DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Supreme Court: Alabama must allow same-sex marriages, Alabama counties refuse

Why are all you folks responding to someone else through me?

My guess is they are using the "quick reply" box as opposed to clicking the "reply", or "quote" link beneath the persons post that they are replying to.

The "quick reply" box always reverts to the original poster of the thread.

(see, in this reply, under your post, I clicked on the "quote" thingy - and it shows your name.)

Here's something I'd like to bring up regarding the turn this conversation has taken.

Many of the posts in this thread have dealt with the subject of 'sin' as they believe it to be defined by Biblical writings. The crux of these posts read- at least as I understand it- that sin is a willful act that runs counter to the teachings espoused in the Bible. So far, so good.

Then, that definition of 'sin' is applied to members of our community who have found themselves attracted to members of their own gender.

Which brings me to a theological/philosophical/existential dichotomy which I simply cannot reconcile in my own brain.

_______________

Here's where the disconnect occurs:

In some of these posts, I'm left to assume that these posters believe that homosexuality/lesbianism is a lifestyle CHOICE, when all (or at least most) medical and scientific evidence suggests that these orientations are naturally-occurring phenomena in any/all species... and is determined by genetics, biology, cell development, etc.

Is that your assertion? That We CHOOSE the gender, person, physical aesthetic, and prototype that attracts us? If so, then we have a problem with this discussion from the very start.

Just to set the record straight, I believe that gay people are born predisposed to be attracted to others of their same gender. They have no more control over that attraction than I do to various females I have encountered throughout my lifetime- for a sh!tload of various reasons.

Some of 'my crushes' were sexy, voluptuous women. Some were skinny rails who had a nice-looking walk down the halls of my high school. Some were "Big Girls" with sexy-sounding voices. A few had gorgeous-looking jawlines, a slightly-upturned set of eyes, high cheekbones, or a sweetness of manner that suggested that they were 'prospects for procreation/progeny.' Still others were physically unremarkable to other guys in My Pack... but were attractive to me, simply because of how open to me they seemed to be when we talked about everyday things. In short: I've been attracted to women of every size, stripe, color, shape, body-type or ethnic origin... and that attraction hasn't abated in my almost 60 years of life on Planet Earth.

I've been called "weird" all my life (-and I've long since found myself OK with that)... but I truly believe that on the most basic of levels, I'm really no different than almost anybody else. What's always made me "weird"... is my willingness to talk openly about such things, when such talk is important. I have no filter, when it comes to important issues. This seems to be one of those times at DT.

______________



So here's my quandary:

If my God (in his Infinite Wisdom) has seen fit to:

1. create His children (...in His own image) with such a infinite variety of variants that they find attractive

2. make those variants infinitely beautiful, desirable and attractive in an infinite number of ways, both subtle and profound

3. (assumption) allow a percentage of His created population to be genetically predisposed to be attracted to members of their own gender


....then why are we even having this debate?

Why can't we all accept that this is the way He wants His world to be- anomalies and all- and find a way to "live, and let live?"

_______________

I submit this idea to you all for consideration:


The Grand Master has given us all enough basic information to make of this world what we will.... but only JUST enough. What we make of it is entirely up to our own devices. (S)He has given us intellect, a sense of spirituality, a basic blueprint for how to live... and enlightened minds (from our own ranks) to help us along our way.

We've been given Jesus Christ, Mohammed, the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, and many others to show us The Path. History shows us that we have all been taught the same basic lesson. Mankind repeatedly "effs it up" with his own truncated version of what "Truth" seems to be. This has been going on since time immemorial.

I believe that God doesn't want us to be quibbling about trivial matters such as 'sexual orientation.' I believe that He cares for us all on a much deeper (and more universal) level than that.... and that such minutiae is a manifestation of Man's own hubris...

...as he seeks to speak for The Almighty.

Who among us is worthy enough to take on such a mantle? I know I'm not. What makes YOU so certain of God's will that you're ready to tell me (and others) what YOU think He wants?

Are you an authority, just because you've 'joined a cause?'

Pardon me... but I'll take My Master's word directly into my heart from the source. I don't need another chunk of 98.6 to interpret it for me.

My God gave ME a brain and a soul. I'll use them both to discern His message to me, thank you very much.

.02,
Clemdawg.

Unfortunately, if we believe in the Bible, which I do, that is not what it says.

If I made the rules, I probably wouldn't care too much. Sure there are some position that I might still hold, but as far as people being gay, who cares?

However, gay marriage has become a crusade, that I believe is in violation of the Bible's teachings Activists demand that it absolutely be called marriage. There are politicians who support a gay agenda, who have threatened churches with legal action because of their own agenda, who want churches to basically never say anything about the Biblical teachings about homosexuality. In Houston, the Mayor (a lesbian) tried to subpoena sermons of certain churches to make sure they didn't say anything against gay marriage, and she was prepared to go to court against them if they taught anything against gay marriage. Mark my words, I would bet it happen within the next 20 years, that activists try to make it illegal for churches to have Bibles that say anything about homosexuality, and if they want to maintain their tax exempt service, they will have to perform marriages of gay couples.

Some denominations will rush right in, happy to do so. The Lutherans (and others) will allow a person, currently in a gay relationship, to be a pastor in one of their churches. I'm sorry, but I disagree with that just like I would disagree with a male pastor living outside of marriage in a sexual relationship with a woman doing so. Both are sinful decisions, and are choices that a person makes in opposition to what the Bible says. We are all sinners, and we all accidentally sin, but I do not believe that someone living in a pattern of sin, contrary to what the Bible teaches, can be a pastor, responsible for the spiritual life of his church.

So, in the end, if someone does not believe in the Bible, then that's fine. No one forces them to do so. However, I do see more and more why Jesus says in Matthew 7:13-14, Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy1 that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and hthe way is hard that leads to life, and ithose who find it are few.

Few are going to make it to heaven, because they will take the easy way, the way that fits in with the world, and with sin. Jesus Himself tells us this.

Proverbs 14:12 says: There is a way that seems right to a man,but its end is the way to death.

These are warnings to us that we must not follow the ways of the world.

Matthew 7: 21-23 says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The teachings of the Bible are clear, we just need to read them. Unfortunately, many will not. They will choose the wider path, that leads to destruction. If we are Christians, then we need to follow the Bible. Without the Bible, there is no Christianity. How would we know what Jesus taught without it? If we accept the Bible, then we have to accept it all, not just the parts we like.

I am not trying to be a jerk here, but I used to believe as so many others do, that I could take the parts of the Bible I liked, and disregard the rest. I wanted to believe what I already believed, and that's it. However, as I have been studying more and more of the Bible, I can see that I was absolutely wrong. I was right for the world, but not for Jesus Christ. I took the non-confrontational aspects, the parts that didn't require any difficult stands on my part, and accepted those, but threw away the parts of the Bible that were uncomfortable, that seemed to excuse my own patterns of sinfulness. I ignored the parts of the Bible that stood in opposition to the way I lived my life, or the way friends of mine did. . Than God that He saw fit to drag me, kicking and screaming, into His light. We can't remain rooted in sin and expect to somehow be made Holy. We cannot be living in deeply ingrained patterns of sin, rejecting God, and expect Him to just say "That's OK". God is willing to forgive us, but we have to repent of our sins, and turn away from them. We will fail, because we are sinful creatures living in a sinful world, but we have to make that attempt if we want to be saved. We cannot just say "God, please save us", while actively, and even joyously violating His Laws.

Anyway, I wrote too much again. I am passionate about this subject though. I do not want to see any of my friends go to death at judgment, neither my offline friends, nor those who I only know online. At least I have given Biblical information, and people can make up their own minds for themselves as to whether they want to believe it or not, and if they want to check out what I have said to see if it is true or not.

The Bible also disparages the role of a strong woman in the New Testament. No way it could be wrong about anything...or misinterpreted/translation gone haywire.

It is odd. When the government tells its citizens that it will decide what rights they have and which rights they do not have, you no longer have a free society. The Federal government is not the be all and end off of determining what rights you have in the USA. The Constitution is not only for the judges, legislators, and executive branch.

I find it amazing that some believe that Government dictates decide individual liberties in the USA. I will not comply will be seen more and more often as the Federal Government decides to act more as a tyrant than as a protector of its citizens.

The government has forced itself into marriage, the basic building block of a modern society, and like most things, screwed up. Gay couples can live together as they please. However, they do not have the right to use the power of the government to force others to accept them. They do not have the right of tyranny. Are you married to your spouse because the government says you are or are you married to your spouse because you both accept that you are married to each other?

I find nothing in the Constitution that grants anyone the right to marry anyone. That has always been a social construct and never a government construct. Get out of my bedroom, get out of my finances, get out of my healthcare, let me live my life. It is always easiest to experiment with others lives than to get your own in order. Please Mr. and Mrs. Government, stay out of my life.

So you're saying society had the right to take other people's rights away just because they are gay?

And yet you don't view that as tyranny?

Odd.

As long as their cooking and cleaning, I could care less how strong women are.

How did you get that out of what he wrote?

I'm also mind boggled as to what the biblical answer is to people who are trans gendered.

this should be a good one.

I don't see how wanting to have the same rights as everyone else equates to "a gay agenda".

There are reasons for everything in the Bible. I cannot really answer generalities though. I can research answers, just like anyone can.

As far as translations, we have manuscripts that go back to the 1st century AD, and while there are some questions about punctuations here and there, and while some may look at a word and misinterpret what the writers meant, (like Sheol and Gehenna becoming hell) there are original manuscripts out there that can be reinterpreted, and there are study Bibles that give a great deal of background information, as well as certain things that were translated one way in the past, that might not necessarily be the intent. Further, the audience a letter was written to has to be taken into account. If the Apostle Paul were alive today, and working to build Jesus' church here on earth, and he went to, say, the poorest neighborhood on earth to establish a church, and then went to Vegas, and then went to the very richest community in America, he would address them each differently. It is no different in the Bible. Corinthians was written to those who lived in Corinth. They were previously idolaters, and used sex in their worship ceremonies. Do you think that may have colored how Paul instructed them?

In all honesty, I have no idea. (I assume you mean those who are born with both male and female organs) I would guess that God would make special consideration for such a person born in that condition, but I honestly cannot answer how He would treat such a situation.

You're gonna have to explain yourself here. I've been married to a strong woman for going on 20 years this coming December and I don't find this in the Bible at all.

Hermaphrodite: individual born with both sets of organs male and female

Trans gender: body and brain opposite, boy body and girl brain thought process or girl body, boy thought process

Both created and loved by God!

It is not "the same rights" though. Not really. It is creating a new arrangement that we will also call marriage.

Any man has the right to marry any woman, as long as they agree that they want to be married, and are legally able to be married, being of legal age, and so on. Similarly any woman has the right to marry any man she chooses.

Gay people do not want that choice, so they cannot partake of marriage. Marriage is, and has traditionally been, 1 man and 1 woman.

I outlined what I see as one major danger of approving gay marriage, the slippery slope, and gave an example of why I see it as dangerous.

I realize that I am in the minority now. I am also in the minority in that I do not believe that people should marry and divorce like they were changing underwear instead of spouses. I think that once a couple is married, then they should do everything possible to keep the marriage together, and make it a successful and happy marriage. If they are not willing to do so, then they should not get married. I do not think that we should be all put pushing children into sexual relationships that they are not ready for, with the cultural pressures exerted upon them. I do not think that people should cheat on their spouses, or go out and treat sex like a sport, where they play as often as they can, as long as they don't suffer a season ending injury. Our culture has taken the 10 Commandments and has tried to destroy them.

You shall have no other gods before me. Well, we have pretty much trashed that one as a society.

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them. Yep, even churches blow this one.

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Yep, this one is blown to pieces too.

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. This one is gone too.

Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you. This one is broken all the time.

You shall not murder. This one gets blown to pieces all the time in our culture. Jesus said that this is not only the physical act of murdering someone, but also the mental/spiritual act of wishing ill on others. We are all guilty of this at one time or another.

You shall not commit adultery. Umm .... yeah. Shattered into pieces, and we expect people to commit adultery anymore. It seems like 80-90% of movies and TV shows these days show sexual relationships outside of marriage, showing these not only as acceptable, but desirable.

You shall not stealThis one is not only tied into physical theft, but also covetousness. Cheating also falls under this Commandment. I would say that most of us have broken this one.

You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. Umm ... yeah ... we don't do so good with this one either. Heard a good rumor lately?

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” Do we covet? Advertising today is built on coveting.

So, out of the 10 Commandments, how many do we really obey?

So now we want to destroy the meaning of marriage, the marriage of which Jesus spoke of in the Bible. It is just one more step on the path to destruction we are on.

The "immorality agenda" has helped destroy moral behavior in America today, and has made immorality acceptable, and even desirable.

We then accept gay marriage. Once that is accomplished, then we get politicians like the lesbian Mayor of Houston who tried to prosecute churches for teaching that gay marriage was not acceptable within the scriptures. I ask again, comparing this society to where ir was 100 years ago morally, and comparing it to today, how far have we fallen? I would say that we have set speed records on the slippery slope. Next is gay marriage, and once that is legalized, how long before activists try to get any reference to homosexuality as being a sin removed from Bibles everywhere, and making it a Constitutional issue that churches be required to marry gay couples? I give it 20 years, tops. I hope I am wrong, but I wouldn't put my money on it.

Sorry, I didn't look it up, and I should ahve before answering,

I do not believe that God would want a man to become a woman, or visa versa. I would think that this would fall under the same general category as homosexuality.

You are right that God loves us all, but he absolutely does NOT love all that we do.

No, it's allowing them to the same rights and benefits as those who are married. It's allowing them the same rights as heterosexual without preference to sexual orientation.



As once slavery was traditional. As was discrimination against people of color. Your assertion is that because marriage has been considered between one man and one woman, this makes it acceptable to discriminate against same sex couples because you simply have religious views to the contrary. That in no way equates t the fact you are discriminating against people that believe differently than yourself.



Nobody can destroy your faith or beliefs. Nobody can destroy my marriage. Nobody can force anyone to accept anything. Only some can inflict their own personal beliefs and religious conviction upon the masses.

Nothing anyone else does will change anything about y beliefs. It has zero impact upon me. Many of the same arguments you make were used against interracial marriage. People have used the Bible and religion to try to compel everyone to live in a manner that follows their religious beliefs.

Inflicting your beliefs upon others has no Biblical reference which make that acceptable. In one breath you have no problem saying people must accept Christ to be saved, then in the next breath state that you must cram the teachings of Christ down their throats through legislation and defining laws based on tradition and the Bible.

The rest of your post is all about preaching the bible. Something that has a place in the life of all who believe as you do but not forced upon everyone else.

you just do not get it.

as much as i respect you, i'm glad people like you and Razor don't actually run the country. i'm glad the majority of the world is progressing in social issues.

Should someone accept their sexual physiology and be unhappy, but accept it without complaining to earn God's love?

You can't earn God's love. You don't need to, and believe me, if complaining were a 'requirement'-we'd all be done and I guarantee you I would.

My guess on a subject like this would be, if the person who has these struggles still believes that the Bible is true gets with God in prayer and asks to be delivered of these struggles they will be.

Anyone who says that homosexuality is ok because people are genetically born that way are only using a man-made excuse to justify their sins, nothing more.

Everyone is born sinful: "Surely I was sinful from birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" Psalm 51:5. Everyone is born with a sinful nature, and everyone sins. That doesn't make it ok to throw up your hands and say, "Well, I'm going to sin. It's how I was born. No use fighting it."

Many studies have shown that some people are genetically predisposed to addictive behaviors. Does that make it ok for them to become alcoholics? Gamblers? Drug addicts? No, it doesn't. So, some people are genetically predisposed to be homosexual...does that make it ok?

Please, explain to me why one is a sin, and one is not? And this isn't just directed at you Clem, but anyone else who uses this line of reasoning. Please be careful with your responses though, because you know a rebuttal will be coming.

And I hope that people don't think I hate homosexuals. I don't; God loves all sinners, and I am definitely in that category. We are all sinners, and each of us has our own temptations that we must deal with. The problem happens when a person does not think they sin, does not repent, and is even proud of their sinful behavior.

And Ytown, I know it's fun for society to bash on the Lutherans, but don't lump us all together like that, haha! j/k

Mm

First, rebutt all you want. There is no intimidation on this board.

Second, who says homosexuals do not feel they are sinners? Perhaps they feel they are sinners as we all are. Perhaps they do repent, perhaps they do ask for forgiveness. How do you know? You do not stand in judgement of them or for that matter, anyone else. There is only one judgement of a soul and if we are writing and posting on this board, we have never experienced that divinity.

As an educator when I see an obviously gay kindergarten student asked by another why he plays with dolls and prefers "girl activity" reply simply through the eyes of a child "I was made this way" I know he is telling the truth. This child had absolutely no sexual point of reference or sexual awareness. Is he sinning? As a product made in love by our Lord and Savior he is living accordingly. If God made him how is it wrong?

Oh, and by the way, if YTown hasn't convinced many of us on this board with his well thought out posts and biblical references, I sincerely doubt there is any rebuttal you can provide that will change the mind of this strong willed, German, staunch , LUTHERAN!

Really? I am pretty sure that it just tells her to put her husband and family first before seeking out anything else. What scripture leads you to say women should not be strong? The bible does give different roles for women from men in some things but never to be weak. A strong woman is a blessing to a husband. Just because men and women are supposed to fill certain roles in a family doesn't make one or the other roles less valid or important. There are reasons for that but thats a whole nother topic for another very long reeducation.

I think the real disconnect other than if you believe there is a God or not is what you think mankind was created for. It seems many of you think man was made for our own benefit. We were not.

The purpose of your life was not given to you for the sake of self indulgence. You were created in order to bring glory to God. That's it.

Many have the mistaken idea that God created everyone to go to heaven or burn in hell forever. He did not. He created us all with a CHANCE to go to heaven or choose not to go and instead be obliterated. You have the free will he created you with to make the choice in how you wish to live.

God gave us the Bible so we would know how to live our life in a way that will get us into heaven. He is not forcing you to take his gift of eternal life. You are free to live a very short life filled with all the sin you want. You're just not going to go to heaven if you refuse to obey him.

The circumstances of your birth or even of your life don't matter. What matters is if you will accept that you have lived a life with sin. Say you're sorry for doing so and then OBEY his laws after being forgiven.

You are given this one chance to earn eternity or oblivion. You're not a slave. You get to choose. Don't blame God because you choose to live a life for the sake of your flesh instead of for the benefit of your soul. We all have different trials and tribulations to face and it is always up to US to make our own choices.

He didn't create anyone to burn in a hell forever. Still, he will only allow those that follow his will to exist forever with him. Those will be but a very few of the very, very many. Not because he didn't want mankind but because some of mankind didn't want him.

Don't blame me for wanting my children's souls to find heaven instead of oblivion. We have but this one life to get that choice right and everything I am to the core of my being wants my children in heaven with me when I move on from this world to the next.

So the disconnect is whether you are living for the sake of your flesh or for the sake of your soul. That choice is up to each and every one of us.

Bb

Great point Raor. I believe most of us live for sake of our souls. However, your logic is flawed in the purpose of marriage. Given your suggestion that marriage is intended for procreation only, my spouse and I would have no purpose in our 18 year marriage.

You see, God gave us no biological children. Through prayer and much support and consultation with pur Pastor, we decided to adopt. We were blessed with the most amazing son. We couldn't have asked for more and many times have jokingly doubted we could never have done it as well as our God did.

Does this make our marriage purposeless? I think not! This was His plan and we lived it. In my opinion, this what others with crosses to bear do as well.

You might not have gave birth to children but you wanted to and you tried it was therefore a purpose of your marriage. There was always a chance even if it didn't work out that way. I'm sorry that you were not blessed in that way.

You have chosen to adopt which is wonderful! That is precisely what many have done over thousands and thousands of years in the same situation to continue and establish their family.

Keep in mind I am speaking of a legal reason for marriage not an emotional one.

Two men or two women are not a husband and wife capable of making children even by accident thus have no reason to be established or recognized by the government as married. There are no possible blood ties to pass an inheritance to or to protect.

I think a civil partnership should be the title given to unmarriable people who wish to be seen as a single family unit.

For instance, say my best friend and I are living together and a friend is in an accident and his children are left without a family. Why can't we form a partnership to take responsibility for them? What if it were my brother instead of my best friend? Why MUST it be called marriage? It is not the same thing as a man and a woman getting married to create a family. It's still noble and great but not the same thing.

Call it a "civil partnership" instead and I think it will be accepted much, much easier and with little to no conflict. I would have no problem with it whether strangers or brothers or sisters doing it. Let them have all the same benefits tax and other wise too.

Mm

No need to feel sorry. We are blessed beyond belief.

I can respect your opinion. That is all we are capable of here.....our opinion.

I would say most homosexuals do not believe that homosexuality is a sin. Some very well could believe that it is a sin, and are actively trying not to sin, and are truly repentant. Nothing wrong there. However, I'm pretty sure we can agree that most are not, yes? It's not like that has any bearing on whether it is a sin or not.

Is the little boy playing with dolls sinning? No, of course not. Playing with dolls is not a homosexual trait, and I'm pretty sure most homosexuals would be upset that you stereotype them like that. However, if it were possible to have sexual desires at that age, and he had them for another student, boy or girl (lusting), he would be sinning, even if he didn't know it was wrong.

God did not make us perfect...that was the whole point of my first post. I know that's a hard concept to understand, that a perfect God made an imperfect creation. We ARE born sinful; it is stated many times in God's Word. Either you believe that or you don't. All of us are born with a sinful nature. What do you think it means when the Bible says "sins of the flesh?"

Not knowing that something is sinful is not an excuse to sin. Hypothetical example: a remote society living in a rainforest somewhere. They live according to their primal instincts; in their culture it is ok for men to rape women without their consent. Are they sinning?

I know these are tough questions to think about. Is it fair that some people might go their whole lives without hearing about God or Jesus or how he paid for our sins or knowing they are sinning and not be saved? It is impossible for man to understand the reasoning of God. But that just makes it more important to bring God's Word to all the people in the world who haven't heard it.

And also, you never really answered my question from my first post. And there is a correct and as to why one is viewed as a sin, and one is not. And, I'm not hoping to convince anyone of anything. Most people think those who think homosexuality is a sin are close-minded dimwits, but fail to see the flaws in their own arguments.

[quote]However, if it were possible to have sexual desires at that age, and he had them for another student, boy or girl (lusting), he would be sinning, even if he didn't know it was wrong./quote]

No. Not at that age.

[quote]Hypothetical example: a remote society living in a rainforest somewhere. They live according to their primal instincts; in their culture it is ok for men to rape women without their consent. Are they sinning?/quote]

Yes, we've been going back & forth on this type of thing before about people 'living up to the light they have', we all have a conscience, and the people in this example are violating their conscience.

That's not really a good argument though. Let's look at it this way: the society creates a false idol/god influenced by their human reasoning. Nothing in their conscience would be telling them this is wrong. Is it still a sin? Like I said, these are hard questions to wrap your head around.

No, what I am saying is that the right to marry is a state issue. Unless you believe the government is the granter of rights, you cannot believe that marriage is a right. It is a social contract between two people, tied closely to religious beliefs, in order to establish social norms for procreation and the raising of children. All the LEGAL issues related to marriage are government constructs... they can only be rights if you believe the government is the granter of rights. I do not.

Uh......The Bill of Rights?

There are numerous legal issues that have zero to do with religious principles, but the most important in this issue is denying legal status to some while granting it to others.

There is a difference between religious marriage and "government" marriage. People can get married at the courthouse and be completely void of any religion and still have 20 kids. People can get married at a church and never even want children.

Trying to say that the purpose of marriage is procreation is ridiculous. People can have children outside of marriage and still provide a perfectly normal and productive upbringing. People can be married and provide a terrible upbringing for children.

Everyone in this country should have the right to marry anyone else of their choosing as long as both parties are of age and agree. This does not mean that religious institutions should be required to hold the ceremony, or even acknowledge it, but it should be recognized through the government and provide the legal benefits of being married.

What I never understand is that 2 gay people being married has ZERO effect on anyone else's marriage or life, yet people still feel they are entitled to deny them the right of being married. What gives anyone the right to deny another human being as long as no one is negatively effected?

Nn

Orange, you have a point about stereotype. However, I knew this young man was gay in kindergarten. He had excessive feminine traits. Because this young man was the son of a close friend of mine, I never said anything to his family. That is not for me.

18 years later, the young man came out to his family. He is a successful individual and he is gay.

I neglected to put this information in my original post. I was not stereotyping, I knew. It just makes no difference to me. I see people as people, for the good in them and what they offer to society.

Is your opinion that the one (homosexuality) is a sin and the others (addiction, etc.) are not? You may think there is only one correct answer in the world according to orange. Homosexuality is not a choice. Therefore, God created this human and God loves this sinner........just like the rest of us. It is not for us to judge and tell gays they must repent any more than it is up to us to tell folks who may participate in sexual practices that are considered sin in the Bible that they must repent and ask forgiveness. But, we most likely would not know about that, would we?

My church is currently debating this issue and whether or not they will conduct same sex marriages. I am a strong supporter of same sex marriage after appropriate counseling, as heterosexual couples go through, so the marriage is blessed for all the right reasons. Our organist is gay. He is a superior human being and is contemplating marriage. I will welcome him and go to communion beside him to ask for my forgiveness just as he will. What is the difference?

You can't call yourself a church of God if you don't uphold his beliefs or teachings just because you find them inconvenient. If you want a country club to feel good about yourselves fine but don't call yourself a church of God.

You either live for the flesh or for the spirit. There is no middle ground.

Good people can do bad things. That doesn't mean those bad things should be supported or approved of. Churches that act like that are just leading their members astray from the truth and the light of God.

"15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

In other words, if you can't follow God's will and his teachings as a church then he will have nothing to do with you. A church is not there for the sinner to be made comfortable and told whatever they do is OK. It's there to teach the bible and uphold God's teachings. It is a temple of God and should be treated as holy and sacred ground. Not a freaking social club where you're scared of God's word offending someone because they are living in sin and refuse to obey God's laws.

People wonder why I have so little use for religion. It's because it is corrupted by men and the sinners running it.

The Bible is God's commandment and will. Ignore it at the peril of your souls.

Your oganist has a very tough cross to bear. Help him carry it. Don't tell him to put it down and that it doesn't matter. Help him live for his spirit instead of his flesh.

The Bible is very clear how a church should operate so you have nothing to debate:

1 Corinthians 5:1-13King James Version (KJV)

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

If your going to call yourself a Church of God then start by obeying him first.

I'm confused by this part...you seemed to say that homosexuality is not a sin, but then you go on to say that we should not ask them to repent of their sin of homosexuality. So, is homosexuality a sin or not?

It's my view that homosexuality and addiction to drugs, gambling, etc. are both sins. And homosexuality is no different than any other sin; I've never said otherwise. They are not worse people, they are just sinners, just like me or you. I just fail to see how homosexuality is any different than porn addiction or fantasizing about your neighbor's wife...all of them are sins of sexual perversion and should be treated the same. The only reason society views one as a sin (adultery) and thinks the other is not a sin (homosexuality) is because that's what society thinks is right. Well, I'm sorry, but if you are a believer, society does not get to decide what is right and wrong, only God and His Word does.

The problem isn't that homosexuality is a sin. A homosexual would be welcomed by Jesus and should be welcomed by His Church. Like I said earlier, the problem happens when people do not believe that homosexuality is a sin, do not repent, and continue on in this path.

It is not our duty to judge other people, but for us to lovingly ask them to repent of their sins? Yes, it is:

“If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17

Yes, the Church should even remove those who continue unrepentant in their sin in the hope that it will open their eyes and lead to true repentance.

"Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently." Galatians 6:1

You being a Lutheran, should know this most of all. One of the main reasons Luther left the Catholic Church was over the Office of the Keys. Catholics believed only the pope and his bishops could use the keys, while Luther believed all members of the Church were given the Keys to forgive a repentant sinner who confesses their sins or bind the sins of the unrepentant. From his Small Catechism:



So, in conclusion, homosexuality is a sin, but homosexuals should be welcome in the Church as long as they are truly repentant of their sin, just like porn addicts, adulterers, or any other sinner. However, most people do not believe it is a sin or make up excuses for it, aided by the pressures of society.

Let me get this straight. Homosexuals should be welcomed in the church as long as they stop loving the person they love. If they can't stop loving who they love they're to be cast out. So as long as they live a life unloved, God will love them. Awesome.
Sounds like a welcoming place.

Since we are ALL sinners, I am beginning to feel this thread is a bit hypocritical. If you and I may ask for forgiveness for activities in our lives so may anyone else...that is all I'm saying. IDo not put words in my mouth.

How can you, or anyone else be comfortable pointing out the sins of others when we are all guilty of sinning in our lifetime. A bit hypocritical to me. That's all.

Yes, all sinners are welcome in God's house.........all sinners, even you and I.

H[quote=Razorthorns]You can't call yourself a church of God if you don't uphold his beliefs or teachings just because you find them inconvenient. If you want a country club to feel good about yourselves fine but don't call yourself a church of God.

You either live for the flesh or for the spirit. There is no middle ground.

Good people can do bad things. That doesn't mean those bad things should be supported or approved of. Churches that act like that are just leading their members astray from the truth and the light of God.

"15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."

In other words, if you can't follow God's will and his teachings as a church then he will have nothing to do with you. A church is not there for the sinner to be made comfortable and told whatever they do is OK. It's there to teach the bible and uphold God's teachings. It is a temple of God and should be treated as holy and sacred ground. Not a freaking social club where you're scared of God's word offending someone because they are living in sin and refuse to obey God's laws.

People wonder why I have so little use for religion. It's because it is corrupted by men and the sinners running it.

The Bible is God's commandment and will. Ignore it at the peril of your souls.

Your oganist has a very tough cross to bear. Help him carry it. Don't tell him to put it down and that it doesn't matter. Help him live for his spirit instead of his flesh.

The Bible is very clear how a church should operate so you have nothing to debate:

1 Corinthians 5:1-13King James Version (KJV)

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

If your going to call yourself a Church of God then start by obeying him first.


Well, our Pastor is in the midst of the debate supporting gay marriage.