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bro ... BQ got pounded way more in each of his first two years at ND in 11 or 12 games then Charlie and whoever else played QB did last year in 16 ...
BQ's TOUGH AS NAILS .. not that I want to see him thrown to the wolves ... but he can take a lickin and keep on tickin ...
Woah there big fella!!!!
I was just looking at it from a "buisness standpoint".
I know Brady didn't have much of an OL or running game to fall back on either. I've been doing a little studying up on the kid.
My point was actually a rather basic one there Bud. If you are going to shuffle your OL around ...........................
JT - New
Steinbach - New
Where will Shaffer play?
RG New
So it will take a little time for ajustments on that OL. My point was they may not wish to risk the health of BQ under those circumstances since they are counting on him as our future franchise QB. I just believe from that business standpoint,they may "play it safe" and let Charlie start the first 6-8 games untill the OL can develop just a little cohesion first.
Just as a precaution for the future. I know the kid is tough as nails Diam. I wasn't questioning that.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Dwell on the past
The past? Last I heard Frye is still the starter.
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Dwell on the past
The past? Last I heard Frye is still the starter.
Won't be for long
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let menza and soup drown in their despair .. i know i will .. *L*
You really have no clue at all what I think, none in the least. Why didn't I want Quinn? Because we had NO LINE. There was no sense in getting ANY future QB without a LT, ya know what? Savage obviously agreed with me. Saying Quinn got hit more than Frye is hilarious. He had years when playing Navy and all the garbage teams. This is NOT a knock on Quinn. Frye, through 13 games was the most hit QB in the NFL - who hits harder? I didn't want another QB WITHOUT A LINE because he'd end up in the Cleveland clinic again. Quinn has more potential than Frye does. To say Quinn's work ethic is better than Frye's is a joke. Frye worked his butt off all off-season last year and I guarantee he did it this year. Quinn is said to have an amazing work ethic as well. They are equal. Frye takes Quinn IN A LANDSLIDE in mobility. Quinn has better POCKET PRESENCE, but Frye has 5 times the mobility. All around Quinn is a much better QB prospect than Frye. I spent time defending Frye to drill it into know-it-alls like your head that we needed a line way more than a QB - because without it our future QB was ruined. You want credability? Phil Savage obviously agreed whcih is why he chose Thomas first. Instead of saying I'm drowning in my sorrows you need to say "Soup was right, we did need a LT before a QB so the QB wouldn't get murdered."
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This is really ridiculous, you guys arguing over Frye vs. Quinn. They both got drafted by the Browns for a reason. And that reason is because they both have the POTENTIAL to be good, if not great, NFL quarterbacks. Despite what everyone says or thinks, the jury is still out on both of them. Sitting here and picking apart every nuance and tidbit of statisitical information about each one and tearing them apart is exactly what Savage bashed the media for doing in his post-Quinn draft presser. You guys are doing the same thing.
Don't you realize that having two very capable QBs is a beautiful problem to have? (I think PPE already mentioned that so I know he gets it.) And I know, we really don't need a QB controversy, but for this season at least, I would love it if Charlie could step up and be the man. At least, he can up his trade value. I'm pulling for both of these guys and since they are both Cleveland Browns and you are all supposed fans, you should too. JMHO.
I tell you one thing, I'm gonna freak out if Charlie throws one bad pass and people start calling for Brady on Day One. He may be the most NFL-ready QB to come out, but Quinn should still sit and learn. Romeo cannot be that stupid.
BTW Mensa: Your stat showing Tim Couch having a lower interception percentage than Charlie Frye didn't do much to support your argument for Frye. 
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BTW Mensa: Your stat showing Tim Couch having a lower interception percentage than Charlie Frye didn't do much to support your argument for Frye.
The fact that you think Couch threw a lot of picks shows your lack of football knowledge.
Frye has the 5th best interception ratio in Browns history. Better than Cleveland's last League MVP "Brian Sipe", better than Cleveland's best winner as a QB, Otto Graham. But seeing how most of you know so little about football I can see why you guys blame the QB for everything.
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Wow... how many seasons did those QB's play?
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You guys are right though. Frye is the most interception happy QB the NFL has ever seen. There's never been a QB as careless with the football as Charlie Frye. Interception Ratio after first 2 years in the NFL 2.67% - Dan Marino 2.88% - Tom Brady 3.04% - Joe Montana 3.88% - Peyton Manning 4.14% - Charlie Frye 4.17% - Carson Palmer 4.19% - Steve Young 4.54% - John Elway 5.20% - Troy Aikman 5.41% - Johnny Unitas 7.78% - Terry Bradshaw
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When CF has comparable time on the field, attempts, and other viable messurables then your points will have merit... Until then thses type of very subjective stats are short term overviews of a limited situation... Who are you trying to kid comparing CF with Otto and Brian??? There is no comparison unless you want to hide behind stats... Again... What your presenting here is a 300 hitter who is 3 for 10 in a limited role to guys that have proven to be consistant performers that have played whole seasons at 100 for 300 clips... Not gonna float here man...  Who has a vision or knowledge issue? CF has not started or completed an entire season in the 2 years hes been here... Time will tell... Not you or I... Figures don't lie... But liars sure figure...
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Don't make me pull out the pictures again. 
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I've mentioned those a few times after that post.
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It amazes me that we have had Brady on this team for less than a week and we are already seeing the QB controversy. If Quinn ends up being the next Tom Brady someone will say the backup is better and he should be starting.
Why can't we as Browns fans just cheer the guy playing and enjoy what he brings to the table. No matter who the QB is lets just let him play without all the B.S.
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You guys are right though. Frye is the most interception happy QB the NFL has ever seen. There's never been a QB as careless with the football as Charlie Frye.
Interception Ratio after first 2 years in the NFL
2.67% - Dan Marino
2.88% - Tom Brady
3.04% - Joe Montana
3.88% - Peyton Manning
4.14% - Charlie Frye
4.17% - Carson Palmer
4.19% - Steve Young
4.54% - John Elway
5.20% - Troy Aikman
5.41% - Johnny Unitas
7.78% - Terry Bradshaw
Wow, I cannot believe that Charlie Frye's interception ratio is among all of the leagues greats for their first two year [/sarcasm]
Of course it is. The range there is huge. I am sure that Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf and every other draft bust fits into that range as well.
There are multiple problems with the statistics that you keep presenting.
1. You are biasing the statistics by only choosing the players that you want.
2. Your n values are too low to even be significant.
3. You are drawing conclusions that don't even correlate to the statistics your presenting. (I bet you 90 percent of young QBs fall into that range you just presented, but they do not have the 100 percent chance of being a hall of Famer, like everyone else on this list.
4. Football is too complex to use simple statistics to make your argument
Last edited by hungryhound; 05/04/07 09:50 AM.
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No the problem is all you guys that blame everything on the QB.
Frye's doing what all young QB's do in this league, but you guys are too nescient to understand that.
Brian Sipe's first 2 years in the NFL
5.10% - Interception percentage
Otto Graham's first 2 years in the NFL
6.95% Interception percentage
Sipe also threw 5 INT's for every 1 TD in his first two years.
Let's throw Sipe to the wolves, he'll never amount to anything.
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at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen. Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats. TD:INT ratio Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 1.667 Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 0.609 How about QB rating? Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9 Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2 Yards? Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 6733 Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 3456 Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
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what exactly is it you are arguing against?
The future is written and it does not look like it includes Frye.
I like the kid too and I didn't think he was anywhere near as bad as folks make him out to be, but unless he outshines Quinn dramatically and consistently... he's not the starter here for much longer.
Charlie is good enough to win with, absolutley... but, Quinn is and will be better. That, to me, is indisputable.
You can debate whether or not there was a true need for the QB pick at the time, that I would agree with... but I cannot see how you can possibly think that it's not a step up (actually, your repeated use of individual stats as if they are a tell-all of a story tells me how you might think that).
You make me think of the designer of the Titanic..... arguing that it can't be sinking because your calculations and design tells you it's unsinkable.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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No the problem is all you guys that blame everything on the QB.
Frye's doing what all young QB's do in this league, but you guys are too nescient to understand that.
Brian Sipe's first 2 years in the NFL
5.10% - Interception percentage
Otto Graham's first 2 years in the NFL
6.95% Interception percentage
Sipe also threw 5 INT's for every 1 TD in his first two years.
Let's throw Sipe to the wolves, he'll never amount to anything.
Fist off good word usage with nescient.
Secondly, I never said that your argument that Frye needs more time is wrong. I stated that your use of stats is completely wrong and makes your argument look worse than what it really is.
You continue to compare Frye to all of the greats QB of the national football league at the same point in their careers, and believe that it proves your point. When the reality is that you could compare Frye to most of the BUMs of the national football league and the stats would look eerily similar. All QB stats tend to look the same when they first get into the league. They all suck, almost everyone on here will admit that. It is rare that you have a QB play at a Good to probowl level when they are starting out, so yes the posters who think Frye should be playing that way are delusional, but that does not seem to be the point that you are trying to make.
You keep comparing Frye to ONLY probowl and hall fame QB and showing that the stats compare favorably and that he is going to be as good if not better than these QB. This is the fault in your argument that I find, because it completely ignores every other BUM who had stats similar to the greats who never panned out, and therefore your conclusion is completely invalid. There is no correlation between a QB stats in their first two years in there future success. The all suck at the beginning and either the light goes on and they get it or they continue to suck. There is no way to tell that from the stats that you presented.
I do believe that there is still a chance for Charlie to succeed, but to make the argument that based on the stats, he will is laughable. Stats have no bearing on whether Charlie succeeds or fails. His ability to learn from his mistakes and process data will. If he can increase his ability to read defenses faster and make better quicker decisions, then he has a shot, but where his stats compare means jack at this point.
In fact I find the opposite side of this argument just as ludicrous. Just because Brady Quinn is bigger, stronger, and has a better pedigree, does not mean that he will be all pro either. He may have a better shot, but he has done nothing yet and this argument is irrelevant.
I am just happy that we have two QBs who will push each other to be better. May the best one win, but I doubt you will be able to answer this argument over who will be the better QB for another 2 to 3 years, no matter how many stats either side throws out there. All that matters is how they perform going forward. That will determine who is the starting QB for the browns. The stats and the past are irrelevant.
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BTW Mensa: Your stat showing Tim Couch having a lower interception percentage than Charlie Frye didn't do much to support your argument for Frye.
The fact that you think Couch threw a lot of picks shows your lack of football knowledge.
Now, I think you've lost your Mensa mind. I never said Couch threw a lot of INTs. In fact, thanks to you stat-boy, I can clearly see that he's thrown less than Charlie. The thing that makes your use of that statistic in favor of Charlie null and void is the fact that Tim Couch didn't really turn out to be a very good QB, if you remember correctly. So obviously that stat doesn't carry much weight if you ask me.
If Couch threw less INTs than Charlie and he's out of the league, then what does that say about the future of Charlie Frye?
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If Couch threw less INTs than Charlie and he's out of the league, then what does that say about the future of Charlie Frye?
It means just as much as mensa's stats. Nothing. It has no bearing on how Charlie will develop.
Although it is hilarious to watch people on there high horses throwing one useless stat after another at each other. 
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It means just as much as mensa's stats. Nothing. It has no bearing on how Charlie will develop.
Okay, maybe you should change your name to Mensa because, clearly, you have the mental capacity to understand the irony in what I wrote. (Glad someone picked up on that.)
The real Mensa, on the other hand, seems to be so stat-happy that he doesn't even realize when he uses stats which oppose his own argument. He's just throwing crap out there hoping something sticks.
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j/c...
All I know is that whoever starts game 1, game 8, game 12, game 17... I just want to win... regardless...
Frye has the talent to take this team to places it's never been before... so does Quinn...
Everyone just needs to do their thing and play well.. take it game by game.. This franchise will turn around..
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Bottom line: We got Joe Thomas. A real left tackle. This will be the first year we can start to judge Frye. I believe what Mensa (no offense if I'm wrong - and no offense because you are saying it wrong) is that Frye wasn't given an opportunity by fans to develop. That's the bottom line. That's the truth. I ask you all now, don't make that same mistake with Quinn. Let him develop.
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at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen.
Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats.
TD:INT ratio
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 1.667
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 0.609
How about QB rating?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2
Yards?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 6733
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 3456
Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
Palmer sat the bench his 1st year, so how could he have played in 29 games? That makes all your stats wrong. Please try again.
at you trying to compare Palmer in his 2nd and 3rd years in the NFL to Frye in his 1st and 2nd.
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Quote:
at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen.
Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats.
How about QB rating?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2
Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
Next time you debate Mensa on his turf then you must do the same:
Frye under Carthon (you know the story) rating approx 68
Frye Under Davidson: 77 (odd how it's the same as Palmer isn't it?)
You kids need to learn to throw out Carthons numbers because he didn't allow protections to change and purposefully called the wrong ones for the plays. Carthon had no clue, Frye getting a 68 rating under him is a miracle.
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Soup U can plug that mess in all you want but when you see any stats in magazine or the net..they WILL NEVER EVER have a * * that says:" Frye under Carthon (you know the story) rating approx 68
Frye Under Davidson: 77 You do some wild junk
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Soup U can plug that mess in all you want but when you see any stats in magazine or the net..they WILL NEVER EVER have a * * that says:" Frye under Carthon (you know the story) rating approx 68
Frye Under Davidson: 77
You do some wild junk
Maurice Carthon as your OC is like going into a gunfight with a spoon. Read my post about 3 or 4 above it. No stats.
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Quote:
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at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen.
Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats.
TD:INT ratio
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 1.667
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 0.609
How about QB rating?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2
Yards?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 6733
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 3456
Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
Palmer sat the bench his 1st year, so how could he have played in 29 games? That makes all your stats wrong. Please try again.
at you trying to compare Palmer in his 2nd and 3rd years in the NFL to Frye in his 1st and 2nd.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=4459
Learn2Read.
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j/c
At some point we all have to stop looking at stats and just look at the skillset, both physical and mental, of the QBs.
Who do you think has the better skillset to be an NFL QB, Charlie Frye or Brady Quinn?
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at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen.
Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats.
How about QB rating?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2
Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
Next time you debate Mensa on his turf then you must do the same:
Frye under Carthon (you know the story) rating approx 68
Frye Under Davidson: 77 (odd how it's the same as Palmer isn't it?)
You kids need to learn to throw out Carthons numbers because he didn't allow protections to change and purposefully called the wrong ones for the plays. Carthon had no clue, Frye getting a 68 rating under him is a miracle.
I see what you're going for here...but for the sake of accuracy... 72 != 77.
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Quote:
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at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen.
Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats.
How about QB rating?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2
Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
Next time you debate Mensa on his turf then you must do the same:
Frye under Carthon (you know the story) rating approx 68
Frye Under Davidson: 77 (odd how it's the same as Palmer isn't it?)
You kids need to learn to throw out Carthons numbers because he didn't allow protections to change and purposefully called the wrong ones for the plays. Carthon had no clue, Frye getting a 68 rating under him is a miracle.
I see what you're going for here...but for the sake of accuracy... 72 != 77.
Under Davidson (I used a QB calculater as Davidson was OC for 7 of Charlies games) he had a 77 rating.
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Under Davidson (I used a QB calculater as Davidson was OC for 7 of Charlies games) he had a 77 rating.
Understood.
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Under Davidson (I used a QB calculater as Davidson was OC for 7 of Charlies games) he had a 77 rating.
Understood.
Make no mistake about it. Quinn has more upside and potential than Frye. Joe Thomas is the key to this team. I beg for the second time in my last 4 posts - give Quinn time to develop. Don't treat him like Frye, Couch.......give him a fighting chance, after all - Phil did by giving him a rea LT.
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Under Davidson (I used a QB calculater as Davidson was OC for 7 of Charlies games) he had a 77 rating.
Understood.
Make no mistake about it. Quinn has more upside and potential than Frye. Joe Thomas is the key to this team. I beg for the second time in my last 4 posts - give Quinn time to develop. Don't treat him like Frye, Couch.......give him a fighting chance, after all - Phil did by giving him a rea LT.
And that's why he's gonna succeed. Joe to block, Jamal to run the ball, Braylon to go deep, Winslow for the middle routes, JJ for the sure handedness.
It's stuff that the other QB's could only dream of, couple it with his NFL-ready pedigree, he should be just fine. Think Matt Leinart with a better offensive line. Leinart looks like he's gonna turn out ok.
Last edited by Ammo; 05/04/07 12:29 PM.
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Quote:
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Under Davidson (I used a QB calculater as Davidson was OC for 7 of Charlies games) he had a 77 rating.
Understood.
Make no mistake about it. Quinn has more upside and potential than Frye. Joe Thomas is the key to this team. I beg for the second time in my last 4 posts - give Quinn time to develop. Don't treat him like Frye, Couch.......give him a fighting chance, after all - Phil did by giving him a rea LT.
I've never placed the entire blame on Frye. Truth be told, when we drafted Frye in the first place I thought we were being a bit dense. But, he seemed like a good kid and I thought what the hell, give him a chance.
Looking again at a few team statistics from last year, Cleveland's QB rating, 69.8, 29/32 in the NFL. We also were 27/32 with TDs (15). That was with two different QBs, so obviously Frye isn't the only cause, but he is A cause.
This season, if Frye starts...I'm behind him. I'm a Browns fan, not a Frye fan and before the draft the furthest possible thing from a Quinn fan. I want to see the Browns win football games. With an improved OL, our running game should improve, which means our passing game should improve (regardless of which QB we have taking snaps).
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 848 |
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Under Davidson (I used a QB calculater as Davidson was OC for 7 of Charlies games) he had a 77 rating.
Understood.
Make no mistake about it. Quinn has more upside and potential than Frye. Joe Thomas is the key to this team. I beg for the second time in my last 4 posts - give Quinn time to develop. Don't treat him like Frye, Couch.......give him a fighting chance, after all - Phil did by giving him a rea LT.
....... I want to see the Browns win football games. With an improved OL, our running game should improve, which means our passing game should improve (regardless of which QB we have taking snaps).
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373 |
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at those interception ratio numbers. That is probably one of the worst statistical manipulations I've ever seen.
Here are a few more fun ones since we're tossing out BS stats.
TD:INT ratio
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 1.667
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 0.609
How about QB rating?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 77.3, 93.9
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 69.8, 72.2
Yards?
Carson Palmer (first 2 seasons - 29 games): 6733
Charlie Frye (first 2 seasons 20 games): 3456
Next time you want to throw names of proven players in a list, make sure they don't dominate a scrub like Frye in ever other statistical category.
Palmer sat the bench his 1st year, so how could he have played in 29 games? That makes all your stats wrong. Please try again.
at you trying to compare Palmer in his 2nd and 3rd years in the NFL to Frye in his 1st and 2nd.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?playerId=4459
Learn2Read.
Again you might what to learn to read, Palmer was drafted in 2003. Palmer didn't see the field in 2003 as a rookie. You tried to compare Palmer's 2nd and 3rd years in the NFL to Frye's 1st and 2nd.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
well, another way to look at it since we're all about skewing our perception with numbers is that he is directly comparing their first 2 years on the field.
There, now the comparison is valid.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373 |
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There, now the comparison is valid.
Only in your book.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Brady Quinn > Charlie Frye. That should be the end of the discussion 
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373 |
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Brady Quinn > Charlie Frye.
That should be the end of the discussion
Maybe in the future, but not right now.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage: Quinn no Boller - Canton
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