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For some reason I think that everybody already knows that Brady isnt Kyle Boller. It was an agressive move by Philno doubt but not as risky as some are making it out to be. Anytime you take a QB with the plan on him being the future it is risky. Considering where we got BQ, even with the traded 1st rounder it was worth it. 
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There, now the comparison is valid.
Only in your book.
I don't see how... how can Palmer's first two years on the field not be comparable to Frye's? It is just as valid a stat comparison as ANY you have floated.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Brady Quinn > Charlie Frye.
That should be the end of the discussion 
Maybe in the future, but not right now.
Brady could come in day 1 and be an upgrade over Charlie.
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Brady Quinn > Charlie Frye.
That should be the end of the discussion
Maybe in the future, but not right now.
I agree with this for one reason: Quinn hasn't taken the field this year and neither has Charlie.
They both have a new offense, a new OC, a new OLine and a new Runningback.
So, the only thing to do is to either not judge them (the wise road) or to judge based on past performances (the fools errand this thread is on now).
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Hey kids, welcome to football 101.
1. A QB will NOT be successful in the NFL without an o-line.
2. A QB will RARELY (1 out of 100) be successfull in the NFL without a running game.
3. QBs who get hit the most in the NFL are going to lose any sense of pocket presense they had. Habits are formed under a repetetive nature. IF you are getting hit repeatedly, eventually you will learn to get away from it (ie. leave the pocket early).
4. QBs on awful teams will NOT put up stellar numbers.
5. QBs surrounded with talent, will look like they are better than they are (see Tony Romo, he sucks).
6. QBs are a TINY TINY TINY part of a TEAM.
7. No o-line+no run game = death.
8. O-line + run game = successful QB (see Phillip Rivers.)
Look at the TEAMS the QBs are playing for. For instance. Compare Palmer to Frye.
Got to sit year #1
Then, QB Palmer - LT Levi Jones, RB Rudi Johnson, WR Chad Johnson
FACT: Carthon wasn't fit to be a pee-wee teams OC.
Frye - LT Kevin Shaffer, RB Reuben Droughns, WR Braylon Edwards
Who came into a better situation?
Frye's 1st year in the NFL.
LT Shelton, RB Droughns, WR ROOKIE Braylon Edwards
Quinns first year
LT Joe Thomas, RB Jamal Lewis, WR 3rd year Braylon Edwards
Again I ask: who came into a better situation?
Most of this stuff isn't comparable QB wise alone. I always brought it up to show Quinn lovers that we needed Thomas way more than Quinn (Phil Savage obviously agrred). Frye wasn't a bad QB, he had no line. Finally, we are bringing in a QB under the right circumstances. Surround the QB with talent, don't throw him to a pack of lines with no protection and raw meat around his neck.
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Yep. QBs are completely irrelevant to the game of football. Phil should just let me play QB since anyone can be successful with a good line. 
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yup, all of that is very, very true... and yet folks will still toss out a single stat of a quarterback to point to his worth 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Its true that good good O-Line's and good running games can make a QB better, but Soup is basically trying to say the QB position is irrelevant and it doesn't matter who's playing there as long as we have a good O-Line and good running game.
If that was the case, Kyle Boller would have been a stud.
Last edited by TopDawg16; 05/04/07 01:04 PM.
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you're overreacting to what he posted... he's pointing out that a QB is just a cog in the mahine.
Yes, like ANY cog, if it does exceptionally well, it can make the whole machine rnu better... but all you really need is a cog that can just get the job it is supposed to do, done.
My retort is acknowledging that the QB is merely a cog, and citing how ridiculous it is to post a single stat of the job the cog is doing when the cog doing it is dependant on the entire machine. THIS is why stats are generally considered for losers, because they are so often misused or misunderstood or just flat out presented in a narrow focus to present a desired view.
That said, this whole thing is moot. The end result is damn near written in stone, it's just a matter of how we get to it now.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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There, now the comparison is valid.
Only in your book.
I don't see how... how can Palmer's first two years on the field not be comparable to Frye's? It is just as valid a stat comparison as ANY you have floated.
I did make a bad choice on WHO I selected from his list. I only chose Palmer because the Bengals were in a similar postion to the one we are at the moment.
Comparing stats in the first place on these guys is somewhat worthless. There are too many other factors to make a good comparison. The only thing that matters really is team wins. We had 4 last season, our team needs to improve.
And Mensa I can read just fine. "Drafted: Year:2003 Round:1 Pick:1, Bengals" right on the page I was using. It's just somewhat hard to compare a season on the bench to games played on the field. There IS something to be said for a QB who sits his first season out. They are supposed to be "more prepared". If you compare only their first seasons of PLAYING they ARE actually pretty comparable. So, how much did that year sitting help him, if at all?
Frye got stuck in a bad position. Veteran QBs leaving, OC changes, etc. If anything we need to give both of these QBs a chance under an offensive plan that doesn't change every 30 seconds, then we can draw a comparison. As it were, if Quinn wins the starting job, we may never get to make that comparison. Of course, everyone will say "OMG QUINN IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN FRYE", which isn't completely fair. The team dynamics will be changing yet again to the point where even those comparisons can't really be made.
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I agree with you over stats. Very few stats mean anything. I've come up with my assessment on Quinn vs. Frye based on the film I have seen on Quinn and Frye. And I feel like Quinn is capable of doing MUCH more than Frye with the exact same team around him.
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Its true that good good O-Line's and good running games can make a QB better, but Soup is basically trying to say the QB position is irrelevant and it doesn't matter who's playing there as long as we have a good O-Line and good running game.
If that was the case, Kyle Boller would have been a stud.
I'll try this one more time.
Did we have an o-line last year?
Now, name me 3 great QBs who played behind a horrendous line.
Now name me 20 great QBs who played behind great lines.
QB is not irrelevant -- but garbage QBs (Leftwich, Gerard, Romo) look half decent with lines and running games. TEAMS are more important than the QB, not the other way around (still trying to find the 1st of your great QBs that played behind a garbage line?). You CANNOT get your "franchise QB" without getting the line started first. While you mull over the questions above - ask yourself, why is it easier to name 20 than to name 3?
Then think:
1999-2006, every o-line the Browns had sucked. 11 QBs got injured.
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Its true that good good O-Line's and good running games can make a QB better, but Soup is basically trying to say the QB position is irrelevant and it doesn't matter who's playing there as long as we have a good O-Line and good running game.
If that was the case, Kyle Boller would have been a stud.
True. QB's aren't everything, we've seen that since we've been back, but they're huge.
Savage said this on WTAM on Monday: "I know how bad it is when you don't have a QB. We had everything but a QB in Baltimore. Do you know how hard it is to be stacked at every position, and how frustrating it is to have it all collapse because of bad QB play? With a good QB you can afford to have a couple weaknesses and still win."
QB is more than just a cog in the machine. It's not the end-all be-all, but it's still VERY significant.
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I agree with you on the fact that the O-Line can make QB's better. And I also agreed that we needed to address the line before we got a QB (which we did). But, to say the QB is a "tiny tiny tiny tiny part of a team" is wrong. If they are such a small part of a team, then Charlie Frye could have won a Super Bowl with Indianapolis last year? Why was Baltimore horrid with Kyle Boller?
Last edited by TopDawg16; 05/04/07 01:18 PM.
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he's pointing out that a QB is just a cog in the mahine.
thats WRONG ... its VERY VERY WRONG .... u guys are making things way to SIMPLE ..
the QB is by far the MOST IMPORTANT CLOG in the MACHINE .. and its not even close .. and i mean the ENTIRE MACHINE .... D INCLUDED ...
the SKILL SET of your QB is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR on any NFL team ...
just ask Chicago about how important a QB is ... they'll tell U ...
and without Manning ... NO WAY THE COLTS EVEN MAKE THE SUPER BOWL .. not even close ...
u guys are right in the MOST SIMPLISTIC of ways .. the QB can only be as good as his supporting cast .. well DUH ...
just look at the QB's that won the last 10 Super Bowls .. your gonna see a WHOS WHO of QB's in NFL history ,.. and then Dilfer .. *LOL* ... theres a reason for that ..
QB IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POSITION ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD .. the proof .. as is true in ANYTHING IN LIFE .. just FOLLOW THE $$$$$$$$$$ ...
just another cog in the machine???  ....
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Name me 3 great QBs who played behind horrible o-lines.
Name me 20 great QBs who played behind great o-lines.
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and Pssst .. the 2nd highest paid position in the NFL is now ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . LT ..... why is that .. cause they protect the MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER on the team ... 
Last edited by DiamDawg; 05/04/07 01:27 PM.
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No one is arguing that Soup. But, saying that the QB is a tiny part of a team is just wrong. Can you honestly tell me that Indy would have won the Super Bowl if they had Charlie Frye instead of Peyton Manning? If the QB is such a small part of a team, then that would be true. Also, tell me why Couch played better in Cleveland than Charlie has, behind a FAR worse O-Line and a FAR worse running game? 
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is this in print somewhere or did u just summarize off the top of your head?? Quote:
"I know how bad it is when you don't have a QB. We had everything but a QB in Baltimore. Do you know how hard it is to be stacked at every position, and how frustrating it is to have it all collapse because of bad QB play? With a good QB you can afford to have a couple weaknesses and still win."
same could be said for Chicago this year ... and MANY MANY OTHER teams throughout the course of NFL history ,...
but if this is in print i sure would like to see it ... please let me know ..
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No one is arguing that Soup. But, saying that the QB is a tiny part of a team is just wrong. Can you honestly tell me that Indy would have won the Super Bowl if they had Charlie Frye instead of Peyton Manning? If the QB is such a small part of a team, then that would be true.
Also, tell me why Couch played better in Cleveland than Charlie has, behind a FAR worse O-Line and a FAR worse running game?
Because Charlies lines were worse than Couch's in the playoff year and the OC Charlie played under for half the season (which you keep forgetting) wouldn't let the QBs do anything- SITUATION. You kids just don't get it. IF Frye went into Mannings situation, the one thing I do know - he'd have been able to develop his pocket presence as he'd have had a pocket to stand in. Manning with our line would have been smooshed as he's not a scrambler. For every Manning there's a Jeff Hostettler, just remember that.
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just ask Chicago about how important a QB is ... they'll tell U ...
I guess Chicago's QB hurt them so much that they went 13-3 in the regular season and made it all the way to the Super Bowl. Wow, their QB really made them stink.
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just look at the QB's that won the last 10 Super Bowls .. your gonna see a WHOS WHO of QB's in NFL history ,.. and then Dilfer .. *LOL* ... theres a reason for that ..
Here's the QB's that have won the last 10 Super Bowls
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Trent Dilfer
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Looks like they all are going straight to the HOF. 
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is this in print somewhere or did u just summarize off the top of your head??
Quote:
"I know how bad it is when you don't have a QB. We had everything but a QB in Baltimore. Do you know how hard it is to be stacked at every position, and how frustrating it is to have it all collapse because of bad QB play? With a good QB you can afford to have a couple weaknesses and still win."
same could be said for Chicago this year ... and MANY MANY OTHER teams throughout the course of NFL history ,...
but if this is in print i sure would like to see it ... please let me know ..
it's off the top of my head, I don't know if it's in the Triv archives, but he basically said that and hit on all those points, the wording is just different.
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just ask Chicago about how important a QB is ... they'll tell U ...
I guess Chicago's QB hurt them so much that they went 13-3 in the regular season and made it all the way to the Super Bowl. Wow, their QB really made them stink.
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just look at the QB's that won the last 10 Super Bowls .. your gonna see a WHOS WHO of QB's in NFL history ,.. and then Dilfer .. *LOL* ... theres a reason for that ..
Here's the QB's that have won the last 10 Super Bowls
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Trent Dilfer
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Looks like they all are going straight to the HOF.
Including Rex Grossman, who good were all their o-lines?  Oops, looks like the QB is a part of the machine.
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No one is arguing that Soup. But, saying that the QB is a tiny part of a team is just wrong. Can you honestly tell me that Indy would have won the Super Bowl if they had Charlie Frye instead of Peyton Manning? If the QB is such a small part of a team, then that would be true.
Also, tell me why Couch played better in Cleveland than Charlie has, behind a FAR worse O-Line and a FAR worse running game?
Because Charlies lines were worse than Couch's in the playoff year and the OC Charlie played under for half the season (which you keep forgetting) wouldn't let the QBs do anything- SITUATION. You kids just don't get it. IF Frye went into Mannings situation, the one thing I do know - he'd have been able to develop his pocket presence as he'd have had a pocket to stand in. Manning with our line would have been smooshed as he's not a scrambler. For every Manning there's a Jeff Hostettler, just remember that.
Just throwing this out there too...since that seems to be the fun thing to do on Friday here at work... (this has nothing to do with Frye or Quinn...I just found it interesting...)
Manning's first season wasn't exactly earth changing. His rating did jump from 71.2 to 90.7 in his second season though  He's also had only 2 seasons under 4000 yards AND his first season he threw more INTs than TDs
I honestly believe Manning is one of the best QBs to ever play the game. He just fits with the Colts and the relationship he has with his receivers is incredible.
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Manning's first season wasn't exactly earth changing. His rating did jump from 71.2 to 90.7 in his second season though
I wonder if that's a good enough stat for Mensa since Manning played in his rookie season just like Charlie. Charlie's rating went down from year 1 to year 2.
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just ask Chicago about how important a QB is ... they'll tell U ...
I guess Chicago's QB hurt them so much that they went 13-3 in the regular season and made it all the way to the Super Bowl. Wow, their QB really made them stink.
Quote:
just look at the QB's that won the last 10 Super Bowls .. your gonna see a WHOS WHO of QB's in NFL history ,.. and then Dilfer .. *LOL* ... theres a reason for that ..
Here's the QB's that have won the last 10 Super Bowls
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Trent Dilfer
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Looks like they all are going straight to the HOF.
Their QB killed them in the Superbowl. That's for sure. Chicago was the better all around team and Grossman killed them.
Tom Brady = HOF
Peyton = HOF
Ben = if he recovers, HOF
Kurt Warner = was on his way before his thumb derailed him.
Brad Johnson = one of the most underappreciated QB's of this decade. The Bucs O sucked when any other QB was in the game.
Elway = HOF
Only one on there who truly sucked was Dilfer.
And like Savage said on WTAM, do you know how hard it is to be THAT stacked at every position like the Ravens were that year? Every team will have weaknesses, a good QB and a good offensive line is the best way to mask it.
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I guess Chicago's QB hurt them so much that they went 13-3 in the regular season and made it all the way to the Super Bowl. Wow, their QB really made them stink.
*LOL* ... u just proved how little u truely know ...
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Here's the QB's that have won the last 10 Super Bowls
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Trent Dilfer
Tom Brady
Brad Johnson
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Looks like they all are going straight to the HOF.
well lets see here .... the list should ACTUALLY BE ...
Elway
Elway
Warner
Dilfer
Brady
Brady
Johnson
Brady
Ben
Manning ...
so that means 60% of them are GOING RIGHT TO THE HOF .... with Ben an unknown as he's only going into his 3rd year ... so it could be 70% of them going directly to the HOF ...
and the one before Elways 1st was won by a guy name FAVRE .... pretty sure he'll be a first time HOFer ....
but hey ... QB is just a cog in the machine ... well that is if u DON'T' CARE ABOUT WINNING THE SB .....
your an even bigger waste of time than I thought .. and thats pretty tough to do cause i thought u were a PRETTY BIG WASTE OF TIME to begin with ... *LOL* ...
go to soups house and u two can cry together ... while the rest of us LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING A QB THAT CAN LEAD US TO THE SB ....
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go to soups house and u two can cry together ... while the rest of us LOOK FORWARD TO HAVING A QB THAT CAN LEAD US TO THE SB ....
Low blow to Soup there. Soup from what I've seen actually participates in a healthy debate with some knowledge on what he's talking about.
Plus, everytime I read his name I get hungry, be nice to Soup
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Soup from what I've seen actually participates in a healthy debate with some knowledge on what he's talking about.
Yeah, but he's just wrong on this 
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Soup from what I've seen actually participates in a healthy debate with some knowledge on what he's talking about.
I guess u and I have different definitions and levels of what knowledge is .. anyone who isn't intelligent enough to know that the QB is much more than just a cog in the machine doesnt even pass the minimum requirments for me ..
CLUELESS is the adjetive or noun i would use ... not knowledgable ..
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Soup from what I've seen actually participates in a healthy debate with some knowledge on what he's talking about.
I guess u and I have different definitions and levels of what knowledge is .. anyone who isn't intelligent enough to know that the QB is much more than just a cog in the machine doesnt even pass the minimum requirments for me ..
CLUELESS is the adjetive or noun i would use ... not knowledgable ..
Every player/coach can be considered a cog in the machine. Some cogs in machines are bigger than others (or made from better metals? ). If even the smallest of cogs breaks though, what happens to the machine? Kaboom!
You need an offensive unit that meshes and flows well together. We haven't had that in quite some time.
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anyone who isn't intelligent enough
and
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CLUELESS is the adjetive
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Phil agreed with you because he got Thomas first and BQ second? How does that make you right as you never argued that? All you ever argued was that Frye could do the job. Well, I would say Phil proved you wrong as drafting BQ went against everything you ever said on the situation. Yet somehow in your illogical mind that made you right? Okay....LMAO.
I am not sure how you could have been proven more wrong. Charlie is clearly not the QB you have made him out to be for the last 5 months. If he was, we would not have drafted BQ no matter who the LT was.
And Diam said he wanted BQ but, would be "smiling ear to ear" if we got Thomas. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't get it, especially considering the man crush Diam has on BQ. Diam has pimped OL and LT for the 5 years I have been around on the various boards. He is the original OL/LT, "trenches win football games" pimp. No one wanted the OL and LT addressed more than he did. The proof is that he said he would be fine with Joe over the golden boy who he has a man crush on. You're dreaming soup.
How you twist things is amazing. I guess it doesn't matter how wrong your logic is as long as it makes you happy and gets you though the day, as thats all that truly counts, I'm sure.
I hate to say it soup but someone has to ... Diam was right and you were wrong .. AS USUAL ...
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You should know, you invented them. We've just perfected them for you.
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last i knew it took two to be in a contest ... and i'm not in the contest so that sounds more like soup is just peeing into the wind .. *LOL* ... and at least I spelled noun right .. u gotta start somewhere ...
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At some point we all have to stop looking at stats and just look at the skillset, both physical and mental, of the QBs.
Who do you think has the better skillset to be an NFL QB, Charlie Frye or Brady Quinn?
Oh no doubt I said either QB in this draft has better skillsets..
Russell or Quinn..Quinn is just better prepared to come in..
Neither has the physical liabilities that Frye does..
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Thanks Jules .. at least i know one person reads and pays attention to what i post ... I appreciatte it .... now u need to dig a foxhole and get your sturdiest helmet on as i am sure that one dumb ass response is on its way ... *LOL* ...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341 |
clicking, attack. This is great, honestly it's fun to read these QB board battles now, because msot of us know who the clear cut starter is, and his name ain't Charlie. Maybe not now, but by September. Charlie isn't going to to suddenly blossom because IMO he doens't have an NFL arm... decent backup though. All that aside, it's really been a fun week to be a Browns fan. We got the big stud I wanted at #3, and then Brady Quinn, to boot. I only wish my home computer hadn't crapped out, I miss being a board regular. Cheers, dawgs.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Well what probably will happen unless a vet is brought in..I see Quinn pushing Frye in TC and preseason..then I see Frye starting UNTIL HE BOGS down soooo much he has to be sat down.. Now that should be by the first quarter against Pitt  Seriously Quinn will get PT probably around the bye week . I think the plan is to bring him along slowly ..at least let the line get time to work together and showcase Frye for another team
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Savage: Quinn no Boller - Canton
Repository Article
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