What did we learn about the Cleveland Browns at the NFL meetings?
http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...he-nfl-meetings


PHOENIX -- What key things did I learn from spending time with the Cleveland Browns at the NFL owners meetings?

1) The Browns feel strongly that Josh McCown "stabilized" the quarterback position. Stabilized. General Manager Ray Farmer, coach Mike Pettine and owner Jimmy Haslam all used that word. The Browns believe McCown is the guy to bring order to the position. "He's proven that he can start in this league," Pettine said. The latter point could be argued, but it's clearly what the Browns feel. Or at least it's clearly what they say they feel. Pettine also said: "As we've talked about all along, when you surround your quarterback with the right scheme, and more importantly the right supporting cast, if you feel you have the right guy regardless of what the past history's been, if you feel you have a guy that can be credible for you and be functional, then you go ahead and make that move. That move we felt stabilized the position." There is nothing quite like being "stabilized."

2) A coach and GM can work together even after the GM texted coaches during games about in-game strategy. Pettine said at the combine he wasn't happy when he first learned of the text messages. A month later he said everyone was working well together and on the same page. Asked how that could be, he said: "If you talk to a lot of GMs, those three to four hours [during games] are among the most frustrating. There's going to be questions. 'Why are we doing this?' Fortunately Ray owns it and he chose that way as his outlet, but we get the opportunity to talk each week and we have our postgame audit and those questions get raised as well and we're not going to agree on everything 100 percent. But from a philosophy standpoint, we are very much on the same page. So it won't be 100 percent. Just like any other GM-head coach, it's not going to match perfectly. You're constantly in the process of educating each other, but we both feel like we're very much on the same page and we're moving forward to make this team better." Evidently the front office-coach relationship also has been … wait for it … stabilized.

3) The chances of trading up for Marcus Mariota never seemed lower, and the chances of a second-to-fourth round quarterback never seemed higher. Farmer said he covets numbers of draft picks. Haslam said the team would slowly but surely build more and more with the draft. Pettine was the only one to take it a little farther, saying quarterback was a position that justified giving up picks, but he likes having numbers of picks. Either the Browns have great poker faces, or they are just not that interested in Mariota.

4) The team expects Johnny Manziel back and they will give him a full chance to start. Despite offering excuses for his 2014 performance -- like Farmer saying last year's coaching staff changed the entire approach for Manziel's starts -- the Browns are going to give Manziel a chance to work with McCown. "When [Manziel] is back, it will be full speed ahead for him," Pettine said. "I think he's very anxious at this point."

5) The definiton of "changing an entire offense" can vary. Farmer said the Browns changed everything for Manziel. Pettine, politely, disagreed. "I know the run game stayed the same and I know we had some things in all year that were more suited for a mobile quarterback," Pettine said. "So there was a shift in emphasis there, but I wouldn't categorize those changes as drastic."

6) The Browns may not take a receiver in the first round because they will draft the best player available." I think its hard to go wrong when you take the best players that are available," Farmer said. Pettine said the Browns will try to make the team better in the draft. In his mind "value" trumps need. "If you're picking at 30 [be sure] you're getting a player that's 15th on your board," he said. "That you're not picking at 30 for a guy that's ranked 50th on your board because he plays a certain position."

I thought something crazy happened with all these new threads popping up.

nope... just posting stuff. to inject fresh conversations.

You aren't alone in that. I wondered what disaster had befallen us. I almost had a heart attack when I saw "6 new threads" in Pure Football.

When I got here it was up to 10!

Before actually opening the forum I thought we were slammed with someone selling jerseys. This is better.

On the surface they do all appear to be on the same page. At least by their words. So that at least shows they do talk to each other.

Thank you; that was badly needed as the other threads were getting stale...

Amen to that...

Thanks for posting all this stuff guys... the infusion was needed.

Not sure I buy the WR statement especially when it was followed by BPA comment... there is a greater than zero chance the BPA is a WR.

Good read...about a month before the draft so hard to draw any conclusions. I don't think we are looking to move up to get Mariota but still don't know what we would do if he drops to 12. What I do know is we did our due diligence and it seems every other QB had been working out with our QB coach.

Just an fyi after his Pro Day - A center and 5 WRs of Oregon stayed long after to work with Mariota in a private work out for us.

Stabilized...a weasel word being used by the Browns to say that they have created a situation for Johnny, where McCown agrees to help Manziel become the Browns next starter...and willingly steps aside when the coaches decide to "hand" the starting job to Manziel.

This season, on the offensive side of the ball, will be all about eliminating competition at the QB position, allowing Manziel another chance to prove he can start.

Maybe management sees this plan as a win/win situation where, if the Browns lose and Johnny sucks at QB, the Browns will then lose their way to the #1 pick in the 2116 draft.

This was never more evident than when Pettine basically said they had no interest in bringing in Mariota for a private visit, and he would just ask O'Connell. Actions speak louder than words. I don't care if you had a coach that was Mariota's dad. If you are interested in making this guy the face of your franchise, you bring him in for a private visit. Period.

The good and bad news of it all is Mariota might fall to them organically. Good in that no draft picks will be involved. Bad in that they may feel pressure to take him.

On the one hand I'm all for driving competition and making players earn it. Except at the QB position. When you draft a QB in the first round I think you should expect that the job will be handed to them. At the end of the day the pick was made because you believed in the guy. QB competitions are absolutely dumb and crippling to a team.

And besides...hand the job to Manziel or watch McCown go 3-13? I'm going to take the unknown in that case. At least there's some hope there. And then you'll know your answer definitively going into next offseason.

As for the 2116 draft, I don't believe football will be around by then, and I know none of us will. If you want to talk about the 2050 prospects I'm all ears.

I "totally" disagree with you about a QB picked later in the first round..picked later than the elite QBs of the draft, which Manziel was.

Most QBs picked in the lower part of 1st round and in lower rounds, have to compete and earn the starting job.

If Johnny could not beat out Hoyer, he didn't deserve to start, imo.

Also, the fact that JM was picked by the Browns in the first round doesn't mean he was first round talent. Many teams had him my lower on their draft board than 22.

I don't think what other teams thought about Manziel...whether he was a first round talent or not...matters here. The only thing that matters is what the Browns thought of him. Not only did they draft him in the first, they traded up to do so.

Do they want him to compete? Maybe. Should they hand him the job? Maybe. They drafted him to be the face of the franchise. There is some element there that screams give him the job. That's why you brought him here.

I just don't think it should be surprising if they hand the job to him, and I don't think it should be unexpected. And I don't necessarily think its a bad thing either.

rish...here is my problem with Johnny 2.0...the Browns had to dumb down the level of talent at the QB position just so JM has a chance to start.

I brought this scenario up months ago, where the Browns refuse to sign Hoyer because they knew that Johnny Football could not beat him out.

The Browns not only have done that, they went out and signed the worst free agent QB so JM could appear to win the starting job.

The Browns season is not going to be about producing a WINNING TEAM...it is going to be about "giving" JM another shot to prove himself.

My worst fear is materializing just as I predicted..2016 is not about WINNING FOOTBALL...it is about treating Johnny Football with kid gloves, insuring him the starting job without any competition.

I think there are more shades of grey here though.

Put yourself in the FO's shoes. Even though guys like me and you wanted to resign Hoyer and make him the starter, the FO obviously didn't believe in him. They certainly didn't believe in him as the starter. And although I wanted to bring Hoyer back, it's hard to argue he's a legit starter. So the FO has this guy who wants to be a starter, and they don't necessarily think he can. But if they do bring him back and he doesnt work out as the starter, is he willing to mentor the guy who they drafted to be the future? Signs from last year indicate that's iffy at best.

So now you've got a situation where you have a guy who believes he's a starter, but you're not sure. If you bring him back and it doesn't work out the way he wants, will he help the next guys? Because you really feel the next guys are your best chance for long term success.

Enter McCown. The FO feels he will be no worse than Hoyer, but a better teammate especially if he's not the starter. And the FO still wants to believe that their evaluation on the guy they traded up to get is still right. They are not ready to write him off yet. If you think about it, it would be foolish to write off Manziel already.

Bottom line, I think the team felt two things...1) Hoyer is not as good as he thinks he is and 2) Hoyer's belief that he is better than he is was going to hurt the team more than help it in the long run. If you add a third point that the team believes Manziel's long term prospects are better than Hoyer's, it's not hard to connect the dots.

Was that the right play? Do I agree with it? I don't know. I thought maybe Hoyer could be more if given another opportunity and better support from the team and coaches. But you have to admit that it was truly a 50/50 proposition. And the team wasn't willing to take those chances.

Not sure I can necessarily fault them for that. I'll be watching Hoyer closely in Houston this year.

rish...you are doing your best to smear lipstick on this ugly pig of a situation the Browns created.

So much has been written about the Browns plans concerning the QB position..possible QB moves that might be made in the draft, free agent QBs, supposed attempts to sign another team's starter (Bradford, 1 example).

It's kind of looking like the Browns fans have been "played" by management, if the only scenario that works out for the Browns is Manziel beating out a 35 yr old QB who lead his last team to a 1-10 record as their starter last season.

Months ago, I stated that I feared that the Browns would attempt to create this exact scenario for Manziel. I kept saying that I hoped that I was wrong.

I can't justify what the Browns have done...2015 is a throw away season for the Browns with the focus on Johnny Football...not on "winning".

.. " It's kind of looking like the Browns fans have been "played" by management," And counting !

.. " It's kind of looking like the Browns fans have been "played" by management,"

.....Since 1999 And counting !

The Browns refused to sign hoyer because he stunk and stinks. Plain and simple.

McCown may not be a prize free agent, however he was the best QB Free agent on the market. This is a fact. Many teams were seeking out his services. Not just Cleveland.

And its not like they paid Josh a kings ransom. He is a veteran QB that will help the young QBs as well as play if needed. I am sick of these Hoyer fans coming up with excuse after excuse about why we didnt sign Hoyer. He's gone, deserved to be gone, and will not be here ever again. What is your argument going to be when he is the backup in Houstan.

rish...here is my problem with Johnny 2.0...the Browns had to dumb down the level of talent at the QB position just so JM has a chance to start.

mac I'll try even though I'm sure you will not waiver to reasoning.

In regards to Hoyer. We made him an offer he told us he wanted to see the FA Market. Teams don't wait. We saw an opportunity on a similar QB who in our Lose Gain also meant a draft pick obtained in that exchange.

Not to be harsh but Hoyer had his opportunity and after that 1st Bengal game he just progressively got worse. It was not Mack, it was not this or that...His game just went BAD. I liked him we all wish he would have continued playing well.

Dummy down the opportunity? Right the Coaches have no desire to win - we wish to jeopardize wins so that we can coddle a Manziel. What part of Pettine's running the team spells that out for you???

Articles and on our QB situation....in the DEAD Zone...are you kidding. Its like when posters use to yell out "FREE POST" to get post counts up. Of course the biggest source to much the ado is Agents. And Some people were coming down hard on Chip so conveniently he states he had an offer of a 1st rounder already in less then 24 hours of the deal.

Of course Chip wouldn't make something up right? Something that would create more value if he wanted to. Something to get the media off his back for the deal...and it worked.

Creat an exact situation for Manziel...like what mac. Making an environment that he would succeed in...OH THE HORROR. We are trying to get production from our HIGH Invested QB PROSPECT....lol How is this bad.

And we don't know if all this is for Manziel? The Mariota thing still might be in play? We might do a mid round draft in Mannion or another.

Are we going to give Manziel every opportunity to be the Starting QB? HECK YEAH why is that a bad thing. See your opinion is that you have decided Manziel is worthless so because of that our Coaches should think like Mac...how dare they!

If Manziel has his head on straight and he starts working harder than anyone. If not - I expect us for sure to go for Mariota. But common sense would say Manziel plays and earns his keep. Just cause the Media is snickering - they have snickered before and looked foolish. So what. The media are just Parrots.

jmho Making an comfortable environment for Manziel to succeed and Cutting off our nose to spite our face are two different things.

+1 Eo.

I agree.

For years fans have said, "oh we didnt give anyone of our QBs a chance or the tools to succeed."

Yet when we try to do that, we are dumbing down the playbook and coddling Manziel. IDK if its pure hate for JF or some weird fatuation with Hoyer.

Plain and simple, Hoyer had the opportunity to run this team and be a player. He could not handle the pressure due to a lack of skills/talent. This will be his 7th year I believe in the league. The only team he had a chance to start for was CLEVELAND BROWNS that should tell you something there!

Well I do think you're reaching just a bit about Chip just making things up to get the media off his back, but otherwise I can see your points. lol

It was hard to read that entire article after the first paragraph involved the words of Josh McCown, quarterback position and stabilized. Lol... but I am really beginning to think the staff actually feels that McCown will play good. Maybe he will.

And I agree with #3, hopefully they aren't interested in Mariota and the hefty requirements to move up to a position to get him. Hopefully they stick to the tune of building and putting good players around the quarterback, and two things... 1. wait until next year's draft or perhaps FA, or 2. see how JF demonstrates where he is in his life, both on and off the field.

All JMO

No remember what Hoyer said when they decided to go to JF? He said I will do all I can to help JF prepare to start. The end Hoyer was and is a team guy, period.

Having said that the powers that be don't believe for whatever reason in Hoyer, and they did 2 things by not bringing him back.

1- there will be no calls for Hoyer when JF fails.

2- There will be no calls for McCown if JF fails.

I don't like their obvious plan but if I can somehow stomach another season of getting our asses handed to us will be in great shape to pick at the top of the draft next season.

This is their plan as I see it.

It starts and ends with JF, its sink or swim time for him and the Browns, he will either step up and grow into his roll as an NFL starter or will be in a position to draft his replacement.

I think they view Hoyer as being just good enough to win some games, but not good enough to get them where they want to go, and McCown isn't so if it gets bad enough we have to go to McCown the loosing will continue, which will lock up the top pick.

I actually think they got it right but man I hate losing I have had enough of it, I hate hate hate it.

Now the thing is do they have the stomach to follow their plan to its conclusion. Its going to get real ugly is my bet they better at least hire some folks to keep an eye on the bridges around town.

I think what they mean by the QB position being "stabilized" is that the QB room will now have all guys who will get along and help each other.

Hoyer didn't seem to be that guy by his own admission when he said he wouldn't re-sign here so long as 1st round pick Manzel was waiting in the wings.

I think his attitude changed over time but I'd also bet it made for a tense QB room, early on especially and even more so after he'd said that and at least still somewhat at the end.

I don't think they really feel that Josh McCown is a savior of any sort. But I do believe they feel it is stabilized compared to last year. I also think the addition of Thad Lewis contributes to that as he at least has some game experience. Last season the only QB with any game experience was Hoyer and he didn't have much at all.

They have to assume he's now the starter. High first-round pick. The man he backed up is gone now. Other QB's on the roster can't claim starter rank by any means.

Johnny gets the ball in training camp, and it's sink or swim. We either get our future starter, or it's Flipper II, and draft another QB next year.

Only thing that could change this current dynamic is a bizarre Free Agent trade / signing of Drew Brees or Philip Rivers, then Johnny gets handed a clipboard again, and maybe a vacation back in rehab.

High first round pick?

That's possible, I guess. But maybe they just feel incredible pressure to make Manziel the starter because of his high-draft rank, and that he was brought in to be the franchise QB, and need a back-up plan (McCown) in case Manziel is a crash-and-burn on the field (and / or off the field).

McCown's not a definite first-stringer, so isn't threatening to Manziel. Start of training camp, no one will say, "Why's Manziel getting first-string reps rather than McCown?"

But if Manziel flames out, at least the FO can say they have a back-up who, in theory, could win three or four games if everything breaks the right way. So at least the FO can say they have a back-up plan, in a plausible deniability kind of way.

If your theory is correct, why did we try and trade a first round pick for Sam Bradford?

We didn't have a play-off team pick, which to me is where the 'low' round picks start.

What, Johnny came on Buffalo's pick??

They figured Bradford would be on injured reserve most of the season.

They certainly can't have great confidence in a Manziel-and-fill-in-the-blank backup QB to fill the QB role.

Before signing McCown (or whomever at that point) they had second thoughts and tried even an implausible alternative like a first-round pick for a frequently hurt but competent starter. Clutching at straws given their likely situation (Manziel-and-backup X).

Now they're stuck with their doubtful first-round pick from last year, as they feared they would be, along with a journeyman whom they hope won't stink too badly if Manziel flops. But that's what they were expecting before making a wild fling at Bradford.

I don't think they have any real confidence in Manziel any way they slice it. On the longshot you get a Bradford, they play Manziel when Bradford's on IR, and watch Johnny fail. Or, they watch Johnny fail, and put in McCown / Journeyman X. I think they're looking past this year and hoping for a better pick next year, and quietly sweep last year's first-round-QB flop under the rug and move on.

And, who knows?? There's a remote, theoretical chance that Manziel could come out of rehab a new man and become a real, starting franchise QB.

Time to scratch my seven year itch! Haven't posted in that time frame but have been creeping....Being an ex-coach I always like reading EOTAB's posts! I'm cautiously optimistic with this regime so I'm getting a little excited, thus a long lost poster returns. It struck me reading these posts that we would have a "throw away season" CAN NOT ALLOW MYSELF TO BELIEVE THAT!

When a parent used to complain to me that "why isn't my kid playing, he's one of your best players" I always chuckle to myself. As a coach I wanted to win a heck of a lot more than anyone else and my livelihood relied on it, so if a player could withstand the rigors and could help me win...heck yeah he played. I gotta assume in the NFL (NOT FOR LONG LEAGUE) coaches / gm would do the same or they would be unemployed.

I agree. At some point creating competition creates distractions.

WOW,, talk about a thread that went off the rails LOL

Anyway, I didn't learn anything from the NFL meeting about the Browns. Other than the penalty will be "severe" for text gate.

Dude you can spin this and likely will anyway you like, just as the Browns FO has but if anyone thinks for a minute that the QB situation is stable in Cleveland your NUTS, period the END.

Only thing BttB.
1. Coaches don't play to lose.
2. Regardless of Mediocre play (at worst with McCown we get Mediocre) our Defense and OL (running game) will be too good to lose enough to get into the top 3, 5 maybe 10 will be a possibility.

So as far as Suck for Cook or whatever...its a bad plan all the way around and just not being done.

I do think...hard to tell cause its all on Manziels commitment which we don't know now but we definitely know by end of Training camp. But if its 100% we are definitely going all in having his go as starter. Which is not a bad thing as some might portray. AS in This is OUR Guy lets work hard as a team to get there.

I think we got a great support team to bring along a young QB, I don't know if we have a draft day move. I do know we are dotting our i's and crossing our t's where Mariota is concerned.

But we are long past that crappy team where a little cohesive effort we could just lose and suck for #1. D is too good and OL too good for that.

Also no coach will do it. How they get fired. We would lose Mack for sure 100% and drop even further in player respect to want to play here.

jmho

You don't let Hoyer walk and replace him with 1-10 McCown and call the QB situation stable.

You don't throw out offers for Bradford and say the QB situation is stable.

You don't get a look at JF and clear the decks of all competition when he was lazy drunk and awful in his 1st season if your plan is to win.

This defense will be lucky to treed water this year at best and they too were awful at times last season but did show up at the end, but they did lose some pieces and they did replace others.

Mack laughed when they asked about who would be the Browns QB. Why?

From what I saw last season from JF the only thing his game says to me is lose and then lose some more, same goes for McCown.

I could give a rats ass how well we do or don't run the ball with the QB situation as is based on what I have seen from our so called starters I see lose, lose, lose, so if that isn't the plan then what the hell is the plan?

I echo their obvious beliefs, you CANNOT consistently win games in the NFL with a horrific QB situation like the one we have.

Like I said earlier they are in sink or swim mode with JF. my bet based on what I have seen from him so far is we get our asses handed to us and if its as bad as I think it will be, will wrap up the 1st pick in the draft early on.

So to say per say the plan is to lose it is and it isn't. They plan to roll with JF they don't really believe in him or they don't go after Bradford if he raises his game then great but if he shows like he did last season then their in line for the top pick and that sadly is the plan.

It will hit you at some point. I hate losing but by choosing this plan they IMO have all but guaranteed themselves the top pick.

You don't let Hoyer walk and replace him with 1-10 McCown and call the QB situation stable.
They made hoyer an offer, he declined. Josh M is not a downgrade from Hoyer, they are both backup QBs. More teams were interested in Josh M than Hoyer in FA, so that has to tell you something.

You don't throw out offers for Bradford and say the QB situation is stable
This is a speculative and only reported. In fact, many people are saying Chip made that rumor up to save face...JMO I agree.

You don't get a look at JF and clear the decks of all competition when he was lazy drunk and awful in his 1st season if your plan is to win
What competition did they clear? Hoyer was garbage and didnt want to stay here because he knew he he would have to compete. So he signed in Houstan, where he is going to have to compete with Mallett, and will loose.

This defense will be lucky to treed water this year at best and they too were awful at times last season but did show up at the end, but they did lose some pieces and they did replace others.

This statement just has no bearing whatsoever. Our defense is a year in to a new system, that means they are year wiser. We havent lost much in FA, and in fact we added a better corner and run decent lineman in starks. I believe actually the defense is going to be vastly IMPROVED.

Mack laughed when they asked about who would be the Browns QB. Why?
You would have to ask Mack that question now wouldnt you??? But Mack is a player, not a coach or GM, and his opinion on anything really doesnt matter now does it?

From what I saw last season from JF the only thing his game says to me is lose and then lose some more, same goes for McCown.

I dont know how you can base a persons entire career and skill level on 7 quarters of football. And from what I saw in Hoyer, I can the say the same thing, however it was over a much longer period of time, 7 years worth of football. As for McCown, he was the most sought after free agent QB this year, so I am sure multiple GMs are not as smart or great talent evaluators as you....

I could give a rats ass how well we do or don't run the ball with the QB situation as is based on what I have seen from our so called starters I see lose, lose, lose, so if that isn't the plan then what the hell is the plan?

Great insight. Can you explain you feel that way. We have two second year RBs that had great seasons last year. they are a year stronger, faster, and more wiser. Our OLine is better and going to get better than last year. Our WR position may still need a #1, but it is in better shape than it was last year as well. Overall, our team has gotton better.

I echo their obvious beliefs, you CANNOT consistently win games in the NFL with a horrific QB situation like the one we have.

Again, we dont really know what the QB situation is, I am still saying as is the FO and a lot fans that 7 quarters is not enough to base a man's career on.

Like I said earlier they are in sink or swim mode with JF. This is the only thing you are correct on. But we were sink or swim with anyone in FA, and this draft. What would have wanted the Browns to do? Who out there could we have got???

hey guys, is this the infamous Coach B you guys are always talking about?

BTTB, Hoyer wanted a shot being "the" guy. I get the dysfunctional franchise reports.

What I question on Hoyer's ability is why New York and Buffalo passed. Buffalo traded for Matt Cassel, and Jets decided to stick with Geno Smith. Hoyer landed in Houston to play backup to Ryan Mallett. Hoyer was available for all three teams. Yet, they went a different direction.

Yes, I was surprised, but those were real teams needing a QB. Media can report all they want the udder chaos in Browns FO. The fact is other teams passed on Hoyer, and other teams passed getting Hoyer as a viable backup. Either those guys are not nearly as smart or we have a blind-eye.

Oh, man! Now we're bringing cows into this discussion as well?

Sorry, bugs. I had to do it....

We are in the most competitive league in the ENTIRE WORLD. NO ONE is going to tank a season before it begins. Any given Sunday.

tell the colts that.

I dont think think they tanked they were what they were. A bad team with a great QB, and when he left, they were a bad team.

The current Colts team, minus Luck, is not even a .500 team.

Whoopss...I hate spell check even if it saves me from time to time!!! Good Spot!

I doubt it. His post actually made sense.

I guess it's all in how you define "stabilized". There will be no animosity or bad blood in the QB room this season. By that definition it's stabilized compared to last year.

I think Hoyer held a strong, negative attitude toward Manzel by his own admission. You don't want that kind of dynamic within any position group. QB especially. Last season the QB situation was rocky at best. I think that is the major reason the FO didn't want Hoyer in the mix.

Call it what you will, define it however you wish, in regards to the QB's as a group the situation has been "stabilized" with the release of Hoyer and the addition of McCown.



How about we leave my NUTS out of it. They've become sensitive to negative remarks in my old age.

EO...nice spin

If the Browns wanted a QB of Hoyer's talent level, they could have signed him...you know it...I know it...so stop with the excuses why Haslam and Farmer did not sign Hoyer.

Bottom line, Manziel could not beat out Hoyer last year and he would likely have a hard time doing it this year. So there was no way the Browns could sign Hoyer, if the #1 priority was to name Manziel the starting QB this season.




EO...that is not what I said...I said this..."rish...here is my problem with Johnny 2.0...the Browns had to dumb down the level of talent at the QB position just so JM has a chance to start."

McCown's record as a NFL QB is so bad that NO ONE will have a problem believing that Manziel was able to beat out McCown for the starting job.

Months ago I brought this scenario up, where the Browns would not even try to sign Hoyer, clearing the way for them to name Manziel as the starter. It's looking like my prediction is on track to materialize like I believed it might.

Many of you poo-pooed the idea that the Browns would set up such a situation, clearing the deck for JF. Many said there would be "other moves coming at QB", besides the McCown signing. Some believed the Browns would be making more moves (FA, veteran, draft) and any idea that our front office was making up a plan to hand the starting job to JM wasn't gonna happen.

I will say this, I have overlooked Thad Lewis. I believe he may be the best QB on our roster...let's see if Lewis gets a chance to compete for the starting job...or will he be cut without even getting a chance?

I said "I hope I'm wrong"...but it's looking more and more like I'm right.

Winning is not the #1 priority for Haslam and Farmer...and I have a problem with that.

I guess some of you enjoy "being played"...

You believe wrongly, but I will do you one better. Lets assume what you say is true (which it isn't). Lets for the sake of argument assume your correct.

Here is Hoyer putting in the work and playing and performing at a much higher level constantly not receiving the backing form the FO or the coaches for that matter in favor of a lazy drunk. Now I have labeled JF a lazy drunk, am I wrong? Hoyer worked his tail off JF laid on his ass with a drink in his hand right or wrong?

Now we are all suppose to be all happy because the FO has set it up for JF to be the man on the field. Now ask yourself why wouldn't I be all happy? Why wouldn't I believe we are screwed. Of course McCown is better then Hoyer, McCown had real weapons around him last season to work with in the weakest division in the NFL and he could muster up a solid 1-10 record. I can see why he was the better option then Hoyer. And now it hits me why you believe that the QB situation is stabilized.

The truth, the real truth is the FO viewed Hoyer as a problem in the locker room and in the seats. When JF falls on his face the players in the locker room will have to roll with JF and Hoyer won't be a problem, and when the fans grow increasingly anti JF there will be no Hoyer to fall back on. Will have to face down losing so it become sink or swim for JF and the Browns, there will be NO plan B.

Hoyer was the leader both on the field and in the locker room the players loved him, and the FO views that as a problem and that is the reason Hoyer isn't here. He was a team guy no matter how hard fans like yourself TRY to demonize the guy.

But he isn't here and I believe that placing the fate of the season in JF hands after what he did last season (lazy drunk) is foolish, not based on what you or others would LIKE to believe but based off what he showed and what he did. At this point I can judge him based on what he did. He was Lazy (by his own admit ion, and he was a or is a drunk). He played like crap based on what I saw, he was a disappointment all the way around and you can't blame that on Hoyer.



You want to ignore everything and stick your head in the sand and wish for the best, I get it are you ready for what is likely coming?

I'm certainly NOT saying JF can't turn it around but man its pretty damned unlikekly don't you think?

you realize as well as hoyer played at the beginning of the season, he single handedly played us out of the playoffs last year, right?

You're talking about this guy like he was the second coming of manning. he's not. Hell, Kyle Orton got the bills to 9 wins, Hoyer couldn't even do that. If he can't even play at an Orton level, then we should keep him around because.....

Until we had a better option he was our best option. To think after 16 starts and 10-6 record to go with it that Hoyer had hit his ceiling is short sighted IMO.

JF didn't even come close to showing anything at ALL yet we should hang the fate of the team on his shoulders and run with it. JF shouldn't have to show anything what-so-ever but he should be the starter not because he is better, but because we cleared out all possible competition for him and I object. Last year PET said that it was all about everyone competing for the starting gig, right.

Do you think thats still true?

They can put all the lipstick on this pig they and you want but its still a pig, and an obvious pig at that.

swish...WRONG!!!

yea...I'm right. Cause if he played like he did the first half of the season, we would be in the playoffs.

it's really that simple.

You assume so much, I wish I had your inside info

swish...you are wrong...100% WRONG !

Now you resort to "hypotheticals"..."IF" Hoyer had done this or if Hoyer had done that.

Now for the truth...the Browns were setting at 7-4 after a win over the Falcons on Nov 23.

Then 2 tough losses to the Bills and Colts left the Browns at 7-6 and still with a chance to make the playoffs when "someone" thought it would be a good idea to start our hard working rookie, Johnny Football, against the Bengals.

The Bengals, a team that Hoyer played against just 5 weeks earlier, winning at Cinci 24-3.

As you know, Johnny Football laid a "30-0 egg" against the Bengals, eliminating the Browns from playoff contention.

Last season, the AFC North had 3 teams in the playoffs with the Ravens getting a wild card birth with a 10-6 record. The Browns had 6 losses when Manziel took over and were still in the hunt for a playoff birth, which ended with JF's first start as a Pro.

So, as you can see, you are 100% WRONG

lol....

so why did JF end up starting those games?

Cause last time i checked, JF didn't start magically because Pettine felt like doing a good deed.

you're making it seem like it just randomly happened, instead of telling the TRUTH: Hoyer played like trash, played his OWN self out of the starting position.

We have a really bad habit of defending bums on this team once they leave.

Hoyer is gone. he ended up playing like trash. If he was good, he'd still be here.

let it go.

swish...did you even read my post?

I said "someone" thought of the bright idea of starting "our hard working rookie".

Hoyer didn't start him...

I doubt that it was Pettine's decision to start him...

But there is a very good chance that the guy who was texting the sidelines for Haslam, played a role in the decision to start Johnny freaking Football.

When was the last time that Browns fans even had a discussion about making the playoffs in December?

You have Hoyer to thank for that...

...and you have Johnny Football to thank for the ass kicking from the Bengals, 30-0, which ended the Browns last hope for making the playoffs in 2014.

If NOT for Hoyer we are NOT 7-4 to begin with.

If Hoyer played like trash then what was it that we saw from JF that we all should sign up for more of him? Why should anyone believe in JF is what I'm getting at.

I have no problem with JF being the starter, I do however have a problem with him being the starter and NOT earning it, and I have a problem with the FACT that we have no plan B if he plays like he did last year.

I will do you one better. IF (not likely) JF can replicate what Hoyer did last season this upcoming season I would be thrilled to death.

That said want to bet we don't even get a whiff of being on the winning side of the ledger? Want to bet we don't win more then 2 games, and if we only win 2 games are you and I suppose to be all happy?

I will make you prediction right now this team will struggle to win just 2 games next year with JF starting and if McCown is the starter will get the 1st pick in the draft just like the Bucs are this year. Oddly enough McCown was their starter last year.

To me the real question here is this. Is McCown better then Hoyer or hell is JUF better then Hoyer and to date niether has shown they can hold trashy Hoyer's jock, and we ditched Hoyer for McCown how sad is that?

Hoyer was benched for a REASON!

Case closed.

sorry Mac, dude played himself out of the starter role. There's zero conspiracy, unless you think Hoyer started playing like trash on purpose.

I'm still pissed about that Colts game.

Thats the thing BTTB, I don't have much faith in Manziel either.

I dunno if you do, but i surely have none.

But just because option A played better than option B, doesn't mean they played any good, which also means we shouldn't keep option A around just because he's better than B.

You get rid of both of them.

Will McCown play better than Hoyer? Nobody has that answer. For all we know, we get the Bucs version. For all we know, we get the Bears version.

I mean seriously, if Mccown gets us 2 games next season, thats horrible. but hoyer is good for 7....that still sucks, because we won't get into the playoffs with ANY of them if that happened.

personally, I would give up both 1st for Winston. but thats just me.

btob...you are right...the question we should be asking, did the Browns improve their QB position by signing a 35 yr old QB who lead his team to 1 win and 10 losses last season?

If this is all the Browns do concerning the QB position, it will be because this is all they ever intended to do.

I'm sure they will have a story canned and ready to go when the local and national media begins questioning, why didn't the Browns do more to improve their QB position.

Sadly, 2015 is shaping up to be a THROW AWAY SEASON to see if Johnny Football is "the one".

swish...and I'm still pissed about the decision to start Johnny freaking Football in the biggest game of the 2014 season against the Bengals, a team we had just beaten 5 weeks earlier.

How poor was that decision to start JFF against the Bengals?...it wasn't even close..his performance...

...10/18=80yds...2 Ints...0 TDs...0 points

How ironic, those who complain about Hoyer's play, never say a freaking word about Manziel's performance.

what is there to say about manziel's performance?

Dude, thats what you don't get. There's nothing to say about manziel's performance because EVERYBODY agrees he was trash.

Not much of a discussion there.

that is the point. getting rid of players that played better and keeping players that played like trash.

hoyer played better. yes.

Manziel played like Trash. Hoyer played like McDonalds wrappers.

what an upgrade.

This.

If we had below average QB play that day, like a 3-4 on a scale of 1 to 10, we win that game. Heck, bad QB play and we win that game.

I'm with Swish. Hoyer played himself out of the starting gig. We were lucky to have him when he played his best ball. We caught lightning in a bottle with Hoyer. He is a journeyman and a backup. Sometimes that what guys are, not knocking him.

as much as i disagreed with throwing manziel in, you people cant act like the coaches knew he was going to perform worse than hoyer.

the way hoyer was playing, they felt HE was playing us out of the playoffs. we couldnt afford, at that moment, to let him just keep playing poorly, we had to try and do something to get ourselves a win.

sure, in retrospect it didnt work out that way, but they had a QB they felt was worth a first rounder sitting on the bench, while the starter was playing horribly.

If they didn't then we have the wrong folks running this team period.

1- They knew he wasn't putting in the work, and even JF said so himself.

2- They knew he was absent from the facility when he wasn't mandated to be there. He was thirsty I guess.

They knew he knew they choose for whatever reason (Haslam) to play him, and he flopped and they knew he would.

Here is my problem with JF, he says all the right things but his action don't match his words and that fact isn't lost on his teammates I can guarantee you that.

I maintain to this day had this organization shown Hoyer any level of honest support he would have played better. He played great up until the Cincy game and then things started to unravel for him. 1 word a true belief in him would have made a great deal of difference. But his support consisted of we will continue to evaluate the position from week to week. That's not support, that's standing in the shadows waiting to lower the hammer.

Put on top of that the fact that Hoyer took I think 1 day off after he began his rehab along with the riggers of starting for the 1st time and you have a player that is physically and mentally exhausted. Again I think good coaching would have made certain that he didn't wear down. The player may not understand how difficult it is to prepare and play a full season but the coaches should.

In the end I think we hand a guy who worked to hard and a guy who didn't work at ALL.

Hoyer is gone, I think it was a mistake to let him go, and especially so in light of not having a better option available. I know that folks like to say the book is closed on Hoyer he is this or that but he has started 1 seasons worth of games compiled a record of 10-6 and we toss that guy aside for what?

The reason Hoyer isn't here is because he wanted to start and the players in the locker room believed in him and rallied around him and management wants the team to rally around JF, and if I were them and I thought JF was my future and I was ready to move forward with him I would have let Hoyer go as well.

What they see in JF I will never know but its their call and their necks.

"I maintain to this day had this organization shown Hoyer any level of honest support he would have played better."

You guys need to stop with this nonsense.
He flat out stunk,I mean stunk of epic proportions.His biblical suckitude is the reason he's no longer here.Dry your eyes,change your diaper,he's gone,time to move on to the next chump.

You don't let Hoyer walk and replace him with 1-10 McCown and call the QB situation stable.

I really like Hoyer I was one of the few who was stating he would n should start 2014 from game 1.

But I'm sorry HE CHOKED and I don't say that often - HE CHOKED BIG TIME. I lost pretty much all respect for him as OUR QB. He didn't have an injury, if anything his knee should have gotten better. I know we lost Mack the big excuse for him but there was pocket integrity - I understand the RB game went south but what all have to remember it wasn't like because of that teams gave up on stopping the run...they all committed to it so that play action still had great dividends for us.

Bengal game #1 was his greatest. National TV, National media all saying, NOW THE BROWN HAVE A STARTING QB...he seemed from that moment on like a deer in headlights. Never to come close to that games play on the field. I'm talking technique confidence in his decision, stepping into his throws, being accurate.

He just got progressively worse. I don't expect every pass to be completed. But a good QB completes the passes where the WR is wide open and no significant pressure in his face. Time after time Hoyer missed on these opportunities and we were in very close close games. We could have won just about all of them.

Then there was his last chance game where the coaches said no we aren't making a change we are sticking with HOYER vs. Colts. Our D played GREAT! There we were poised to win the game - we mustered 3 first downs (something like that) the entire 2nd half and their D wasn't playing great we just sucked!

I'm sorry to relive this painful history...we/Hoyer had the opportunity to be revered...and he just crumbled under that pressure. So this painful relive is to say - there is no big fall off at ALL from Hoyer to McCown. That is just your imagination of his good spell and wins up to that Bengal game...what happened after that was not a mirage. If I knew he had an ankle sprain or something like that he was playing through the pain - I could say - ahhh that's why. But how does ones good footwork just disappear and become terrible half way through the season? His protection had a little drop but for the most part there was pocket integrity throughout the games. There was NO REASON for his fall off except between the Ears! Its called Choke.

I wouldn't mind him staying but he said NO to our offer and explained in the press that he wanted to see his worth in the FA market. Teams do not sit there with THumbs up their butt waiting. They got another whose skill set is similar. Who is at the end of their career and understand they will never be THE guy but knows he can make teams remember him. And we do have a good OL something he hasn't really seen.

I know you got really into him - more than the average bear. But he was no big loss. After his Choke season the plan would not be for him to be our starter, McCown not to be our Starter. Whoever was the Veteran they would be the Safety Valve Starter. Just in case.
jmho McCown fits that role nicely. You seem to forget Hoyer turned us down.

Agreed. We are no worse with josh M. than BH. I honestly think we are a little better off with Josh just for his experience alone. JMO.

Sorry Tab I am not buying what your stepping in.

Yes he chocked when the organization should have stepped forward (like after the Cincy game) and said Brian your our man you have worked your tail off and delivered. Instead we/he got the we continue to evaluate the QB position on a week to week basis. I think that tact taken on by management wore on Hoyer. It was like what do I have to do to EARN these guys support and it just took its toll.

But this is NOT some new revelation for me I said it from the beginning of the season that these guys were mishandling the QB situation, and Bernie you know him he said the exact same thing. This franchise has bungled the QB situation for decades now and this is yet another example of just that.

The fact that Hoyer chocked is a reflection of management mishandling of the position. It's not like hey the guy never showed us nothing, he did so we KNOW its in him and I think good coaching and a pat on the back and encouragement and hey letting him know your in his corner would have helped, but that never happened. The only folks that truly showed Hoyer support were his pears and his team mates.

Some fans and management couldn't wait for him to fail, and in the end it got to Hoyer. He'll recoup and will be oh so sorry when we once again reap what we sow.

Sad

EO...yep..it was all Hoyers fault, right?

Some look at a play and scream about how bad Hoyer was...not knowing the play call, not knowing if there was audible, not knowing if a receiver ran the wrong route or failed to fight for the pass.

...the inexperienced, amature fan never asks those questions..they just see what looks like a bad play and assume it is all the QBs fault.

To some, Hoyer was just a terrible QB...even though he has a record of 10 wins/ 7 losses as a starting QB.
...some point to Hoyer's 13 ints to illustrate what a terrible QB Hoyer was...but, did those fans know that Rivers lead all QBs with 18 ints in 2014?
...Rivers and Cutler had 18 ints
...Brees, Dalton, Bortles had 17 ints
...Luck had 16 ints
...PManning had 15 ints
...Josh McCown, EManning, Ryan had 14 ints
...RANKING 11TH IN INTS WAS BRIAN HOYER.

I could go on and on with examples that show that Hoyer was not nearly as bad as many of our amateur fans claim.

He was the best QB the Browns have had in many years and he had his team knocking on the door of the playoffs.

We are about to find out if Josh McCown is a better QB. He is being handed an offensive unit that added WR talent...McCown should have no problem leading the Browns to the playoffs if he is as good as some of you say he is...right?

it's management's fault hoyer choked?

started having bad foot work? not reading the field? throwing some bone headed passes?

that cincy game, Deon started a pay da man campaign for HOYER. not manziel. HOYER. Dude was getting EVERY last ounce of respect he deserve.

Then the choke-fest started, and he went from above average, to eh, to "what the hell was that?"

The management gave this guy every last reason to make him believe it was his team. because it WAS.

Let's be honest here: fans was calling for this guy's head after the first half of the steelers game opening day. but MANAGEMENT decided not to pull a "2007" and put manziel in instead. they road with the guy. Even after that craptastic loss to the "at the moment" winless jaguars team, where Bortles literally went out of his way to hand us the W, management still road with him.

even after that craptasic first half of the Titans game, Management still road with him.

after that Houston game, management road with him.

after that crap Bills game, management road with him.

but that Colts game was it bro.

Stop it dude. Hoyer had nobody to blame but himself. the entire browns org gave this guy every last chance to succeed, and he crap the bed.

stop defending bums.

and Tab, i know you tried to throw Hoyer a bone with the mack injury,

but just to keep it in perspective, NOT counting the win against the steelers when Mack went down,

we STILL went 4-2 after the end of Falcons game.

not saying you Tab, but others can't use the Mack injury as a crutch.

It was ALL hoyer.

Your right swish it was all Hoyer 7-4 Hoyer..

Yes we can find fault with Hoyer but the support system within management has gone over and beyond for guys like Gordan, and Johnny, and west and on and on yet a hard working guy like 7-4 Hoyer he doesn't catch a break from anyone and you all wonder why I think your

I think I mentioned he was getting support from his pears and from his team mates management good management that is would have done the same, he deserved it and more importantly he earned it the problem I have with it is that he never got it even when he did well he didn't get it. You don't understand that because you don't want to...

Swish have you ever had a job where you felt like everyday might be your last? It wears on a person it really does and that is magnified x 10 when your in the public spot light.

Yes thats what you sign up for and your paid handsomely to boot but with all that said your still a human being never forget that simple truth. He we are all human we need a pat on the back a vote of confidence when our head is hanging low. Based on the posture and the public statements made by management (Pet) from the beginning of the season and after the Cincy game Hoyer never garnered support from within management and thats always the wrong way to get the best from any player especially a QB.

I won't mention that Gordon and Jordan both admitted to running the wrong routes after all thats still Hoyers fault right?

Instead we/he got the we continue to evaluate the QB position on a week to week basis.

Sorry I remember it different, that scenario you just drew up was after he had 3-4 bad games. Then the "MEDIA" not the Brown kept relenting on starting Manziel...in answer to the media the last couple weeks they said that...actually the first time I heard that part where they were going to discuss on who starts was after the Bills game when Manziel came in w/12 minutes left. They chose Hoyer and threw up a major stinker.

The other and last thing I will say... X factor, Y factor for CHOKING is a Loser's Mantra...Hoyer choked because of HOYER. The team having to actually think about replacing him as a starter...is not what made him PLAY BAD all of a sudden. It was because of his BAD PLAY the team had to start thinking about replacing him.

It was when he was THE GUY that Hoyer downfall happened. Not a SOUL...A SOUL was saying otherwise after that Bengal game we were first in our division 6-3??? Not a soul was suggesting it. Only later After he was playing bad.

jmho. Anyways onto bigger and better things.

Don't you know that the front office made sure Hoyer failed so they could get Manzeil on the field

Guess what everybody. There is plenty of blame to go round. Blame Hoyer, blame the O-line, blame the qb coach, blame the offensive cord. blame the wr and te. The truth is its a team sport and we failed as a team. All the blame does not go to one person

While I can understand your statement about it being magnified, I still don't fully agree with it.

When I was a young and dumb Private, I got into trouble for stupid things (i.e. not waxing my barracks floor, things out of my control and etc - nothing major) to the point of being threatened with an Article 15. Now during regular days, sure I was stressed about Command and etc. But when we were in the field, or on missions (even with Command overlooking us), it was far from my thoughts. Why b/c I was focusing on the task and also my "teammates" were there supporting me and working together in that field. Losing pay, extra duty, rank, etc...isn't much different than "everyday might be your last".

It's not like a desk job where he has all day to think about it while working. He's in an field environment, where 250-300 lb men are trying to crush him.

I can see Hoyer being stressed during the week, but if he's stressed or whatever in the huddle - surrounded with all his teammates that support him and believe in him and not focusing on that moment....then he's got bigger issues then people overlooking him from the outside.

Just like most, I supported him when he was our QB, but it was time to move on.

imo



*edit* I just wanted to add....I agree with your statement GMdawg, I'm def not fully blaming Hoyer.

Also he def had a part in the 7-4 record, but still it really doesn't mean much. Besides being game managers.

W/L Career records and TD/ints career :
* (denotes best record)

Quincy Carter - 18-16 (2003 10-6) TD 32 Ints 37
Jay Fielder - 37-23 (2001 11-5) TD 69 Ints 66
Vince Young 31-19 (2009 9-6)
Rex Grossman 25-22 (2006 13-3)
Rodney Peete 45-42 (1995 9-3)
Shaun King 14-10 (started one year 2000 10-6)

Sorry to say but you remember it wrong.

I was very keen to what was being said by Pet and believe me he said, " we continue to evaluate the QB position and all positions on a week to week basis". Pet's words the FO nor Pet ever did anything to not feed the monster, its from that posture via FO/Pet that the media fed.

When management could have and IMO should have come out strongly for Hoyer it never happened. QB's have bad games and sometime stretches of bad games its MO that when that happens the staff needs to publicly and privately rally around their guy, Hoyer was never given that level of support. I will this though the players sure as hell rallied around Hoyer, they showed a level of support to him not shown a QB here like since Bernie was the man, to me that says a lot about the player.

I wished we were on to bigger and better things I see 2-14 and I'm pretty damned sad/mad about that.

EO...you are an example of the "typical Browns fan"...

Football is suddenly a one man game...IT'S ALL HOYER'S FAULT, right EO?

I recall one game, either the first or second game that Josh Gordon returned, Hoyer threw a pass to Gordon, putting it up so Gordon with his superior height and reach, could go up and get it...instead of giving an all out effort, Gordon made a half-assed attempt and the ball ended up going over Gordon's head and was intercepted.

To the average fan, it looked like a terrible pass by Hoyer, but anyone that knows a thing about football knows that INT was on Gordon. After the game, Hoyer took full responsibility for the INT and was ripped by the media and by the Hoyer Haters, the entire week, until Pettine finally got the nerve to say that Gordon was still working to shake off the rust...or some BS like that.

So now you Hoyer-Haters have what you wanted...Josh McCown. Some of you actually believe that McCown is a better QB than Hoyer, even though there is "nothing" in his 2014 record to indicate that he is superior to Hoyer in any way.

Here is what McCown accomplished last season, leading the Bucs to 1 win and 10 losses...

McCown ranked...
...28th in passing yardage..2206 yds
...39th in yds per game..201 yds per game
...31st in yds per attempt...6.7
...31st in completion %...56.3%
...29th in TD passes...11
...30th in 1st down completions
...8th worst Int total...14
...40th in Int%...1 int for every 23.356 passes
...32nd in passer rating...70.5%

This is the guy Haslam and Farmer wanted...not because he was so good...but IMO, because he is so bad that Manziel should not have a problem beating McCown out for the starting job.

If McCown is everything you professional scouts say he is, he should keep JFF on the bench...and McCown should have no problem leading this "much improved offense" to the playoffs since Hoyer got us so close last season.

Anything less that the "playoffs" will be a failure for the 2015 season.

News flash folks, he aint coming back. Let him go. Its ok. You can move on. My only regret is that he didnt take his cult with him when he left.

Your drunk will soon follow Mourg so enjoy it while you can.

Sad to say it was the only why the lazy drunk could get the job. Now that is truly sad.........................especially when you factor in how bad Hoyer was....

I suppose by seasons end you'll be following JF to the local bar. 2-14 here we come

Mac,
You defend Hoyer by saying he didn't lose all those games by himself but yet you post McCown's stats for last year only and say "look see how bad he is.", kind of a double standard isn't it. Do you realize that McCown played with probably the worst Oline in football last year? Their high priced free agent LT was just released after 1 year cause he stunk so bad. The Buccs Oline gave up 51 sacks last season and a league leading 124 QB hits plus they only managed to run for over 100yds in 5 games last year.

Say whatever u want. JOhnny will be our QB this year and Hoyer will be backing up Mallett. Hey no excuses from me if johnny throws a turd I will say he threw a turd. I wont be like the cultists blaming everyone but Hoyer for his horrible throws. My favorite was you guys defending that turd toss to Gabriel in the saints game and criticize Manziel for running for a TD lol OMG i swear its freaking hilarious.

While I agree that Hoyer would have played better with more support from the coaches and FO, the coaches and front office already had preconceived thoughts on Hoyer. They never liked him to begin with, and he wasn't doing anything on the field to change their minds. Asking them to really back the guy is probably unrealistic.

I know they didn't like Hoyer that was pretty damned obvious, but then why not cut him in camp? Why name him the starter and not support him? It makes no sense, you absolutely MUST support your starter if your to maximize team wins and their playing ability.

Look Hoyer, you me everyone knows that this is the big leagues and if you under perform its likely you will be riding the bench or out of the league, it seemed to me they were always waving that banner at Hoyer, and its a stupid thing to do if your about winning.

I don't think Hoyer's problem was under performing I think it was over performing, they wanted him to hold down the spot until the drunk was ready and he didn't cooperate so they hated him. In the end they started the drunk anyway and that worked out well didn't it?

I hope whomever they decide to run with gets the kind of support they need to be successful, but somehow I think they will likely do a repeat again and again.

I think the number one reason they hated Hoyer was he was a team leader, the players rallied around him and respected him they wanted the players to look to the drunk for that leadership. I just wonder too if their actions won't bite them squarely on the ass, I mean Hoyer was well liked and a team leader some guys in that locker room my not take to kindly to how Hoyer was treated, and it may be why we couldn't get guys we wanted back to re-sign with us??? Don't KNOW???

2-14 here we come, just great.

that's right.

They didn't like Hoyer so much, they hated him so much, they didn't support him so much, that not only did they name him the starter in preseason, but kept him the starter even after all the bum games he played.

Keep making logical post, guys.

At 7-4 you would have to say he was the BEST we had for quite a few moons and you don't turn your back on that unless or until you got something better. You can pick away all you want about the 4 loses but what about the 7 wins? All for a spoiled lazy drunk we spit on a guy who was NOT the savoir for sure but was and is to this day better then anything we do have. That may not be saying much I know, but when its the best you got it makes no sense to turn your back on it/him.

2-14 here we come oh joy.... Happy days are here again.

" we continue to evaluate the QB position and all positions on a week to week basis".

I do remember that...but that also was in response to relentless hounding by the press all about Manziel.

He didn't lie, I think its something they do with every position and player...oh wait he did say ALL POSITIONS. So for you to take that as a direct afront to Hoyer I think is incorrect. It is the truth what you said but I think your interpretation was incorrect. We are probably at an impasse on this - I respect your point of view. Just don't agree.

Mac...I won't bother to comment on your post directed to me. But thank you for teaching me about football I'm a better fan now for it. freaking heart pills have me so docile today!

I see it this way.

The QB position is different its not like all the other positions like golf 80% is between the ears and 20%n is skill. You want your starter to be confident and sure of himself. We knew we all knew and I assume management knew that Hoyer had the game to play. Not PM or TB ability but enough to get this team to 7-4 why not show some support? Like I said earlier Hoyer isn't the savior but he was the best we had at that time and if he were still on the roster he still would be the best we have.

These types of remarks fed the media and I'm sure made Hoyer feel like he was walking on egg shells. The QB position was handled poorly and is a prime example of what not to do at least publicly. You me and everyone knows that in the NFL if you don't play up to snuff your soon out of a job, so what was the purpose of saying what Pet said? How did it help Hoyer and the team. Sure its an honest statement but thats not the point the point is thats not how you handle the QB position.

IMO you show support, hell they even went so far as to say they called in some of the veteran players to ask their opinion on who should start, do you really think thats the way to handle a QB? It was as poorly handled a QB situation as I have seen, and its a story that has repeatedly reeled its head around here. Pick a guy and take his back ALL THE WAY. Not this we continue to evaluate the QB position like all positions from week to week and hey he said that after the Cincy game.

You need to think about that and set aside your like or dislike of the player and look at the situation and how it was handled going all the way back to the very start of the season. I know you may not remember but believe me I didn't like the QB handling thing at the break of camp and as the season wore on it got worse in spite of how well Hoyer played or didn't play. The best you could get was Brian played well today he will be our starter next week, we continue to evaluate the positions like all other positions on the team and that was what was said after the Cincy game.

It was mishandled and its to important to ignore IMO. Instead of gushing or even elation over Hoyers performance in the Cincy game thats the best he can muster in the way of support its things like that that clued everyone into the FO and management not liking the guy, it was an obvious lack of support and I think it hurt us in the end and it was poorly handled I expect better.

i thought we gave him the backing needed.
I do not think one of our coaches was pushing for Manziel. As for Haslam or Farmer, Pettine buffered all that. The rest was the Media Craze...when will Johnny Play.

The plan from the get go was not to play JM in 2014 AT ALL! I knew it from the beginning and Pettine seemed to follow what I knew was correct. Hoyer didn't light up Preseason to win outright but all knew he was the guy and Manziel needed more work. Except for the Media of course. They wanted the story/Circus to happen and continue!

Again the negatives happened and then he lost support but only till the last resort. 1 TD 8 INTs one of the worst QB runs we ever had and we had our share. Won 1 game and one of his worst games. After the Buffalo game supported Hoyer once again as the starter. I don't know what more you wanted from a team for a QB who had 7 years and 4 starts prior...how long do they stick with him? Would the players play for him...they would have but they did the last several games. It was Hoyer who blew it...I understand confidence and environment...I think the outside environment was hostile...not in side. unless Hoyer let the media shake him up??? But the Browns stayed in his corner till they couldn't any longer.

jmho

EO..

If the coaching staff knew that Manziel was going to turn in a performance that was worse than anything Hoyer had turned in up to the second Bengals game...do you believe the Browns would have given the start to Manziel?

...here is the point, our coaching staff should have known that Manziel was not putting in the work and that he was no where close to being ready to start against the Bengals...a team that Hoyer had QBed the Browns to a 23-3 win IN CINCIATTI JUST 5 WEEKS EARLIER!

I believe Pettine and Shanahan knew that Manziel had no business starting against the Bengals, with the Browns still having a chance to make the playoffs, with 6 losses. I believe that Pettine and Shanahan were good enough talent evaluators to tell management Hoyer should start against the Bengals, not the slacker Manziel.

Pettine and Shanahan were overruled by Haslam and Farmer, who had an emotional attachment to Manziel and wanted him to be the hero, in the last home game of the year, leading the Browns to the playoffs.

...could you imagine the jersey sales for Johnnie freaking football?

One would think that Haslam and Farmer would be humbled a bit after JFF lead the Browns to the worst ass-kicking of the year at the hands of the Bengals. I would think that our management might stay out of the coaching staff's business.

But no, the Haslam and Farmer continue their CON, getting rid of any real competition JFF would have for the starting job and signing "the worst" (his numbers below) free agent QB available, McCown.

Anyone wishing to challenge that comment...challenge this first...

Here is what McCown accomplished last season, leading the Bucs to 1 win and 10 losses...

McCown ranked...
...28th in passing yardage..2206 yds
...39th in yds per game..201 yds per game
...31st in yds per attempt...6.7
...31st in completion %...56.3%
...29th in TD passes...11
...30th in 1st down completions
...8th worst Int total...14
...40th in Int%...1 int for every 23.356 passes
...32nd in passer rating...70.5%

This is the guy Haslam and Farmer wanted...not because he was so good...but IMO, because he is so bad that Manziel should not have a problem beating McCown out for the starting job.

...and this is the way we run things in Cleveland.

Tell me EO...do expect the Browns to be 10-6 with Manziel starting?

OR, do expect the Browns to be 6-10 with Manziel starting?

If we go 6-10 with a legit medium to top tier QB I think I will do a backflip.

We may have the hardest schedule in the NFL this year

With FA, the Draft, injuries etc... no one knows how good teams are going to be from year to year, this league is so close that any team can fall or improve over an off season, look at the 49ers, they have lost a lot of talent in just one offseason, strength of schedule is based off last year, I don't believe the SOS theory, teams change to fast .... JMHO

If you're just trying to lower your expectations, ok..

But we are way too talented of a football team overall to only win 2 games.

You seem to make a lot of statements as if they are fact, concerning the inner workings of the front office.

Anonymous Sources™

You and I seem to be on the same page when it comes to the perception of the talent on this team. Plus, I am on record as noting that talent gaps are a myth in the NFL. The only gap for most teams exists at QB.

Where I will disagree slightly with you here, however, is this upcoming season. If McCown is the starter, talent everywhere else or not, I think we will be lucky to win 4 games and will actually be at 3 or 2. That's how important I think the QB position is.

And what I've noticed over the years is that the team will be compete early in the season, lose a lot of close games because the other team is better at QB, and there will be a point where the whole team just kind of checks out because they know no matter what effort they give, they just don't have it at the most important position. That is essentially the difference between winning and losing in the NFL.

If Manziel doesn't make some miraculous turnaround, we have to hope that McCown has some type of Gannon-esque finish to his career. Those are both long shots, IMO.

A Gannon/Brad Johnson type season from Josh McCown would be neat..

But all we really need is a Brian Hoyer type season.. that lasts longer than 9 games.

Yes our schedule is "tougher" but who thought we would beat New Orleans last season?

Division:
Baltimore (10-6) - Lost one of their best players on both sides of the ball (Ngata, T Smith)
Pittsburgh (11-5) - Lost their best coach, and who knows how good they are going to be year to year..
Cincinnati (10-5-1) - Is the Bengals.

Home:
Denver (12-4) - Depending on when it is scheduled, how healthy is Manning?
Tennessee (2-14) - Possibly the least talented team in the league.
Arizona (11-5) - QB is a big mystery.
San Francisco (8-8) - Had IMO a worst offseason than we did..
Oakland (3-13) - Is the Raiders.

Away:
Seattle (12-4) - We could get destroyed. Or they could have a hangover.
Kansas City (9-7) - That offense.. is just.. confusing.
San Diego (9-7) - Differences with Phillip Rivers.
St. Louis (6-10) - How good IS Nick Foles?
New York Jets (4-12)- Is the Jets.

You can question every team, every year.. I see no reason we can't be competitive in every game..

If the coaching staff knew that Manziel was going to turn in a performance that was worse than anything Hoyer had turned in up to the second Bengals game...do you believe the Browns would have given the start to Manziel?

If only this was a real question with discussion...
1st and foremost - this is where I thought Shanny blew it. his game plan flat out Sucked.

Nobody expected what they saw. Shanny comes away with clean hands...sorry. Bengals even stated they went and practiced all week looking at Manziel tape at A&M - pistol. Instead of playing our OFFENSE a run first look and scheme with play action. The kind we saw with Manziel in the Bills game.

Did the coaches think Manziel wasn't ready...I think so but Hoyer had gotten so bad there was no chance. They kept saying well Hoyers gives us the best chance and then all we needed was FIRST DOWNS...in a half to be able to win and we couldn't get them and the opportunities were there. I really don't blame Shanny too much for his regular O scheme. We had guys open - they came in we had 3 chances with long balls and wide open WRs and I never saw an NFL QB miss so badly...except usually when a 3rd stringer come in to play.

Putting in the work...Manziel was going through the motions...not good at all. I'm sure he justified it cause all he was doing was playing SCOUT O. When he was named starter..he was working hard and thought all in with Shanny's new scheme and game plan for the Bengals. Unfortunately it would have been a surprise to the Bengals if we went with our regular O. They were well planned for the spread O. Its bad when the Bengals out think us.

Over ruled...don't know how much that is true MAC. I think it was just a terrible position to be in - Cause the plan was never to start Manziel in 2014 unless there was injury. Hoyer not Haslam forced that move. That is the LOGICAL thing that transpired not this conspiracy stuff. I mean didn't you look at the games? Every week as the media was clamoring for Manziel to start our answers was always - Hoyer gives us the best chance to start...then the games would come and - did you not see the games? Does it take a rocket scientist to figure out why Manziel got the start with 3 games left. 7-6?

yeah it was about Jersey sales on the decision. Btw having him learn the way he should have would have kept him on the bench and make the time RIGHT to come in as a starter with success. That is how you sell his Jersey...once he came in and bombed his sales went down. Him on the bench his sales were still going strong. So your economic money thingy by the evil Haslam just doesn't fly.

continued the Con? come on really Aluminum foil hat time really MAC???

By getting rid of who Hoyer? Why did we make him an offer. He turned down and said he wanted to test what he was worth in the FA Market.

Actually at the time McCown was noted by the "EXPERTS" as one of the TOP available FA QBs out there.

Mac you don't impress me with selective stats...go with his 2013 stats. Still this is the best OL he will have with a WCO offense supposedly right up his alley...Do I wish him to start. NO WAY.

Manziel - if his head is on right and he puts everything into this season. Gets comfortable in our Offense. Who knows, you want me to predict records...do you know who you are talking about when you ask do I expect 10-6 or 6-10... I'm the freaking Homer 16-0 guy that is what I expect.

I have no clue what to expect from Manziel. I looked at him a lot and I thought he had greatness in him as a prospect. He is 22 and can still achieve that.

What I do know is our Defense will define our Team. 8-8 more or less will have to be with our QB play...if Decent...not great but decent. We can easily reach 10 wins. If terrible I would suspect 6 wins. But I'm sure we would not sit for terrible...we would change QBs.

But if Manziel beats out McCown which internally is not much pressure so its on execution of the offense. Which means Manziels Gets it...gets the reads - he is a magician in ball handling. What I expect is to be excited about Browns football.

We run things??? This is the 2nd year of our Regime...you don't know squat on HOW THEY RUN THINGS...SQUAT!!!

Ironically had Manziel not played after the Bills game, and Hoyer finished out the year 7-9..

We'd be going into 2015 optimistically. Think Manziel will be ok as the starter, no reason to look for any upgrade..

And Johnny would probably still be out drinking..

super...your perception of our schedule has nothing to do with team expectations. Asks Pettine if our schedule should be a legitimate excuse for losing... what do you believe he would say?

I realize we have some fans who are used to losing and see our 7 wins in 2014 as a successful season and are satisfied if the team does not improve 2015.

...I'm not one of those fans!

This team was capable of making the playoffs last year and should have. Our owner and his management team gave up on the season with 3 games left and a potential playoff birth on the line.

Getting back to my expectations for 2015...if this management team cannot improve the talent level on this roster enough push beyond our 7 wins in 2014, THEY SHOULD ALL BE FIRED!

Ask Haslam and Farmer if they are making personnel moves to improve this team...I'm positive they will both answer "YES".

The Browns fan base should expect nothing less than "improvement"...and that improvement must be reflected in W/L record.

I know thats who you are TAB, and thats who your being now.

Your the guy that see's a pile of lemons and smiles because your about to get lemon aide. I look at a pile of lemons and go bla lemons. Your trying to bring logic to it, but in truth and IMO their is no logic to be brought to it, it is what it is. Dysfunctional is the word that best describes this FO and staff, sorry to say. The only hope I have and the best spin that I can put on it is this.

They didn't want Hoyer here because he was the team leader they want JF to be, that along with the fact that the fans aren't going to sit back and watch as JF single handedly flushes our season down the toilet, they would as you and I both know be calling for Hoyer, with McCown we pretty much know we are done, so it will be like might as well stick it out with JF and see if he can improve and if he does great if he doesn't we get the 1st pick in the draft a lose win sort of deal.

I can actually get down with that obvious plan because eventually we get a shoot at a top prospect and like others have said we are crap without a QB which is something I have said for years. So it becomes sink or swim with JF and I think will sink not based on what he did in college but what he has actually shown as a pro. Spoiled, lazy, drunk is my description of him and he will decide if that perspective changes. Like it or not you can't homer away that. And I think you have to set aside homer for just a moment then the shine wears off this FO and Pet.

The only good I can see is they can get and do better. On the player side they need to draft character guys that hate losing. SAT

On the coaching side they need to follow thru with their word and hold ALL players accountable those words need to pack meaning.

They need to back their starter at QB 1000% publicly and privately, Bernie said it and I have said it for some time now. We all get the part about if you don't play well but publicly and team wise it has to be full steam ahead with your starter.

No more owners and team presidents in the film room everyone do their job and only their job.

Team Owner monitor everyone to make certain they are doing their job and helping each other do their jobs.

GM get talent that fits the HC scheme, set the 53 man roster.

HC coach the team work with the GM to identify what you need in concert with your staff.

The most important thing though do your job and just your job, no more texting, no more film break down, no more playing favorites with certain players and their poor behavior.

I don't hear the FO nor the staff nor the owner talking about these things but I sure as hell hope and pray they know where and when they went wrong and fix it.

IMO you can't homer those things away, or act like they didn't happen and it didn't matter, it all matters if it effect the team on the field and some of their action did and even the homer in me can't excuse it away. It's a problem that runs deeper then how poorly they handled the QB position lets just put it that way. These folks got a lot of work to do beyond just the talent on the field.

JMHO, but kill homer for a few minutes the dysfunctional will come to you when you do.

1. behind closed doors or in front of the press? I guarantee there would be two different answers. our QB situation is a mess. We have nothing of value on our DL We need an OLB a CB or two a RG a FB and a TE... did i mention our starting QB is in rehab?

if our own problems weren't enough.

Here is our schedule:

2 for each: Baltimore, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh,

Denver, Kansas City, San Diego, St. Louis, Seattle, NY Jets Oakland, Arizona, San Francisco, Tennessee.

At least we are not playing buffalo this year.

EO..your argument and your creditability went down the crapper when you started with a lame-ass excuse like this...IT WAS SHANNY FAULT..that was the reason Manziel played so poorly.





EO...this is a partial answer to your lengthy post...

Concerning the "quote" above... That is an honest answer and I stopped right there, before "but"...and before you started on with lame excuses again. Given what we know from the texting and the subject of that texting, management was trying to exert pressure upon the coaching staff to play JM, even though he was not ready. Who knew Manziel better, Shanahan and Pettine...or Haslam and Farmer?

Haslam and Farmer got their wish, to start Manziel over Hoyer and it cost our players and the entire franchise a shot at making the playoffs. This is why the best franchises, those who win, year after year, such as the Steelers...their management does not stick their noses in their coach's business. Managements job is to provide talent and allow the coaches the freedom to decide who should play.

Teams that are perennial losers, such as the Redskins, have a management structure that is loosely defined, with owners who cross the line, substituting their judgement for the coach's judgement...the very coaches they hired to coach the players and determine who should start.

The end result is a franchise that is a loser, constantly firing and hiring coaching staffs every 2 or 3 years. If the Browns go 4 and 12 this year with Manziel as our starter, will Haslam blame the very people he hired to coach his team and pretend that his hands are pure and clean ???

Was it the coaches who didn't get the job done...or was it the owner and his surrogates who substituted their judgement for the judgement of the very coaches they hired to evaluate talent and decide who should start/play?

Just how long Haslam and Farmer had been hounding the coaching staff is not known. I was hoping the NFL would release the text messages with dates and time, so fans could get some idea of what was going on behind the scenes. BTW, anyone that believes Farmer was texting on his own behalf with the owner setting beside him..get real.

On this claim that Hoyer was playing so badly, Hoyer's worst performance was better than Manziel performance against the Bengals...anyone dispute this?

I believe the total sucktitude of Hoyer reached a point where the coaching staff was willing to try anything that could provide a spark. And so they did.....

pit...do you believe our coaching staff knew that Manziel was not prepared to start against the Bengals?

Do you believe Shanahan and Pettine would have endorsed the move to start Manziel against a team Hoyer had QBed the Browns to a 24-3 WIN just 5 weeks earlier, in Cinci?

Had the front office waited and allowed Hoyer to start the game against the Bengals...and if the Browns lost...the entire offseason situation would have be easier to stomach for our players.

There would be no feelings on the team that our front office interfeared, forcing Manziel upon the coaching staff, leading to the Browns suffering their worst defeat of the season 30-0, which cost the entire team a shot at the playoffs.

Looking at Manziel's performance against the Bengals, if our coaching staff didn't realize that Manziel should not be starting...they should all be fired.

The Browns coaching staff was overruled by our front office, forced to start Manziel with a very predictable outcome.

You care to debate Hoyer's "sucktitude"...list the games where you believe Manziel would have made a difference, winning the games for the Browns.

I believe that Hoyers entire mechanics and effectiveness had deteriorated to the point that they were willing to do almost anything to try and find a spark to win games.

If after watching the five weeks since that Bengals win you did not see a complete breakdown in Hoyers play, mechanics and footwork, I can see your points. But that's what I saw.

I don't blame the coaching staff for trying anything possible at their disposal to try to turn things around with anything they could try.

Hoyer was done.

In addition, JF shook up the pressure pot when he came in on his only TD scoring drive and looked *ok*. I don't blame the staff for playing him. Hoyer was basically a "it can't get much worse than this" ordeal in my opinion.

Heck, I think if they could go back in time, maybe they'd have started Connor Shaw the entire season.

Pit...you care to debate Hoyer's "sucktitude"...

...LIST THE GAMES where you believe Manziel would have made a difference, winning the games for the Browns.

Fixed it for ya...

Whether or not someone else could of played better doesn't change that fact that the person that did play, did not play well..

[/quote]

I believe that Hoyers entire mechanics and effectiveness had deteriorated to the point that they were willing to do almost anything to try and find a spark to win games.
[/quote]
I just wonder what his QB COACH was doing during this time ? You know, that JF fan guy.

I believe that Hoyers entire mechanics and effectiveness had deteriorated to the point that they were willing to do almost anything to try and find a spark to win games.
[/quote]
I just wonder what his QB COACH was doing during this time ? You know, that JF fan guy. [/quote]

Many have asked that same question.. I assume one of the reasons he was let go

He was let go because the locker room preferred him over Johnny. And we can't let "giving the team a better chance to win" get in the way of "justifying our draft picks," can we?

I don't believe Mamziel would have made a difference. The coaching staff was hoping that Hoyer would bounce back to where THEY wouldn't have to find out if JFF would make a difference. But the sucktitude of Hoyer forced them into trying anything at their disposal.

You're really preaching to the choir in a way here. In some ways not so much. I thought Manziel sucked when he played. There's really no debating that. The only problem comes down to the fact that the way Hoyer was playing, he would lose too.

Once Hoyer completely fell apart, they were willing to try anything, and they did.