DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What did we learn about the Cleveland Browns at the NFL meetings?

Oh, man! Now we're bringing cows into this discussion as well?

Sorry, bugs. I had to do it....

We are in the most competitive league in the ENTIRE WORLD. NO ONE is going to tank a season before it begins. Any given Sunday.

tell the colts that.

I dont think think they tanked they were what they were. A bad team with a great QB, and when he left, they were a bad team.

The current Colts team, minus Luck, is not even a .500 team.

Whoopss...I hate spell check even if it saves me from time to time!!! Good Spot!

I doubt it. His post actually made sense.

I guess it's all in how you define "stabilized". There will be no animosity or bad blood in the QB room this season. By that definition it's stabilized compared to last year.

I think Hoyer held a strong, negative attitude toward Manzel by his own admission. You don't want that kind of dynamic within any position group. QB especially. Last season the QB situation was rocky at best. I think that is the major reason the FO didn't want Hoyer in the mix.

Call it what you will, define it however you wish, in regards to the QB's as a group the situation has been "stabilized" with the release of Hoyer and the addition of McCown.



How about we leave my NUTS out of it. They've become sensitive to negative remarks in my old age.

You believe wrongly, but I will do you one better. Lets assume what you say is true (which it isn't). Lets for the sake of argument assume your correct.

Here is Hoyer putting in the work and playing and performing at a much higher level constantly not receiving the backing form the FO or the coaches for that matter in favor of a lazy drunk. Now I have labeled JF a lazy drunk, am I wrong? Hoyer worked his tail off JF laid on his ass with a drink in his hand right or wrong?

Now we are all suppose to be all happy because the FO has set it up for JF to be the man on the field. Now ask yourself why wouldn't I be all happy? Why wouldn't I believe we are screwed. Of course McCown is better then Hoyer, McCown had real weapons around him last season to work with in the weakest division in the NFL and he could muster up a solid 1-10 record. I can see why he was the better option then Hoyer. And now it hits me why you believe that the QB situation is stabilized.

The truth, the real truth is the FO viewed Hoyer as a problem in the locker room and in the seats. When JF falls on his face the players in the locker room will have to roll with JF and Hoyer won't be a problem, and when the fans grow increasingly anti JF there will be no Hoyer to fall back on. Will have to face down losing so it become sink or swim for JF and the Browns, there will be NO plan B.

Hoyer was the leader both on the field and in the locker room the players loved him, and the FO views that as a problem and that is the reason Hoyer isn't here. He was a team guy no matter how hard fans like yourself TRY to demonize the guy.

But he isn't here and I believe that placing the fate of the season in JF hands after what he did last season (lazy drunk) is foolish, not based on what you or others would LIKE to believe but based off what he showed and what he did. At this point I can judge him based on what he did. He was Lazy (by his own admit ion, and he was a or is a drunk). He played like crap based on what I saw, he was a disappointment all the way around and you can't blame that on Hoyer.



You want to ignore everything and stick your head in the sand and wish for the best, I get it are you ready for what is likely coming?

I'm certainly NOT saying JF can't turn it around but man its pretty damned unlikekly don't you think?

you realize as well as hoyer played at the beginning of the season, he single handedly played us out of the playoffs last year, right?

You're talking about this guy like he was the second coming of manning. he's not. Hell, Kyle Orton got the bills to 9 wins, Hoyer couldn't even do that. If he can't even play at an Orton level, then we should keep him around because.....

Until we had a better option he was our best option. To think after 16 starts and 10-6 record to go with it that Hoyer had hit his ceiling is short sighted IMO.

JF didn't even come close to showing anything at ALL yet we should hang the fate of the team on his shoulders and run with it. JF shouldn't have to show anything what-so-ever but he should be the starter not because he is better, but because we cleared out all possible competition for him and I object. Last year PET said that it was all about everyone competing for the starting gig, right.

Do you think thats still true?

They can put all the lipstick on this pig they and you want but its still a pig, and an obvious pig at that.

yea...I'm right. Cause if he played like he did the first half of the season, we would be in the playoffs.

it's really that simple.

You assume so much, I wish I had your inside info

lol....

so why did JF end up starting those games?

Cause last time i checked, JF didn't start magically because Pettine felt like doing a good deed.

you're making it seem like it just randomly happened, instead of telling the TRUTH: Hoyer played like trash, played his OWN self out of the starting position.

We have a really bad habit of defending bums on this team once they leave.

Hoyer is gone. he ended up playing like trash. If he was good, he'd still be here.

let it go.

If NOT for Hoyer we are NOT 7-4 to begin with.

If Hoyer played like trash then what was it that we saw from JF that we all should sign up for more of him? Why should anyone believe in JF is what I'm getting at.

I have no problem with JF being the starter, I do however have a problem with him being the starter and NOT earning it, and I have a problem with the FACT that we have no plan B if he plays like he did last year.

I will do you one better. IF (not likely) JF can replicate what Hoyer did last season this upcoming season I would be thrilled to death.

That said want to bet we don't even get a whiff of being on the winning side of the ledger? Want to bet we don't win more then 2 games, and if we only win 2 games are you and I suppose to be all happy?

I will make you prediction right now this team will struggle to win just 2 games next year with JF starting and if McCown is the starter will get the 1st pick in the draft just like the Bucs are this year. Oddly enough McCown was their starter last year.

To me the real question here is this. Is McCown better then Hoyer or hell is JUF better then Hoyer and to date niether has shown they can hold trashy Hoyer's jock, and we ditched Hoyer for McCown how sad is that?

Hoyer was benched for a REASON!

Case closed.

sorry Mac, dude played himself out of the starter role. There's zero conspiracy, unless you think Hoyer started playing like trash on purpose.

I'm still pissed about that Colts game.

Thats the thing BTTB, I don't have much faith in Manziel either.

I dunno if you do, but i surely have none.

But just because option A played better than option B, doesn't mean they played any good, which also means we shouldn't keep option A around just because he's better than B.

You get rid of both of them.

Will McCown play better than Hoyer? Nobody has that answer. For all we know, we get the Bucs version. For all we know, we get the Bears version.

I mean seriously, if Mccown gets us 2 games next season, thats horrible. but hoyer is good for 7....that still sucks, because we won't get into the playoffs with ANY of them if that happened.

personally, I would give up both 1st for Winston. but thats just me.

what is there to say about manziel's performance?

Dude, thats what you don't get. There's nothing to say about manziel's performance because EVERYBODY agrees he was trash.

Not much of a discussion there.

that is the point. getting rid of players that played better and keeping players that played like trash.

hoyer played better. yes.

Manziel played like Trash. Hoyer played like McDonalds wrappers.

what an upgrade.

This.

If we had below average QB play that day, like a 3-4 on a scale of 1 to 10, we win that game. Heck, bad QB play and we win that game.

I'm with Swish. Hoyer played himself out of the starting gig. We were lucky to have him when he played his best ball. We caught lightning in a bottle with Hoyer. He is a journeyman and a backup. Sometimes that what guys are, not knocking him.

as much as i disagreed with throwing manziel in, you people cant act like the coaches knew he was going to perform worse than hoyer.

the way hoyer was playing, they felt HE was playing us out of the playoffs. we couldnt afford, at that moment, to let him just keep playing poorly, we had to try and do something to get ourselves a win.

sure, in retrospect it didnt work out that way, but they had a QB they felt was worth a first rounder sitting on the bench, while the starter was playing horribly.

If they didn't then we have the wrong folks running this team period.

1- They knew he wasn't putting in the work, and even JF said so himself.

2- They knew he was absent from the facility when he wasn't mandated to be there. He was thirsty I guess.

They knew he knew they choose for whatever reason (Haslam) to play him, and he flopped and they knew he would.

Here is my problem with JF, he says all the right things but his action don't match his words and that fact isn't lost on his teammates I can guarantee you that.

I maintain to this day had this organization shown Hoyer any level of honest support he would have played better. He played great up until the Cincy game and then things started to unravel for him. 1 word a true belief in him would have made a great deal of difference. But his support consisted of we will continue to evaluate the position from week to week. That's not support, that's standing in the shadows waiting to lower the hammer.

Put on top of that the fact that Hoyer took I think 1 day off after he began his rehab along with the riggers of starting for the 1st time and you have a player that is physically and mentally exhausted. Again I think good coaching would have made certain that he didn't wear down. The player may not understand how difficult it is to prepare and play a full season but the coaches should.

In the end I think we hand a guy who worked to hard and a guy who didn't work at ALL.

Hoyer is gone, I think it was a mistake to let him go, and especially so in light of not having a better option available. I know that folks like to say the book is closed on Hoyer he is this or that but he has started 1 seasons worth of games compiled a record of 10-6 and we toss that guy aside for what?

The reason Hoyer isn't here is because he wanted to start and the players in the locker room believed in him and rallied around him and management wants the team to rally around JF, and if I were them and I thought JF was my future and I was ready to move forward with him I would have let Hoyer go as well.

What they see in JF I will never know but its their call and their necks.

"I maintain to this day had this organization shown Hoyer any level of honest support he would have played better."

You guys need to stop with this nonsense.
He flat out stunk,I mean stunk of epic proportions.His biblical suckitude is the reason he's no longer here.Dry your eyes,change your diaper,he's gone,time to move on to the next chump.

Agreed. We are no worse with josh M. than BH. I honestly think we are a little better off with Josh just for his experience alone. JMO.

Sorry Tab I am not buying what your stepping in.

Yes he chocked when the organization should have stepped forward (like after the Cincy game) and said Brian your our man you have worked your tail off and delivered. Instead we/he got the we continue to evaluate the QB position on a week to week basis. I think that tact taken on by management wore on Hoyer. It was like what do I have to do to EARN these guys support and it just took its toll.

But this is NOT some new revelation for me I said it from the beginning of the season that these guys were mishandling the QB situation, and Bernie you know him he said the exact same thing. This franchise has bungled the QB situation for decades now and this is yet another example of just that.

The fact that Hoyer chocked is a reflection of management mishandling of the position. It's not like hey the guy never showed us nothing, he did so we KNOW its in him and I think good coaching and a pat on the back and encouragement and hey letting him know your in his corner would have helped, but that never happened. The only folks that truly showed Hoyer support were his pears and his team mates.

Some fans and management couldn't wait for him to fail, and in the end it got to Hoyer. He'll recoup and will be oh so sorry when we once again reap what we sow.

Sad

it's management's fault hoyer choked?

started having bad foot work? not reading the field? throwing some bone headed passes?

that cincy game, Deon started a pay da man campaign for HOYER. not manziel. HOYER. Dude was getting EVERY last ounce of respect he deserve.

Then the choke-fest started, and he went from above average, to eh, to "what the hell was that?"

The management gave this guy every last reason to make him believe it was his team. because it WAS.

Let's be honest here: fans was calling for this guy's head after the first half of the steelers game opening day. but MANAGEMENT decided not to pull a "2007" and put manziel in instead. they road with the guy. Even after that craptastic loss to the "at the moment" winless jaguars team, where Bortles literally went out of his way to hand us the W, management still road with him.

even after that craptasic first half of the Titans game, Management still road with him.

after that Houston game, management road with him.

after that crap Bills game, management road with him.

but that Colts game was it bro.

Stop it dude. Hoyer had nobody to blame but himself. the entire browns org gave this guy every last chance to succeed, and he crap the bed.

stop defending bums.

and Tab, i know you tried to throw Hoyer a bone with the mack injury,

but just to keep it in perspective, NOT counting the win against the steelers when Mack went down,

we STILL went 4-2 after the end of Falcons game.

not saying you Tab, but others can't use the Mack injury as a crutch.

It was ALL hoyer.

Your right swish it was all Hoyer 7-4 Hoyer..

Yes we can find fault with Hoyer but the support system within management has gone over and beyond for guys like Gordan, and Johnny, and west and on and on yet a hard working guy like 7-4 Hoyer he doesn't catch a break from anyone and you all wonder why I think your

I think I mentioned he was getting support from his pears and from his team mates management good management that is would have done the same, he deserved it and more importantly he earned it the problem I have with it is that he never got it even when he did well he didn't get it. You don't understand that because you don't want to...

Swish have you ever had a job where you felt like everyday might be your last? It wears on a person it really does and that is magnified x 10 when your in the public spot light.

Yes thats what you sign up for and your paid handsomely to boot but with all that said your still a human being never forget that simple truth. He we are all human we need a pat on the back a vote of confidence when our head is hanging low. Based on the posture and the public statements made by management (Pet) from the beginning of the season and after the Cincy game Hoyer never garnered support from within management and thats always the wrong way to get the best from any player especially a QB.

I won't mention that Gordon and Jordan both admitted to running the wrong routes after all thats still Hoyers fault right?

Instead we/he got the we continue to evaluate the QB position on a week to week basis.

Sorry I remember it different, that scenario you just drew up was after he had 3-4 bad games. Then the "MEDIA" not the Brown kept relenting on starting Manziel...in answer to the media the last couple weeks they said that...actually the first time I heard that part where they were going to discuss on who starts was after the Bills game when Manziel came in w/12 minutes left. They chose Hoyer and threw up a major stinker.

The other and last thing I will say... X factor, Y factor for CHOKING is a Loser's Mantra...Hoyer choked because of HOYER. The team having to actually think about replacing him as a starter...is not what made him PLAY BAD all of a sudden. It was because of his BAD PLAY the team had to start thinking about replacing him.

It was when he was THE GUY that Hoyer downfall happened. Not a SOUL...A SOUL was saying otherwise after that Bengal game we were first in our division 6-3??? Not a soul was suggesting it. Only later After he was playing bad.

jmho. Anyways onto bigger and better things.