DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns sign Tramon Williams

That's all I need to hear. Nice pickup Brown's

FYP - I can see the defense picking up where it left off and becoming a force in the league. However, I don't see the offense keeping pace. I would love to see the old B'more approach of a nasty defense and a pounding ground attack to win games. I'm just not sold that the offense is ready yet. I hope I'm wrong.

I believe that as well. However, look for the improvement to show in the latter half of the season...once the new schemes are installed.

We had an older CB here a few years ago in Sheldon Brown. He filled in nicely for a couple of years. He too was an older veteran with a solid resume'.

While I didn't like the numbers he had in 2014 which were posted earlier in this thread, I'm not going to just shoot down this signing. We needed a band aid for a year or two until someone develops into that outside CB opposite Haden or one can be found. Which ever the case may be.

Well they signed one. Considering the successful number of targets against him and the percentage of success when passing against him, I will say I'm concerned. But I certainly hope for the best.

I did see one comment that went something like this........

"Well people complained when they didn't sign anyone and now they complain that they did."

Signing any warm body isn't always a good thing. Based on his numbers last year I can see why some would be concerned about his age and possible regression. Every signing isn't a good one so no need to lambast people just because the body they filled the position with isn't someone they see worthy of the signing.

Everyone isn't a sheeple.

He also graded out as a positive 1.3 while Buster was a negative 6.2 so he appears to be an upgrade over what we had.

Now $2 mil better?... open for debate

Well it can be said he graded out better and that's all fine and well. But I would like to see how he compares to these numbers before buying into some grading system...



I mean if people can't actually see how this may cause concern on the part of some fans, or claim they're way of base by their concerns, I believe that to be quite disingenuous.

What it shows is a big drop off from an aging 32 year old CB. Now this may turn out to be an aberration, but when you combine age with what appears to be diminishing skills, I certainly don't fault those with big concerns.

So PFF is good with their bad bumnbers but suspect on their good numbers.

Seriously, I undestand what you are saying and yeah he probably is on the backside of his career, but even in his worst year he graded out better than the person he replaced... that is all I am pointing out.

I don't believe you are reading my posts.

I spoke of how Sheldon Brown came in and did a fine job in a similar situation. I also wrote that I wasn't going to shoot down this signing. It seems that's the part you're missing here.

However, I did say considering the numbers I quoted, I did understand why some fans would have some concerns. The set of numbers above are factual statistics, a grade is much more vague.

Now I hope that you will consider everything I posted in full, not simply bits and pieces of it.

Mary Kay fell for a fake account.

I guess my saying I understand where you are coming from and agreeing that is he indeed on the back side of his caeer is cause for concern doesn't mean anything.

Oh well, ....yeah your right.

I really wasnt arguing with anyone merely trying to point out he seems better than who he replaced..... but ....nevermind

I like that you use Sheldon Brown as your example.

His first year was BRUTAL. I'm pretty sure we signed him only because of that one hit he had on Reggie Bush when he was still with the Saints. The guy looked like he could only manage a 10.4 40, he was so agonizingly slow. He got torched all season long.

Despite that first year, Brown was a pretty decent pickup when you look at what he did over his entire time here in Cleveland. He was definitely on the downside of his career, but he was still able to contribute despite his diminished skillset.

What is an inside/outside corner and how do each differ?

I assume the outside corner is your fastest and most athletic corner who covers the number 1 WR?
The inside corners are your less skilled corners who cover the number 2 and 3 WR's?

Thanks for any comments.

In a nutshell, your inside/slot guy has to be very quick and tough in order to stay with his man in short areas to cover quick hitting passes and has to be able to defend in two directions laterally. The receiver can cut in or out and the ball is there in a blink of an eye. Also, there are a lot of big bodies that come through there, so he has to be strong, can take a hit, and can make a tackle. Quickness, toughness, and reaction time over speed and size.

Outside corner is a guy who in most cases doesn't need the same aptitude of physicality (though it helps of course). Typically longer guys who can contest jump balls or deeper passes in general. Recovery speed is actually meaningful since the ball has to travel longer distances in the air and typically at more of an arc, and top end speed is needed to stay with the receiver in downfield routes. Jumping, long speed, and size desired over tackling and quickness.

That's very rudimentary and I'm sure guys understand it better than me. That's just my basic point of view on it. Know it when I see it I think.

He's just referring to the difference in perimeter CB's and nickles. Ideally your perimeter CB is your stud. He can't have enough skill but is ideally long to combat the taller perimeter WR's that can go up and win 50/50 battles.

Your nickle CB's usually thrives in the slot matching up against smaller quicker slot WRs. Again the more talented the better but usually they end up being shorter, quicker and most importantly agile. The QB is not often going to loft the ball to a slot WR so length is of lesser importance when combating a WR who is primarily a "Wes Welker" type.

Clearly an upgrade over Skrine.

ESPN rates Tramon Williams a B+.

And they are really stingy.

WOW! Our defense is really taking shape.

Thanks clevesteve and predator16. Very good analysis of the corner position.

Shoot Eo, we have a plan. As much as some like to think we have a bunch of boobs in charge, they have a plan. And yes, I know you know that if my comment wasn't clear.

IMO this was a lackluster FA class. Next to Suh who is as good as it gets, it was a few decent players getting huge contracts and a bunch of players like the Browns signed. Good players who can help their team for a year or three.

Williams has been a solid pro player, as has Starks. Both are getting a little long in the tooth, but both still seem to have some mileage in them. They are like a used car with 120k on them. Not new by any means, and not a car you plan to keep all that long, but they are still good enough you don't look like a jerk driving them around and seem pretty reliable.

I think it was covered well by Cleve and P16.

I would add that an inside CB has to be able to stick and push... what I mean by that is imagine a player in a back pedal against a receiver coming at him, as Cleve noted that receiver can cut left or right... the CB has to be able to stick his foot in reaction to that cut and push off quickly,... closing speed to recover, zero to 100 if you will out of that stick is paramount.

The outside CB needs more fluid hips to be able to turn out of his back pedal in reaction to a receiver going by him

Buster IMO does not have hips as fluid as you would like to see on the outside.. hence he has a tendency to grab... however his core strength ( stick and push), his willingness to tackle and his excellent zero to 100 speed out of the stick makes him ideal on the inside

So he may just be a one year player

Spotrac says dead cap hit, if cut is $3.8M vs $7M total cap hit. So yeah, he might very well be. If that is true, I like how this deal is structured. Much is contingent on Gilbert, Williams, and Desir.

Aaron Wilson ‏@RavensInsider 53m53 minutes ago
Tramon Williams three-year, $21 million Browns deal, $10M gtd, $1.5M bnonus, salaries $3.7M, $6.2M, $5.7M; 2015, 2016 bases gtd

If this is true, he would have a $7.2 million cap hit if cut before 2016 season.

10 mil dead cap if cut this year. 3.8 dead cap if cut in 2016.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/tramon-williams/

OK, that's better details that the tweet. The spotrac page says only $2.8 million of 2016 salary is guaranteed... the tweet said 2016 salary was guaranteed.

Hence "if true," lol. Thanks for the link.

So he got less guaranteed than Skrine, but not by much (Skrine got $13 million guaranteed).

If given the choice between the choice between Skrine and his contract or Williams and is contract, I would take Skrine. Our staff knows him and he still has some upside. We either didn't want Skrine or he he didn't want to be here.

I don't think having Williams at this price is a bad situation though.

$10M g'teed for Williams. I forget was Skrine rec'd.

You are correct sir! Skrine got $13 million guaranteed.

It could also be one year if you look a bit more at the numbers.

To cut Williams in 2016 would cost the Browns $3.8M in dead money. To pay him would be $7M. So it'll really come down to the maturation of the younger guys and cost-benefit. Does it makes a sense to save essentially $3.2M cap space in 2016 and go with the younger guys?

$10M guaranteed (signing bonus + 2015 roster bonus + 2015 base + $2.8M of 2016 base). And I believe the extra $1M to the cap hit would be coming from the two $500,000 signing bonuses increments in 2016 and 2017.

The hit in 2017 would be $500,000, the final portion of his signing bonus, after paying him $7M in 2015.

Well, he is a corner. He's getting a little long in the tooth, but a corner is a corner. An average signing. Not a savior, not a bum. In this defense corner isn't just everything, it's the only thing. Hopefully, they will either sign or draft a couple more.

Considering that it is coming from you, Spirit. it amounts to a virtual endorsement...j/k

I am good drafting a corner or two every year. Teams need 3-4 and usually have a hard time finding 2-3 that are actually pretty good. The point is you can always use another good cornerback.


Keep bringing them in to replace the other guys who move on or need to move on.

Most pass breakups since 2010:
1. Joe Haden - 87
2. Tramon Williams - 82

Key stats

well we should cut/trade joe haden. we are over paying him right?

no i'm saying tramon is second in the league to only joe. that is darn good

Yes....clearly that is what he is suggesting.

If Gilbert can progress this year we could have a very dangerous secondary. If we can draft a really good DT then we could have one hell of a defense.

I really don't see what there is that could be done to fix the offense this season. If there isn't a QB to be had then there is nothing that can be done about it. I wish we had traded for Foles though.

I'm sorry but I disagree. I think losing Skrine is a drop-off! JMHO Go Brownies!!!