Republicans. This commentary is simply uninformed and broad stroking with one brush.

To add to what Ytown has said, certain Jewish believers wanted Gentile believers to be circumcised and to follow the law of Moses, Acts 15:20 is the go to verse for this subject. But that we write unto them that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled and from blood.

Near as I can tell, that does away with all the ceremonial laws.

Also, the apostle Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving.

Hope that helps.

While I won't say I "resent" it, I do agree that it is broad stroking - the very thing, swish, you resent when it comes to race.

Just something to think about.

then tell your own people to stop. The main bible thumpers are republican, and constantly tells people they are bible thumpers, and try make policies reflecting that,

Thats like the americans being tired of being called the world police, even though the government constantly puts us in those exact situations to be labeled that.

I didn't add christians and republicans together. y'all did that on your own accord.

read my post i just responded to Cjrae about.

I did. I still think there is a degree of a double standard in your post though.

I Don't.

the majority of republicans currently in congress/senate, if not all, claim to be christians.


so........dunno what to tell you.

Do you have a link to that, or is it just your opinion? Not trying to be snarky. Reason I ask is because my bet would be that the majority of democrats in congress would also claim to be Christian, as would the majority of Independents.

Edited to add that our democrat President also claims Christianity.

and all Blacks are Baptist Democrats.

Maybe double standard, maybe a misunderstanding. "my people" are at a Scout meeting right now. I have no other people. I associate myself with only ideas and concepts I believe in, not groups. That is what has this country in so much turmoil right now. Do not paint others with the same broad brush you so often complain of.

Open minds close divides.

Was that directed at me?

Bb

Not at all arch. Sorry for the confusion. Just my buddy Swish up to his antics once again.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/11/16/faith...113th-congress/

couple years old, but still proof. as its ONLY a couple years old.

a little bit half way down the link, theres a chart that break its down by party affiliation of religions.

the numbers...well, they speak for themselves.

on top of that, a lot of democratic policies don't reflect religious preference over basic civil rights, as we have debated over, and over, and over again in different threads.

you asked, and i delivered.


and this article was hilarious to me for some reason:

The GOP just lost its only non-Christian in Congress

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-...an-in-congress/

This place would be a snooze fest without me,

So, once again you paint with a broad brush. Thought you learned this lesson with the black crime discussions. Doesn't make you a bad individual or associated with them. I don't call criminals "your people" and I might ask you have the same respect for me.

Too funny!!

so are you saying the majority of republicans aren't christians?

cause that link says otherwise.

the majority of blacks aren't criminals.

soo.......dunno what to tell you.

edit:

I'm talking politicians right now, in case that wasn't clear. are you a politician?

I think he was referring to your looks.

B

No, it was the "your people" comment. Glad you find yourself so darn enjoyable. Get on with your bad self! Night! Night!

Thanks for doing that.

To summarize:

56% of congress considers themselves Protestant.

Dem's come in at 42%, Repub's at 69%

D's have 36.5 percent Catholic, R's have 25%.

D's have 12.5% Jewis, R's at 0.

Throw in 1 ir 2 Budhists, and Muslim for the d's.

"Considered thesis"......when?

I know, you're in Cleveland, or on your way, or will be going.

We're still waiting.

He's going to a funeral, give the guy a break.

Yup. Just as he does.

OK, let me think where to start.

How about the beginning.

The Bible says that Satan is a fallen angel. As such, he would have great power, and he attracted to him other fallen angels. Why God did not just destroy them at that time, I do not know, but obviously Satan was important to God's plan.

Anyway, the Bible is filled with stories of man's rebellion against God. At one point, God lived among His chosen people on a daily basis. (God chose His people after looking at the tribes of people scattered around the world) Nonetheless, they are described in their own holy texts as being a "stiff necked" people. They were haughty and stubborn, convinced of their own good, and were unwilling to be led. I have no idea why God would choose such a people to be His people, but according to the Bible, He did.

Anyway, because of the presence of sin in the world, God had to come up with a way to control sin among His people, and to find a way to justify forgiving sins. God is just, so He cannot just say "you're forgiven" without a price having been paid for the offense. So, in the Bible, God came up with a very strict set of Laws for man, designed to root out sin as much as man could manage, and a strict regimen of sacrifices designed to atone for man's sins. God is loving, and God is just. For sin, a price must be paid. God designed this system to help the people of this time, and many of the laws were hundreds or thousands of years ahead of their times as far as blood, waste, and others.

God hates sin, and He did as much as He could, without destroying man's free will, to help man understand sin, and to stay away from sin. He allowed a system for man to atone for his sins, substituting a perfect, flawless, 1st born animal in place of His people, in order that the animal pays the price for their sins. (and that price is death) The animal died in their place, paying the death sentence that their sins earned.

This system continued for many centuries. God stepped back from a constant physical presence among His people, as they rebelled time after time, even after being given the promised land. His people were scattered across the land. The faithful still followed these Laws, eve in captivity. Many others did not, adapting to the gods of other cultures.

Anyway, God, at this point, had given the Israelites His law, and they sometimes followed it, and other times did not.

Now, what was the purpose of the law? The purpose of the law was to show man his sins. It was for man to see his sins. God wants us to know that we sin. Why? because sin offends God, and God wants us, his children to not be offensive to Him. He wants to love us, and He wants us to love Him.

Anyway, this set of laws from God was called God's Covenant. God set forth His laws, and many definitely had a purpose beyond simply theological reasons. Do not go to the bathroom in your camp and dump it outside your tent. This seems to be self evident to us, but even in the Middle Ages, people dumped their human waste out the window into the streets. Why was the plague so virulent? This is a good place to start.

Anyway, back to when God took His people into the promised land, He still required sacrifices, but instead of burning them up, He told His people to eat the sacrifices to God. The law changed, because God decided how for people to atone for their sins should change. Burnt sacrifices stopped, and cooked sacrifices, eaten by the people, while giving thanks to God, took their place. Other ceremonial laws were added by religious leaders over time, and in fact, a massively complicated and convoluted set of religious rules were put in place.

Getting back to why the Old Covenant does not apply, well, even in the Old Testament, God said that He would create a New Covenant for His people.

The book of Jeremiah says, in 31: 31-34: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This is what happened in the New testament. The Lord, Jesus, paid the price so that God could "forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." and could do so without violating His own laws.

In short, God created the 1st Covenant to show His people the way. He created it to show then what sin was. He created it to show then that they could not keep His law, no matter how hard they tried. The Old Covenant had its purpose. It was to show man his sins. It was to show man the hopelessness of being able to earn forgiveness on his own, through his own actions. No man can do enough, under the terms of the Old Covenant, to ever deserve forgiveness. Under the Old Covenant only "unintentional" sins are forgiven. There is no provision for forgiveness of intentional sins,

The New Covenant is absolute forgiveness for those who repent their sins, and accept Jesus as their Lord. It is the ultimate expression of God's love for us. It requires no works from us. We do not earn our salvation. We have a sacrifice, but that sacrifice is the ultimate and sinless sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. His sacrifice is the perfect expression, both of God's love for us, and His just nature. Old Covenant sacrifices only atoned for some sins. The New Covenant sacrifice atones for all sins. (except blasphemy, but those who truly blaspheme would never come to God anyway)

In short, the Old Covenant showed the way to God's forgiveness, even though it was almost impossible for imperfect man to accomplish. It was a deed based method of forgiveness: Do this and you will be forgiven. The New Covenant is the perfect path for everyone to follow. There is nothing that we have to do. We do not have to sacrifice anything. The only thing We have to "do", is accept. All we must do is accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and repent of our sins. It is so simple that many think that it is too simple. However, the New Covenant was made to be easy. Why replace the Old with New, if the New would bring fewer people to God and Salvation?

So, in short, the New Covenant took effect as soon as Christ was sacrificed and died for us, took all of our sins, past, present, and future onto Him as He died, and then was resurrected. We have 2 major Commandments, the most important 2, according to Jesus. Those are to Love God with all of your heart, mind, and soul, and to love one another as you love yourself. All of the rest of life coems from that base. Does a man cheat on his wife if he loves her as he loves himself? Would he intentionally hurt himself in that manner, causing himself deep hurt and injury? Of course not. Would a man steal from himself? Of course not. Would a man who loves God steal? Of course not. The list goes on. This is the New Covenant.

Accept God's forgiveness through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, and repent of your sins. As a result of this, you will be inclined to do 2 things: Love the Lord, your God, with all of your heart, mind, and soul, and love others as you love yourself. The New Covenant does not make us perfect and sinless upon this earth. We are sinful creatures living ina sinful world. We will sin, and more than we ever realize when all of our sins, both thoughts and deeds, are taken into account. However, God will never look upon our sins as long as we accept Jesus. We do not have a license to sin as Christians. IMHO, a man who sins in a structured and consistent manner, living in a sinful manner, and refusing to change, cannot really have been saved. Did such a man truly repent of his sins? However, that is my opinion. Man will slip and sin, but we should not confuse that with living a sin filled life, where sin is at the center. This is how I interpret the Bible.

Anyway, I hope that I did not confuse things with my explanation. If I did, then I hope that you will ask questions.

well, at least now i understand fully why people always pray before eating a meal.

but Jews are still god's chosen people. How could that be since they don't accept him as the son of god?

And Christians are the ones who are judgmental and who stereotype.

Swish.. and anybody else who mocks Christians, I will ask.. when is the last time you were actively involved in a Christian church? When is the last time you worked in a church food pantry that serves the needy or went on a mission trip, taking a week of your own vacation to spend it reroofing a poor persons house in Appalachia instead of hanging out in Vegas or sitting on a sunny beach? When is the last time you went to a juvenile correction facility just to show some kids there (that you don't even really know) that somebody actually cared about them?

Because it happens, it happens every damn day by millions of Christians in this country and around the world and you want to come at me with "Well you eat pork so you aren't even a Christian." Get out of here with that weak .... brother..

I've heard the stories on here... "Oh, I had a bad experience at Catholic school when I was 16 so I never got into being a Christian and I know all about it.." or my parents claimed to be Christian and they weren't nice people."... Then there is the oft cited but never quantified, "Most of the Christians I know...." WEAK.

If left to the secularists, the world would have amazing ice caps, every puppy would be loved, and 50% of the people would be sitting around starving waiting for a compassionate government to provide them food... and reroofing a shack in east Tennessee or building a handicap ramp to a poor disabled person's home would be done 12 years from now and it would cost the tax payers $250,000 from a government contractor.

In the time of Jesus, many Jews did accept Christ as the Messiah, and as their Savior. The Jews will always play a large role in the eternal church, as they are the people that God has taken as his own. However, if you read through the Old Testament, there is one phrase that continually comes up when the Jewish people are described, and that is "stiff necked". What does this mean? It means that they are haughty, and stubborn. God loves them, but He loves all of His children. He expanded His Grace to all people with the New Covenant. In the end times, the Bible says that there will be a mass conversion of Jews to Christ. I don't know if this will be before the 2nd coming, or during. However, God will give His chosen people a chance to accept Christ. Not all will do so. Those who do will be saved,and those who don't will not. (same as with everyone else) However, I believe that the Jewish people will receive a final chance that, perhaps, others will not receive. Jesus will appear in the sky over Jerusalem. Perhaps He will reach out to the Jews there, ad bring them to Him in a way that others may not receive. That is JMHO though. I am yet through all of the Jewish prophesy. I am still working my way through the Bible.

so Jews get to be teachers pets after all.

j/c

This "quick reply" thing needs to go away.

For anyone paying attention, if you reply in the "quick reply" section, it automatically "replies" to the original poster, regardless of who you are actually replying to.

Over the last little bit - since the change - it's been tough to figure out who a person is replying to when they use "quick reply".

Swish - I know who you were replying to......but so many times it gets confusing.

Maybe it's just me.

GOD is one and will put the Jews rigt with himslef on the basis of their faith and will put the Gentiles right through their faith.

So while the jews were shown their way by the laws of moses, the gentiles have those laws written on their hearts and shown by their actions through the grace of Jesus, they do not do away with the law but rather uphold it

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with a lot of it. That said, you have to admit that a large part of the response the various denominations receive is caused by their own acts.

Some denominations bend to the will of the world, changing their basic tenets to match the world, instead of trying to change the world to match what the Bible teaches. Many churches would have no idea if a person was quoting the Bible or the Koran. Many Christians live in a way that unless someone saw them in church on Sunday, they would never have any idea that they are Christians. I know that I absolutely fell under this category, going out drinking, chasing women, gambling, and so forth. I chased things .... I wanted things ...... and yet, somehow, I considered myself a Christian.

I look back now, and am so glad that I had the opportunity to come back to Christ, instead of continuing on the path I was on. I considered myself a Christian, but I certainly was not living a life that would make Jesus proud of me, or that would make Him look at me and say "That is one of my sheep".

I look at the churches today, and many are half to 2/3, or more, empty. Many teach things other than what the Bible says. If someone looks at our churches, what would they see? Would the message be consistent with what the Bible says? If not then how can those who attend these churches rely on their message?

I do think that there are a lot of so-called Christians who have never truly known Christ. Unfortunately, such people will not be saved. We cannot profess to know and love Jesus Christ, and then disregard what He taught. We cannot profess to follow Jesus and then disregard what the Bible teaches. How can we? Maybe we follow some version of Christ that we made up in our own heads, but is that truly Christ? We have people who spent Saturday night in a bar, or doing drugs, and/or having sex, or lying about others, or cheating on their spouse, or ignoring their kids so they can go play, or any number of similar actions, only to show up on Sunday morning professing their love for the Lord. How does that work? Loving the Lord had an expectation of obedience to what He taught us, not as a requirement of being saved, but as a sign of our salvation.

Too many Christians today are caught up in the world more than they are caught up in the Word of God. I wonder how many have even sat down and read a Biblical verse in the past year? A Chapter? A book of the Bible? I bet that number if really small, and I know that I was definitely among them. I just "knew" what was right. I was a fool, and I was completely wrong too. I can see why people look at Christians as they must have looked at me. Many of us do not know our own Holy Book. We assume, but do not know what the Bible teaches. Is it any wonder that those who are not Christians look at us and ask "what's the big deal? Are they really any different?"

This is the image that we, as Christians, have to face, and that we have to overcome. Like it or not, what Swish said, even though in a bit if a crude manner, resonates with a lot of people today. Appearance eventually becomes truth for a great number of people. This is what advertising is built upon. What appearance do many people who call themselves Christian present to the world? Is it one that makes "outside" people look at Christians and think "Those people are living what they preach"?

Now, does that mean that all is lost? Of course not. My church joins with other churches every year and does a mission trip to help people. The church in general, is making huge inroads in Africa. Christianity is growing exponentially there. Hopefully it is Biblically based Christianity.

To me, this is the single biggest problem that the church at large has right now. Do we teach what the Bible teaches, or do we teach what we think people want to hear? Does it matter if we expand church membership if we lead people nowhere?

IMHO, the church needs to do 2 things, and do them immediately.

1st, we need to get back, 100%, to Biblical teaching. We need to move away from traditions that are not Biblically based. We need to get away from messages that have no Biblical basis. Communion is based, directly, on the Bible. Baptism is based, directly, on the Bible. Marriage is based, directly, on the Bible. Much of the rest should go, in favor of teaching the Word of God. In many cases we teach tradition over the Bible. That cannot continue.

2nd, we need to open up our churches to people and our community. I know, we supposedly welcome everyone, but do we really? We need to be so open and welcoming to people that they want to come in. This does not mean that we dilute Christ's message. However, it means that we don't get so caught up in the traditions and ceremony that we scare people off before they can ever really get in the door. We need to be so involved in our communities that people feel that we are their neighbors, and want to come see us. When is the last time we sought out those who have trouble doing things for themselves to help them? Can we seek out homeowners who have trouble affording getting their grass cut, for example, and helping them with that? Do we help those who cannot do so make sure their walks are shoveled? I don't mean just the members of our church, but anyone in need. Isn't that what Jesus would want us to do? Maybe we expand and offer people outside the church the opportunity to join us in these endeavors? WE can then mention that this is the message of Christ brought to life, helping others who we can, because that is what He would want us to do. So many people concentrate on one thing, here or there, as a reason to avoid the church. They never get to know the other hundreds of things they would agree, wholeheartedly with. We need to get that message out. We have failed miserably in this regard lately, and have gotten worse over the past couple of decades on a year by year, month by month basis.

No, but they are, essentially, the "eldest child" of God, and the eldest inherits 1st.