DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... PDR's olive branch/challenge to Christians

No, I agree that it is confusing. It was originally intended to eliminate the need for "J/C" ...... but I still find myself adding that anyway, just so as not to confuse people.

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Thread started 1-21-15. 2-4-15 you said "

It's 2-16-15. I know you had a funeral to attend.

Any update on your "considered thesis"?

Some of them are. 2 Thes. 3:10 says - " For even when we were with you, this we commanded you: that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

As you stated in a different thread, many black kids grow up with a "go big or go home" attitude. If they can't make a fortune in sports or entertainment, then they might as well live on the margin, getting by sometimes, sometimes not.


That's because a government program does nothing to lift you up, it does nothing to help you get on your feet, it does nothing to help you develop a skill, it does nothing to provide you encouragement, it does NOTHING but allow you to exist one more day with no better outlook for tomorrow. So I agree that feeding those who can't feed themselves temporarily is important.. it needs to be more TEMPORARY while a better solution is found. And that's not happening with government programs.

Then there is the personal responsibility aspect of it.. people need to do a little self-assessment of their own image... if you want a job or a better job, maybe you need to lose the dreds.. cover up the sleeve tats.. wear pants that fit.. speak decent English... I know several black teens who want a job, but they only want it on their terms. I talk to them regularly, they view dressing appropriate for a job and speaking better as giving in... What can you do with that? If you look, talk, and act like you just walked out of the hood, then people are going to treat you like you just walked out of the hood. I didn't make the rules, if you want to improve your odds of success, you better be prepared to conform just a bit to what society expects from people.

For the record, I was a big fan of Clinton's welfare to work program.. I'm in favor of eliminating the system that is currently set up to keep poor people fed but right where they are.... and replaced with a system that actually rewards effort, rewards success, because the system we have now does not.

B
Quote:
the last verse, a person in need.

Thats a lot of people on government assistance that people on this ver board think are lazy and entitled.

I am one of them. Why is it so difficult to admit that some folks are just lazy and find it perfectly acceptable to live off the government? It does hapen and it is indisputable.

Bump

Thanks for the bump arch, I missed this response to me...

I have no problem admitting that. There have always been people like that all through history. The question becomes what to do about it. How do you provide needed help to those who really want the help to improve themselves and those who don't? And for those who don't, do we let them starve?

Assistance programs were initially established as a temporary stepping stone to provide individuals with an opportunity to better their lives. However, the government has allowed it to become a "way of life" rather than an opportunity for betterment. We need to further limit assistance programs with the exception of truely and documented disabled individuals.

Most of us are all for assisting those who are struggling. But when a person makes a lifetime of struggling with no desire to help him or herself, it then becomes enabling.

Way too many families in this society perpetuate and teach the use of assistance through generations.

I am in total agreement though it's not just the government that has allowed it, it is the people as well. And it only stands to reason.... You develop a program for people in need, then the next election your promise to increase the benefits and everybody who qualifies is going to vote for you. I'm not for disallowing people on assistance to vote but voting for the people who will ultimately decide what benefits you get is a conflict of interest. I don't know how to fix it but it needs fixed.. maybe a regressive scale like the first two years you are benefits you get X... years 3 and 4 you get X-10%... years 5 and 6 you get X-25%.. eventually you will get to a point where people can't live on it any more.

I will add by edit here.. that's not a repub/dem thing.. the repubs are all about free handouts and buying votes as well.. just in different forms and they haven't learned to market it nearly as well as the dems..

Just make them all have to go to a central location and stand in line for their food and benefits. They will soon find work.

I have long advocated that those on general assistance programs should do work for their communities Pay them a solid wage, per hour, until they work off the value of their checks each month. Maybe split it with classroom work that would help them better be able to find a job.

Obviously you will have people who cannot work, and there has to be accommodation for those who simply are physically unable to work, but these situations should be independently evaluated to make sure the disabled person is truly disabled. (and I say this as someone who is classified as completely and totally disabled)

The city of Youngstown has used prisoners from the jail to help patch roads. It is still a process in appeasing the unions, but there does seem to be progress.

There are a lot of ideas that could both help those on assistance, as well as the communities in which they live, if only we would take the steps to start the process.

General assistance programs are administrated by the state. Some only administer assistance to unemployable and disabled. While others admin both employable and unemployable.

So it's pretty much in the hands of each state. Shall we change that also?

Not necessarily. I think that states should start administering these programs on their own. The federal government could, however, add some strings to the money it sends to the states. They do for everything else, so why not something that might actually be useful?

I work in a Sign Shop. Jobs & Family Services sends us people who are to work for their benefits. We don't have to pay them. I've seen them come and go.

Some have to work as much as 160 hours a month for their benefits. Some less. JFS will also pay for them to go to school to better themselves. If they do go to school they don't have to work as many hours.

I've seen a few of these people who are good workers. Some of them have lost their driver's license. It's tough to get a job when you can't drive. But they are otherwise very good workers.

Some of the people have no skills. They are inept at even the most basic skills we need and virtually cannot be taught attention to detail. Some are only able to work in a janitorial-type capacity but we really don't need that full-time. But we keep them busy on such duties so they can earn their benefits.

There are some that are "hard core" unemployed. They simply cannot deal with the rigors of a schedule such as being on time or performing scheduled duties in a competent manner. Usually they end up being "No call - No show" which causes them to lose their benefits or some part of them.

Some of these people live some pretty desperate lives. One family I know, two parents and two young children, get $450 per month and food stamps and health care. They live in a crappy apartment that costs them $400 per month for rent. That leaves $50 per month for utilities and all other necessities other than food and health care. That's a tough life. Many people think they've got it made and don't have to work but I can tell you from my experience that that is rarely the case.

In the four or so years we've been having people sent to us only one has been able to master the needed skills as well as being timely. Just before we were ready to hire him full-time he moved to another city. He has custody of two adorable young daughters and he is a great guy, very personable and an asset to anyone who employs him. In his time with us he has become a dear friend. I heard that he's moved back into town and will likely be assigned to us again. At that point we'll most likely hire him.

He also is attending a 4-year correspondence course studying forensics. He has less than a year left to graduate that. That cuts his hours down to 120 per month so he'll have time to study. His grades are in the 3.7 range.

He has a car now, that he didn't have before. If things keep going on as they have been he'll be a success story from the Welfare System. there aren't many of them.

Many of the others just aren't employable. Many of them due to a lack of education or even just common sense. Many of them have also come from horribly dysfunctional family situations growing up. That explains some of their issues. These people need help and simply cannot be judged on the same curve as the rest of us. Simply cannot.

I draw no conclusions to any of this. Just that in my experience and opinion some really need the help as they almost cannot help themselves whereas there are some that need direction and guidance to succeed in the workforce.

not for nothin'.... but I found this interesting.
It showed up in my fb feed, and I immediately thought about this thread. (I need a life, you know?)

That's a cute picture and a good illustration of people's mentalities to a degree, but the things we get into about the Bible around here aren't cryptic at all. They're spoken about in plain enough English (even in the King James) to not have any grey area to wiggle around in.

Oh, I just stopped by to read the "Considered Thesis". Still nothing?

On the West Coast to mourn the loss of another young friend gone too soon.

For those who don't know of Harris' work (which I assume is many)...he just scared the crap out of me as a comedy writer when the kid hit the scene. You just thought 'well my best isn't good enough anymore'. Sharp as a tack, and just a firecracker of comedic talent.

And it wasn't just in the writers room...the guy was effortlessly hilarious at all times.

http://m.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/n...-report-2015192

They say death comes in threes...waiting for the last one so this can all stop feeling like a bad dream.

Sorry for your loss, PDR. I didn't know him personally, but have a few friends who do and their anecdotes are touching.

Harris was a one in a million type.

You don't become an EP in your 20's for any other reason but sheer incredible talent.

And usually those types are prickly or hard to get along with.

But everyone loved Harris. Everyone.

jc:

http://news.yahoo.com/republicans-propose-declaring-idaho-christian-state-233031805.html

Republicans propose declaring Idaho a 'Christian state'

SALMON, Idaho (Reuters) - Members of a county Republican Party in Idaho are to take up a measure on Tuesday evening that would declare the state a Christian one to bolster what the proposal calls the "Judeo-Christian bedrock of the founding of the United States."

The resolution to be voted on by the Kootenai County Republican Central Committee is non-binding, meaning it does not have the effect of laws or rules.

The proposal seeks that Idaho be "formally and specifically declared a Christian state," guided by a Judeo-Christian faith reflected in the U.S. Declaration of Independence where all authority and power is attributed to God, the resolution reads.

The measure argues that the Christian faith is under "strident attack" in the United States, and cites as evidence the absence of Christian traditions and symbols in public institutions such as schools.

The issue has sparked debate within the Republican stronghold of northern Idaho, once known for harboring leaders of the so-called Christian identity or white supremacist movement such as the late Aryan Nations founder Richard Butler.

Supporters say the measure echoes the Christian principles espoused by early U.S. presidents such as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, and that it has added significance at a time when Christians are subject to persecution in countries such as Syria where it is not the dominant religion.

"We're a Christian community in a Christian state and the Republican Party is a Christian Party," said Jeff Tyler, a member of the committee and backer of the draft resolution.

"It's important that Christians stand up and be unashamed to say they're Christians."

Other committee members said they opposed the proposal, but that it placed them in a difficult position because if they voted against it they risked being unjustly labeled as anti-Christian.

Bjorn Handeen, a committee member who described himself as a Republican with libertarian leanings, said he is opposed to any document that puts the government in charge of defining Christianity.

He said the resolution was pushed by a small group within the committee that is bent on creating division among its about 70 members.

"Ultimately, I'm not in favor of dividing us by religion; I'm in favor of uniting us by freedom," Handeen said.

If approved, the resolution would be submitted to the state Republican Party for a vote by its members.

Idaho has long been a Republican bastion, with party members holding the majority of state offices.

(Reporting by Laura Zuckerman; Editing by Daniel Wallis and Mohammad Zargham)

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you guys are starting to operate like a cult. christians are more or less becoming on par with scientologist.

These people need to stop it.. just stop it right now. Just go BE a Christian... smh...

I think what you are seeing is the of folks of a certain persuasion feeling threatened in their back yard . people on the Left or Right can argue all they want about what the USA is when it comes to religious beliefs .. History will tell you that we were founded by Christians and remained Christian run ( from outside GOVT ) for at lest the first couple of hundred years .. I feel like our present Administration walks to such a different drummer that he has a whole bunch of folks with their panties in a wad ! Then throw in the middle East and Houston you have a problem ..

I agree. This proposal accomplishes nothing in the larger scheme of things, except allow those on the other side to use it to try and make a case that we are somehow "extremists".

Christians definitely need to make the case that we should follow the example Christ set for us, as a moral guide for our lives, but we should not go overboard with preachiness and "look at us" type schemes.

The Treaty of Tripoli, established during a little conflict with individuals in the middle east, signed by members of the government established that the United States of America was not founded on Christian values. Look it up.

That little conflict was Muslim pirates who took possession of American cargo vessels, forced the crew into slavery, and we tried to pay them off to make them go away but they just kept doing it so we had to promise we held no religious animosity toward them so they would allow us to sail ships through the area... Secretary of State John Marshall said, "The Christians who would be on good terms with them must fight well or pay well." Two hundred and forty years later and nothing has changed.

jc

Pat Robertson says aliens are impossible because God just wouldn’t allow it

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/25/pat_robe...ment_with_life/


On Wednesday, Pat Robertson spent time on “The 700 Club” telling NASA not to waste money going to Mars or searching for life beyond Earth. Why? Well because in Robertson’s non-expert opinion there’s nothing out there in space besides “barren rocks” and “gaseous balls.”

“This planet is where God has got an experiment in what he wants to have accomplished,” Robertson stated. “But somehow, people want to spend a lot of money to go to Mars! I don’t want to think that Mars is someplace I want to visit, and it would take a lot of money to get there!”



One could roll their eyes at this rhetoric and dismiss it as Robertson’s typical bombastic and close-minded blather. But his “NASA is too expensive” thoughts are shared by politicians who hold the purse strings.

This line of thought displays not only a lack of imagination, but also a lack of understanding of Earth’s finite resources. This sort of limited scope of ideas also stifles innovation and scientific discovery. Space travel is responsible for so many incredible technologies that we use today, which NASA has helpfully enumerated here.

Scientists including Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye and Stephen Hawking have all made the case for space exploration as a necessity for mankind.

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and what's even more sad is that a lot of people believe every word that come out of this guys mouth.

Preach it, Swish.

We don't even need to take their word for it. All we have to do is look around our houses to see the 'trickle-down' that has benefited us all from innovations courtesy of the Space Program:

Teflon-coated skillets
Dust busters (portable hand-held vacuum cleaners)
L.E.D. technology (my TV looks great because of it)
Infrared ear thermometers (used in every ER/doctor's office today)
Mylar blankets (supplied in almost every cold-weather first-aid kit)
TempurPedic mattresses
Single crystal silicon solar power cells are revolutionizing the solar panel industry, bringing down production costs, and making solar energy a financially viable resource/alternative to 'inner earth' forms of energy


The list is too ridiculously long to post here. Modern marvels by the thousands (that we now take for granted in modern life) exist as Real Market spinoffs from innovations created to fill the needs of our Space Program.

IMHO, this has less to do with "God's plan for us" than it has to do with Pat Robertson's world view for us. And Pat Robertson has been a dolt since the day he was born. Why anyone follows and supports the likes of him is a mystery to me. I was gob-smacked by his pathetic lack of intellectual acumen and thuggish attempts at evangelical bullying when I was in my 20's... and I'm amazed that his "brand" even exists today.

Apparently, there's no limit to the number of willingly, defiantly ignorant folks who are more than happy to send their money his way.

Thoughtful Christians with even an 8th grade education should run from this man, as fast and as hard as they can. Those with a 10th grade education should lead the charge and set the pace.

This man is represents a mass drain on the collective IQ of an entire nation. He should always be allowed to speak... but those with 6 working brain cells ( fully twice what he owns) should always be empowered to speak out against the excrement he peddles.

IMO, he's not a "religious leader"... he's a far-right ideologue, who wraps his message in a cloak of "Christian Values" to sell to an unsuspecting, well-meaning audience.

The man is reprehensible on every level that's defined by a dictionary.

He is the poster child for what's wrong with America.


Post anything he submits to the world, and I'll make it my life's work to refute it. He represents the antithesis of everything I love about being alive today.

With the death of Osama Bin Laden, my list of truly hated Human beings has now been reduced to one. They truly are on the same level, IMHO.

Flip sides of the same mis-minted coin.

The world is better off without both of them.

Wow. I am not a fan of Pat Robertson, but to say that he and Osama bin Laden are 2 sides of the same coin is rather extreme. Osama bin Laden is the perfect example of hatred for hatred's sake, and twisting a religion to make violence and death not only acceptable, but desirable. As far as I know, Robertson has not gone anywhere near that far.

I question many of his actions, but I still cannot put him on the same level as a terrorist whose actions and leadership lead to the deaths of at least 3000 people in one truly reprehensible act of hatred.

Pat Robertson is an idiot and people like him do no harm to anyone physically but this kind of religious based rhetoric slows (sometimes stops) scientific and economic advancements that could be saving lives...

So he "could" be worse than Bin Laden in the sense that he is costing lives, livelihoods and/or the damage he causes to REAL issues in the name of God.

I don't hate him, but damn sure wouldn't miss him if he didn't exist.

Clem, I'm surprised at you. I haven't watched Pat in years but to equate a guy (televangelist though he be) who does charitable work with what he brings in with Bin Laden is head scratching to me.
I understand what you're saying, but the 'reprehensible' comment all g with the Bin Laden statement actually has me wondering if you'd had a few too many when you said that.
I also highly doubt Robertson has cost any lives. Thats just silly. No one is going to stop researching anything based on what grandpa Pat has to say.

I was wondering if Clem's references to Pat killing people had to do with Pat's standing up against the wholesale slaughter of our unborn children and the harvesting of their stem cells, like some kind of insane Cannibals, all in the name of human progress.

40. just stop. seriously just stop.

I'm sick of your double standard.

all about the unborn kids, but ain't got no problem nuking people in the middle east, a lot of them being those children you're glad were born.

and i don't see a problem with using dead babies for stem cell research. they're ALREADY dead.

when i die, you think i give a damn if scientist want to experiment on my body? It's not like i'm going to feel it.

And a lot of people who will tell you that Pat is just a religious nut, would have told you this guy was a respected scientist...

In 1971, another global-cooling alarmist, Stanford University professor Paul Ehrlich, who is perhaps best known for his 1968 book The Population Bomb, made similarly wild forecasts for the end of the millennium in a speech at the British Institute for Biology. “By the year 2000 the United Kingdom will be simply a small group of impoverished islands, inhabited by some 70 million hungry people,” he claimed. “If I were a gambler, I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000 and give ten to one that the life of the average Briton would be of distinctly lower quality than it is today.” Of course, England still exists, and its population was doing much better in 2000 than when Ehrlich made his kooky claims. But long before 2000, Ehrlich had abandoned global-cooling alarmism in favor of warning that the Earth faced catastrophic global warming. Now he is warning that humans may soon be forced to resort to cannibalism.

So what is your point? Some people, even those with some level of authority, are allowed to be stupid...

Now, now swish. Nobody likes a cry baby except Mommys and Democrats.

I'm busted. Totally.

'Mea culpas' all around, Dawgs.

Ted... you're not the first to call me on this. You're just the first that I've had a chance to respond to, after posting- and after re-reading my post.

Lemme clear this up for everyone, right here and now.

My take on Pat Robertson is this:

I truly do believe that he is (and has always been) a prime example of the worst that can go wrong in a society that (rightfully) allows free speech in its society. Like I said in my OP, I'd never make a single move to silence his voice.

Is he the literal "equal and opposite version of Osama Bin Laden?"

No. Definitely not.
(I'm actually glad that my fellow posters called me on this one. Good on you, Dawgs. You've reminded me that I truly need to keep it 100%, if I'm going to weigh in on conversations such as these.)


After admitting to my alcohol-induced rhetorical excesses, I'll move on to the point I SHOULD have made in my previous post:

__________________________

People like Pat Robertson present a real and present danger to the necessary civil discourse that prompts a society to examine itself, and make better choices for its future. He cloaks his 'spiritual message' to others in a fog of pseudo-Judeo/Christian meanderings, while all the time, delivering a skewed message of "Jesus' Message for End-Time warriors" that fits with his idea of what America should be.

On the face of it, I don't have a problem with this. I love open debate/conversation about the tings that should matter most to us. I'd LOVE nothing more than to spend an uninterrupted 24-hour period of time with this huckster, and enter into true philosophic/ theosophic/ American politics debate with him. I truly believe that I could argue him into a total standoff of ideals, purely based on the statements that are attributed to him in the public record. That truly would be fun for me.

BUT: When he employs tactics like this- when he uses his tele-marketing-styled influence to reach folks who don't have other info... when he manipulates others into action by a bastardization of God's Own Word, he is using the same propaganda techniques to mobilize an entire population in the exact same way as persons like Osama Bin Laden use to influence his minions.

In one instance, those words compelled a group to fly commercial planes into buildings. In the other instance, those words have compelled an entire group of American citizens to instinctively mistrust (and in some cases, actively persecute) other Americans.

How is either example "right" or "proper" If Our God is a just God who and wants for all His people a better life?

IMHO, Pat Robertson has NEVER been a "Spiritual Leader" as much as he's been a mouthpiece for the American Far-Right Movement... and should be called out for the mouthpiece he really is.

God has never been a 'respecter of Man,' nor should He ever be. Why then, should we ever believe that God Himself has ordained that ANY Human Being is entitled to speak to us for Him?

In my heart of hearts, I don't believe that Pat Robertson would EVER be recognized by Jesus as one of his.

I don't believe him. I don't trust him. My soul tells me to reject his words as false prophecy. He's another chunk of 98.6 who is making a living by telling folks what they're already predisposed to believe.

Pat Robertson is a 'snake oil salesman'.... and he uses TV to do what his his travelling side show counterparts used, when they traveled from town to town with a horse-drawn trailer.

The saddest part of all of this: 150 years later, a certain segment of our populace still lines up to suck this snake oil down with a straw.

David Hannum, in his assessment of P.T. Banum was right:
"There's a sucker born every minute"

______

Have I now explained myself to everyone else's satisfaction?

I'm not a fan of Pat Robertson, can't say I've ever watched his show or followed his ministry but the level of hatred over this particular article is kind of funny...


So is NASA planning our exodus from the planet or looking for resources we can mine and return to earth? I've not heard about this.


If NASA really is just a collection of great minds who do R&D, then call it that. Do we need the premise of going to Mars to invent cool stuff? Is that the most cost effective way to invent modern conveniences like Teflon and the other stuff on the list?

A lot of people hold the notion that NASA is extremely expensive based on the ROI for very practical, non-religious reasons...

And Pat's opinion that there is no other life out there because God ordained it that way... whatever. He can believe whatever he wants.

Well so far the evidence of no life out there is on Pat's side.
Everywhere we look we have found it to be more sterile than a Surgeon's scalpel. Nothing dead, no fossils, void of all life, sterile.

That's because we haven't gone outside our own back yard yet. Hell, by cosmic standards, we haven't really even left the back porch.