DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The QB Situation in 2016-2017

I posted this on another thread, but no one responded. I think it is an important issue and that it warrants conversation. Honest conversation.



So.........how many of you feel comfortable that the Browns are going to resolve the QB position this year? How many of you are afraid that we will be in this very same position again after next season? Would most of you at least admit that it is very concerning?

What would you have them do to solve the position this year?

I think it is very obvious that we are trying to do something, whether or not we can is a different question.

Below is our QB situation, past, present and future...

Good question? Maybe trade our 2 #1's and pick Mariota and hope he is the 2nd coming Otto Graham

It is amazing how people actually work at making it impossible to having an intelligent conversation around here.

look man, there were quite a few of us who wanted Teddy to be here in cleveland.

a few wanted manziel, a few wanted Carr.

you even said, and i remember it clearly, even though you wanted Teddy, you wouldn't be disappointed if we got manziel, because he has a huge upside, even with the potential of busting hard.

Most of us were concerned about the transition to the NFL. even though the signs were there, i still didn't think we'd have an epic meltdown of this magnitude with Manziel.

personally, i'm not gonna fault the FO for that. I never thought Carr would play better than manziel either. Hell, some of us were on the other boards when we was laughing at miami for taking Tannehil at 8, and now that looks like a pretty solid decision.

For all we know, Teddy could've came to cleveland and bombed just as hard as manziel. Teddy happened to go into a good situation in Minny. There's no telling how he would've done here. or carr, or bortles.

What i do fault the FO for, and this is of course IMO, that we decided to get McCown, instead of a guy like Josh Freeman who still had potential and who is still YOUNG. THAT'S what i would've done. Or if i'm going to get an aging QB, i would've brought in Vick, at least have something to be exciting to watch as we tank the season away.

Vick + Dawg pound = most glorious troll job, ever.

anyways, Personally, i still think we should give up both our first rounders for Winston. if the bucs entertained the idea.

that dude could be the messiah for our squad. dude is a pocket passer with scrambling abilities, can read defenses, and he would've had 2 good backs and a BOSS o-line to boot. our WR aren't scrubs.

look, JM failed. we got it. nobody is sitting here denying that. My problem? Hoyer wasn't that good either. sure, he's better than anybody on our roster currently, but so what? he'll consistently have us picking in the 12-19 range. great. we still weren't going to win any playoff games with this guy.

people on this board stay crying over spilled milk. clean it up, and try again. That's all we can do.

Not only is it very concerning, as of now, it's by far the most likely scenario. You know often terms are changed to sound better, but it is what it is. What people used to call a "temporary Band-Aid" at the QB position, people now often call a bridge QB. I mean bridge does sound SO much better, but it's not. Few if any have much confidence in McCown and really, who can blame them.

While there's a possibility JFF does a complete 180 is dependent "only on rehab". If his dependency issue is the sole reason for his woes, then improvement may come. But there's many reasons that would indicate that he's simply not going to transfer to the NFL, sober or not.

If I were to lay odds, the most favorable odds I could give would be 80/20 saying we'll be in this exact same situation next year. The situation could change. They could still yet come up with an answer not on the roster. But I don't really see that happening and I can only go with the situation at hand.

I agree w/some of your takes and disagree w/some others. That's cool. Let's just talk w/out all the freaking nonsense.

Swish, I don't think it is crying over spilled milk. I think it is recognizing history and being wary of it repeating itself. I also lost a lot of faith in this regimes abilities to evaluate QBs. That is relevant, not crying over spilled milk.

I did say that JM was my #2 guy. I admit that quite often. How many times do I have to admit it? Most guys NEVER admit to being wrong. I have admitted it at least 3 times in the past couple of days and numerous times before that.

Now, I think you know that there is no way that I wanted JM over Teddy. I also said that JM was a boom or bust guy. But, in the end..........I was wrong. See how easy it is to say that?

I do think that the Browns have the ability to dig deeper into prospects character than average guys like you and me and so yes, I do blame them for not knowing how screwed up JM was.

I do not agree that Teddy would have failed here. Cleveland had more offensive talent than that Minni did. Their OL is putrid and Charles Johnson was their best WR. Yeah, the same CJ we cut. They also lost the best RB in football. Not a great situation for a rookie QB.

Freeman signed w/somebody this week. I don't care for him. Great talent. Ten cent head.

I see what you are saying about Winston, but his character issues concern me. I am not saying I am right, but they do concern me.

Vick? Nah, I think he is done.

We disagree on some of this stuff, but at least it is a civil conversation and not the usual BS that most resort to.

Look man........whether or not anyone wants to admit it or not......the real fear is that it is very likely that we are sitting in the same position again next year in regards to not having a qb. I think that is significant and people making stupid posts about "what shall they do..." is not going to change that.

Good post.

I think this is what it comes down to, Pit:

If the Browns are actually counting on JM or McCown being the guy, the odds of success are probably even less than 20%. There is too much to overcome. It can be done, but it would be a miracle story and they would make a movie out of it. It would be like Rudy.

With that said, the Browns might still do something before this upcoming season. If they do, this thread is meaningless.

Look, we have an aging team and I think the QB situation needs fixed quickly. We could have fixed had we drafted Bridgewater last year. We passed on him for a guy w/an alcohol and maybe even a drug problem. We're paying the price. If Manziel bombs this year and we are forced to draft yet another QB or make a huge trade for one........well.......it ain't pretty.

Not sure how more people don't get that?

You said:



I said:



Is that not a legit question?

Will you please take your crap somewhere else? Thanks.

I legitimately don't know what the problem is.

If there is no solution, how do we find a solution.

I think 2015 will be a wasted season and we will pick in the top 3 in the 2016 draft. And we will draft a QB.

We have been over the possible solutions over and over. We don't need to spend all of our time talking about Teddy, Carr, Jimmy G, Hoyer, Foles, Bradford.

The reality is that as of right now, we are putting our faith in JM or JM. That is a risky proposition and that it is very likely that we will once again NOT have our QB after this upcoming season.

Please stop trying to hijack the thread by feigning ignorance. You are just being difficult.

If you are happy w/how the Browns have handled the QB situation, say so. If you just want to derail yet another thread w/your petulant rhetoric, so be it.

true.

here's my thing. And i'll think deep on this. i might be completely out of line, or maybe there's some truth to it.

i don't like how the FO and coaches seem to devalue the positions that actually have to touch the ball.

I love having a good defense. I love having a strong o-line.

but when it comes to our RB's, QB's, and WR, its like.....eh, whatever.

RB's: i get it. there's a lot of guys out there that will get the job done, so i'll leave that alone right now.

WR: Before Tab has another epic meltdown on WR(poking fun man, don't have a heart attack). look, i love Hawk and Gabriel. Those guys balled out. Gordon threw a wrench into the system because of his suspension, but so did Cameron with his injuries. it's like, if Cameron stays healthy, if Gordon isn't suspended, if mack doesn't go down, I dunno if you even make this thread Vers. Or have the threads that myself and others have made regarding the QB position. We NEED talent at the WR/TE position. posters say all we want about SB winners and such, but we need to worry about having a winning season first, making the playoffs first. and teams making the playoffs have BOSSES at the WR/TE spot.

hell, the patriots just won the SB, and they have GRONK. Edelman isn't a slouch, either. We need guys that make DB's respect the pass.



QB: if gordon and cameron doesn't have their issues and plays at the beginning of the season, it be Hoyer's squad. or at least the off season would've been similar to San Diego: Brees plays lights out, gets traded, Rivers takes over. Instead, insert Hoyer and Manziel. The problem is, we are looking for guys to carry the QB, not the other way around.

get what i mean? We are looking to build squads like the 2000 ravens or 2002 bucs. you can't even say 2013 Seahawks, because is, and has SHOWN, that he can carry that squad if need be before. The dude is an elite QB.

Why isn't our FO looking for a QB that can be our lebron james? Thats why i want to go after Winston so much. Sure, manziel was a "winner" too. but Winston lost ONE damn game his entire college career, and that was in the first ever playoff system. He's one the Heisman, he's one a NC. The dude looks like an AFC North QB.

but it seems like our FO/coaches are trying to outsmart themselves all the time with our Skill position players. i don't like that, man. We need talent. not second tier and lower guys., it always seems like we're trying to catch lightening in the bottle, instead of getting some proven vikings on the squad.

just my opinion.

I think that your scenario is very likely.

How do people feel about that?

How do you think guys like Joe Thomas, Whitner, Mack, and Whitner feel about that?

How confident are you that Farmer will pick the right qb this time?

These are serious questions that will not go away just because some people want to pretend they don't exist.

Interesting thoughts.

I do have to say the Pats have Brady and that is way more important than Gronk and Edelman.

The Winston thing is interesting. He's intriguing. He scares me, though. I get a very similar feeling about him as I did JM last year. He could be a great, great QB to lead us to the promised land. Huge BOOM! On the other hand, he has bust potential. That scares me.

Not saying I am right.......just a feeling.

Brady is #1. i just didn't think i needed to mention him cause we all know if there's no brady, there's no 4 rings most likely.

Winston, i really think dude needs a change of scenery. I don't think he's in manziel's league at all with regards to that.

this isn't directed at you Vers:

people can think what they want, the fact is, if you believe in the court of the law, then dude was innocent with that rape stuff. the crab legs stuff? that ends when he gets drafted. NFL teams won't even give him a reason to do that, as he will be most likely babied in that regard.

but the dude isn't partying like manziel is, or hanging out with famous people every waking moment like manziel.

on the field? i think he's legit. i think he's better than Mariota.

Right.

So we are to discuss the "The QB Situation" without talking about possible solutions? Got it.

It will be very hard to answer this question, "How many of you feel comfortable that the Browns are going to resolve the QB position this year?" without talking about solutions. Do you just want each person to say, "Me" and then not post anything else. If so, the K-9 Consensus might be a better forum for this question.



Right.

What did I do to take attention away from this? If you don't wish to respond that is fine, if you do wish to respond send me a private message so that we don't take away from thread.



I don't think that is the question at hand. But, no, I am not happy with the Browns QB situation.



I am sorry for what you perceive as my petulant rhetoric, I was only following the theme of whoever started this thread with the above questions.

I am going to try this again:

QB situation in 2016-2017:

1. Pray that Manziel somehow gets his poo together AND plays well.

2. Draft a QB.

3. Hope that a veteran QB, that is actually good, somehow becomes a free agent AND he signs with us.

Those are the only three solutions that I can even possibly see, with #1 being the least likely.

I agree with Eve. I think this will be a "mail-it-in" year so we can draft either Connor Cook, Cardale Jones, or Christian Hackenburg next April. I love what Cardale Jones did for 3 games last year, but I don't know what that means as far as being an NFL QB. I think Connor Cook has a lot in common with Andrew Luck except not as mobile. I've never seen Hackenburg (Penn State) play, at least that I recall, so I don't know jack about him except that the media know-it-alls love him. Unless I'm totally wrong about McCown and/or Manziel though, this year's a wash.

If we stick with McCown and Manziel, we're going to tank this season and take a QB high next year.

Hope we get it right.

This is the same rationalizations people made for Manziel.

The problem isn't that he stole crab legs or acted like an ass in the student union.

The problem is that there is zero doubt that after the rape accusation, at least a dozen people sat him down and said 'get it together'. And he kept on doing the same.

Only difference between him and Johnny is that Jameis has the potential to do really well in the NFL coming out of college.

The case never went to court. The complaint was filed, but the victim failed to pursue the case (it has been suggested that the agency handling the case influenced that decision.) The media got wind of the case almost a year later, by which time Winston had a lawyer and several team-mates swore on a stack of bibles Winston was with them (something not part of the case originally.) The prosecutor tabled the case because it wasn't going to win. That is not the same as innocent.

Pretty much sums it up. Only problem is, as unlikely as #1 is, that's the one scenario we need the most.

I'd like to have confidence in drafting a QB, but the same people who drafted Manziel will be drafting the next QB, too.

I wouldn't say I've got a lot of confidence in the QB situation this year, but I think the FO is doing the right thing given the options. I liked Hoyer, but he had to go. It seemed like he might have re-tweaked his knee and tried to play through it because he was worried about losing his job to Manziel and never getting the opportunity to get it back. The second half of the season, he was awful. Even when he was getting completions, they weren't placed very well. People complain about the team not showing confidence in Hoyer, but I think the problem was more Hoyer not being confident in himself.

I think we've got to give Manziel the majority of the snaps this offseason and see what he can do. Supposedly he flashed at times in practice last year, but obviously it didn't translate to the field. The starters were clearly used to playing with Hoyer and despite the plays being "from the same playbook" the ones given to Manziel weren't ones practiced as much as others. Our o-line was a sieve and our undersized receivers were much better at double moves than slants/quick routes. We've got to throw last year out and use this year to find out what we've got. Let's see what he can do with a healthy o-line and running game, and, hopefully, with some bigger receivers (like he was used to at A&M with Mike Evans).

I don't see McCown as our starter, but he showed in Chicago he can fill in for an injured starter and manage things. With Manziel's body type/play style, injuries are something to be considered. McCown seems to have less ego than Hoyer so hopefully the dynamic can be more pushing each other than fighting each other.

I don't want us to trade up for Mariota or Winston. The combination of cost and questions doesn't seem worth it. I'd rather stand pat or take a late round flyer or UFA type like Bonner from CSU-Peublo or Austin Dodge from SOU. We could be sitting in the same situation next year, but that's the way the NFL works. Stud QBs are the most valuable and rarest commodity. I think Manziel's chances of getting to that Stud level are similar, if lesser, than the top two QBs this year without another giant investment. If Manziel does bomb, we'll have a shot at one of the top QBs next year without mortgaging the future by trading up.

There is a dearth of talent at the QB position in the NFL.

The front office chose to select Manziel over Bridgewater. I wasn't crazy about the move, but I said that he has the biggest "boom" potential, as well as the biggest bust potential. So far it looks like bust wins out. Who knows what will happens with him from here on, and if whatever happens will be in Cleveland?

Bridgewater had concerns going into the draft. That is why he fell the way he did. He looked OK last year, and we'll see how he develops from here.

We were never a player for either Foles or Bradford. The Eagles and the Rams each reportedly wanted a starting QB in return, and that appears to be true, given the trade that took place.

Freeman was actually out of football. I did not realize that. He started 3 games for thew Bucs in 2013, and was out of football last year. I could have sworn that he was in Tampa Bay last year, but apparently I was wrong. He was also released by the Giants last year, and they preferred to keep Curtis Painter and Ryan Nassib. Hardly a ringing endorsement there. Anyway, I thought that he might be worth a look, but given the situation, I can see why the Browns preferred a guy who actually played last year.

Hoyer took a minimal deal as a backup in Houston. He was not in great demand as a QB.

Man, I look around the league, and there are few great choices. Maybe Bridgewater would have been a good pick for us, or maybe he would have failed here. He was decent in Minnesota, but is hardly a certain superstar. He had 5 games of less than 190 yards. He was carefully protected for a good part of the year. (as he would have been here as well) He tore up the Falcons and the Jets, neither of whom had a secondary last year. He had a decent, though hardly overwhelming rookie year, but he did show promise. It will be interesting to see how his career develops.

I have no idea what veteran QB we could target during or after the draft. Maybe we target a young veteran, similar to the Texans making a trade for Ryan Mallett last year. I don't know. All of the options we will have are questionable, at best.

My preference is to use a mid round pick on Sean Mannion. He is a big bodied QB, with a strong arm, and experience in a pro style offense, He does not have great running ability, but he appears to be able to sense pressure and move effectively in the pocket. He is my favorite for the Browns, and think that he would be a good fit in this offense.

That said ..... I have no idea what direction we will go. I expect that McCown will have a decent year, similar to the year Hoyer had last year. He will be in a limited offense, and will not have to be the engine, just a part of it. We will be a run heavy team, and I think that he can be acceptable in such an offense.

There are no easy answers for the position. I just hope that we find one soon.

I don't feel comfortable, but I also don't agree with the idea we are going to tank the season.


Look, there is no going back so I don't see any point in hashing out why we took Manziel over someone else. He is the guy we have.


So...we can either think he is done, or we can think he might still be the player we hoped he might be.

I agree Vers, if I felt the guy done and had no hope, I sure wouldn't be looking at McCown and have a very good feeling about the future. The thing is that I haven't closed my mind on Manziel.

No doubt he brought a lot of baggage and year 1 was anything but good. Even fair for that matter.


There is no fixing it for this year unless Manziel starts to play football. Thats the only real way to fix it in the short term unless one of the other young guys on the team or some player we might draft in a few weeks somehow steps forward.

Indeed, it's concerning. McCown draws many deserved doubts and skepticism as does all else we have. Lewis, Manziel and Shaw and truthfully, Shaw is the only one that I see with some hope but even that, seen the deep ball and it has no mustard on it and hangs.

The issue is, is there a solution or fix available this year? Free agency or the draft? I don't think there is.

If I'm going to guess, out of McCown, Manziel, Lewis and Shaw that...

1. We draft someone like Petty or Grayson.

2. We let them all battle at camp but come regular season, two qb's likely to get axed or perhaps a combo of practice squad and axed. Maybe even more a clean up there, I can't see the staff hogging more than three spots on the final roster for quarterbacks.

All JMO

Pretty good discussion.

I have been thinking about how the Browns have handled the QB situation for quite awhile now. I truthfully don't see much of a plan other than give the keys to Johnny and hope that he can drive us to victory lane.

Maybe that is a good plan, but I don't think the odds of it succeeding are very good.

My concerns:

--I didn't realize that JM's parents were so vocal about their son's problems. That means that this has been going on for quite some time.

--I think it is hard to come out of rehab and stay clean. It will be even more difficult because Johnny is such a huge public figure. Can you imagine how many people are hanging onto him?

--Traveling from city to city w/a ton of cash at your disposal and people who want to party w/you is not exactly the best environment for a recovering addict.

--Manziel's teammates laid down when he was named the starter. It wasn't just Manziel who sucked against the Bengals. The entire team quit.

--I did say I liked JM in the draft, but man, I don't think I ever witnessed a professional qb look worse than he did. Ever! That really concerned me. He was completely overwhelmed. He looked tiny. He looked scared. He couldn't outrun anyone. He couldn't put enough mustard on his throws. He didn't make good reads. It went on and on and on.

It's my feeling that the Browns have botched their search for a qb. I could be wrong for a couple of reasons:

1. Johnny shines.

2. They are not done and will pick a great qb in the draft.

Both could happen, but I don't see either as very realistic. Do you?

I think JM gets traded on draft day. Call it a hunch. I don't think the Mort report was random. I think it was setting the stage.

It may depend on how the draft shakes out. Can the Browns land a Petty, Grayson, Mannion?

If so, JM is as good as gone for a second or third day pick.

Sorry Vers there just is no short term solution that I am aware of. The press keeps saying that the Browns may continue to pursue Bradford, but I think that ship has sailed and Bradford would retire before reporting although I don't know that to a dead certainty.

Having said that and having looked over the roster at what we do have (I threw up in my mouth) I think the plan is to try to get someone in here if they can (doubtful) if not they ride Johnny for the season and see if he turns the corner. If he turns the corner then great if not we are positioned to pick at the top of next years draft. As far as I can see that is the plan.

I'm not being critical just really stating the facts, and its a viable plan but getting to the top of the draft is going to be painful. They really have few options at this point and as painful and distasteful as it is I see it as our only choice at this point. That can change but I view it as highly unlikely, we are stuck for this season.

This season is the here's Johnny show and if the show is anything like the pre views God help us all.

Mort's report is the one thing that is nagging me, like an itch that can't be scratched.

Logically, it seems that the Browns have made all their moves in an attempt to hand JM the job. However, Mort says that is almost certainly out of Cleveland's plans. Mort is a respect guy. It's not like he is the type to make things up.

So.......I don't know.

So many here won't even entertain the thought that Manziel has anything to offer. He crashed and burned in 2014, and that is the end of the story.

1) He was the very definition of hubris. He was a natural success in HS and college, and assumed he would be as a pro. His focus was not on being a backup QB, but on living a celebrity lifestyle. He was embarrassing on the field, and the party invitations stopped coming.

2) He has football talent, the question is can he make the transition from the play style he had in college to a more controlled NFL style and exactly how good is his natural talent. The first step was to get his ego down to size. Checking himself into rehab, if it was honest and not just following advise, is a huge ego deflator. He has to admit he is not in control, he has demons that left unchecked, control him. Rehab is learning to keep those demons in check.

3) Coming out of rehab, he has to focus on something to keep those demons at bay, so immersing himself in football is his best option. He has to regain a sense of self worth without alcohol/drugs, and proving his worth on the football field will be his obvious path to redemption.

4) The OTA's start on April 20, the draft is 10 days later. That gives the Browns 10 days to determine if he is committed to being the best he can be, i.e. coachable. If he is, he is probably the best QB we have. If not, then some move to improve via trade or draft pick is in order.

Vers, I dont think anyone is saying our QB situation is ideal, however I dont think there was anything they could have done this off-season to correct it. Hoyer or McCown, one or the other I honestly dont really think there is much a difference IMO Mccown is a little more talented but to each their own. Im not trying to debate those two right now, I am just saying that there is not much else the FO could have done with the FA that were available.

Please tell me what you would have done differently (not being smart or rude I am just curious)

I think it's pretty clear... Manziel has 2015 to show he's worth waiting for or they get a new guy in the first round in 2016. In the meantime, McCown takes the snaps.

I have answered this a thousand times. I have tried not to bring it up because there will now be a handful of posters telling me to NOT bring up the past.

However, since you and others keep asking----------I would have drafted Teddy. Plain and simple. We would NOT be having this conversation if we had drafted Teddy.

There would be no QB conversations in the draft forum or this forum. We would be talking about getting him weapons. The FO made a huge error when they passed on TB for JM. That mistake is manifesting itself by multiplying like a disease.

Now, I don't want to make this thread about Teddy. However, I can't accept that the Browns have not had any choices and our just victims of bad luck.

Alright steve. What's your feeling on that strategy?

I'm not sure Manziel has all of 2015 to prove anything.. I think he just has the OTAs to show he has his head on straight. If not.. the team will go into the draft looking to pull a rabbit out of the hat. No one wants to tank the season waiting for little Johnny to grow up. There are too many other professionals on the team to just throw away. Not the ideal situation, but it is what it is..

Manziel either comes into the OTAs showing he is ready to work and be all in.. or the Browns go into the draft trying to deal.