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http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-uss-lib...-states/5431151 Global Research




An Attempt to Drag America Into Israel’s War

On June 8, 1967, Israel attacked the American naval vessel USS Liberty in international waters, and tried to sink it.

After checking the Liberty out for 8 hours – and making 9 overflights with Israeli jets, within 200 feet … close enough for the pilots and the sunbathing Liberty sailors on deck to waive at each other.

Yet the Israelis attacked it with Mirage fighter jets, torpedoes and napalm. The USS Liberty suffered 70% casualties, with 34 killed and 174 wounded.

The Israeli attack spanned two hours … as long as the attack on Pearl Harbor. The air attack alone lasted approximately 25 minutes: consisting of more than 30 sorties by approximately 12 separate planes using napalm, cannon, and rockets which left 821 holes in the ship. The Israelis fired 30mm cannons and rockets into the boat.

Following the attack by fighter jets, three Israeli motor torpedo boats torpedoed the ship, causing a 40 x 40 foot wide hole in her hull, and machine-gunning firefighters and stretcher-bearers attempting to save their ship and crew. More than 3,000 machine-gun bullet holes were later counted on the Liberty’s hull.

After the attack was thought to have ended, three life rafts were lowered into the water to rescue the most seriously wounded. The Israeli torpedo boats returned and machine-gunned these life rafts at close range. This was followed by the approach of two large Israeli Army assault helicopters filled with armed commandos carrying what appeared to be explosive satchels (they departed after hovering over the ship for several minutes, making no attempt to communicate).

The Israelis clearly knew it was an American ship, tried to sink it, and tried to frame the Egyptians for the attack, as shown by the following evidence:

(1) The Liberty was flying a huge, brand new American flag. The flag was 5-by-8 feet. The weather conditions were ideal to ensure the flag’s easy observance and identification, because it was clear and sunny, with a wind-speed which made for a constant rippling motion in the flag. After the flag was shot up by the jets, the Liberty’s crew replaced it with a giant 7-by-13 foot American flag, which flew during the entire duration of the attack.

(2) The Liberty had a unique profile and didn’t look like any other boat, since it had more and bigger antennas – including large, high-tech dishes and giant towers – than any other boat in the world (it was an NSA spy ship).

(3) The Liberty was marked with uniquely American numbering and colors in front.

(4) The Israeli pilots shot out the Liberty’s communications equipment first, and specifically jammed the ship’s emergency radio signal … unique to American naval vessels in the 6th Fleet. The ships from other fleets and other nations used different frequencies, which the Israelis did not jam.

(5) The Israelis used unmarked fighter jets and unmarked torpedo boats during the attack.

(6) Recently-declassified radio transcripts between the Israeli attack forces and ground control show that – at least 3 times – an Israeli fighter jet pilot identified the craft as American, and asked whether ground control was sure he should attack. Ground control repeatedly said, yes, attack the vessel.

(7) The Israeli torpedo boats methodically destroyed all of the Liberty’s liferafts one by one (which is a war crime).

(8) The only reason the Israelis did not successfully sink the Liberty and kill all of its crewmen was that one sailor duck-taped together antennae – and took many bullet wounds in the process – which enabled an emergency SOS to get out from the Liberty to American 6th Fleet.

(9) The Israelis later claimed that they mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian vessel. But the Egyptian ship – the El Quseir – was an unarmed 1920s-era horse carrier out of service in Alexandria, four times smaller than the Liberty, which bore virtually no resemblance to the Liberty.

(10) President Lyndon Johnson believed the attack was intentional and he leaked his opinion to Newsweek.

Other high-level Americans agreed:

“I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation…. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn’t believe them then, and I don’t believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.”
–U.S. Secretary of State Dean Rusk

“The evidence was clear. Both Adm. Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack … was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew…. Not only did the Israelis attack the ship with napalm, gunfire, and missiles, Israeli torpedo boats machine-gunned three lifeboats that had been launched in an attempt by the crew to save the most seriously wounded — a war crime….”
–Affidavit of U.S. Navy Captain Ward Boston, the legal counsel for the official investigation into the Liberty attack

“There is compelling evidence that Israel’s attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew.”
–Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 14 January 2004

“Israeli authorities subsequently apologized for the incident, but few in Washington could believe that the ship had not been identified as an American naval vessel…. I have yet to understand why it was felt necessary to attack this ship or who ordered the attack.”
–C.I.A. Chief Richard Helms

“Yet the ultimate lesson of the Liberty attack had far more effect on policy in Israel than in America. Israel’s leaders concluded that nothing they might do would offend the Americans to the point of reprisal. If America’s leaders did not have the courage to punish Israel for the blatant murder of American citizens, it seemed clear that their American friends would let them get away with almost anything.”
–George Ball, U.S. Undersecretary of State at the time, The Passionate Attachment

(Sources: Congressional record and videos shown below.)

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer – former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff – chaired a non-governmental investigation into the attack on the USS Liberty in 2003. The committee – which included General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, former Judge Advocate General of the Navy, and former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia James E. Akins – held Israel to be culpable and suggested several theories for Israel’s possible motives, including the desire to blame Egypt and bring the U.S. into the Six Day War.

Indeed, President Lyndon Johnson dispatched nuclear-armed fighter jets to drop nuclear bombs on Cairo, Egypt. They were only recalled at the last minute, when Johnson realized that it was the Israelis – and not the Egyptians – who had fired on the Liberty.

An NSA report from 1981 found:

A persistent question relating to the Liberty incident is whether or not the Israeli forces which attacked the ship knew that it was American . . . not a few of the Liberty’s crewmen and [deleted but probably “NSA’s G Group”] staff are convinced that they did. Their belief derived from consideration of the long time the Israelis had the ship under surveillance prior to the attack, the visibility of the flag, and the intensity of the attack itself.

Speculation as to the Israeli motivation varied. Some believed that Israel expected that the complete destruction of the ship and killing of the personnel would lead the U.S. to blame the UAR [Egypt] for the incident and bring the U.S. into the war on the side of Israel . . . others felt that Israeli forces wanted the ship and men out of the way.

Allegedly:

Scouring the Liberty records in the LBJ Library in Texas, Ennes [an officer on the bridge of the Liberty] stumbled upon a smoking gun – a one-page memo of the minutes of the 303 Committee [the U.S. National Security Council group that reviewed sensitive intelligence operations] held in advance of the war in April 1967. The Committee consisted of a handful of top level intelligence and government officials who examined black operations and devised plausible deniability for the executive branch in the event of public discovery of an attack. The memo relates to a clandestine joint US-Israeli effort to blame Egypt for the sinking of the Liberty.

We haven’t yet located a copy of the alleged memo, and so we’re not sure we believe this explosive claim. But – given that Israel (1) used unmarked jets and ships, (2) destroyed the Liberty’s communication equipment and then jammed the Liberty’s emergency distress channel, and (3) destroyed all liferafts – the logical inference is that Israel intended to frame Egypt for the attack, and didn’t want the Liberty’s crew to be able to tell the world what really happened.

The following must-watch documentaries from the BBC, Al Jazeera and an independent producer provide first-hand interviews with the crew of the USS Liberty which prove that this was a failed false flag attack:








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I doubt that you'll have many willing to touch this thread. It's not something they will want to hear.


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Wow.

I'd use the word "unbelievable" if I hadn't already seen what other things human beings are capable of.


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Bro you've been trying to enlighten folks on this topic since the old boards.

They don't want to listen, because it goes against their agenda of "protect Israel because it's the popular thing to do".


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A very tragic day in history for the men of the Liberty. These brave men gave their lives in service of our Country and the survivors have wondered all these years where the justice is, where is the American response, where is the uproar over their slaughter. God bless them all.

I find it frightening when the words Black Ops are involved. I find it amazing that President Johnson ordered Nukes to Cairo. I know it was the middle of the Cold War between the Western World and the Soviet Union. Israel was our ally while Egypt and the rest of the Arab world were allied with the Soviets.
I am left wondering if the US and Israel acted together(Black ops) to create a situation to draw us into a wider war in the middle east. Like may have been done in the Gulf of Tonkin incident in Vietnam August 4 1964.

Only God knows how many innocent lives were lost or sacrificed during the Cold War that we will never even hear about, due to secrecy.

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This is one thing I really don't know a whole lot about.

It seems that there is more than one side to the events of that day though. It is obvious that things that should not have happened took place, but little agreement over what actually happened. People say that they have heard the tapes of the events, but the NSA says that no such tapes exist.

It certainly appears as if there was a lot of stuff covered up, to what ends I really can't say.

New revelations in attack on American spy ship - Chicago Tribune
http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html#page=4

Bryce Lockwood, Marine staff sergeant, Russian-language expert, recipient of the Silver Star for heroism, ordained Baptist minister, is shouting into the phone.

"I'm angry! I'm seething with anger! Forty years, and I'm seething with anger!"

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy's most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they're also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.

"They tried to lie their way out of it!" Lockwood shouts. "I don't believe that for a minute! You just don't shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!"

Four decades later, many of the more than two dozen Liberty survivors located and interviewed by the Tribune cannot talk about the attack without shouting or weeping.

Their anger has been stoked by the declassification of government documents and the recollections of former military personnel, including some quoted in this article for the first time, which strengthen doubts about the U.S. National Security Agency's position that it never intercepted the communications of the attacking Israeli pilots -- communications, according to those who remember seeing them, that showed the Israelis knew they were attacking an American naval vessel.

The documents also suggest that the U.S. government, anxious to spare Israel's reputation and preserve its alliance with the U.S., closed the case with what even some of its participants now say was a hasty and seriously flawed investigation.

In declassifying the most recent and largest batch of materials last June 8, the 40th anniversary of the attack, the NSA, this country's chief U.S. electronic-intelligence-gatherer and code-breaker, acknowledged that the attack had "become the center of considerable controversy and debate." It was not the agency's intention, it said, "to prove or disprove any one set of conclusions, many of which can be drawn from a thorough review of this material," available at http://www.nsa.gov/liberty .

An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, Mark Regev, called the attack on the Liberty "a tragic and terrible accident, a case of mistaken identity, for which Israel has officially apologized." Israel also paid reparations of $6.7 million to the injured survivors and the families of those killed in the attack, and another $6 million for the loss of the Liberty itself.

But for those who lost their sons and husbands, neither the Israelis' apology nor the passing of time has lessened their grief.

One is Pat Blue, who still remembers having her lunch in Washington's Farragut Square park on "a beautiful June afternoon" when she was a 22-year-old secretary for a law firm.

Blue heard somebody's portable radio saying a U.S. Navy ship had been torpedoed in the eastern Mediterranean. A few weeks before, Blue's husband of two years, an Arab-language expert with the NSA, had been hurriedly dispatched overseas.

As she listened to the news report, "it just all came together." Soon afterward, the NSA confirmed that Allen Blue was among the missing.

"I never felt young again," she said.

Aircraft on the horizon

Beginning before dawn on June 8, Israeli aircraft regularly appeared on the horizon and circled the Liberty.

The Israeli Air Force had gained control of the skies on the first day of the war by destroying the Egyptian air force on the ground. America was Israel's ally, and the Israelis knew the Americans were there. The ship's mission was to monitor the communications of Israel's Arab enemies and their Soviet advisers, but not Israeli communications. The Liberty felt safe.

Then the jets started shooting at the officers and enlisted men stretched out on the deck for a lunch-hour sun bath. Theodore Arfsten, a quartermaster, remembered watching a Jewish officer cry when he saw the blue Star of David on the planes' fuselages. At first, crew members below decks had no idea whose planes were shooting at their ship.

Thirty-four died that day, including Blue, the only civilian casualty. An additional 171 were wounded in the air and sea assault by Israel, which was about to celebrate an overwhelming victory over the combined armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and several other Arab states.

For most of those who survived the attack, the Six-Day War has become the defining moment of their lives.

Some mustered out of the Navy as soon as their enlistments were up. Others stayed in long enough to retire. Several went on to successful business careers. One became a Secret Service agent, another a Baltimore policeman.

Several are being treated with therapy and drugs for what has since been recognized as post-traumatic stress disorder. One has undergone more than 30 major operations. Another suffers seizures caused by a piece of shrapnel still lodged in his brain.

After Bryce Lockwood left the Marines, he worked construction, then tried selling insurance. "I'd get a job and get fired," he said. "I had a hell of a time getting my feet on the ground."

With his linguistic background, Lockwood could have had a career with the NSA, the CIA, or the FBI. But he was too angry at the U.S. government to work for it. "Don't talk to me about government!" he shouts.

U.S. Navy jets were called back

An Israeli military court of inquiry later acknowledged that their naval headquarters knew at least three hours before the attack that the odd-looking ship 13 miles off the Sinai Peninsula, sprouting more than 40 antennas capable of receiving every kind of radio transmission, was "an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy," a floating electronic vacuum cleaner.

The Israeli inquiry later concluded that that information had simply gotten lost, never passed along to the ground controllers who directed the air attack nor to the crews of the three Israeli torpedo boats who picked up where the air force left off, strafing the Liberty's decks with their machine guns and launching a torpedo that blew a 39-foot hole in its starboard side.

To a man, the survivors interviewed by the Tribune rejected Israel's explanation.

Nor, the survivors said, did they understand why the American 6th Fleet, which included the aircraft carriers America and Saratoga, patrolling 400 miles west of the Liberty, launched and then recalled at least two squadrons of Navy fighter-bombers that might have arrived in time to prevent the torpedo attack -- and save 26 American lives.

J.Q. "Tony" Hart, then a chief petty officer assigned to a U.S. Navy relay station in Morocco that handled communications between Washington and the 6th Fleet, remembered listening as Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, in Washington, ordered Rear Adm. Lawrence Geis, commander of the America's carrier battle group, to bring the jets home.

When Geis protested that the Liberty was under attack and needed help, Hart said, McNamara retorted that "President [Lyndon] Johnson is not going to go to war or embarrass an American ally over a few sailors."

McNamara, who is now 91, told the Tribune he has "absolutely no recollection of what I did that day," except that "I have a memory that I didn't know at the time what was going on."

The Johnson administration did not publicly dispute Israel's claim that the attack had been nothing more than a disastrous mistake. But internal White House documents obtained from the Lyndon B. Johnson Presidential Library show that the Israelis' explanation of how the mistake had occurred was not believed.

Except for McNamara, most senior administration officials from Secretary of State Dean Rusk on down privately agreed with Johnson's intelligence adviser, Clark Clifford, who was quoted in minutes of a National Security Council staff meeting as saying it was "inconceivable" that the attack had been a case of mistaken identity.

The attack "couldn't be anything else but deliberate," the NSA's director, Lt. Gen. Marshall Carter, later told Congress.

"I don't think you'll find many people at NSA who believe it was accidental," Benson Buffham, a former deputy NSA director, said in an interview.

"I just always assumed that the Israeli pilots knew what they were doing," said Harold Saunders, then a member of the National Security Council staff and later assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern and South Asian affairs.

"So for me, the question really is who issued the order to do that and why? That's the really interesting thing."

The answer, if there is one, will probably never be known. Gen. Moshe Dayan, then the country's minister of defense; Levi Eshkol, the Israeli prime minister; and Golda Meir, his successor, are all dead.

Many of those who believe the Liberty was purposely attacked have suggested that the Israelis feared the ship might intercept communications revealing its plans to widen the war, which the U.S. opposed. But no one has ever produced any solid evidence to support that theory, and the Israelis dismiss it. The NSA's deputy director, Louis Tordella, speculated in a recently declassified memo that the attack "might have been ordered by some senior commander on the Sinai Peninsula who wrongly suspected that the LIBERTY was monitoring his activities."

Was the U.S. flag visible?

Though the attack on the Liberty has faded from public memory, Michael Oren, a historian and senior fellow at The Shalem Center in Jerusalem, conceded that "the case of the assault on the Liberty has never been closed."

If anything, Oren said, "the accusations leveled against Israel have grown sharper with time." Oren said in an interview that he believed a formal investigation by the U.S., even 40 years later, would be useful if only because it would finally establish Israel's innocence.

Questions about what happened to the Liberty have been kept alive by survivors' groups and their Web sites, a half-dozen books, magazine articles and television documentaries, scholarly papers published in academic journals, and Internet chat groups where amateur sleuths debate arcane points of photo interpretation and torpedo running depth.

Meantime, the Liberty's survivors and their supporters, including a distinguished constellation of retired admirals and generals, have persisted in asking Congress for a full-scale formal investigation.

"We deserve to have the truth," Pat Blue said.

For all its apparent complexity, the attack on the Liberty can be reduced to a single question: Was the ship flying the American flag at the time of the attack, and was that flag visible from the air?

The survivors interviewed by the Tribune uniformly agree that the Liberty was flying the Stars and Stripes before, during and after the attack, except for a brief period in which one flag that had been shot down was replaced with another, larger flag -- the ship's "holiday colors" -- that measured 13 feet long.

Concludes one of the declassified NSA documents: "Every official interview of numerous Liberty crewmen gave consistent evidence that indeed the Liberty was flying an American flag -- and, further, the weather conditions were ideal to ensure its easy observance and identification."

The Israeli court of inquiry that examined the attack, and absolved the Israeli military of criminal culpability, came to precisely the opposite conclusion.

"Throughout the contact," it declared, "no American or any other flag appeared on the ship."

The attack, the court said, had been prompted by a report, which later proved erroneous, that a ship was shelling Israeli-held positions in the Sinai Peninsula. The Liberty had no guns capable of shelling the shore, but the court concluded that the U.S. ship had been mistakenly identified as the source of the shelling.

Yiftah Spector, the first Israeli pilot to attack the ship, told the Jerusalem Post in 2003 that when he first spotted the Liberty, "I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively no flag."

But the Liberty crewmen interviewed by the Tribune said the Israeli jets simply appeared and began shooting. They also said the Liberty did not open fire on the planes because it was armed only with four .50-caliber machine guns intended to repel boarders.

"I can't identify it, but in any case it's a military ship," Spector radioed his ground controller, according to a transcript of the Israeli air-to-ground communications published by the Jerusalem Post in 2004.

That transcript, made by a Post reporter who was allowed to listen to what the Israeli Air Force said were tapes of the attacking pilots' communications, contained only two references to "American" or "Americans," one at the beginning and the other at the end of the attack.

The first reference occurred at 1:54 p.m. local time, two minutes before the Israeli jets began their first strafing run.

In the Post transcript, a weapons system officer on the ground suddenly blurted out, "What is this? Americans?"

"Where are Americans?" replied one of the air controllers.

The question went unanswered, and it was not asked again.

Twenty minutes later, after the Liberty had been hit repeatedly by machine guns, 30 mm cannon and napalm from the Israelis' French-built Mirage and Mystere fighter-bombers, the controller directing the attack asked his chief in Tel Aviv to which country the target vessel belonged.

"Apparently American," the chief controller replied.

Fourteen minutes later the Liberty was struck amidships by a torpedo from an Israeli boat, killing 26 of the 100 or so NSA technicians and specialists in Russian and Arabic who were working in restricted compartments below the ship's waterline.

Analyst: Israelis wanted it sunk

The transcript published by the Jerusalem Post bore scant resemblance to the one that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine behind the sealed vault door at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, where Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force.

"The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it," Forslund recalled. "The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.

"The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors."

Forslund said he clearly recalled "the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely."

"He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink."

Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. "Everybody saw these," said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military.

Forslund's recollections are supported by those of two other Air Force intelligence specialists, working in widely separate locations, who say they also saw the transcripts of the attacking Israeli pilots' communications.

One is James Gotcher, now an attorney in California, who was then serving with the Air Force Security Service's 6924th Security Squadron, an adjunct of the NSA, at Son Tra, Vietnam.

"It was clear that the Israeli aircraft were being vectored directly at USS Liberty," Gotcher recalled in an e-mail. "Later, around the time Liberty got off a distress call, the controllers seemed to panic and urged the aircraft to 'complete the job' and get out of there."

Six thousand miles from Omaha, on the Mediterranean island of Crete, Air Force Capt. Richard Block was commanding an intelligence wing of more than 100 analysts and cryptologists monitoring Middle Eastern communications.

The transcripts Block remembered seeing "were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack," Block said. "The pilots said, 'This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?'

"And ground control came back and said, 'Yes, follow orders.'"

Gotcher and Forslund agreed with Block that the Jerusalem Post transcript was not at all like what they remember reading.

"There is simply no way that [the Post transcript is] the same as what I saw," Gotcher said. "More to the point, for anyone familiar with air-to-ground [communications] procedures, that simply isn't the way pilots and controllers communicate."

Block, now a child protection caseworker in Florida, observed that "the fact that the Israeli pilots clearly identified the ship as American and asked for further instructions from ground control appears to be a missing part of that Jerusalem Post article."

Arieh O'Sullivan, the Post reporter who made the newspaper's transcript, said the Israeli Air Force tapes he listened to contained blank spaces. He said he assumed those blank spaces occurred while Israeli pilots were conducting their strafing runs and had nothing to communicate.

'But sir, it's an American ship!'

Forslund, Gotcher and Block are not alone in claiming to have read transcripts of the attack that they said left no doubt the Israelis knew they were attempting to sink a U.S. Navy ship.

Many ears were tuned to the battles being fought in and around the Sinai during the Six-Day War, including those belonging to other Arab nations with a keen interest in the outcome.

"I had a Libyan naval captain who was listening in that day," said a retired CIA officer, who spoke on condition that he not be named discussing a clandestine informant.

"He thought history would change its course," the CIA officer recalled. "Israel attacking the U.S. He was certain, listening in to the Israeli and American comms [communications], that it was deliberate."

The late Dwight Porter, the American ambassador to Lebanon during the Six-Day War, told friends and family members that he had been shown English-language transcripts of Israeli pilots talking to their controllers.

A close friend, William Chandler, the former head of the Trans-Arabian Pipe Line Co., said Porter recalled one of the pilots protesting, "But sir, it's an American ship -- I can see the flag!' To which the ground control responded, 'Never mind; hit it!'"

Porter, who asked that his recollections not be made public while he was alive because they involved classified information, also discussed the transcripts during a lunch in 2000 at the Cosmos Club in Washington with another retired American diplomat, Andrew Kilgore, the former U.S. ambassador to Qatar.

Kilgore recalled Porter saying that he "saw the telex, read it, and passed it right back" to the embassy official who had shown it to him. He quoted Porter as recalling that the transcript showed "Israel was attacking, and they know it's an American ship."

Haviland Smith, a young CIA officer stationed in Beirut during the Six-Day War, said that although he never saw the transcript, he had "heard on a number of occasions exactly the story that you just told me about what that transcript contained."

He had later been told, Smith recalled, "that ultimately all of the transcripts were deep-sixed. I was told that they were deep-sixed because the administration did not wish to embarrass the Israelis."

Perhaps the most persuasive suggestion that such transcripts existed comes from the Israelis themselves, in a pair of diplomatic cables sent by the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Avraham Harman, to Foreign Minister Abba Eban in Tel Aviv.

Five days after the Liberty attack, Harman cabled Eban that a source the Israelis code-named "Hamlet" was reporting that the Americans had "clear proof that from a certain stage the pilot discovered the identity of the ship and continued the attack anyway."

Harman repeated the warning three days later, advising Eban, who is now dead, that the White House was "very angry," and that "the reason for this is that the Americans probably have findings showing that our pilots indeed knew that the ship was American."

According to a memoir by then-CIA director Richard Helms, President Johnson's personal anger was manifest when he discovered the story of the Liberty attack on an inside page of the next day's New York Times. Johnson barked that "it should have been on the front page!"

Israeli historian Tom Segev, who mentioned the cables in his recent book "1967," said other cables showed that Harman's source for the second cable was Arthur Goldberg, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

The cables, which have been declassified by the Israelis, were obtained from the Israeli State Archive and translated from Hebrew by the Tribune.

Oliver Kirby, the NSA's deputy director for operations at the time of the Liberty attack, confirmed the existence of NSA transcripts.

Asked whether he had personally read such transcripts, Kirby replied, "I sure did. I certainly did."

"They said, 'We've got him in the zero,'" Kirby recalled, "whatever that meant -- I guess the sights or something. And then one of them said, 'Can you see the flag?' They said 'Yes, it's U.S, it's U.S.' They said it several times, so there wasn't any doubt in anybody's mind that they knew it."

Kirby, now 86 and retired in Texas, said the transcripts were "something that's bothered me all my life. I'm willing to swear on a stack of Bibles that we knew they knew."

One set of transcripts apparently survived in the archives of the U.S. Army's intelligence school, then located at Ft. Holabird in Maryland.

W. Patrick Lang, a retired Army colonel who spent eight years as chief of Middle East intelligence for the Defense Intelligence Agency, said the transcripts were used as "course material" in an advanced class for intelligence officers on the clandestine interception of voice transmissions.

"The flight leader spoke to his base to report that he had the ship in view, that it was the same ship that he had been briefed on and that it was clearly marked with the U.S. flag," Lang recalled in an e-mail.

"The flight commander was reluctant," Lang said in a subsequent interview. "That was very clear. He didn't want to do this. He asked them a couple of times, 'Do you really want me to do this?' I've remembered it ever since. It was very striking. I've been harboring this memory for all these years."

Key NSA tapes said missing

Asked whether the NSA had in fact intercepted the communications of the Israeli pilots who were attacking the Liberty, Kirby, the retired senior NSA official, replied, "We sure did."

On its Web site, the NSA has posted three recordings of Israeli communications made on June 8, 1967. But none of the recordings is of the attack itself.

Indeed, the declassified documents state that no recordings of the "actual attack" exist, raising questions about the source of the transcripts recalled by Forslund, Gotcher, Block, Porter, Lang and Kirby.

The three recordings reflect what the NSA describes as "the aftermath" of the attack -- Israeli communications with two Israeli helicopters dispatched to rescue any survivors who may have jumped into the water.

Two of the recordings were made by Michael Prostinak, a Hebrew linguist aboard a U.S. Navy EC-121, a lumbering propeller-driven aircraft specially equipped to gather electronic intelligence.

But Prostinak said he was certain that more than three recordings were made that day.

"I can tell you there were more tapes than just the three on the Internet," he said. "No doubt in my mind, more than three tapes."

At least one of the missing tapes, Prostinak said, captured Israeli communications "in which people were not just tranquil or taking care of business as normal. We knew that something was being attacked," Prostinak said. "Everyone we were listening to was excited. You know, it was an actual attack. And during the attack was when mention of the American flag was made."

Prostinak acknowledged that his Hebrew was not good enough to understand every word being said, but that after the mention of the American flag "the attack did continue. We copied [recorded] it until we got completely out of range. We got a great deal of it."

Charles Tiffany, the plane's navigator, remembers hearing Prostinak on the plane's intercom system, shouting, "I got something crazy on UHF," the radio frequency band used by the Israeli Air Force.

"I'll never forget it to this day," said Tiffany, now a retired Florida lawyer. He also remembers hearing the plane's pilot ordering the NSA linguists to "start taping everything."

Prostinak said he and the others aboard the plane had been unaware of the Liberty's presence 15,000 feet below, but had concluded that the Israelis' target must be an American ship. "We knew that something was being attacked," Prostinak said.

After listening to the three recordings released by the NSA, Prostinak said it was clear from the sequence in which they were numbered that at least two tapes that had once existed were not there.

One tape, designated A1104/A-02, begins at 2:29 p.m. local time, just after the Liberty was hit by the torpedo. Prostinak said there was a preceding tape, A1104/A-01.

That tape likely would have recorded much of the attack, which began with the air assault at 1:56 p.m. Prostinak said a second tape, which preceded one beginning at 3:07 p.m., made by another linguist aboard the same plane, also appeared to be missing.

As soon as the EC-121 landed at its base in Athens, Prostinak said, all the tapes were rushed to an NSA facility at the Athens airport where Hebrew translators were standing by.

"We told them what we had, and they immediately took the tapes and went to work," recalled Prostinak, who after leaving the Navy became chief of police and then town administrator for the village of Lake Waccamaw, N.C.

Another linguist aboard the EC-121, who spoke on condition that he not be named, said he believed there had been as many as "five or six" tapes recording the attack on the Liberty or its aftermath.

Andrea Martino, the NSA's senior media adviser, did not respond to a question about the apparent conflict between the agency's assertion that there were no recordings of the Israeli attack and the recollections of those interviewed for this article.

U.S. inquiry widely criticized

Rather than investigating how and why a U.S. Navy vessel had been attacked by an ally, the Navy seemed interested in asking as few questions as possible and answering them in record time.

Even while the Liberty was still limping toward a dry dock in Malta, the Navy convened a formal Court of Inquiry. Adm. John McCain Jr., the commander of U.S. naval forces in Europe and father of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), chose Adm. Isaac Kidd Jr. to preside.

The court's charge was narrow: to determine whether any shortcomings on the part of the Liberty's crew had contributed to the injuries and deaths that resulted from the attack. McCain gave Kidd's investigators a week to complete the job.

"That was a shock," recalled retired Navy Capt. Ward Boston, the inquiry's counsel, who said he and Kidd had estimated that a thorough inquiry would take six months.

"Everyone was kind of stunned that it was handled so quickly and without much hullabaloo," said G. Patrick March, then a member of McCain's staff in London.

Largely because of time constraints, Boston said, the investigators were unable to question many of the survivors, or to visit Israel and interview any Israelis involved in the attack.

Rear Adm. Merlin Staring, the Navy's former judge advocate general, was asked to assess the American inquiry's report before it was sent to Washington. But Staring said it was taken from him when he began to question some aspects of the report. He describes it now as "a hasty, superficial, incomplete and totally inadequate inquiry."

Staring, who is among those calling for a full congressional investigation on behalf of the Liberty's survivors, observed in an interview that the inquiry report contained several "findings of fact" unsupported by testimony or evidence.

One such finding ignored the testimony of several inquiry witnesses that the American flag was flying during the attack, and held that the "available evidence combines to indicate the attack on LIBERTY on 8 June was in fact a case of mistaken identity."

There are also apparent omissions in the inquiry's report. It does not include, for example, the testimony of a young lieutenant, Lloyd Painter, who was serving as officer of the deck when the attack began. Painter said he testified that an Israeli torpedo boat "methodically machine-gunned one of our life rafts" that had been put over the side by crewmen preparing to abandon ship.

Painter, who spent 32 years as a Secret Service agent after leaving the Navy, charged that his testimony about the life rafts was purposely omitted.

Ward Boston recalled that, after McCain's one-week deadline expired, Kidd took the record compiled by the inquiry "and flew back to Washington, and I went back to Naples," the headquarters of the 6th Fleet.

"Two weeks later, he comes back to Naples and calls me from his office," Boston recalled in an interview. "In that deep voice, he said, 'Ward, they aren't interested in the facts. It's a political issue and we have to put a lid on it. We've been ordered to shut up.'

"It's time for the truth to come out," declared Boston, who is now 84. "There have been so many cover-ups."

"Someday the truth of this will come out," said Dennis Eikleberry, a NSA technician aboard the Liberty. "Someday it will, but we'll all be gone."

James Ennes, now 74, who was officer of the deck just before the attack began, and later spent two months in a body cast, is one of the more vocal survivors. Like the others, Ennes is tired of waiting.

"We want both sides to stop lying," he said.

- - -

How the attack unfolded

National Security Agency documents recount the hours leading up to, during and after the attack on the USS Liberty by Israeli forces that killed 34.

EVENTS OF JUNE 8, 1967

6 a.m. An Israeli reconnaissance plane spots an unidentified ship 70 miles west of Tel Aviv.

9 a.m. A second Israeli reconnaissance plane spots an unidentified ship 20 miles north of El-Arish. Liberty's position is plotted on a map in green, designating a "neutral ship."

10:55 a.m. A naval liaison officer at Israeli Air Force headquarters informs Israeli Naval Headquarters that the previously unidentified ship is an "audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy" named Liberty.

11 a.m. The acting chief of Israeli naval operations orders removal of Liberty from a plot table because he is no longer certain of its position.

11:30 a.m. The Israeli Navy receives an erroneous report that El-Arish is being shelled from the sea.

12:05 p.m. Three motor torpedo boats (MTBs) are ordered to proceed toward El-Arish.

THE ATTACK ON THE LIBERTY

1:56 p.m. Two Israeli Mirage III aircraft, followed by two Super Mystere aircraft, begin their attack on the Liberty.

2:14 p.m. The chief Israeli air controller in Tel Aviv tells the controller who is directing the attack on the Liberty that the ship is "apparently American."

2:20 p.m. The Israeli naval commander orders the commander of the Torpedo Boat Division to attack the Liberty. At almost the same time, the Naval Operations Branch orders: "Do not attack. It is possible that the aircraft have not identified correctly." The commander of the Torpedo Boat Division says he never got any order to cease the attack, although the deputy commander says he passed the message to the commander.

2:24 p.m. Liberty sights three MTBs 4-5 miles away and closing fast.

2:26 p.m. Liberty raises its largest American flag, the "Holiday colors."

2:27 p.m. Three torpedo boats begin strafing the Liberty and launch their six torpedoes.

2:28 p.m. Five torpedoes miss the ship, but one strikes the Liberty's right side, leaving a 39-foot hole.

THE AFTERMATH

2:29 p.m. Starting time for an NSA tape of Israeli communications after the attack. A previous tape, which presumably would have captured the air and torpedo attacks, is missing.

3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

3:12 p.m. The helicopters' communications with the ground are intercepted by an American aircraft circling high above the scene. One helicopter pilot reports that he sees an American flag flying from the Liberty's mast.

3:16 p.m. An Israeli ground controller orders the helicopters to return to El Arish

Sources: National Security Agency documents, Tribune reporting


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yup, I remember hearing all the scuttlebutt and rumors surrounding this and supposed motives back when I was in the Navy (early 90's).

I never understood it, why we didn't hammer Israel in some way for it, but now the theory put forth by that missing memo finally has it making sense. We were in on it.

But, having so many survivors is inconvenient for a cover-up and false flag... so, instead of the cover-up being that they attacked us posing as Egypt, it became about hiding that we helped hatch the plan.

Why else would they still have our favor? Why else would there not have been some form of swift and painful retribution, especially when there were supposedly fighters with nukes aboard ready to be dropped on Cairo until the last minute recall? All that, yet not so much as a formal reprimand for Jerusalem? We were about to nuke Cairo, but not even a lone 500 pounder to lob into Tel Aviv or perhaps a few sorties into their airfields? Hmmm, maybe even stop selling them fighter aircraft? Nah, nothing of the sort.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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I was over in the Med when the Liberty was attacked. Iwas aboard the USS Forest Sherman. Us and another Destroyer were sent to defend her. We took off at full speed and right before we arived we were called off and the other destroyer proceed to escort the shot up liberty into port as the attack was over.
What is your interest. I can't tell you anything because true to Navy tradition we were told nothing. After we were called off it was like it never happened. I will tell you that while we were in route everybody thought it was the Arabs. That was as close to combat as I ever got except for a few bar fights.

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I brought this up on the old board to illustrate the prejudices we have against certain groups. I asked "what would you think of a country that spies on us and kills our service members?" And of course everyone was united in agreement about that specific country being an enemy of the UNited States. Once I revealed that country was Israel certain people on this board made excuses for Israel. Even after provided proof no one in the world spies on this country more.

There is a gentleman at my local VFW who got upset one day when the news was on talking about aid to Israel. The man was physically shaking and displayed a level of disgust I have rarely seen.

He then began telling us about the USS Liberty incident. He says he is a surviving Sailor from that ship. This was the first I heard of this. So I did a little digging. Pretty much everything this old Sailor told us matched up.

I only have alligence too one country. I swore and oath to defend it from all enemies foreign and domestic. I don't care who they are. You spill the blood of my fellow Brothers in Arms, you are not any "Ally" of mine.

Politics be damned. There is no justification for this.

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If what you have posted is true, then you are right and there was no justification for it. However, this happened almost 50 years ago. Almost all of those who were in power and making decisions are dead today. Who do you punish? Evidently they made restitution. (which probably came out of the foreign aid we send to them, but that is par for the course in that part of the world)

If you want to go further, before Israel became an independent state, some wanting an independent Jewish state practiced terrorism. It happened. It is fact. Again, though, most of those people are dead today. Who do we punish? .

Today, Israel is our ally. They are one of few in that part of the world.

Today we have enemies and allies in that area. We have long practiced "the enemy of my enemy" to the extent that it has more twists and turns than a library full of the best mystery novels. We have made mistakes, both of commission, and omission.

We have this issue with an attack on one of our ships, almost 50 years ago. It seems likely that maybe higher ups in both the Israeli government and our government may have covered things up.

My question to you would be this: At this point in time, what would you do about this situation? Almost 50 years after the fact, who do you go after? Do you blow up a long standing and friendly relationship over something that happened almost 50 years ago, and which both sides seem to have buried almost immediately? What actions do you see as prudent and proper at this time?


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Jewish state practiced terrorism


Uhm, they still do. Are you familiar with MOSSAD?

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Friends with Benefits: Why the U.S.-Israeli Alliance Is Good for America

Michael Eisenstadt and David Pollock

Foreign Affairs
November 7, 2012

The bilateral relationship is based on tangible, steadily increasing security and economic interests, not just shared values.

View this article on the Foreign Affairs website.

At the final presidential debate of the 2012 campaign season, President Barack Obama and Governor Mitt Romney mentioned Israel some 30 times, more than any other country except Iran. Both candidates called the Jewish state "a true friend," pledging to stand with it through thick and thin. Some political commentators criticized these effusive declarations of support as pandering, suggesting that the candidates were simply going after Jewish and pro-Israel votes.

But if support for Israel is indeed such a political winner, then it's at least in part because the voters know best. The U.S.-Israeli alliance now contributes more than ever to American security, as bilateral cooperation to deal with both military and nonmilitary challenges has grown in recent years. The relationship may not be symmetrical; the United States has provided Israel with indispensable diplomatic, economic, and military support totaling more than $115 billion since 1949. But it is a two-way partnership whose benefits to the United States have been substantial. The other, less tangible costs of the U.S.-Israeli alliance -- mainly, damage to Washington's reputation in Arab and Muslim countries, a problem also caused by American interventions and decades of U.S. support for autocratic leaders in the Middle East -- pale in comparison with the economic, military, and political gains it affords Washington.

U.S.-Israeli security cooperation dates back to heights of the Cold War, when the Jewish state came to be seen in Washington as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the Middle East and a counter to Arab nationalism. Although the world has changed since then, the strategic logic for the U.S.-Israeli alliance has not. Israel remains a counterweight against radical forces in the Middle East, including political Islam and violent extremism. It has also prevented the further proliferation of weapons of mass destruction in the region by thwarting Iraq and Syria's nuclear programs.

Israel continues to help the United States deal with traditional security threats. The two countries share intelligence on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and Middle Eastern politics. Israel's military experiences have shaped the United States' approach to counterterrorism and homeland security. The two governments work together to develop sophisticated military technology, such as the David's Sling counter-rocket and Arrow missile defense systems, which may soon be ready for export to other U.S. allies. Israel has also emerged as an important niche defense supplier to the U.S. military, with sales growing from $300 million per year before September 11 to $1.1 billion in 2006, due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel's military research and development complex has pioneered many cutting-edge technologies that are transforming the face of modern war, including cyberweapons, unmanned vehicles (such as land robots and aerial drones), sensors and electronic warfare systems, and advanced defenses for military vehicles.

The U.S.-Israeli alliance has paved the way for the countries to cooperate on far more than just traditional security issues. In part because of the long-standing political and security relationship between the United States and Israel, most Israelis know the United States and harbor positive feelings toward it. Israeli companies looking for a global market for their products have often viewed their American counterparts as partners of choice. So today, Israeli civilian technological innovations are helping the United States maintain its economic competitiveness, promote sustainable development, and address a range of non-military security challenges.

Dozens of leading U.S. companies have set up technology incubators in Israel to take advantage of the country's penchant for new ideas, which is why Bill Gates observed in 2006 that the "innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business." Likewise, Israeli high-tech firms often turn to U.S. companies as partners for joint production and marketing opportunities in the United States and elsewhere, creating tens of thousands of American jobs. And although Israelis make up just three percent of the population of the Middle East, in 2011 Israel was the destination of 25 percent of all U.S. exports to the region, having recently eclipsed Saudi Arabia as the top market there for American products.

U.S. companies' substantial cooperation with Israel on information technology has been crucial to Silicon Valley's success. At Intel's research and development centers in Israel, engineers have designed many of the company's most successful microprocessors, accounting for some 40 percent of the firm's revenues last year. If you've made a secure financial transaction on the Internet, sent an instant message, or bought something using PayPal, you can thank Israeli IT researchers.

Israeli innovators have also come up with novel solutions to the water and food security challenges posed by population growth, climate change, and economic development. By necessity, given the geography of the Middle East, Israel is a world leader in water conservation and management and high-tech agriculture. Israel recycles more than eighty percent of its wastewater -- the highest level in the world -- and has pioneered widely used techniques of conserving or purifying water, including drip irrigation and reverse osmosis desalination. And a number of Israeli companies are leaders in the development of renewable energy sources; BrightSource Industries, for example, is building a solar power plant in California using Israeli technology that will double the amount of solar thermal electricity produced in America. These innovations, bolstered by the substantial American investment in Israel, contribute to long-term U.S. domestic and foreign policy objectives relating to sustainable development.

To be sure, the alliance with Israel has not been without risks or costs for Washington. The 1973 War between Israel and its neighbors brought America to the brink of conflict with the Soviet Union and prompted an Arab embargo on oil exports to the United States. Following the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, the Reagan administration dispatched U.S. marines to help stabilize the country, which ultimately resulted in costly attacks on American diplomats and military personnel there. And U.S. diplomatic and military support for Israel has reinforced negative attitudes toward the United States in many Arab and predominantly Muslim countries.

But these costs should not be overstated. Beyond leading to largely symbolic UN votes against U.S. positions, Washington's support for Israel has hardly damaged the United States' ties with its Arab and Muslim allies. Standing with Israel certainly has not hobbled U.S. policy toward the region as much as the war in Iraq or Washington's backing of autocratic Arab regimes. Meanwhile, no Arab ally of the United States has ever, as a result of its pro-Israel posture, refused to cooperate with Washington on counterterrorism or denied its requests for access, basing, or overflight rights.

In fact, the U.S.-Israeli alliance has at times helped spur closer U.S.-Arab relations, on the theory that only the United States could convince Israel to make concessions in negotiations; this was part of the logic behind Egypt's shift away from the Soviet Union and toward the United States in the 1970s. And even during the past decade of close U.S.-Israeli cooperation, and despite an impasse in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, Arab ties with the United States have largely flourished: bilateral trade and investment are booming, as U.S. exports to the Middle East in 2011 reached an all-time high of $56 billion. Defense cooperation is as close as ever, indicated by the several multi-billion-dollar arms deals that Washington has struck with Gulf allies in recent years. Moreover, several states, including Egypt and Jordan, along with the Palestinian Authority, share intelligence with Israel and at various times have worked behind the scenes to enlist Israel as an intermediary with Washington. This has been the case even with Egypt's post-revolutionary government. All this underscores the fact that self-interest, not ideology, is the primary driver of the Arab states' relations with Washington.

Despite the ties that continue to bind the United States and some Arab countries, the last two years of upheaval have brought turmoil to many of Washington's traditional allies in the region. At a time of great uncertainty, particularly as tensions with Iran mount, the United States is even more likely to depend on its somewhat stable nondemocratic allies, such as Saudi Arabia, and its stable democratic allies, such as Israel and Turkey, to secure its interests in the region. If anything, recent events have reinforced the logic underpinning U.S.-Israeli strategic cooperation.

The benefits to the United States of its relationship with Israel belie the argument that the alliance is based solely on the two countries' shared democratic values, on the popularity of Israel in American politics, or on the elusive pursuit of progress in the peace process. It is a relationship based on tangible interests -- and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

It isn't always easy being Israel's ally (and Israeli actions don't always make it easier). The country faces many challenges, including the unresolved conflict with the Palestinians, internal socioeconomic gaps, voices around the world that deny its right to exist, and now Iran's nuclear program. Israel has made uneven progress toward addressing these issues and needs to do more to remain an attractive partner for the United States. But its past successes in incorporating huge numbers of immigrants, bridging deep social divides, and showing remarkable resilience in the face of war and terrorism provide reason to believe that Washington can continue to count on its closest partner in the Middle East, and will continue to benefit from its alliance with the Jewish state.

Michael Eisenstadt is director of the Military and Security Studies Program at The Washington Institute. David Pollock is the Institute's Kaufman fellow. This article was adapted from their recent report Asset Test: How the United States Benefits from Its Alliance with Israel.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/polic...ood-for-america

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Please, the only reason this alliance is good is because Israel doesn't want to give up their free US funded military.

These guys always talking trash about us, yet the moment theirs a hint of talk of us leaving, they come crying and trying to talk to congress.

It's still mind boggling how t England and the US decided to gift wrap Jerusalem to jews, straight up taking it from Palestine., yet we won't grant the Kurds their own country, and these people were fighting WITH us when we invaded Iraq.

Last edited by Swish; 02/18/15 10:39 AM.

“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

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Originally Posted By: Swish
Please, the only reason this alliance is good is because Israel doesn't want to give up their free US funded military.

These guys always talking trash about us, yet the moment theirs a hint of talk of us leaving, they come crying and trying to talk to congress.

It's still mind boggling how t England and the US decided to gift wrap Jerusalem to jews, straight up taking it from Palestine., yet we won't grant the Kurds their own country, and these people were fighting WITH us when we invaded Iraq.


Do you have a link to where I can read about their bad mouthing?

Do you think we OWN Iraq and can just grant land to other countries?

We gave Israel a Nation to have a place for all the refugees to go after WWII. We took Arab land to do it because the Arabs supported the Nazi's throughout the war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world

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They are always running their mouths whenever we criticize them, or haven't you been watching the news?

We didn't OWN Palestine when this happened:

http://www.vox.com/cards/israel-palestine/1948-partition

Many Arabs saw the influx of Jews as a European colonial movement, and the two peoples fought bitterly. The British couldn't control the violence and, in 1947, the United Nations voted to split the land into two countries. Almost all of the roughly 650,000Jews went to the blue territory in the map to the right, and a majority of the Arab population (roughly twice the size of the Jewish community) went to the orange.

__________

lets get that clear: The country was PALESTINE, and then the UN decided "nah, here you go"

and how hypocritical are you?

you're saying we took their country away and granted it to another because they supported the Nazis....

yet these arab countries support terrorism and we can grant the Kurds their own country?

thats THE SAME THING. yet you decided Israel has more of a right than Kurds?

pfftt....


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

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oh, here's a nice chart on what was palestine's land until the partition plan in 1947:
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/facts-us-citizens-need-know-israel-palestine.html

notice how their land keeps shrinking, and shrinking, and shrinking?

if you was from palestine, wouldn't you be fighting to take back your country as well?

the only part worth a damn that belongs to palestine is Gaza, and Israel is trying to take THAT from them as well.

_________

thats what happens when you guys decide to get one sided information. you don't know the entire story.


“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

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here's some more information for you 40:

April 02, 2013 "Information Clearing House" -"If Americans Knew" - Israel has a population of approximately 7.8 million, or a million fewer than the state of New Jersey. It is among the world's most affluent nations, with a per capita income similar to that of the European Union.[1] Israel's unemployment rate of 5.6% is much better than America's 9.1%,[2] and Israel's net trade, earnings, and payments is ranked 48th in the world while the US sits at a dismal 198th.[3]

Yet Israel receives approximately 10% of America's foreign aid budget every year.[4] The US has, in fact, given more aid to Israel than it has to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined—which have a total population of over a billion people.[5] And foreign aid is just one component of the staggering cost of our alliance with Israel.

Given the tremendous costs, it is critical to examine why we lavish so much aid on Israel, and whether it is worth Americans' hard-earned tax dollars. But first, let's take a look at what our alliance with Israel truly costs.
Before the Iraq War in 2003

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article34485.htm

______________

here's some pretty charts, just incase you're more of a visual type of guy:

http://www.wrmea.org/2003-june/the-costs-to-american-taxpayers-of-the-israeli-palestinian-conflict-$3-trillion.html

_________

and just incase, you, or anyone else gives the lame excuse of "lol, that site is bogus har har", here's a link from a highly respected org:

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how-much-america-really-spends-on-israels-defense-2012-9

U.S. taxpayers have contributed more to the Israeli defense budget than Israeli taxpayers in the past three years.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-how...9#ixzz3S6yXxNuQ

____________________________

let's make this clear: i don't have a problem protecting Israel. I have a problem with assisting them of cleansing the area of palestine. THATS the issue. because it won't stop there. you don't think Israel would go to war with Iran if they had to power to? They'd do it in a heart beat, then it be pakistan, then afghan, than iraq, than Saudi.

Thats the middle east for you guys. power hungry. that's all its ever been.

the fact that this money could be going to fixing our nation pisses me off as well. why are we giving more money per capita to Israel than their OWN citizens?

thats stupid. and it needs to stop.


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You should work in Propaganda.

Where you quote the "respected" site actually debunks the statement you posted about The US taxpayers have contributed more to Israel's defense than Israeli taxpayers contributed.

From your site...

But the claim seemed fishy to us.

Given that U.S. military aid to Israel was $2.775 billion in 2010, $3 billion in 2011, $3.07 billion in 2012 (and $3.15 billion per year from 2013-2018) while Israel's defense budget is around $15 billion, it made us wonder how much Israeli taxpayers contribute and where the other $12 billion non-U.S. aid comes from.

We emailed Shmuel Even, an expert of Israel's defense at the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv, who told us that Israel's up-to-date defense budget for 2012 is $15 billion, with 70 percent contributed by Israeli taxpayers, 21 percent coming from U.S. aid and 9 percent coming from Defense Ministry income.

That would put the Israeli taxpayer contribution at $10.5 billion, compared to $3.15 billion from the U.S. (Even added that the U.S. aid in 2011 was $3.1 billion and that most of the aid comes in weapons as opposed to cash.)

So was Lt. Gen. Ashkenazi—who served as the IDF supreme commander from 2007 to 2011—simply mistaken? Or is he alluding to something that one of Israel's top researchers doesn't know?

Shmuel Even watched the video of Ashkenazi's speech and said the former IDF chief "said it, but I don't know why."

Please at least read the site before you post it as evidence.

It is my opinion that Israel is a vital ally and I will not support the Palestinians who danced it the streets as the twin towers fell.

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We emailed Shmuel Even, an expert of Israel's defense at the Institute for National Security Studies in Tel Aviv, who told us that Israel's up-to-date defense budget for 2012 is $15 billion, with 70 percent contributed by Israeli taxpayers, 21 percent coming from U.S. aid and 9 percent coming from Defense Ministry income.

______

you should learn to read. thats from their OWN budget, not ours. we still contribute more money than they do all time. thats a fact. that can't even be disputed.

and a vital ally?

what do they protect us from? we could've taken that land for ourselves, or if we decided to give palestine UN backing, we would've had a base there anyway, since palestine has said over and over they want to be part of the UN and part of NATO.


and once again, you're dodging questions.

why did we give Israel a country, that didn't belong to us, yet we won't do the same to Kurds?
i'll be waiting for your response.

Last edited by Swish; 02/18/15 01:00 PM.

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why did we give Israel a country, that didn't belong to us, yet we won't do the same to Kurds?


We could take it a step further. Why do those who support Israel not want to give all the land back to the Native Americans? They were here first...

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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Quote:
why did we give Israel a country, that didn't belong to us, yet we won't do the same to Kurds?


We could take it a step further. Why do those who support Israel not want to give all the land back to the Native Americans? They were here first...


yep. i mean since we want to be so generous and all.


and thats the problem. see, look how 40 responds to it. you should've seen him on the other boards.

and thats how a lot of the country is. if you criticize Israel, you are anti-jew and pro muslim. there's no middle ground. and that upsets me.


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Here's what you claimed in a previous post...

U.S. taxpayers have contributed more to the Israeli defense budget than Israeli taxpayers in the past three years.

Here is what you are saying now...

with 70 percent contributed by Israeli taxpayers, 21 percent coming from U.S. aid and 9 percent coming from Defense Ministry income.

So your first statement was a bold faced lie.


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Do you think we OWN Iraq and can just grant land to other countries?


This didn't stop us from doing this very thing and creating Israel, so how & why does it apply now?


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It applies now because we'd be helping muslims. Before it was helping the Jews, and well JC was a Jew so they're alright in his book.


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Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Quote:
why did we give Israel a country, that didn't belong to us, yet we won't do the same to Kurds?


We could take it a step further. Why do those who support Israel not want to give all the land back to the Native Americans? They were here first...


So would you like us to give more money to the Palestinians so they can build better tunnels to slaughter the innocent? Or perhaps you would like us to buy more missiles for Hezbollah?
How bout we allow Iran to have Nukes while they support Hezbollah?

I say America's wisest choice is to support Israel, the only Democracy in the middle east, a good trading partner, and a very large landing zone and aircraft carrier if we ever need them.

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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Here's what you claimed in a previous post...

U.S. taxpayers have contributed more to the Israeli defense budget than Israeli taxpayers in the past three years.

Here is what you are saying now...

with 70 percent contributed by Israeli taxpayers, 21 percent coming from U.S. aid and 9 percent coming from Defense Ministry income.

So your first statement was a bold faced lie.



so i went back and looked at the figures, did some more digging, just for you 40, cause you're right, that statement was odd,

but then looked what i found:

The Israeli army’s chief of staff states that in the past three years, “US taxpayers have contributed more to the Israeli defense budget than Israeli taxpayers,” according to a report in the Jerusalem Post, a prominent Israeli newspaper.

According to the report, Lieutenant-General Gabi Ashkenazi made the statement during a Ashkenazispeech on September 11th. In it he emphasized: “We must preserve ties with the United States. I believe this is a security necessity.”

http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2012/09/1...-than-israelis/


so who's lying? business insider, or the ISRAELI who said it?

and once again, answer the damn question.

why is it ok to take land from palestine and give it to Israel, yet we can't do the same for Kurds, who actually fight with us in the middle east?


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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Quote:
why did we give Israel a country, that didn't belong to us, yet we won't do the same to Kurds?


We could take it a step further. Why do those who support Israel not want to give all the land back to the Native Americans? They were here first...


So would you like us to give more money to the Palestinians so they can build better tunnels to slaughter the innocent? Or perhaps you would like us to buy more missiles for Hezbollah?
How bout we allow Iran to have Nukes while they support Hezbollah?

I say America's wisest choice is to support Israel, the only Democracy in the middle east, a good trading partner, and a very large landing zone and aircraft carrier if we ever need them.


see man thats why you just don't get it. Palestine is the one getting slaughtered since 1947. NOT the other way around. They were already there and established, and now look where they stand.

if jewish people decided to fight palestinians, BY THEMSELVES, to make Israel,and it ended up being this way now:

i wouldn't care. spoils go to the victor. hey, tough luck palestine, should've fought better.

but thats NOT what happened. Israel got gift-wrapped a country by some global powerhouses for no other reason than the US and England feeling bad for the holocaust.

Palestine had no say so in the matter. you don't think palestine should be PISSED about that? the fact that Jews got their own country and they didn't even have to get their hands dirty, some other countries did it for them? and CONTINUES to do it for them by the way.


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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
Quote:
Do you think we OWN Iraq and can just grant land to other countries?


This didn't stop us from doing this very thing and creating Israel, so how & why does it apply now?

\
That is a massive oversimplification, and vastly untrue statement of the events as they occurred.

The Middle East, following WWI, was unde rthe control of the Allied Forces, and specifically the League Of Nations. (which the US refused to join) The area of "Palestine" went from the Mediterranean through Jordon, in the form of Trans-Jordan.

The US did her best to stay out of the affairs of the area.

As the years went by, the Jewish people bought up labd in the area, and wanted their own state. They were refured. Then events began where jews were killed in a variety of countries, from Russia, and other countries as the Soviet Union began its campaign of wiping out religion as best it could, to the rise of the Nazis.

This is a massive oversimplification as well, but it is a decent chain of events. The Jewish people continued to move into the area that has become Israel, which was a desert, by the way, they drained marshlands to create green areas where they could grow food, and built cities and towns. The Jews built much of what was a dead and lifeless desert into the Metropolis that exists today.

People think that the problems with the Arabs in the area and the Jews began with the establishment of Israel, but that really is not the case. Jerusalem is a holy city for Jews, and yet the Palestinians, prior to the establishment of Israel, refused to allow Jews in to worship. This was supposed to be a "shared" area under the Palestinian Mandate. A whole town of elderly Jews who wanted to worship in Palestine was wiped out by Palestinian Arabs when they tried to make the journey. There is blood on the hands of all in that region.

Anyway, there were mistakes made on all sides, and to assume or believe otherwise is to ignore the reality of the time, No side was blameless.

The US did not "create" Israel, but we did support it once it had been established. (In fact, on the day they declared statehood) The Balfour Declaration said that a Jewish "National Homeland" would exist within Palestine, but the fact is that this was never going to happen without such a state being completely independent. Too many Jews were being killed, in too many other parts of the world, bu too many peoples, for them to accept that someone else was going to protect them.

Anyway, it was, and is part of a highly complicated set of circumstances, and it will probably remain so until the end. Anyway, we can all throw around really incomplete opinions and stories, but the truth would probably take 1000 pages on a thread just to scratch the surface.


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Shouldn't they let God give it to them if they truly believe their word? Bulldozing houses, creating ghettos, and establishing apartheid isn't godly behavior by any means.

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Are you aware of how Jews have been treated throughout that part of the world? It's not a nice story.

Anyway, Israel actually has Arab Muslims living inside of their borders. They get to vote in elections if they choose to become Israeli citizens, and even local elections if they choose not to become Israeli citizens. I am not going to pretend that they have a perfect life, but I would bet that it is on par with, or even above that they would have living in the Palestinian areas.

I also don't know why you have this idea that Christians or Jews should just stand by and allow themselves to be exterminated. God does not want us, as individuals, going to "war" with another person. However, in the time of Jesus, being a soldier was a noble profession, and He considered it to be s well. He also said that we should support those appointed to rule over us, unless it goes against the rules of God. (hence my opposition to abortion, and other issues)

I have a 2 part question for you.

What do you think would happen to the Arab population if all of a sudden Israel was appointed to rule over them? Would their lives improve, stay the same, or get significantly worse?

Conversely, what do you think would happen to the Jewish population if almost any Arab state were appointed to rule over them? Would their lives improve, stay the same, or get significantly worse?


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Looks like you responded to me, but I never said that.

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The governments involved may have forgot about this but the surviving Sailors certainly have not. Not to mention the families of the victims. I don't think the truth is to much to ask for. I would have Israel give a formal apology to the the Sailors and their families. Not to mention pay restitution.

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Hmmmm. . . . .great point.

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Quote:
What do you think would happen to the Arab population if all of a sudden Israel was appointed to rule over them? Would their lives improve, stay the same, or get significantly worse?


Shouldn't they have faith in their god that all will work out fine in the end?

Quote:
Conversely, what do you think would happen to the Jewish population if almost any Arab state were appointed to rule over them? Would their lives improve, stay the same, or get significantly worse?


See point above.

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I will ask again, why do you think that we should just stand around and expect God to do everything. God works through people. This world is a very imperfect and sinful place. Do you seriously think that God expects for His people to just stand around and be slaughtered? (as has happened to the Jews in huge numbers in the 20th century, in Germany, and also through out eastern Europe/the Soviet Union.

Further, Jews do not believe in the New testament, so they are not bound by the teachings of Jesus. They live according to their traditions, and to the teachings of the Torah.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

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I still find it hilarious that people say they have an "all knowing God" and then say things like "does God expect" or some variation of it.

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I think there's something in there about not testing God, right? Wouldn't the current zionists be testing God due to trying to force their own prophecy?

By no means am I advocating a massive slaughter of any sorts. I just don't understand that "do this because this sacred book says they own the land" type of mentality. Why not support giving back the land to the Native Americans because their gods said they own this land, too?

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If we started, and lost a war, and the Native Americans were rounded up for extinction by us, then, yeah, I could see them fighting for, and maybe even receiving their own homeland.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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